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Nezichiend
12-22-2009, 07:48 PM
With people just being able to chug pots to beat quests I think we would benefit from:

A long timer on the use of mnomic potions!
This could be around 5 mins, maybe 4, something in there.

This will prevent under equip'd groups being able to do high lvl quests just by chugging down pots and using no skill, just green to beat the adventure.

Really, anyone can beat any quest (well maybe not ANYONE in ANY quest... but you get the idea), with enough mana potions.
This would prevent that and require more skill/ tactics to beat an adventure.

DISADVANTAGES:
With any change there ARE some downsides, but I think all in all that these following do not outweigh the benefits.

- prevents people from solo'ing high lvl raids (or duo or trio... or w/e)
- would make DQ2 Epic more challenging

I am sure that there are more but those are the main ones I can think of off the bat.

They could make the bauble & the epic ring of spellstoring on timer as well as lower level mana potions on the same universal cooldown as any other potency of mana potion (they already have the code for this with summon monster).

Atenhotep
12-22-2009, 07:53 PM
no

Letrii
12-22-2009, 07:54 PM
With the recent addition of cheap mana pots to the DDO Store, and anyone being able to be a quest just by gulping down mana pots, I think it is time for...

A long timer on the use of mnomic potions!
This could be around 5 mins, maybe 4, something in there.

This will prevent under equip'd groups being able to do high lvl quests just by chugging down pots and using no skill, just green to beat the adventure.

Really, anyone can beat any quest (well maybe not ANYONE in ANY quest... but you get the idea), with enough mana potions.
This would prevent that and require more skill/ tactics to beat an adventure.

DISADVANTAGES:
With any change there ARE some downsides, but I think all in all that these following do not outweigh the benefits.

- prevents people from solo'ing high lvl raids (or duo or trio... or w/e)
- would make DQ2 Epic more challenging

I am sure that there are more but those are the main ones I can think of off the bat.

They could make the bauble & the epic ring of spellstoring on timer as well as lower level mana potions on the same universal cooldown as any other potency of mana potion (they already have the code for this with summon monster).

Why you trying to reduce Turbine's income?

Unreliable
12-22-2009, 07:54 PM
1. Cheap mana pots are gone now. Back to 10 @ 250 pts.

2. No =)

Atenhotep
12-22-2009, 07:55 PM
oh wait .. ok, timer on mana pots, then timers on weapons too. say, if you don't use your greensteel min II every .. say four or five minutes it disappears, that will prevent noobs from just hacking their way thru quests.










/end sarcasm

Nezichiend
12-22-2009, 07:57 PM
oh wait .. ok, timer on mana pots, then timers on weapons too. say, if you don't use your greensteel min II every .. say four or five minutes it disappears, that will prevent noobs from just hacking their way thru quests.


Weapons are not consumable.

Atenhotep
12-22-2009, 07:59 PM
Weapons are not consumable.

Sure they are.

Hokiewa
12-22-2009, 08:03 PM
What's the true motivation behind this post?

If your going to use the consumable arguement then feel free to toss in heal scrolls as well.........

Nezichiend
12-22-2009, 08:04 PM
Sure they are.

Last time I checked, when you equip (or use if you may) a weapon it doesn't go *poof*.

Mana potions do.

If you think about it, it really wouldn't be THAT bad, how many pots do you use per shrine in a hard raid, maybe 3 (possibly more)?
If you are using more than that per shrine your group didn't really earn that victory (like if you yourself drank 10 or something ridiculous).
So how long is 1 battle, ~ 10 mins?
So you could drink around 2 or 3 pots in that time.

Nezichiend
12-22-2009, 08:06 PM
What's the true motivation behind this post?

If your going to use the consumable arguement then feel free to toss in heal scrolls as well.........

Heal scrolls have a 6 second timer, making spamming them not too worthwhile, cause they really don't heal alot.

Spamming heal scrolls doesn't make one beat a raid, but chugging mana pots can.

Hokiewa
12-22-2009, 08:10 PM
Heal scrolls have a 6 second timer, making spamming them not too worthwhile, cause they really don't heal alot.

Spamming heal scrolls doesn't make one beat a raid, but chugging mana pots can.

Ridiculous. Regardless, as another poster stated it's counter-intuitive to Turbine's business model. I find plenty of pots without resorting to buying them from the store, but I could care less if people do.

Why do you care? I suspect it's ego

Atenhotep
12-22-2009, 08:11 PM
Heal scrolls have a 6 second timer, making spamming them not too worthwhile, cause they really don't heal alot.

Spamming heal scrolls doesn't make one beat a raid, but chugging mana pots can.

You're right, I see your point - it sucks to complete a raid.

Nezichiend
12-22-2009, 08:14 PM
You're right, I see your point - it sucks to complete a raid.

If you can only complete raids by drinking pots and your join date is dec 06...

2-3 per shrine means in ToD you can drink about 6-9, the last fight can be longer than that on higher difficulties, and you may not drink any against Nythirios (spelling? :p). Not too light IMO.

Atenhotep
12-22-2009, 08:17 PM
I run epic quests with zero mana pots.

How many are you using?

Do you have a cleric? Why do you hate clerics?

What do you have against clerics healing you?

Did you throw little Billy down the Well?

Angelus_dead
12-22-2009, 08:22 PM
With people just being able to chug pots to beat quests I think we would benefit from:
A long timer on the use of mnomic potions!
This could be around 5 mins, maybe 4, something in there.
I have previously suggested a cooldown of 1 second per 1 or 2 spellpoints gained. That would mean the total timer of 3-5 minutes, which would greatly improve multiple aspects of gameplay. Not only would fights that are supposed to be difficult become more challenging, but it would also remove the pressure for a spellcaster in an underpowered group from dumping 10s of potions just to salvage a failing run.

Anyone with some knowledge of game design principles will see how important it is for designers to be able to constraint the total resources expended in a short time. Otherwise they just can't build situations that feel challenging both to players with and without a big stack of mana potions.

Impaqt
12-22-2009, 08:24 PM
If you can only complete raids by drinking pots and your join date is dec 06...

2-3 per shrine means in ToD you can drink about 6-9, the last fight can be longer than that on higher difficulties, and you may not drink any against Nythirios (spelling? :p). Not too light IMO.


Nobody ever said anything about "Only" being able to be a reaid by using pots... But when the **** hits the fan, I like toknow I can drink a coupel pots to settle the situation down and pull out a win.



No one drinks pots when their spell points are nearly full. So why would anyone drink 6-9 pots in ToD spread out in 5 Minute intervals? the Last minute or 2 of the battles are the only critical parts.

