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View Full Version : Named Loot in 20th completions please.



Seliana
12-18-2009, 06:58 PM
In game we have a system where if you complete a raid 20 times, on your 20th completion you get to pick from a list of half the named items that could drop from that raid.

Why cant we have this for all quests in game that contain named items instead of just the raids? I have run some quests where 40+ completions has not dropped the item i was looking for. I feel its unfair that we should be denied some pieces of named gear in game due to bad luck 40 times in a row.

Aerniel
12-18-2009, 07:01 PM
get over it xD

Kaervas
12-18-2009, 07:15 PM
I wouldn't mind that as long as the 20th completion version was BtC.

Crazyfruit
12-18-2009, 07:17 PM
Sure would be nice.

rimble
12-18-2009, 07:52 PM
I wouldn't mind that as long as the 20th completion version was BtC.

Nice caveat.

Junts
12-18-2009, 08:03 PM
The main reason for the 20th completion reward is that you can only run a raid 2.33 times per week (specifically, 10 runs per month). However, you can loot a regular quest chest or end reward 8 times per week before getting your named item stops being an option: you have 22 more chances per month to acquire the item.

While I'd love the option (sitting at 70+ runs of weap ship without a bauble), the two things aren't really comparable.

Kaervas
12-18-2009, 08:16 PM
You make a very good point, but on the other hand this also deals with (usually) weaker items.

Something like 20 completions for quest levels 01-10, 30 completions for quest levels 11-15, and 50 completions for quest levels 16-20 could work. Tweak the numbers as you see fit.
Also add in a second restriction that Elite difficulty must be completed if the quest has one.

That should work a little better.

Of course it would be best if each quest had its own repeat requirements before unlocking named loot, based on how desired the item is for your class and build, but that level of focus is nigh impossible.

Junts
12-18-2009, 08:19 PM
You make a very good point, but on the other hand this also deals with (usually) weaker items.

Something like 20 completions for quest levels 01-10, 30 completions for quest levels 11-15, and 50 completions for quest levels 16-20 could work. Tweak the numbers as you see fit.
Also add in a second restriction that Elite difficulty must be completed if the quest has one.

That should work a little better.

Of course it would be best if each quest had its own repeat requirements before unlocking named loot, based on how desired the item is for your class and build, but that level of focus is nigh impossible.

There isn't a named item in quests below level 9 that is so rare as to merit this sort of code.

The first named item of that nature is the Planar Gird, who's rarity is appropriate because it's an incredibly powerful item for its level, and remains incredibly essential for the rest of the game.

What item, besides the gird and chaosgarde, drops from any static bound end loot or quest chest prior to the Demon Sands and is so rare this is necessary?

Kaervas
12-18-2009, 08:39 PM
Not many.
Just sayin' if this kind of system was to happen, it should scale somewhat from 1-20 or it would be a waste of time at low levels and overly beneficial at 20.


Taking a glance through the Definitive Static Rewards list to refresh my memory though, here are a (very) few things from quests level 10 and below that I would want even at higher levels on various characters:
You already mentioned the Planar Gird and Chaosgarde
Royal Guard Mask (Ghola Fan, level 10) - non-arcane/non-UMD
Ring of the Ancestors (Shrieking Mines, level 10) - Good non-UMD/non-healer
Devout Handwraps (Shadow Crypt, level 9) - monk
Docent of Blood (Bloody Crypt, level 6) - barbarian healing amp until Dragontouched
There's also the Bloodrage Symbiont, but I think that doesn't count since you can't really ransack it can you.


It's a short list, but wouldn't it be odd if this kind of completion thing was added for higher level quests only? It would make more sense if it was added for quests of all levels and scaled in some manner so that the better loot remained harder to get, but in a way that prevented >50-completions-with-no-drop situations occurring.


The list starts filling up a lot quicker over level 10, it'd be really nice if it happened. 30 or 50 runs is a small price to pay for the knowledge that your grind will eventually pay off with some measure of certainty.

Junts
12-18-2009, 08:41 PM
Not many.
Just sayin' if this kind of system was to happen, it should scale somewhat from 1-20 or it would be a waste of time at low levels and overly beneficial at 20.


Taking a glance through the Definitive Static Rewards list to refresh my memory though, here are a (very) few things from quests level 10 and below that I would want even at higher levels on various characters:
You already mentioned the Planar Gird and Chaosgarde
Royal Guard Mask (Ghola Fan, level 10) - non-arcane/non-UMD
Ring of the Ancestors (Shrieking Mines, level 10) - Good non-UMD/non-healer
Devout Handwraps (Shadow Crypt, level 9) - monk
Docent of Blood (Bloody Crypt, level 6) - barbarian healing amp until Dragontouched
There's also the Bloodrage Symbiont, but I think that doesn't count since you can't really ransack it can you.


It's a short list, but wouldn't it be odd if this kind of completion thing was added for higher level quests only? It would make more sense if it was added for quests of all levels and scaled in some manner so that the better loot remained harder to get, but in a way that prevented >50-completions-with-no-drop situations occurring.

What makes you think its good for the game if a significant segment of the few items left with value in the trading economy are guaranteed farmable so no one ever has to buy them?

Its bad enough now that almost nothing has the trading value of shroud ingredients; you think its good to make it even worse?

