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Elealar
12-21-2009, 09:52 AM
Hello,

I'm an oldschool PnP D&D player with decent amounts of 3.5 experience, so the basics of the game have been quite clear to me. However, the game does deviate from PnP 3.5 at some so with DDOWiki still down, I'll ask a string of questions here to clear out stuff that I do not fully understand.

1) What is the maximum bonus from Tome of Stat you can acquire in this game? I've heard in the public chat that +4s existed, but reading Design and Build your own Cleric (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Design_and_Build_your_Own_Cleric), it suggested that +3 is the maximum. Which is it?

2) Is there some limitation to how you can spend your level-up points? Do you have to spread them out over multiple attributes, or why is it that the Guide I linked above only spent +3 from level-ups on Wis?

3) Do Animated Shields exist within the rules, or is Shield-spell the best source of Shield-bonus to AC for people two-handing/dual wielding?

4) What kind of +10 weapon should one ultimately shoot for in a melee damage dealer build on high levels? +5 Holy Metalline Adamantine X of Pure Good? Do those even exist?

5) Is it possible to gain multiple items from the final quest on the Korthos Island? The Salvation of Korthos? 'cause I sorta would like to keep both around, the Archivist-set and the Anger-set around, but obviously that would require a second pick from the final quest.

6) Is there any limit to, on which levels you can feat retrain? I've heard Imperfect Siberys Shard only buys you a retrain up to level 8 from Fred, but haven't been able to test that out myself (not being level 8 and all).

7) What exactly does the Two-Handed Fighting (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Two_Handed_Fighting) feat chain do; I mean, how much does it boost the Glancing Blow-damage and how is Glancing Blow-damage (and To Hit) calculated in the first place?

8) What exactly is going on with the attacks in this game? I've figured moving while attacking gives you -4 to attacks and your iteratives are done at +5 and flanking seems to work as normal, but there seem to be more conditional modifiers at work; somehow my Cleric with +13 To Hit was making attacks at +20 at one point (feats being Extend Spell, Mental Toughness and MWP: Greatsword).

9) Is there any reason to use Greataxe over Greatsword? 2d6 is more average damage than 1d12 and 19-20/x2 = 20/x3 on average.

10) Do you have to confirm critical hits in this game or is rolling a threat enough to crit?

11) Do Rays do ranged touch attacks in this, or do they autohit? Consequently, what's the best way to protect oneself against Scorching Rays and the like on low levels? Resist Energy only goes so far and even if I kill the stupid Shamans ASAP, they still get a spell or two off.

12) How exactly does one disrupt AI casting? I've dealt ~30 points of damage to a Kobold Shaman while it's casting and it still finished its spell. Don't they ever fail the Concentration-check?

13) Is there any practical need for a Rogue over someone capable of casting Knock & Detect Secret Doors? Besides disarming traps.

That's all I've been pondering about. Thanks for any help you can offer!

Kralgnax
12-21-2009, 10:58 AM
Welcome to DDO! Answers in Yellow

Hello,

I'm an oldschool PnP D&D player with decent amounts of 3.5 experience, so the basics of the game have been quite clear to me. However, the game does deviate from PnP 3.5 at some so with DDOWiki still down, I'll ask a string of questions here to clear out stuff that I do not fully understand.

1) What is the maximum bonus from Tome of Stat you can acquire in this game? I've heard in the public chat that +4s existed, but reading Design and Build your own Cleric (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Design_and_Build_your_Own_Cleric), it suggested that +3 is the maximum. Which is it? +4, AFAIK.

2) Is there some limitation to how you can spend your level-up points? Do you have to spread them out over multiple attributes, or why is it that the Guide I linked above only spent +3 from level-ups on Wis? You can put them into whatever you want - most Clerics go WIS.

3) Do Animated Shields exist within the rules, or is Shield-spell the best source of Shield-bonus to AC for people two-handing/dual wielding? Not AFAIK.