Heal Scrolls are the single highest consumable healing in the game. THey are of utmost importance to many folks. Moreso than Mana pots.

Angelus_dead
12-22-2009, 08:25 PM
Heal scrolls have a 6 second timer, making spamming them not too worthwhile, cause they really don't heal alot.
Spamming heal scrolls doesn't make one beat a raid, but chugging mana pots can.
Fairly few groups could beat Tower of Despair without either scrolls or mana potions. It's more accurate to say that the price of Heal scrolls is inconsequential to level 20 characters. They're so cheap that it doesn't bother anyone to occasionally need to use a bunch of them.

However, there are some real game design problems involving Heal scrolls, but they are very different from the resource expenditure motivation behind the suggestion to nerf mnemonic enhancement potions.

Nezichiend
12-22-2009, 08:30 PM
I run epic quests with zero mana pots.

How many are you using?

Do you have a cleric? Why do you hate clerics?

What do you have against clerics healing you?

Did you throw little Billy down the Well?

Actually, I run a clr.

If you run epic quests with 0 pots, why would you care if a timer was put on it?

It would prevent people with no experience in a quest, no equipment from going in and beating it with tons of pots.

Angelus_dead
12-22-2009, 08:32 PM
Nobody ever said anything about "Only" being able to be a reaid by using pots... But when the **** hits the fan, I like toknow I can drink a coupel pots to settle the situation down and pull out a win.
You can still do that with a cooldown. The usual way to win an encounter should be zero potions, and to drink one should be classified as recovering from a screwup.

Note that the devs have not upgraded Mnemonic Potions since way back when the level cap was 8-10 lower. Obviously they don't want to enable even more stacking of spellpoints in a single inventory slot. But if a cooldown were added then they'd have space for quests to start dropping something better than traditional Major Mnemonic Enhancers, which would give more spellpoints and have a correspondingly longer cooldown. Drinking one of those would have a similar effect to how you migh use two majors.


No one drinks pots when their spell points are nearly full.
Because mana potions don't have a cooldown right now.


So why would anyone drink 6-9 pots in ToD spread out in 5 Minute intervals?
Because they anticipate needing the spellpoints, and want the cooldown to start sooner.


Heal Scrolls are the single highest consumable healing in the game. THey are of utmost importance to many folks. Moreso than Mana pots.
It is the heal scrolls themselves that are important, not the cost to acquire them.

Korvek
12-22-2009, 08:34 PM
1 second/2 spell points.

Having a static timer would heavily penalize a caster/cleric from drinking a Minor to get rid of Feeblemind or doing something similar.

Impaqt
12-22-2009, 08:34 PM
You can still do that with a cooldown. The usual way to win an encounter should be zero potions, and to drink one should be classified as recovering from a screwup.

Note that the devs have not upgraded Mnemonic Potions since way back when the level cap was 8-10 lower. Obviously they don't want to enable even more stacking of spellpoints in a single inventory slot. But if a cooldown were added then they'd have space for quests to start dropping something better than traditional Major Mnemonic Enhancers, which would give more spellpoints and have a correspondingly longer cooldown. Drinking one of those would have a similar effect to how you migh use two majors.


Because mana potions don't have a cooldown right now.


Because they anticipate needing the spellpoints, and want the cooldown to start sooner.


It is the heal scrolls themselves that are important, not the cost to acquire them.

Sorry, I would never drink a mana pot "Just in case" THey are simply too expensive on the AH to use them for no good reason.

Atenhotep
12-22-2009, 08:36 PM
Actually, I run a clr.

If you run epic quests with 0 pots, why would you care if a timer was put on it?

It would prevent people with no experience in a quest, no equipment from going in and beating it with tons of pots.

So you did throw Billy down the Well?

Why? Was he using mana pots?

Nezichiend
12-22-2009, 08:36 PM
It's more accurate to say that the price of Heal scrolls is inconsequential to level 20 characters. They're so cheap that it doesn't bother anyone to occasionally need to use a bunch of them.

IMO, it is more that heal scrolls have a LIMIT, only X damage healed in Y time, but mana pots are UNLIMITED you can pretty much heal more than you will ever need (max/emp/emp heal/quickened all 4 mass heals).

Angelus_dead
12-22-2009, 08:37 PM
Sorry, I would never drink a mana pot "Just in case" THey are simply too expensive on the AH to use them for no good reason.
Do you know what the word "anticipate" means? Regardless, the subquesent introduction of Double-Supreme Mnemonic Enhancers abnegates that concern.

Nezichiend
12-22-2009, 08:40 PM
So you did throw Billy down the Well?

Why? Was he using mana pots?

I understand where you are coming from, and I think it a very excellent point.

I think it just comes down to weather or not you think it is right that anyone can beat any raid just by using resources, and if you think that is right I cannot argue with you.

As I said above it is a very good point.

Pyromaniac
12-22-2009, 08:41 PM
/not signed. Continuing to take away the choice of the player base is a bad thing. Might as well start making this a completely linear game in all aspects.

Angelus_dead
12-22-2009, 08:44 PM
It's like this:

1. Players want a fun game.
2. For a lot of people, it is fun to succeed at difficult challenges.
3. It is difficult for the developers to create challenges that are difficult but beatable if they don't have a good idea of the amount of resources players can bring into the encounter.
3a. If they assume players don't have mana potions, then the fight is too easy for anyone who uses a couple.
3b. If they assume players do use mana potions, then players will complain that the challenge isn't in the encounter itself, but in the time to farm those resources.

Adding a cooldown timer to mnemonic enhancer potions would allow the devs to assume that each player can drink only 0-2 of them during a typical boss battle, greatly restricting the scope of possible player abilities they need to balance against.

nytewolf
12-22-2009, 08:51 PM
With people just being able to chug pots to beat quests I think we would benefit from:

A long timer on the use of mnomic potions!
This could be around 5 mins, maybe 4, something in there.

This will prevent under equip'd groups being able to do high lvl quests just by chugging down pots and using no skill, just green to beat the adventure.

Really, anyone can beat any quest (well maybe not ANYONE in ANY quest... but you get the idea), with enough mana potions.
This would prevent that and require more skill/ tactics to beat an adventure.

DISADVANTAGES:
With any change there ARE some downsides, but I think all in all that these following do not outweigh the benefits.

- prevents people from solo'ing high lvl raids (or duo or trio... or w/e)
- would make DQ2 Epic more challenging

I am sure that there are more but those are the main ones I can think of off the bat.

