View Full Version : Sorc with a 2 pally splash: Is it worth it?

12-19-2009, 09:32 PM
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12-19-2009, 09:36 PM
You will be losing two 9th level spells, one 8th level spell, 2 off your Spell Penetration Check and 200 or so SP.

12-19-2009, 09:54 PM
One significant question is when are you going to take those Pally levels?

If you take them as level 19 and 20, then you're losing the benefit of the levels for most of your character's career as far as leveling goes.

If you take them earlier than that, you will end up getting your x level spells 1 or 2 levels later. Do you want to wait until level 9 to get Wall of Fire?

I'm not saying that this is an impossible challenge to overcome. I'm just saying that getting your spells two levels late means that you're running level 12 quests as a level 10 sorcerer. With melee builds, it's not so significant because melee tends to be a little more linear in terms of power at each level. Spellcasters are different, though, because the next level's spells are often significantly better than the previous level's. This is a big enough difference that I feel like I didn't really level at all when I get an even Wizard level and I feel like Christmas when I go up an odd Wizard level - all because of the nifty new spells that I get to play with.

For me, the biggest loss in multiclassing a spellcaster isn't the end game loss in power. It's the delay in getting to that power.

12-20-2009, 02:37 AM
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12-20-2009, 03:06 AM
Very good point, this is something I had not considered (and should have), but this build is not one built for out put, as I'm obviously making the offensive sacrifice for defensive measures this is obviously a defensive build. I knew going in to this (if only in a general sense) that my damage output would suffer a bit and it's something I'm prepared to accept and to answer your question I would take the pally leves at level 1 and 2 respectively to capitalize on the mas soon as possible and yes that does mean I would be 2 levels down for basically the whole game. I did the math on this and with the "Force of Personality" Feat and the two levels of pally I should be able to get a will save of 36 prebuff, pregear, with buffs and gear a will save of 70 or more seems realistically possible with my dex and con saves being in the mid to high 50's. That means that there should be nary a spell that's gets cast on me and doesn't drip off me like water off a ducks back.

Except when you roll a 1 ;).

12-20-2009, 03:17 AM
i just got my wf sorc/rogue/paladin to lvl 14 and he's one of the characters i've had the most fun with. there are, however, some serious detriments to multiclassing casting builds.

he's 32 pt so going wf didn't hurt my stats much and the self healing and immunities are wonderful, and my gear really helped, but for those first 9 lvls you'll find yourself meleeing all the time because your sorc dps will be so much lower. i made the build able to do that with extended haste and divine power clickies and extended displacement and lots of buffs, but until you get to that wall of fire at 10 (sorcs get it at 8, +2 multiclass lvls) your spell dps will be a waste of your sp.

i went rogue for evasion and full trapmonkeying and paladin for the saves obviously, plus pd has aura and both classes have some useful enhancements, saves, ab, hp, and whatever other miniscule building factors, but what i found was that with my sorc spell buffs it's completely unnecessary to worry about your saves. i've ended up just going straight sorc after my first pd and rog lvl because the spells and gear take care of everything and the new spells and sp are more important. right now i have all saves in 20s anyway and getting to reconstruct was more important than evasion or another 6 or 7 saves.
when your saves get to a certain point all that matters is rolling that autofail 1. for the same reason 2monk/18favored souls dont trade 2 fvs for paladin-'cause those extra saves don't stop that autofail and with good gear and the right build choice their saves are already as good as can be asked for.

sorcs can use prot elements+resist elements for most things that you save against, can raise their saves with heroism and gh and the stat spell buffs, blur/displace/stoneskin/shield for survivability, permahaste, self-heal if you're wf, and lots more. just don't underestimate those caster lvls. casters are the least eligible of any classes to multiclass generally because their power is so dependent on having high caster lvls.
when you see people going at it with finger of death and maximized disintigrate you'll start to wonder if those petty saves are really doing much for someone who is playing a class that should try to avoid getting in the way of anything that would require you to save anyway, and who should be able to protect himself against what slips by without needing to make those saves.

12-20-2009, 03:52 AM
All i have to say on the matter is that multiclassing a Sorc is a big no no in my book for one major reason. You lose alot of power, now if you were to make an extraordinarily thought out build going for a multitude of skills and such id say power to ya kuz i absolutly love a good multi-class. But 2 pally levels net you nothing more than what would equate to a free heal scroll and uselessly high saves. I ask that if u wish to multiclass a caster put alot of thought and effort into or just dont bother.