4) What kind of +10 weapon should one ultimately shoot for in a melee damage dealer build on high levels? +5 Holy Metalline Adamantine X of Pure Good? Do those even exist? Well, Greensteel weapons (fabricated in the shroud) seem to be preferred over drops, as you can gain some predictability of effects. Metalline includes Adamantine - no idea exactly what randow weapon combinations are permissible, they're a bit funky. It's worth noting that many high level encounters are evil outsiders (Demons & Devils), so weapons specific to them tend to do well.

5) Is it possible to gain multiple items from the final quest on the Korthos Island? The Salvation of Korthos? 'cause I sorta would like to keep both around, the Archivist-set and the Anger-set around, but obviously that would require a second pick from the final quest. No.

6) Is there any limit to, on which levels you can feat retrain? I've heard Imperfect Siberys Shard only buys you a retrain up to level 8 from Fred, but haven't been able to test that out myself (not being level 8 and all). No, but it gets much prricier (in both cash cost and materials) at higher levels, so feat changes are to avoided. You can do a quest with Lockania in the marketplace for 1 free feat exchange, which many folks recommend reserving for higher levels.

7) What exactly does the Two-Handed Fighting (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Two_Handed_Fighting) feat chain do; I mean, how much does it boost the Glancing Blow-damage and how is Glancing Blow-damage (and To Hit) calculated in the first place? No idea

8) What exactly is going on with the attacks in this game? I've figured moving while attacking gives you -4 to attacks and your iteratives are done at +5 and flanking seems to work as normal, but there seem to be more conditional modifiers at work; somehow my Cleric with +13 To Hit was making attacks at +20 at one point (feats being Extend Spell, Mental Toughness and MWP: Greatsword). No idea.

9) Is there any reason to use Greataxe over Greatsword? 2d6 is more average damage than 1d12 and 19-20/x2 = 20/x3 on average. If you're a dwarf, racial enhancements factor into it. CW favours Falchion over either.

10) Do you have to confirm critical hits in this game or is rolling a threat enough to crit? You have to confirm.

11) Do Rays do ranged touch attacks in this, or do they autohit? Consequently, what's the best way to protect oneself against Scorching Rays and the like on low levels? Resist Energy only goes so far and even if I kill the stupid Shamans ASAP, they still get a spell or two off. Rays can be dodged/ avoided . This is very helpful when fighting beholders.

12) How exactly does one disrupt AI casting? I've dealt ~30 points of damage to a Kobold Shaman while it's casting and it still finished its spell. Don't they ever fail the Concentration-check? No idea -I don't think you get to see their rolls. Don't forget that latency & resolution order often gets the apparent order of things garbled. For instance, I've stuck an Otto's on a target and seen damage a second or so later while I was smacking the dancer, before it broke. In general, disrupting hostile casters is a problem.

13) Is there any practical need for a Rogue over someone capable of casting Knock & Detect Secret Doors? Besides disarming traps. Sustained melee DPS - also, do be aware traps are huge on higher difficulties..

That's all I've been pondering about. Thanks for any help you can offer!

Cheers!

Baahb3
12-21-2009, 11:16 AM
8) What exactly is going on with the attacks in this game? I've figured moving while attacking gives you -4 to attacks and your iteratives are done at +5 and flanking seems to work as normal, but there seem to be more conditional modifiers at work; somehow my Cleric with +13 To Hit was making attacks at +20 at one point (feats being Extend Spell, Mental Toughness and MWP: Greatsword).



Attacks in this game are kind of opposite than in PnP. Your first two attacks are at your normal to hit bonus and then for your 3rd you get +5 to hit and then for your 4th you get +10. So you attack progression is +0/+0/+5/+10 instead of +0/-5/-10/-15 like in PnP.

So in your example I would guess that you were flanking making your to hit +15 and you were noticing your 3rd attack in your sequence.

Elealar
12-21-2009, 06:54 PM
Alright, thanks. Any clarification on the Glancing Blows-rules is still welcome, of course.


So, am I correct in assuming that the Max Wis I could acquire as a Cleric would be:

18+3 Cleric+1 Human+4 Tome+5 Levels+6 Item for 37? Of course that's wasting one point; as such I'm interested in if there's something to boost it to 38. I doubt Age-categories will be implemented any time soon, but am I missing any points?