They could make the bauble & the epic ring of spellstoring on timer as well as lower level mana potions on the same universal cooldown as any other potency of mana potion (they already have the code for this with summon monster).

I read this post as well as all of the comments and came away with a question unanswered. Here is the question

Why do you care whether people chug pots?

Do you feel that because others choose to play this game differently that they should be penalised?

Should we put cool down timers on all consumables?
Do you get upset if a player drinks haste pots continually through a quest if there is no caster to cast it?
How about the characters with subpar Base attack Bonuses using multiple clickies of divine power should they be penalised?

Dont most consumables and clickies make a quest easier??

If you wish to limit how fast you use consumables or clickies to make your questing entertaining that is fine but on the flip side why not leave others to quest as they choose within the rules the game has setup.

Nezichiend
12-22-2009, 08:55 PM
I read this post as well as all of the comments and came away with a question unanswered. Here is the question

Why do you care whether people chug pots?

Do you feel that because others choose to play this game differently that they should be penalised?

Should we put cool down timers on all consumables?
Do you get upset if a player drinks haste pots continually through a quest if there is no caster to cast it?
How about the characters with subpar Base attack Bonuses using multiple clickies of divine power should they be penalised?

Dont most consumables and clickies make a quest easier??

If you wish to limit how fast you use consumables or clickies to make your questing entertaining that is fine but on the flip side why not leave others to quest as they choose within the rules the game has setup.

A_D said it better than I did, it is to level the challenge.

The devs cannot make challenging dungeons if they do not know how many resources someone can/will use to overcome it.

nytewolf
12-22-2009, 09:07 PM
I understand where you A_D and pretty much everyone in this thread is coming from, I myself try to use my pots sparingly. But It think overall there is one thing that everyone here has not really considered about this.

It is apparent from the DDO store and some of the changes made that honestly the Dev's are not overly concerned with our potion consumption, and it would seem they are suggesting we should drink more.

Heck earlier today I saw the stacks of Concentrated Major pots selling in a stack of 100 for 490 turbine points.

Read what you will into Turbines desires but actions speak louder than the silence we get from Turbine most of the time.

MissErres
12-22-2009, 09:30 PM
So let me get this straight... You want to limit the use of mana pots to make questing harder and more challenging??

Ok, then we need to remove greensteels, haste pots, raid gear, heal scrolls, clickies, bards, clerics, rangers, casters, rogues, etc .... cuz with these things and a good group, no pots are needed. We will also need to remove anyone with half a brain or anyone that has the ability to listen or learn.

In case you haven't noticed, this is a game and we're supposed to have fun. Failing quests/raids is (usually) not fun. And when you end up in a group that lacks the gear and the skills, sometimes the only thing saving your ass are those mana pots. Without them, a lot of quests would just be a colossal waste of time.

From the pot junkie... /not signed.

Guildmaster_Kadish
12-22-2009, 10:14 PM
Fine, but only make it apply to T-store potions. Of course, then they'd be inferior to normal mneumonics and people wouldn't buy as many of them, so Turbine would never do that.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-22-2009, 10:16 PM
while they are at it we want a longer cool down on cure pots, cure wands, and heal scrolls.

Letrii
12-22-2009, 11:39 PM
Make all spells share a 5 min global lockdown.

/sarcasmoff

Cyr
12-23-2009, 07:57 AM
/signed

There is nothing wrong with having a cool down on the most powerful consumable in game. As long as it is not outrageous. I would say 1 minute would be okay. If you can not spread out pots greater then that in a quest it is more then a minor blip that you are recovering from it's being in a quest that you are getting owned in without the pots. This would provide a permanent way for mana pots to be balanced in game. And yeah there is a huge difference between a cleric who is willing to down an unlimited number of pots in a quest and one who is not.

Battleworm
12-23-2009, 08:01 AM
I think we as a playerbase should stop shooting ourselves in the feet with suggestions like this.

Letrii
12-23-2009, 09:28 AM
I think we as a playerbase should stop shooting ourselves in the feet with suggestions like this.

Agreed, asking for nerfs to one aspect of game or class just leads to retaliatory nerf requests and ends with everyone being in a suckier position than when they started.

ddoer
12-23-2009, 11:25 AM
It's like this:

1. Players want a fun game.

Adding a cooldown timer to mnemonic enhancer potions would allow the devs to assume that each player can drink only 0-2 of them during a typical boss battle, greatly restricting the scope of possible player abilities they need to balance against.


So let me get this straight... You want to limit the use of mana pots to make questing harder and more challenging??
...
In case you haven't noticed, this is a game and we're supposed to have fun. Failing quests/raids is (usually) not fun. And when you end up in a group that lacks the gear and the skills, sometimes the only thing saving your ass are those mana pots. Without them, a lot of quests would just be a colossal waste of time.

From the pot junkie... /not signed.

strongly agree failing a quest/raid is not fun, and using mana pots to save a failing raid should be an option. Given the mana pots are not cheap, most people will not drink it regularly in every quest.

what if, we run a raid and one of two clerics DC'd? should the remain cleric be allowed to upkeep the whole party with a lot of mana pots?



I... it would also remove the pressure for a spellcaster in an underpowered group from dumping 10s of potions just to salvage a failing run.

it only remove the option for the caster to save a failing party. The caster is free to drink pots or not, and if he feels he has pressure to drink pots, it is a personal problem rather than a game design issue. Without the pots, he will have more pressure in using mana because he won't have the option of using mana pots in case he miscalculated mana usage. Given mana pots are costly, it is only an contingency option.




Anyone with some knowledge of game design principles will see how important it is for designers to be able to constraint the total resources expended in a short time. Otherwise they just can't build situations that feel challenging both to players with and without a big stack of mana potions.

I lack of your knowledge in game design principles so I don't see any reason there should be such a constraint. I run all kind of arcane and divine casters, and I know major pots is very expensive in AH. It is not something any caster can afford to drink regularly. If turbine sells major pots at the price of CLW pots, then it is a problem.




It would prevent people with no experience in a quest, no equipment from going in and beating it with tons of pots.

people with no xp and no equipment are unlikely to possess a large number of mana pots, and even he does, it is unlikely he could beat the quest with the pots. If the inexperienced player buy from DDO store, it is a good news and there is no reason to stop him from spending turbine points.

Impaqt
12-23-2009, 11:49 AM
Do you know what the word "anticipate" means? Regardless, the subquesent introduction of Double-Supreme Mnemonic Enhancers abnegates that concern.

Well, then you have an An argument for when "Double Supreme" you may have a better argument. Until then. you dont.