12-20-2009, 04:13 AM
Ill sayng a sorc is bad idea (if yu where gonna do it it better be WF). If i was gonna personally doo it id pick pally, but thats me. Go 2/anything thing wizard...WF...but as i said that just me.

12-20-2009, 10:54 AM
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12-20-2009, 11:10 AM
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12-20-2009, 11:54 AM
So my question is: Is the loss of a level 9 spell and a cap stone worth the trade off? I am not going to debate with any one this time, I don't think it's productive. If you disagree feel free to say so. I just want to know what every one thinks and why, because the path to perfections is paved with scrutiny.

If your sorcerer picks up two levels of paladin, you suffer a -2 penalty on all caster level checks, making it considerably more difficult to bypass enemy spell resistance. This will also cut the damage and duration of some of your spells. In my judgment, those are the most important reasons not to splash paladin. Secondarily you will lose a level 9 spell and the capstone, as well as a fair number of spell points -- good reasons in and of themselves not to splash but less important in my judgment than the reduced caster level.

If you want self-healing, the only real way to avoid these liabilities is to go warforged and live with the CHA penalty. But if you accept these sacrifices and want to splash specifically for self-healing, it's probably best to choose a class that will uncap UMD and thereby let you use heal scrolls (key at mid-to-high levels) as well as wands. Rogue comes to mind as the best choice here, especially given your statement that you value defense over offense as two levels of rogue would give you evasion.

If you aren't going to do either of those things and are determined to use cure wands without putting points in UMD, then paladin is probably your best option because of their CHA-based bonus to saves. And you do occasionally see characters like this running around, though they aren't especially common.

12-20-2009, 01:55 PM
I think he's talking about building a melee caster. If that is the case, the best breakdowns I've seen are 16 Sorc/2 pal/2 rogue. Cha, Str, and Con are the big 3 stats, followed closely by Int and Maybe dex. Wisdom is a dump stat. You would want to grab you rogue levels at 1 and probably 10 or 11. Pally levels at probably 3 and 12. Most of your spells will be of the buff or control area. You will not be taking many direct damage spells in most cases. If I'm way off, disregard everything I've typed here as I was simply mistaken.

12-20-2009, 02:02 PM
I didn't exactly say saves themselfs are useless, i said uselessy high says means yes wonderful your saves are near the 50's but my saves barely break 30 yet we both have a 5% chance to succumb to whatever effect. It is my believe that this game is unique in the fact that if you want to play a sorc stay pure. Its not that u lose ALOT its that you dont really gain anything more useful than another spell slot or another 350 SP. I to had a shield barb in D2 and infact i still play D2 on a regular basis (though now ive upgraded to using trainers and im playing every mod i can get my hands on) I recommend you stay pure but if you think you would benifit better from multiclassing then theres no reason to argue with you make the class you feel you would enjoy the most bud. But from near 4 years of experiance... only 1 in every 10000 multi-classed sorcs dont seem to be a drain on my party, but i do absolutly LOVE when i find that 1.

EDIT: by the way sorcs best defense in my experiance is dont stick around to get hit, get in and get out, displacement jump and haste.

12-20-2009, 02:08 PM
Also I'd like to add the point every1 seems to be side stepping around is that yes you can do a vast multitude of things on a majority caster splash... but just because you can do ALOT of neat stuff usually means you cant do anything well. This seems to be a game of consolidation, You want to DPS great do this, You want to Turtle up great be this and wear this that and the other thing. Tanks, Palidans, Sorcs 99% of the players do everything they can to be the best at what they do and ONLY what they do. That is why it is so rare to find a mutli-classed caster that is able to shine through. Fair to say impossible.

12-20-2009, 02:48 PM
As someone else said, a game where you will always fail on a 1, makes saves - while important - not that vastly important as to necessitate splashing two levels for pretty much that reason alone (you can easily add UMD and use heal wands and properly geared scrolls as well).

Unless you are building a melee caster (which requires a lot of considerations) then do not do this.

12-20-2009, 09:36 PM
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12-20-2009, 09:39 PM
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12-20-2009, 09:42 PM
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12-21-2009, 04:02 AM
The only goal I have with this toon is "Don't die."
And i think it can reach these goals pretty well. It's a solid "do nothing and survive it" build.
You found a lot of synergies with Paladin and Sorcerer and Charisma etc, but by packing all these synergies in you just forgot to ask the simple question: What is your character actually supposed to DO? What is he supposed to be GOOD at?

Lets see.
Your AC will suck. You'll have low hitpoints.
But not to worry, your melee DPS will stink so you'll draw little aggro (thats the "survival" part of your character). Your spells are pointless for the most part, except the buffs that can just be handed by a real caster or gotten from items/potions.
Your self healing is limited to scrolls, as such as good as Anything 19/Rogue 1. At least you can scroll heal the useful characters in your parties...