A related question, is there any way to get bonus spell slots ("spells prepared") for a level? I haven't noticed any from high ability score, which sucks majorly. Initially I figured the Spell Point system makes casters stronger than in PnP, but having only couple of spells of each level prepared is certainly quite the nerf.


Also, regarding the Weapon query, how common are alignment-based DRs? I'm a bit surprised by the game lacking Align Weapon so am I to assume DR/Chaotic or Lawful is also quite rare or inexistent altogether?

Finally, another question regarding monsters in this game: Is this like some stupid MMOs in the sense that bosses are immune to non-damage debuffing effects like Command, Glitterdust, Web, Enervation, etc.?

Aspenor
12-21-2009, 07:08 PM
Alright, thanks. Any clarification on the Glancing Blows-rules is still welcome, of course.


So, am I correct in assuming that the Max Wis I could acquire as a Cleric would be:

18+3 Cleric+1 Human+4 Tome+5 Levels+6 Item for 37? Of course that's wasting one point; as such I'm interested in if there's something to boost it to 38. I doubt Age-categories will be implemented any time soon, but am I missing any points?

A related question, is there any way to get bonus spell slots ("spells prepared") for a level? I haven't noticed any from high ability score, which sucks majorly. Initially I figured the Spell Point system makes casters stronger than in PnP, but having only couple of spells of each level prepared is certainly quite the nerf.


Also, regarding the Weapon query, how common are alignment-based DRs? I'm a bit surprised by the game lacking Align Weapon so am I to assume DR/Chaotic or Lawful is also quite rare or inexistent altogether?

Finally, another question regarding monsters in this game: Is this like some stupid MMOs in the sense that bosses are immune to non-damage debuffing effects like Command, Glitterdust, Web, Enervation, etc.?

You can get +9 wisdom from green steel weaponry on a cleric, 3 of which is called an exceptional bonus. You can also get +1 profane bonus from a trinket in the Abbot raid.

alignment based DRs are actually pretty common, especially at end-game on the big raid bosses. The most common is DR/good AND silver, but there is also DR/lawful AND cold iron, and I believe there is DR/good and cold iron.

and yes, the big boss baddies are immune to spells such as you named. this is to create challenge, as they would be pushovers otherwise.

Elealar
12-21-2009, 07:17 PM
You can get +9 wisdom from green steel weaponry on a cleric, 3 of which is called an exceptional bonus. You can also get +1 profane bonus from a trinket in the Abbot raid.

Hmm, so the composite total you can achieve is 41? Damn, still an odd number.


alignment based DRs are actually pretty common, especially at end-game on the big raid bosses. The most common is DR/good AND silver, but there is also DR/lawful AND cold iron, and I believe there is DR/good and cold iron.

Ah yeah, for whatever reason I wasn't thinking of /Good and /Evil as alignments. I meant if Lawful and Chaotic DRs are common. Hmm, that's pestersome then. Removing Align Weapon...what an underhanded move. I guess I'll have to try and acquire an Axiomatic and Anarchic weapon towards the end; at least I'm Neutral so I have no trouble wielding them. And I guess DRs are ultimately all something you can still kill the opponents through.


and yes, the big boss baddies are immune to spells such as you named. this is to create challenge, as they would be pushovers otherwise.

Meh, I hate that in MMOs. It's like the creators couldn't think of any other way to make them challenging than to make them plain immune to more creative ways of solving things. If you did that in PnP, you'd just get a bunch of books in the temple and revoking of DM rights, and yet I don't remember a single PnP endgame boss that was a pushover just because it was subject to such abilities.

Why not just make them immune to damage too and force you to kill them with Save-or-Dies for which they only fail saves on natural 1s while at it... Sorry for the rant, I just tend to get carried away on that subject. Ah well, at least I know not to bother trying then. Thanks a bunch!

Junts
12-21-2009, 07:35 PM
Glancing blows work thus:

2 of your 4 attacks by default do a glancing blow attack in addition to their normal swing. The 'greater two handed fighting' feat adds a 3rd. These glancing blows can hit your initial target as well as anything else in the cone of the swing.