I NEVER "Anticipate" failure. to do so is foolish. I expect every quest I do to result in a Win without using mana pots.

tfangel
12-23-2009, 12:17 PM
Not signed.


Do you feel that because others choose to play this game differently that they should be penalised?


This. Play how you want, i'll play the way i want. If i want to chug potions at every time i want, i will. It won't affect you. If you decide how many i can chug, it will affect me. You don't want to chug potions often? Just don't then. Imposing your rules on others because how they play "offends" you is pointless.

How about introducing a "tiredness" mechanic? You can only swing your weapon a couple times per five minutes or run for so long before you need to rest. Seems like the melee is overpowered that they can attack as much as they like, ruins challenge.

You want a real challenge, play permadeath with strict rules, anything else is easy. (see i can do it too with saying how you play is easymode) Or how about we remove potions and scrolls? Or make them not stack, that would make it harder too.

Angelus_dead
12-23-2009, 12:50 PM
This. Play how you want, i'll play the way i want.
Are you joking? You'd better be joking somehow.

To write something that completely wrong and incredibly fallacious (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=186945) will undermine your credibility on every other topic. You're literally saying that game design doesn't matter, and the developers should do each and every random thing that anyone mentions.

I guess if I want to play with DR 100/Kryptonight I should be able to do that, huh...

moops
12-23-2009, 12:56 PM
No way.

Ive had to do alot of things to keep this game interesting for almost 4 years.

Things my clerics did for when Lvl Cap was 16 and no new content forever:
Many contests to see who can get highest kill count on Devils Elite (my fave), and many other quests --With clerics' tiny sp pool, I had to take pots to keep zapping up with the sorcs--but it was fun:)

All Cleric shroud long long long time ago, All Cleric Vod, All CLeric hound--the two latter some people didnt need to use pots, but they for fun.

Naked SHroud, Dreamspitter shroud, Holy Silver Flame CLub shroud.

Solo'd stuff b4 dungeon scaling--its nice to have that option when the game is dead, and beleive me it was dead at some points as I watched guilds dwindle down to nothing waiting for new content.

Speed Record Runs

Shortmanned Raids ( 2 - 4 peoples)

Things I do now for Fun that I use pots on:

Still have those kill count contests : )

I like to go into quests/raids and test out new strategies, sometimes these work, sometimes they don't--most of the time even if they work better, it might cost some resources the first couple times. Sometimes when testing stuff I am all by myself.. .

I solo stuff now and then, but not on normal, and some of the bosses require taking a couple pots if one does not want to take forever to kill them.

Now Practical reasons:

Raids--tis not that people need pots to get them done, most groups need healers, and often time there is only one cleric--or one BARD that is available to heal a raid. We've all seen those LFMS that sit for an hour looking for just one healer, you put a timer on pots these LFMS will sit there even longer as the option to go with one healer might be too sketchy for that particular group make up esp regarding lag issues/off peak times. I've been single clericing raids since Shroud was actually a bit challenging--when part 4 could still go 3 or 4 rounds--if I didn't have the option to take a few pots in part 4 way back when I would never have volunteered.

Lag--You would have to fix it. With DPS lag and server side lag, one needs to have the option to chug a couple pots if it gets really bad. When the whole group is lagging--one cant use scrolls. Single clericing ToD can get quite rough in part 2 with DPS lag and the new AI, this has nothing to do with player skill. If my group has to scatter and I am the only cleric/fvs, I want the option to take a couple fast pots to get the people that went down up as fat as I can.

Late night/off time grouping
Not everyone plays at peak time. Not all groups will be optimal. I play late night. My Bard has been the single group healer in both elite quests and raids, she had to use pots--but I had the option to play an alt that I really wanted to play while doing content that I wanted to play.

Who do think figure out all these resource free stratagies? ANd how do you think they got there? Ill tell ya, we all used pots to come up with strategies that benefit everyone in the long run.


You already got the pots removed from the store, no big deal I suppose.

If you succeed in this, I will quit the game.

Battleworm
12-23-2009, 01:00 PM
Are you joking? You'd better be joking somehow.

To write something that completely wrong and incredibly fallacious (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=186945) will undermine your credibility on every other topic. You're literally saying that game design doesn't matter, and the developers should do each and every random thing that anyone mentions.

I guess if I want to play with DR 100/Kryptonight I should be able to do that, huh...

If your dr100 Kryptonight was in game,then sure :D

Angelus_dead
12-23-2009, 01:07 PM
If your dr100 Kryptonight was in game,then sure
That fact that an element is in the game currently doesn't prove that it's a good idea.
The fact that something isn't in the game yet doesn't prove that it's a bad idea.

To use your reasoning would mean to claim that DDO should never have anything added again. In reality, each factor can be evaluated on its independent merits regardless of if it's been implemented or is just a hypothetical.

Linenoise2
12-23-2009, 01:08 PM
It's like this:

1. Players want a fun game.
2. For a lot of people, it is fun to succeed at difficult challenges.
3. It is difficult for the developers to create challenges that are difficult but beatable if they don't have a good idea of the amount of resources players can bring into the encounter.
3a. If they assume players don't have mana potions, then the fight is too easy for anyone who uses a couple.
3b. If they assume players do use mana potions, then players will complain that the challenge isn't in the encounter itself, but in the time to farm those resources.

Adding a cooldown timer to mnemonic enhancer potions would allow the devs to assume that each player can drink only 0-2 of them during a typical boss battle, greatly restricting the scope of possible player abilities they need to balance against.

Let's just put a cooldown timer on spells. That will keep people from burning thru their mana too fast and then needing the mana pots. Let's stop this terrible scourge from the source. The problem is not the existence of mana pots. The problem is the existence of spell casters! If we could eliminate casters from the game we will remove the need for mana pots altogether!

Problem solved...NEXT!



A_D said it better than I did, it is to level the challenge.

The devs cannot make challenging dungeons if they do not know how many resources someone can/will use to overcome it.

And mana pots are the thing stiffling the "Balance" ? *eye roll*

Seriously, who cares if sone guy needs (or wants) to drink excessive amounts of mana pots?? If I am in a dungeon with a few friends and I drink a dozen or more mana pots how does this affect your game? Hell, if I am in a group with you and I drink way too many mana pots how does it affect your game? If you got a problem with me healing I suppose you could just tell me to only heal you once every 2 minutes or some such... C'mon just cuz you do not like how a person plays does not give you the right to impose sanctimonious rules to everyone else. If you think there should be as timer on mana pots then impose one on yourself and please drop the ******** excuse that it effects game balance.