You can do traps but who cares. And Rogues can do them too, and KILL stuff really well. Which your build simply cant.

12-21-2009, 05:11 AM
The splash would be decent for improving your otherwise awful Reflex save, but I just don't think it's worth while. Caster buffs + skillful play tends to be enough for most situations. If you were going for a combat-caster, where you were going to be in melee more often, and the target of more spells as a result, then it would be worthwhile.

12-21-2009, 05:57 AM
Yup, See below.

Actually this is almost exactly what I had in mind, very perceptive of you. I was in fact thinking about a couple of rogue levels as well but didn't mention it because I figured I'd get laughed off the forums. Any one have a counter point? If this build has weaknesses I'd like to know now so I can prep for them in advance. But to be honest though I was thinking a something a little more extreme. Bare with me here, I realize off the bat that this will sound incredibly weak at first but think about it for a sec:

Drow: Sorc 13 / Rogue 4 / Pally 3

I wouldn't even call Wis a dump stat. In this build it's an ignore at all cost stat. If you get force of personality your wis is 100% useless on this build. I'd have it at -8 even at level 20 I wouldn't even waist a spell slot on Owl's Wis.

This build is not designed to be a caster, rather it is a build designed to be able to switch back and forth between the role of a rogue and a full on Melee DPSer. Granted it wont hold up to a barb but most barbarians have will saves so low it takes them out of the fight to quick, my guy will actualy last allot longer than a barb when someone casts Otto's disco ball.

I don't think of it as a sorc that is losing a bunch of spells I think of it as a paladin that is gaining a bunch of spell that it would ordinarily get till epic level, remember pallys only get level 4 spells this build would allow up to level 6.

First question: Why 4 rogue? seems a waist right? the first 2 are obvious, evasion. The next two though, well with 4 levels of rogue I will get 32 skill points to distribute, What are the 2 most important skills to a rogue? Search and DD of course, find the trap stop the trap. I can get my search to a base of 16 by dumping 8 points in to it over 2 levels plus Elves get a bonus to this. Will I find every single thing? No, but from what I hear there are things in this game that even level 20 pure rogues have trouble finding so I'm not gonna cry if I miss 1 chest in 20.Same with DD, there's no substitution for good old fashioned training here. Of course there's UMD but I'll have a huge cha bonus plus if i get an item with a good UMD bonus on it I should be doing fine. people tell me a UMD check of 40 is good enough to get the job done most of the time, sounds doable to me.

Second question: Why 3 pally? 2 is more than enough, and you don't get ANYTHING from pally 3. well yes and no you get 2 things I covet, immunity 2 disease and immunity to fear Plus a +3 bonus to AC and saves. Yes some people believe that this is wasteful and there opinions of this is well founded but in this particular case it was simply a matter of personal choice, I hate fear and mummy rot. Pally 3 solved both problems permanently. The way I see it saying "But you'll weaken your sorc spells!" is irrelevant you lost 4 levels of sorc already, the damage is done if I lose a bit more offense to gain some D and be able to effectively solo.

OK lets loo kat the pros and cons of this build:

Self healing
Self buffing
Good at Rogue related tasks ie: Disabling traps
Immune to Sleep, Disease, Fear ect.
Excellent Will and reflex saves as well as noteworthy fort save
Respectable AC and HP
Level six spells in stead of the pally's usual level 4 or the rogues usual level 0.
Can wear all armor and use shields but at the cost of Arcane spell failure. (arcane fluidity and mythril gear can help with that though)
Good UMD check

Spell DC will suck, HARD.
HP to low for any real melee combat making this toon more of a rogue or bard style of melee.
Lack of focus makes this build a jack of all trades but a master of nothing.

Yes this build has it's weaknesses but it seems to me that the pros out weigh the cons. Will this thing be a terminator? Maybe not but it's not suppose to be, I won't be rushing in to combat like some dumb noob and try to fight ten on one or charge aimlessly through a hellatraped corridor, I'll be careful and intelligent and if that fails well I got good saves and haste to run with because I planed ahead. The only goal I have with this toon is "Don't die." A big part of weather or not this will be a good build is how well I play it.

Well seems like the discussions over bud lol. You've put alot of thought into and while its fair to say u can be blinded by your "Love" for a build i think you should make it. However ill never be convinced its a good idea until i see it work and niether will 95% of the rest of the game so luck with getting groups and i hope i get to meet this end product. have fun bud!