Glancing blows do:

weapon damage + damage bonus + feat specific bonus / divisor

weapon damage: your weapon die
damage bonus: standard + to damage
feat specific bonus: 0 for no feats, 10 for each additional feat (eg 10 for thf, 30 for having gthf)

divisor is based on your base attack bonus:

bab 1-10: 5
bab 11-15: 4
bab 16+: 3.33

This means glancing blows will scale up a lot more as you cross those BAB thresholds and acquire the feats for them. Glancing blows cannot crit. The thf feats and a variety of enhancements (available to warforged, barbarians and kensai) will increase the likelyhood that weapon flags (like holy) will appear on your glancing blow. No one has quantified this data yet, but the high-end for someone with all of them seems to be around 30-35%

Certain effects have 100% occurance on glancing blows as long as you have the feats; this includes barbarian frenzied berserker bonus damage, paladin knight of the chalice bonus damage (and a set bonus associated with it) and paladin capstone damage. This makes g lancing blows a way, way bigger deal for thf barbarians and paladins, who will be applying 6d6-9d6 additional admage on top of their 15-25 point glancing blow, guaranteed.

There is a to-hit roll on glancing blows but I dont remember exactly how its done; as I recall, it starts at a to-hit penalty and scales up with the associated feats, and with ithf and gthf it has a to-hit bonus.

---

regarding weapon selection. weapons can recieve one of each of the following in random loot drops:

1: prefix with an enchantment value (examples: holy, true chaos, shocking, flaming burst, metalline, vorpal, banishing, paralyzing, cursespewing)
1: metallic effect that have no enchantment value (adamantine, silver, flametouched iron, etc)
1: suffix effect with enchantment value (pure good, bane, greater bane, destruction, smiting, disrupting, shattermantle, etc)

There is not to my yknowledge a comprehensive listanywhere of which are prefixes and which are suffixes.

Consequently, you could have:

+x holy silver weapon of greater bane
+x shocking burst adamantine weapon of pure good
+x vorpal flametouched iron weapon of shattermantle

but you cannot have
+x holy metalline weapon of shocking
+x orc bane smiting weapon of banishing

etc

Named loot (eg, unique items generated by the development team, separate from randomly generated loot) can break these rules; for example, the named staff 'rahls might' has the following effects:

1 of: shocking, force, impact, axiomatic (all prefixes normally), bleed (suffix only found on random handwraps)
Deception
Improved Destruction
+6 strength (an effect incapable of randomly spawning on weapons)

In addition to combining modifiers in this way, Rahls might has other unique traits, such as a 20/x3 instead of 20/x2 critical trait and bypassing piercing, slashing and bludgeoning drs.

Even with all those effects, rahls might is generally regarded as a pretty poor weapon.

As far as greatswords and greataxes go, you will find that in DDO at higher levels +damage numbers are much, much larger, and that greensteel greataxes have superior base damages (gs greataxes are 3d6 base damage, vs 2d8 for greatswords) and consequently are heavily preferred. However, falchions are superior to both weapons as long as your +damage number is over about 40, and at higher levels in DDO as a melee character this will routinely be true.

In DDO because we stack way, way, way more +damage effects than you would see in a normal pnp game, critical threat traits are exponentially more important, and it is exceptionally rare to see an endgame melee character who is not using the weapon with the superior critical threat traits available to them (eg, rapiers, picks, scimitars, falchions, and the number of people who spend a feat to acquire proficency with the 19-20/x3 khopesh is tremendous). 19-20/x2 and 20/x3 weaponry is widely avoided and causes a significant penalty to damage done. The only people who will routinely use a weapon with 20/x3 traits are dwarves with greensteel dwarven axes, which have a 2d8 base damage and a racial +2 damage worth of enhancements while wielding the weapon. Even so, their damage output will generally do no more than equal an elf/drow using their racial scimitar/rapier enhancements, and is straight up inferior to anyone who's spent a feat on Khopeshes. Khopesh is the only weapon in the entire game worth a feat slot, and other exotic weapons are nearly universally avoided. It is widely felt that something should be done to the 19-20/x2 bastard sword to improve its critical traits so it's a worthwhile weapon at higher levels in DDO.