Battleworm
12-23-2009, 01:09 PM
That fact that an element is in the game currently doesn't prove that it's a good idea.
The fact that something isn't in the game get doesn't prove that it's a bad idea.

To use your reasoning would mean to claim that DDO should never have anything added again. In reality, each factor can be evaluated on its independent merits regardless of if it's been implemented or is just a hypothetical.

You're right that not everything in game should be how it is or even be there but i gave up on balance a while back.To further prove the point they don't care,just look how powerful FvS have been made...Now compare that to monk which was the last class added prior to.Just screams of imbalance but what can i do?

Twerpp
12-23-2009, 01:18 PM
You're right that not everything in game should be how it is or even be there but i gave up on balance a while back.To further prove the point they don't care,just look how powerful FvS have been made...Now compare that to monk which was the last class added prior to.Just screams of imbalance but what can i do?

Yeah. I truly believe Turbine purposely made FvS light years more powerful than clerics to

a) sell ****loads of them in the store
b)sell ****loads of TR in the store so vet clerics would re-roll into them

FvS is insanely more better than cleric. Hopefully Turbine will correct this and give clerics their due with the PrE's they have been waiting forever for. The problem is nobody is patiently waiting. They are buying FvS and Hearts of Wood just according to plan.

Linenoise2
12-23-2009, 01:21 PM
Are you joking? You'd better be joking somehow.

To write something that completely wrong and incredibly fallacious (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=186945) will undermine your credibility on every other topic. You're literally saying that game design doesn't matter, and the developers should do each and every random thing that anyone mentions.

I guess if I want to play with DR 100/Kryptonight I should be able to do that, huh...

You basing your argument on a thread that uses material written by consultants. Talk to any professional (this means non-management types) in any industry and you will find one thing universal; Consultants are a joke. They are the people that CREATE the idea of a problem so that they can come in (with their insanely overpriced fees) and tell you how to do things better. They then leave their card and tell you to call them in about 6 months to make sure things are going smoothly. They are ******** artists of the highest calibre. You would do well to NEVER listen to a consultant of any sort. :D

Battleworm
12-23-2009, 01:28 PM
Yeah. I truly believe Turbine purposely made FvS light years more powerful than clerics to

a) sell ****loads of them in the store
b)sell ****loads of TR in the store so vet clerics would re-roll into them

FvS is insanely more better than cleric. Hopefully Turbine will correct this and give clerics their due with the PrE's they have been waiting forever for. The problem is nobody is patiently waiting. They are buying FvS and Hearts of Wood just according to plan.

Yes,I came to exactly the same conclusions as you...And hope others are too.Before Unlimited was launched,DDO was dead.With just microtransactions,I am pretty sure the coffers are filling quick.If some obscure net game can generate 6-10 million dollars of microtransactions (think of battlestations on facebook or Dugout Heroes online game) I would think Turbine is doing ok.So,hopefully the days of stretching hardware thin are over and we can actually hope for a real Upgrade to the servers someday,Not a pretend upgrade where everything shoots to hell after the supposed major upgrade has been done...


*************************************


Yes.I am one of those suckers that as soon as i unlocked 32 pointers on cannith (favor) I purchased FvS and just a few nights ago a druidic heart of wood.But i found out epic tokens get carried over after reincarnation so I doubt i will buy another.

muffinlad
12-23-2009, 01:29 PM
It seems that this has gone far afield from the original topic.

The cheap pots were a mistake, and the store has been changed. People won't simply drink pots to their hearts content to easy button any adventure.

So, the suggested reason for a timer has evaporated, unless you feel that it still is a good idea, and it that case, I would simply disagree with you, and move on.

Regards,

muffinmana

Impaqt
12-23-2009, 01:32 PM
Nobody ever said anything about "Only" being able to be a reaid by using pots... But when the **** hits the fan, I like toknow I can drink a coupel pots to settle the situation down and pull out a win.



No one drinks pots when their spell points are nearly full. So why would anyone drink 6-9 pots in ToD spread out in 5 Minute intervals? the Last minute or 2 of the battles are the only critical parts.

Heal Scrolls are the single highest consumable healing in the game. THey are of utmost importance to many folks. Moreso than Mana pots.

Ya know, I generally dont say anything when I get a Negative. I find it funny usually....and I usually deserve them when I get em.... But seriously. what is in this post that deserved negative rep? Step up and tell me what is so offensive or wrong about this post that you felt the need to negative it? I'd really like to know.

cdemeritt
12-23-2009, 01:57 PM
/not signed


Pot usage is helpful to learn new raids... When VoD was new, it was often advised that if you were to cleric it bring no less than 20 mana pots, and be ready to use them... The other day I ran a PuG VoD on hard, and when the raid leader asked after how many pots were used the total from everyone was 0. Why, because we've learned how to run it without needing to use them. But how many would bother to run this now if at the beginning the chance of failure was near 99% and clerics and casters were limited on pot usage? ToD is still new, and pot usage is still high... as we become better at it, pot usage will go down.... My clerics can be very tight with his pots, and doesn't like to use them, unless they have to, and they save them for such times as where it is likely to require many.

I think the point here was that yes, the goal is to beat the raid without pot usage, but to prevent a caster from using a pot to beat the raid, will during that learning phase, will drive more people away from the game, as most people don't like to fail a raid. yes there will be some who will continue to beat their head against the wall, until the beat the raid without pots(if that is your thing, have fun with that), but for me, and I expect many others, multiple failed raids due to limits as have been suggested, will not be fun, a waste of time, and unlikely to be played (Look at the Abbot Raid for Example, how many LFM's Do you see for that one?)

Battleworm
12-23-2009, 01:59 PM
Ya know, I generally dont say anything when I get a Negative. I find it funny usually....and I usually deserve them when I get em.... But seriously. what is in this post that deserved negative rep? Step up and tell me what is so offensive or wrong about this post that you felt the need to negative it? I'd really like to know.


You'll never get that satisfaction unfortunately.This system encourages cowards in the way it is.If when you go to see where you got repped you could see who repped you,I guarantee you wouldn't see as many people throwing their weight around.But since they can hit without being unmasked,they just do it.And this account doesn't have nor ever will have enough rep to do that.And i can't disable rep on this account.


Internet favors cowards,proof is in the pudding.

MissErres
12-23-2009, 01:59 PM
Pot usage is helpful to learn new raids...

So THAT's what I've been doing wrong!!!

Sig worthy, btw, I'm stealin it. :D

Angelus_dead
12-23-2009, 02:02 PM
It seems that this has gone far afield from the original topic. The cheap pots were a mistake, and the store has been changed.
That is incorrect, The original post did not mention the DDO Store in any way.


So, the suggested reason for a timer has evaporated
No, it has not changed at all.

moops
12-23-2009, 02:10 PM
Ya know, I generally dont say anything when I get a Negative. I find it funny usually....and I usually deserve them when I get em.... But seriously. what is in this post that deserved negative rep? Step up and tell me what is so offensive or wrong about this post that you felt the need to negative it? I'd really like to know.

Yes BS, but, there are only like 15 people who could give you a neg--Im sure that you could figure it out :)

Lorichie
12-23-2009, 02:56 PM
Ya know, I generally dont say anything when I get a Negative. I find it funny usually....and I usually deserve them when I get em.... But seriously. what is in this post that deserved negative rep? Step up and tell me what is so offensive or wrong about this post that you felt the need to negative it? I'd really like to know.

Because you had the nerve to disagree. Simply put.

I'll be waiting for my negative too.

R

Bloodhaven
12-23-2009, 03:06 PM
Just sell mana pots at potion venders. They sell heal pots why not mana.


This is beginning to look like the old "Remove firewall spell" threads.

Bloodhaven
12-23-2009, 03:08 PM
Ya know, I generally dont say anything when I get a Negative. I find it funny usually....and I usually deserve them when I get em.... But seriously. what is in this post that deserved negative rep? Step up and tell me what is so offensive or wrong about this post that you felt the need to negative it? I'd really like to know.

Just turn off the popularity contest feature.. i mean Rep feature..

People almost never make scene.

Bunker
12-23-2009, 03:13 PM
OP, and anyone else for that matter:

I understand the concept of putting a timer on mana pots. Perhaps putting a more length on other timers as well. My question is, whos gameplay are you worried about?

Some say that this will help prevent groups from completing more difficult quests. My question to you is.....If you are not in the group that is using 20 mana pots to complete it, why should that matter to you?

If 12 players complete a raid using a large amount of resources, how does that affect your game playing experience. Answer: It doesn't.

I you want to limit yourself to only using 1 mana pot, or 2, or 3, then do that. You should not need a timer to delegate how difficult you want to play the game. If you wish to set guidelines on YOUR mana pot consuption, then go ahead and do so.

IMO, currently the only quest that requires the use of a mana pot is epic DQ 2. That is probably becasue I have only done it about 20 or so times and we have not found a way to use none thus far. So why put a timer on these potions, or any other resources, if all the quests in the game can be complete with out the use of them

Beherit_Baphomar
12-23-2009, 03:19 PM
Havent read the entire post but a few things about timers on SP pots.

You will have groups waiting till the clerics can chug another, thinking Shroud trees/pools here.

And do you really think Turbine don't want us to blow through 100 a day? C'mon.

phalaeo
12-23-2009, 03:35 PM
My only qualms with *in game* mana pots is that they could make them drop with just slightly increased frequency.

I'm not sure how this would work, and TBH, I don't even know if it's a good idea logistically, but the idea has been in my head for a while. For those who have not been lucky enough to pull a Ring of Spell Storing, perhaps there should eb a feat or enhancement that would allow a caster to meditate for just enough mana to get off one spell. I actually believe in the shrine system- makes the game more challenging than just "medding" for mana, but there are times when you are dry and just need to pull one rez dead....and perhaps you (me, lol) ran out of scrolls....

Dunno- it'll never happen, but I'm curious about what ppl think.

Strakeln
12-23-2009, 03:47 PM
First off, not /signed.

OP, you probably don't realize this, but the change you suggest wouldn't stop the chugging of mana pots. Casters would just chug through the entire quest instead of right when needed.

Konek
12-23-2009, 04:00 PM
Its quite simple. SP pots are for sale in the DDO store. Reducing (eg by limiting) potion usage will in turn reduce income. No company will reduce their income. Therefore there will not be changes to the potion consumption timer.

All further arguments are purely about a hypothetical situation that will honestly never happen. The more potions people use the more money Turbine makes. As long as thats true, they won't do anything to keep people from using them.

Arlith
12-23-2009, 04:48 PM
Until raids are designed around consumption of mana pots (meaning that everyone who is able to complete them without pots now is unable to complete them without pots) then I fail to see why anyone who does not have to drink mana pots should be upset over the fact that there are those who do.

In the current gaming environment, it is difficult for players that do not have experience in a quest to get that experience by running with people who have that experience. It may be the only way they get to know the quest is by bruting through it, consuming resources. Again, until it gets to the point where you are forced to consume pots it should make not one whit of difference to you.

If they were to implement timers on pots, or limit the number of pots used in a quest then that limit should be put on ALL pots. Cure pots, curse/blindness/disease/paralysis removal, haste, stat buffs, etc. While you are at it, go ahead and limit the number of times a character can be brought back to life in a quest.

Bottom line, not ALL players are created equal. Some have the skills to compete quests without using mana pots, some don't. If you do not have to use them, great, but there is no reason to be upset if someone else does. Unless of course you are only mad at the fact that others you consider less competent than you are able to complete those quests at all. Which takes the term Elitist prick to new heights.

Kza
12-23-2009, 05:25 PM
Playing on Cannith (fvsoul), many new players. Shroud run, full run. PPl badly equipped, i used over 10 pots to make it happen. Totally worth it! It had been soo boring wipe just cause of some timers. If im rdy to use lots of resources to pull through a quest, i think i shall have that choise. (only irritating thing is that not a single char even said thanks hehe)

(but on elite setting i am ok having a timer (to up the challenge), but never ever on normal)

/Not signed

Konek
12-24-2009, 12:48 AM
I would like to say that the idea that 'undeserving' people are able to complete raids that they should not is in fact quite an upsetting idea in many MMOs. The raids you're able to complete is a defining aspect of your guild's status, so having a way for the 'undeserving' to complete raids is offensive. In DDO this isn't really the case so letting people chug pots to finish raids/quests doesn't really make a difference anyway.

JOTMON
12-30-2009, 10:28 AM
I don't like the idea of putting timers on mana pots.
Messing with mana pots is like messing with Canadian Beer.
It just isn't done.

They serve their purpose and the cost justifies their value.

Ideally we run quests and try not to consume pots or scrolls.
But realistically a few bad rolls and the party can get into trouble pretty quick.
I would rather drink a pot then have to restart a quest.

I suspect you could join a permadeath group that doesn't use shrines, mana pots, or other resources to complete quests, and it would be challenging and fun. Unfortunately few toons or even groups are survivable enough from the start to be able to run every quest without some sort of enhancements.