The issues of weapon scaling are such that you will begin to see the differences in threat traits as early as level 6-8, and it becomes extremely clear at level 8-9 when all melee characters have acquired the improved critical feat.

Elealar
12-21-2009, 07:53 PM
Thanks a ton. Few inquiries that arose from this:

First, regarding THF: Is stuff like Holy also subject to the reduction in damage on a successful Glancing Blow? 'cause that seems like it could make the feat-chain worthwhile even for my Cleric, if it's applied in its entirety. I could be at least dealing ~base damage+10 on each Glancing Blow meaning it'd be somewhat relevant.


GIn DDO because we stack way, way, way more +damage effects than you would see in a normal pnp game, critical threat traits are exponentially more important, and it is exceptionally rare to see an endgame melee character who is not using the weapon with the superior critical threat traits available to them (eg, rapiers, picks, scimitars, falchions, and the number of people who spend a feat to acquire proficency with the 19-20/x3 khopesh is tremendous). 19-20/x2 and 20/x3 weaponry is widely avoided and causes a significant penalty to damage done. The only people who will routinely use a weapon with 20/x3 traits are dwarves with greensteel dwarven axes, which have a 2d8 base damage and a racial +2 damage worth of enhancements while wielding the weapon. Even so, their damage output will generally do no more than equal an elf/drow using their racial scimitar/rapier enhancements, and is straight up inferior to anyone who's spent a feat on Khopeshes. Khopesh is the only weapon in the entire game worth a feat slot, and other exotic weapons are nearly universally avoided. It is widely felt that something should be done to the 19-20/x2 bastard sword to improve its critical traits so it's a worthwhile weapon at higher levels in DDO.

The issues of weapon scaling are such that you will begin to see the differences in threat traits as early as level 6-8, and it becomes extremely clear at level 8-9 when all melee characters have acquired the improved critical feat.

Aren't critical-immune opponents common in this game? That, along with the power of the charge-related feats, is the primary reason that critical range is really quite universally ignored in higher level PnP (that and the fact that in there, reach weapons rule and tend to lack critical range, but that's neither here nor now as they don't even seem to exist in DDO); Undead, Elementals, Plants, Oozes and Constructs are naturally immune and Greater Fortifications-armor, Heart of X-line spells and such pretty much guarantee that every high-level opponent worth anything is immune to Criticals.

Are such opponents simply more rare or comprising a smaller part of the dangerous-opponents-section in higher level DDO? 'cause PnP caused me to pretty much ignore critical range as anything but a secondary considerations since it came into play so rarely when it mattered. Hmm, well, I'm still low-enough leveled to switch to Falchions.


As for Khopesh, I was sure 19-20/x3 was a typo; there's a reason that doesn't exist in PnP as it's equivalent to 17-20/x2 or 20/x5 in composite damage... Is it possible to wield a one-handed weapon two-handed in this game? I almost want to two-hand a Khopesh for my Cleric now.

And yeah, Bastard Sword (and most other Exotic Weapons) are direct ports from PnP and not worth a feat there too. The single Exotic Weapon worth anything in Core PnP is the Spiked Chain and that's 'cause it's a reach weapon that threatens adjacent and can be used to Trip AND Disarm... At least SOMETHING inherited that mantle in DDO.


Actually, this seems very similar to PnP as your damage output on higher levels is trivially 40+ per hit anyways meaning the weapon damage becomes a diminished part of the composite damage raising the value of all the non-damage abilities of the weapon making Greatswords obsolete past level ~5.

Junts
12-21-2009, 07:58 PM
After the mid-levels when you stop seeing undead, no, there are pretty much no critical immune foes, though critical-resistance is common on some raid bosses, it's not significant enough to make the high-crit range weaponry poorer (though sometimes it closes the gap).

There's also no charge or related feats in DDO. Critical power (the combined effect of range and multiplier) is absolutely king, and most of the high-dps dealing classes do so because they get critical-related benefits (for example, frenzie berserkers get +3 crit multiplier on natural 19s and 20s, and Kensai recieve +1 critical threat range with their chosen weapon).