Typically your uber survivalists are specc'ed and tweaked and equipped to solo high level quests, why punish these dedicated players..

Not many casters want to be told 'rez out and get mana', just as players in the group would not like being told 'you will have to recall to the inn to get your health back because I am saving my mana'. ' I am not drinking that potion until everyone is almost dead because there is a timer on it.'

What next... make heals temporary like rage, so when the timer runs out you have better of found a rest shrine or you are sooo dead....

If you need mana pots drink up, use the resources available, keep the DDO economy in boom. More $ for DDO = More content and better servers.

Angelus_dead
12-30-2009, 12:57 PM
They serve their purpose and the cost justifies their value.
What "purpose" do they serve?

Here are two possibilities:
1. They allow someone who ran out of spellpoints to expend an item and recover enough casting ability to survive the emergency. This purpose would still be fulfilled with a cooldown timer.

2. They mean that when players face a challenging situation, it's usually not a question of "Can we beat this?", but "How many potions will it cost to beat this?". A cooldown timer would mean that there is a limit on how many potions can be used in a battle, so that characters can't drink many of them to greatly magnify effectiveness. They're primarily reliant on their own abilities.

And that's the critical question:
Is the game more or less fun if tough encounters are decided by amount of resource expenditure? Is it a good thing that when someone suggests "Hey, how about Tower Elite?", the first thought is "How many potions are we willing to waste?"

A slightly different way to view the question is to consider competing games in the MMORPG categories and look at whether they restrict spellpoint income during premeire encounters.

Borror0
01-03-2010, 08:40 PM
Is it a good thing that when someone suggests "Hey, how about Tower Elite?", the first thought is "How many potions are we willing to waste?"
And that's the biggest problem with mnemonic potions as they currently are designed: they act as a disincentive to play tough content.

For those who were around for Module 7, A Vision of Destruction was a good example of the negative impact that mnemonics have: it was hard as hell to find a cleric for that raid because few of them were willing to spend the amount of mnemonic potions required to beat the raid, at launch.

One might be tempted to reply, "Well, if you don't like that, just don't join a group that expects you do use mnemonic enhancers!" but that would be missing an important point: raids require eleven other players to be completed for how tough they are. If you don't find those other eleven players, your chances to beat the raid are very low (which is not fun). Thus, the "just don't use them" argument falls flat here.

Bunker
01-03-2010, 09:13 PM
And that's the biggest problem with mnemonic potions as they currently are designed: they act as a disincentive to play tough content.

For those who were around for Module 7, A Vision of Destruction was a good example of the negative impact that mnemonics have: it was hard as hell to find a cleric for that raid because few of them were willing to spend the amount of mnemonic potions required to beat the raid, at launch.

One might be tempted to reply, "Well, if you don't like that, just don't join a group that expects you do use mnemonic enhancers!" but that would be missing an important point: raids require eleven other players to be completed for how tough they are. If you don't find those other eleven players, your chances to beat the raid are very low (which is not fun). Thus, the "just don't use them" argument falls flat here.

Nobody has to use Mnemonics to complete Elite content. Elite isn't suppose to be easy, it is suppose to be elite! It is possible to complete Visions and ToD on Elite without any Mnemonics.

Now Visions right when it came out, that is a different story. Any quest on elite when it is brand new, especially a raid, you are going to over use SP. However, over time, with proper tactics and strat., a no resource elite completion is possible.

Letrii
01-03-2010, 10:51 PM
Agreed, asking for nerfs to one aspect of game or class just leads to retaliatory nerf requests and ends with everyone being in a suckier position than when they started.

Thanks for the neg rep you coward that can't even tell me why you did so.

Borror0
01-03-2010, 11:07 PM
Now Visions right when it came out, that is a different story.
Which why I limited my example to the Module 7 era ("For those who were around for Module 7" and "at launch") during which it was not easy to complete Vision without mnemonics.

Of course, if you wait for a long while, tough quests become easy because people have figured them out but they stop being "tough quests" at that point. Take the Shroud as an example where the first completion by an Elite group was of 80ish minutes. Over a year later, with no level cap, people were running it in 14 minutes. Eventually, a skilled group can figure a quest and make it a cake walk. But, that's not a refutation that mnemonic enhancers don't act as disincentives from trying tough quests.

Bunker
01-03-2010, 11:19 PM
...which why I limited my example to the Module 7 era ("For those who were around for Module 7") during which it was not easy to complete Vision without mnemonics.

But that goes for any new quest. Usin the example of doing a quest for the first time does not describe completion of that quest on a weekly basis.

dasein18
01-03-2010, 11:33 PM
/not signed

Play how you want in your groups (do a no mana pot rule for all I care).. .and let me play how I want.. I will drink pots when I want to.. none of your business why I drink them..

Why folks waste their time getting their panties in a bunch over how others play is interesting. Don't you have better things to do? Like play your own toons?

Really dislike those that want to remove the "rights" of others cause they do not agree... just don't do it yourself.. stay out of how others act and want to act. Does not impact you so move on.

Borror0
01-03-2010, 11:35 PM
But that goes for any new quest. Usin the example of doing a quest for the first time does not describe completion of that quest on a weekly basis.
The second paragraph of my post (which was probably added after you started replying) addresses this but let me add something else.

You are right. But, more than applying to any new quests, it applies to any new challenges; more than to any new challenges, it applies to any non-mastered challenged (which are supposed to be the most fun...). And, that is the problem. Basically, anything that is tough comes attached with the painful decision of "you can probably overcome it if you burn several mana pots to get through". Typically, clerics don't rejoice when they have to expend loads of resources to carry a group through.

BLAKROC
01-04-2010, 12:30 AM
And that's the biggest problem with mnemonic potions as they currently are designed: they act as a disincentive to play tough content.

For those who were around for Module 7, A Vision of Destruction was a good example of the negative impact that mnemonics have: it was hard as hell to find a cleric for that raid because few of them were willing to spend the amount of mnemonic potions required to beat the raid, at launch.

One might be tempted to reply, "Well, if you don't like that, just don't join a group that expects you do use mnemonic enhancers!" but that would be missing an important point: raids require eleven other players to be completed for how tough they are. If you don't find those other eleven players, your chances to beat the raid are very low (which is not fun). Thus, the "just don't use them" argument falls flat here.

it really wasn't that hard to find clerics, if you made a group with 4 of em then you were fine no pots needed just some scrolls. actually goes a lot smoother with more than 2 healers................

Borror0
01-04-2010, 12:32 AM
it really wasn't that hard to find clerics, if you made a group with 4 of em then you were fine no pots needed just some scrolls. actually goes a lot smoother with more than 2 healers................
If your guild has so many clerics that you didn't mind putting four on the timer at once, you were extremely lucky.

giveuptg
01-04-2010, 01:45 AM
First and foremost, the timer idea in the OP is mindblowingly stupid, possibly to the point of being embarassing.

I have never, in my entire time playing DDO, witnessed a group member run out of mana and proceed to chug potions until their mana was full. Ever. Out of HUNDREDS of PUGs.

Why anyone would ever think that a timer is necessary is completely beyond me.

This is even more insulting to those of us who are (selectively) free2play, and can't afford to just buy endless mana potions from the store even if we wanted to. I have a hard enough time finding them from quests as it is.

Bunker
01-04-2010, 01:51 AM
The second paragraph of my post (which was probably added after you started replying) addresses this but let me add something else.

You are right. But, more than applying to any new quests, it applies to any new challenges; more than to any new challenges, it applies to any non-mastered challenged (which are supposed to be the most fun...). And, that is the problem. Basically, anything that is tough comes attached with the painful decision of "you can probably overcome it if you burn several mana pots to get through". Typically, clerics don't rejoice when they have to expend loads of resources to carry a group through.

Yeah, I can totally see those cleric types like that. Heck, been in a few of those groups. I guess when I see threads like this, talking about changing mnemonic pots, or saying quests can only be done with resources, I feel players look at this game a bit different.

It is hard to see ddo as a difficult game that requires tactics and teamwork when groups smaller then 4 are plowing thru content, no matter how difficult it may appear. If players actually wanted to step up the difficulty, they should try completing content with the intended challenge of not using any resources. No pots or scrolls.

I have a feeling that if Turbine ever felt that they should attach extremely long timers to consumables like mnemonic pots, then players would do what they have always done. They would adapt. Change thier play style, thier group setup.

9:10 times the whole point of chugging mnemonic potions in a group is do to the extra healing needed. I know for a fact that in almost every quest (epic dq aside currently), if groups concentrated on taking less dmg then doing more dmg for instance, the use of mnemonic pots might not be needed.

Some players are more then happy to chug down a few in any quest, they feel that is what they are there for. You know what, they are right. They aren't there becasue they are required, but rather because they are there if they want to use them.

Borror0
01-04-2010, 03:59 AM
If players actually wanted to step up the difficulty, they should try completing content with the intended challenge of not using any resources. No pots or scrolls.
Here are two important facts about games:

Fun, for as long as it relates to games, is the pleasurable feeling of overcoming challenges
People are lazy, do not want to be challenge and will do everything in their power not to be

A good example of that is how people are resistant to changes. Whenever something is changed, a large number of people will complain because they have to adapt to the new game rules. Yet, studies have shown that game with continuous updates have a much longer lifespan than games that don't because of the continuous addition of challenges.

I have a feeling that if Turbine ever felt that they should attach extremely long timers to consumables like mnemonic pots, then players would do what they have always done. They would adapt. Change thier play style, thier group setup.
Yes. Obviously. That is what would happen, and that is the intended goal.

Take the 4,1 scroll nerf as an example. Many complained about the removal of those scrolls, but we've moved on and the game has improved for that.

Some players are more then happy to chug down a few in any quest, they feel that is what they are there for. You know what, they are right. They aren't there becasue they are required, but rather because they are there if they want to use them.
Your argument boils down to:
1. They have not be forced to make that decision.
2. This is a game.
3. In a game, all player actions are made to maximize the fun the player get out of it.
4. Therefore, that decision necessarily was fun.
5. The goal of a fame is to be fun.
6. Therefore, the game's design is fine as is.

Thing is, nothing is mandatory in a game. Therefore, no one is required to make anything. Yet, there are unfun elements in our games. For example, one might grind to obtain an item. The player might not enjoy grinding but he feels that the reward is worth the pain. By following the logic you're using in the above quote, it would follow that the game could not be made more fun by reducing the amount of grind which, you will agree, is illogical.

The player made the decision because it was the most fun action he could do, not because the game's design cannot be improved.

Bunker
01-05-2010, 04:25 AM
Thing is, nothing is mandatory in a game. Therefore, no one is required to make anything. Yet, there are unfun elements in our games. For example, one might grind to obtain an item. The player might not enjoy grinding but he feels that the reward is worth the pain. By following the logic you're using in the above quote, it would follow that the game could not be made more fun by reducing the amount of grind which, you will agree, is illogical.

The player made the decision because it was the most fun action he could do, not because the game's design cannot be improved.

I actually wouldn't go as far to say the above. Simply, I don't care for the word "grind". Most if not all players, when saying grind/grinding, it has a negative tone ot the context. These players will complain about how not fun the game is because they had to "grind" to obtain an item. Seriously, if they don't like it, then dont' do it. Otherwise, dont' bother opening your mouth, talking about how unfun the grinding in the game is.

As for mnemonic potions, I do not see changing or adding a timer to these potions as a way to improve the game as a whole. They are there to use if the player wishes to. If players want a timer on them, simply only bring one potion into the quest each time. Therefore, adding thier own timer (restriction), changing the way they complete a quest.

Changes to the game are for the games improvement as a whole. I just do not see this improving the game imo.

Borror0
01-05-2010, 05:09 AM
Seriously, if they don't like it, then dont' do it.
As I said, it's not because something is done that its design cannot be improved. Take DDO, itself, as an example: you most likely think it's imperfect and could be improved in some ways, yet you still play it and find it enjoyable.

They are there to use if the player wishes to. If players want a timer on them, simply only bring one potion into the quest each time.
By that logic, game balance is an error: if the players find a class too powerful*, they just don't have to play with that class! After all, it is optional for you to play with characters of that class. You're not forced to, in any way. Yet, all game developers feel the need to balance their games because the fact that something is optional does not mean it has no effect on people who chose to ignore that element!

*It could be a quest being too rewarding, an item being too powerful, etc.

Bunker
01-05-2010, 05:15 AM
By that logic, game balance is an error: if the players find a class too powerful*, they just don't have to play with that class! After all, it is optional for you to play with characters of that class. You're not forced to, in any way. Yet, all game developers feel the need to balance their games because the fact that something is optional does not mean it has no effect on people who chose to ignore that element!

*It could be a quest being too rewarding, an item being too powerful, etc.

Probably why I'm better suited in the player catagory. I don't mind changes to the game, or game mechanics. However, they should make sense. Not be changes simply becuase they can.