There are pretty much no undead in quests higher than level 15 (a few here and there. not much), the constructs are rarely an issue (hello, greater construct banes), there are no plants and foes do not wear equipment. Pit fiend and horned devil raid boses have between 25-50% fortification naturally. There are no plants. Elementals are similarly pretty easy with bane weaponry. There are no spells in DDO which increase fortification, only item effects (and every player will have full immunity from 11+).

Full critical immunity isn't feasible in that it would make rogues completely worthless. And no, you can't use a khopesh in 2 hands, something I personally suspect was never coded specifically for that same reason (that it'd only ever be used to make a 1-handed weapon a better 2hander than the actual 2handers).

Oh lastly, you won't get holy damage / 3.33 on glancing blows, no, but since it can only happen at best about 15% of the time if you aren't a warforged kensai/barbarian w/ enhancements, its a pretty small thing. Nonetheless, the raw improvement in glances is nice, since getting a 25 point glance on your main target is like hitting for 25 more on htat swing .. and they will always hit your main target and happen on 3/4 of your swings with all the feats. If you're serious about two handed melee, you need all 3 feats.

Elealar
12-21-2009, 08:31 PM
Alright. So a Cleric Two-Hander with e.g. Falchion, critical feats and THF line could deal respectable damage, but lacking the enhancements would leave him still behind, especially without the truly impressive buff spells (even simple stuff like Righteous Might doesn't exist).

Hmm, on the other front, what kind of AC should a high-level character actually caring about AC aim for? I can only imagine the Iteratives-alterations bode poorly for AC altogether especially with most of the strong AC-boosting means (Magic Vestment, Animated Shields, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, etc.) gone from the game in its entirety and no accessible forms of Cover, Dodge-bonus or such around.


Hmm, Cleric 19/Monk 1 with 18/14 base Dex/Wis could get 15 Wis (outlined above) + 7 Dex (14+4 Tome+6 Item) + 5 Deflection (Shield of Faith) + 5 Natural Armor (Amulet) + 8 Armor (Bracers) + 4 Shield (Shield-spell) + 10 Base = 54 AC; would this be sufficient to gain any decent degree of protection on higher levels. What about miss chances; does everything relevant come with ready True Seeing so it just doesn't matter?

If not, what kinds of protections actually work in this game? I counted the max Armor-based AC (discounting momentary bonuses like Human Versatility) you can gain is 3 Dex + 13 (+5 Fullplate) + 9 (+5 Tower Shield) + 10 Deflection/NA + 10 Base for 45, which I assume is just no good (I guess Combat Expertise and Defensive Fighting/Total Defense help there)? Or is Natural Armor even accessible in this game?

Junts
12-21-2009, 09:03 PM
Alright. So a Cleric Two-Hander with e.g. Falchion, critical feats and THF line could deal respectable damage, but lacking the enhancements would leave him still behind, especially without the truly impressive buff spells (even simple stuff like Righteous Might doesn't exist).

Hmm, on the other front, what kind of AC should a high-level character actually caring about AC aim for? I can only imagine the Iteratives-alterations bode poorly for AC altogether especially with most of the strong AC-boosting means (Magic Vestment, Animated Shields, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, etc.) gone from the game in its entirety and no accessible forms of Cover, Dodge-bonus or such around.


Hmm, Cleric 19/Monk 1 with 18/14 base Dex/Wis could get 15 Wis (outlined above) + 7 Dex (14+4 Tome+6 Item) + 5 Deflection (Shield of Faith) + 5 Natural Armor (Amulet) + 8 Armor (Bracers) + 4 Shield (Shield-spell) + 10 Base = 54 AC; would this be sufficient to gain any decent degree of protection on higher levels. What about miss chances; does everything relevant come with ready True Seeing so it just doesn't matter?

If not, what kinds of protections actually work in this game? I counted the max Armor-based AC (discounting momentary bonuses like Human Versatility) you can gain is 3 Dex + 13 (+5 Fullplate) + 9 (+5 Tower Shield) + 10 Deflection/NA + 10 Base for 45, which I assume is just no good (I guess Combat Expertise and Defensive Fighting/Total Defense help there)? Or is Natural Armor even accessible in this game?

the cle/monk you listed (18/2, evasion comes at monk 2) can easlily break an armor class of 75 in DDO at high levels. That's generally enough to help, but in the 50s .. not so much

My fp tank tops out at 83 ac with raid buffs.

Understanding ac breakdowns and factors is a ... really long post.

Amulets of natural armor don't exist on DDO, but rangers are plentiful and barkskin +3 pots are cheap consumables.

There are items in DDO that provide dodge bonuses to AC, as well.

Elealar
12-21-2009, 09:12 PM
the cle/monk you listed (18/2, evasion comes at monk 2) can easlily break an armor class of 75 in DDO at high levels. That's generally enough to help, but in the 50s .. not so much

My fp tank tops out at 83 ac with raid buffs.

Understanding ac breakdowns and factors is a ... really long post.

Amulets of natural armor don't exist on DDO, but rangers are plentiful and barkskin +3 pots are cheap consumables.

There are items in DDO that provide dodge bonuses to AC, as well.

I can only figure Tumbling for ~+4 more AC, maybe Combat Expertise and Defense for +9 more and such, but I can hardly begin to fathom how you'd break 70, let alone 80. And judging from how you value Evasion, I guess Rings of Evasion & Monk's Belts don't exist in this game?

Can you clarify how the whole Tumbling-thing works; I mean, Tumbling in combat increases your AC with Mobility & al., that I get, but is it somehow possible to keep those AC bonuses on while attacking (and somehow making the target focus on you)?

If I'm understanding this correctly (reading this (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2017629&postcount=1) thread), the additional AC bonuses should come from enhancements and temporary bonuses. Could you list the composite AC of your Tank along with the sources? I'm pretty sure that'd clarify to me the big picture.


Oh, by the way, is the Lord of Blades-path for Warforged Clerics any good (well, aside from the obvious fact that -2 Wis on a Wis-based caster SUCKS)? I gave it a brief glance since it focuses on Greatswords, and the Bladesworn Transformation seemed somewhat interesting for a buff-focused Cleric, if horribly annoying in that it gives up spellcasting. Still, it was the only real combat enhancement Clerics seem entitled to so it caught my eye. I guess it just doesn't cut the mustard, especially without a decent crit range weapon?

Junts
12-21-2009, 09:35 PM
...has such a post ever been written, anywhere? 'cause I'd really like to know, but I can't really force you to write it all out. A link would be awesome, or at least...an abbreviated version. I can only figure Tumbling for ~+4 more AC, maybe Combat Expertise and Defense for +9 more and such, but I can hardly begin to fathom how you'd break 70, let alone 80.

But as I said, I've got PnP experience, so just listing primary sources, types and amounts should be sufficient; I trust I can figure the rest (like how to put it all together and such) out for myself. And judging from how you value Evasion, I guess Rings of Evasion & Monk's Belts don't exist in this game?


Oh, by the way, is the Lord of Blades-path for Warforged Clerics any good (well, aside from the obvious fact that -2 Wis on a Wis-based caster SUCKS)? I gave it a brief glance since it focuses on Greatswords, and the Bladesworn Transformation seemed somewhat interesting for a buff-focused Cleric, if horribly annoying in that it gives up spellcasting. Still, it was the only real combat enhancement Clerics seem entitled to so it caught my eye. I guess it just doesn't cut the mustard, especially without a decent crit range weapon?

Lord of the blades leaves something to be desired.

Alright, I'll give you a couple breakdowns

Plate, 83


10 base
15 armor (Epic Vambraces of Inner Light)
01 dexterity modifier
02 dexterity modifier, blue augment crystal in VoIL
02 dexterity modifier: Defender of Siberys 3 heavy armor bonus
09 Levik's Defender (+5 mithral tower shield, w +3 dex bonus from Defender of Siberys 3)
01 Alchemical armor ritual (stacks with everything but itself)
01 Alchemical shield ritual (see above)
05 Deflection: Protection +5 on greensteel Mineral2 goggles
02 Dodge: Chaosgarde
03 Dodge: Chattering Ring
04 Insight: Shroud Mineral2 Khopesh w/ Heightened Awareness 4
01 Dodge feat
05 Combat Expertise
04 Superior Defensive Stance
06 Paladin Aura w/ Bulwark of Good IV & Defender of Siberys 3
05 Ranger Barkskin (lasts 20 min)
04 Inspire Heroics Bardsong (lasts 8 min)
01 Haste (lasts 4 min)
02 Recitation (lasts 4 min)
---
83
02 Defender of Siberys ring set bonus
--
85

A dwarf with dwarven armor mastery enhancements could beat me by a couple; a fighter stalwart defender could also beat me if we stood next to each other (so he got the 6 ac from my paladin aura). Note: Aura of good provides +ac and +saves on DDO, and can be improved via enhancements (mine is +6 ac and +5 all saves to people nearby)

Halfling cleric /2 Monk-thingamajig


10 base
08 armor bracers
16 wisdom modifier
11 dexterity modifier
05 deflection
04 dodge: icy rainments
03 dodge: chattering ring
04 insight: shroud weapon
01 alchemical armor ritual
04 shield clicky/wand
01 dodge feat
04 inspire heroics
05 ranger barkskin
02 recitation
01 haste
--
79

And thats without combat expertise (which deactivates after any spellcast on DDO, so its not feasible for a cleric), no paladin aura, etc. It could easily go higher.

As you can probably see, armor class on DDO is -incredibly- gear dependent and incredibly dependent on what abilities you give your character (umd for wands of shield for ac types, defender prestige enhancement lines, chattering rings, multiple crafted items, to save slots and/or get unique effects, etc). It takes 3-5x longer to equip a high ac build than any other alternative type of build for endgame-quality, as there's way more specific loot involved, and way more people want that loot. The chattering ring and rainments in particular can be very hard to get, as they only drop bound to character from places youll need the assistance of others in getting to: most people willing to re-run that stuff the 20-40 times it'l ltake you to get them also want those items, which is why it will take 20-40 runs to get them: youll probably have to see the mmultiple times before you can loot them.

AC is a specialized, not incidental, thing for DDO charcters, except for monks who tend to get rreasonably useful armor classes by accident.

Angelus_dead
12-21-2009, 09:54 PM
Alright. So a Cleric Two-Hander with e.g. Falchion, critical feats and THF line could deal respectable damage, but lacking the enhancements would leave him still behind, especially without the truly impressive buff spells (even simple stuff like Righteous Might doesn't exist).
Note that in D&D, it was an error that the melee power of a self-buffed Cleric was so high compared to a Fighter. The original release of DDO shared that problem, but it has been rectified by adding various damage-boosting enhancements to the Fighter class (and by nerfing DF in accordance with the D&D errata).

Elealar
12-21-2009, 09:57 PM
Alright, thanks. Sorta as I figured; stock equipment only gets you to...trivial levels and a ton of specific items nearly 1.5* multiplies that. So yeah, a Cleric/Monk can reach competitive AC levels if he so desires.

I think that's all I've got off the top of my head, I think. I do sorta like the idea of a Cleric Tank or Cleric DPS even if they're slightly suboptimal. I think I'm gonna give it a whirl, though I guess that means buying the Monk, something I specifically vowed I wouldn't do. Ah well.


Thanks a ton for answering all the questions indepth; this'll be a handy resource for me as I get to know the game better.


Note that in D&D, it was an error that the melee power of a self-buffed Cleric was so high compared to a Fighter. The original release of DDO shared that problem, but it has been rectified by adding various damage-boosting enhancements to the Fighter class (and by nerfing DF in accordance with the D&D errata).

Aye, I know. The funny thing is, in 3.5 the problem just got worse with more material (though some tricks exist for Fighters). But it seems like especially enhancements along with the lack of certain buff spells see to keeping Cleric Warriors a bit under straight-classed warriors; still not a bad place to be at given they have full casting to show for their troubles. But yeah, I sorta like it this way. Now, if only all the weapon stats and such weren't FUBAR...