A lot of that stuff have 1% drop rates on purpose. You aren't supposed to go get bloodstones and rgms in 20 runs guaranteed.

Kaervas
12-18-2009, 08:46 PM
Point taken, I fold.



Edit:
Sorry, I was thinking about things a bit more. I'll have to subject the poor readers to my rambling again.
I am not trying to be argumentative but merely trying to make all sides of the issue visible for myself.


Regarding Bloodstone, this wouldn't affect it (I never expected it to either, the Bloodstone run is on an even easier tier than grinding <insert low-level dungeon>), and if it's anything like raid loot completions, 20 runs would net you about half the possible named loot from a dungeon (much of which is pretty useless). So you wouldn't automatically get whatever loot you wanted after 20/30/50 runs unless it was the only named item in a dungeon.
I think that's a passable compromise - it still reduces the element of randomness, without making it set-in-stone guaranteed. Think of it as a milestone bonus during the grind for whatever it is you're after. Every runs, you have a 50/50 chance to get what you want.

Royal Guard Mask is also one of the items you'd generally want more than one of, like Planar Girds. I dunno about other people but I would only ever consider farming a RGM myself, and only when bored. It's purely a convenience item and I see the things on the auction for 7-8 million gold at the lowest, usually closer to 10. Do people seriously drop 7-10 million gold on a single Teleport/day? And I don't mean 3 year vets with tens of millions of platinum, I mean the motley bunch that joined when F2P happened.
Furthermore the items you would get via this system, being BtC, would not be transferable to alts. You'd have to grind them again.

~1% drop rates are kinda silly since it takes things outside the realm of skill or strategy and puts it up to sheer luck (and persistence, though not so much with ransack mechanics unless you have many characters who can reasonably do that dungeon grind and the item is unbound).
For every 1 person that's overjoyed by pulling so-and-so item, there are countless others wallowing in boredom/considering just paying for someone's luck and being done with it. Hell, the very presence of the many masks/girds/raise rings on the AH show that the lucky people are often the ones who don't need the item, just more gold.

As I said previously, the best option would be if each quest was assessed separately and the better loot remained harder to obtain. However, the mundane loot should be a lot more accessible. I'm talking about the kind of gold bordered items which only grant you access to a certain magnitude of stat 2 levels earlier than via random generated loot. I hold no illusions of this ever happening.
This kind of system would work very well if you were at-quest-level, farming at-level gear that would NOT be useful in a few level's time due to getting new, better stuff. The problem is, as Junts pointed out, there isn't much that warrants it at lower levels.
Those 20 at-level runs will also be a large chunk of boring experience which will cause the player to outstrip other at-level content.

Most of the items I listed were actually rather bad examples for the system as they are things that are useful even at level 20 in many cases. The Gird, Mask, and raise dead Ring should remain quite rare as the utility they provide never really fades, for the classes that need them in the first place. They are also items you will want more than one of if you can stomach the grind/cost. Lastly they're items you would never need to bind, meaning they can be used on all your eligible characters once you obtain the amount you want.
However, the Handwraps are BtC - not much is lost by making them a little easier to farm, and the market remains for Metalline of PG handwraps of greater than +2 (and it's not like nobody would want +1 or +2 ones period, the grind is still tedious that many would prefer to just drop the gold and be done).
Docent of Blood is absolutely fine to make more accessible, it's an item that is replaced eventually with a better one (roulette forgiving) which can have 2 other stats as well as lacking the penalty that the Blood stat bestows.

Regarding the weakening economy, wouldn't maintaining the current status not really do anything? The rest of the withering economy as you call it, would continue to wither unless the problem was fixed at its root - whatever that is.
Making certain items easier to personally grind out is a separate issue from why the rest of the economy is dying in the first place. If [i]both things were fixed then there would be more players willing to actually grind a lot of these items, thus spending more time online (cunningly repeating the same content for a carrot on a stick which actually now has a chance of eventually reaching their mouths) - not that I advocate such things, but this artificial extension of the same content sounds good for devs as it gives a portion of the player base something time consuming to do which actually yields a meaningful reward eventually.
As it is now, I know a lot of players who won't even bother to farm those things because the time spent in Bring me the Head of Ghola Fan would end up hundreds of times longer than the time Teleporting 1/day with a Mask would save, and there is no guarantee that you would ever pull it. However if you started running it and your terrible luck persisted you would constantly be warring with pressing on, or abandoning all the time spent up to this point.

So having put my (messy) thoughts into words, I can see that properly scaling a system like this would entail too much effort, even though if it did actually work, it would be a very good thing. Weighing effort vs reward though, the existing drops system works. I don't think it's ideal but it is a system used in countless other games because it's simple and hard to break - I guess this would be a good time to use the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
The economy though, that needs fixing, stat (that's for a different thread).


Again, sorry for rambling when my eventual consensus reached was "just leave it alone and forget about it".
I just felt like getting it down on paper so I could assess my own thoughts from a distance.
I may have made some contradictory points in this and previous posts, since I was just typing it out as I thought about it, if I have, just disregard them. I was turning the idea around and looking at it from different angles.

Dexxaan
12-18-2009, 08:51 PM
/disagree.

Further "Easy Buttoning" and Bar Lowering simply awful.



.

Seliana
12-19-2009, 03:31 AM
There isn't a named item in quests below level 9 that is so rare as to merit this sort of code.

The first named item of that nature is the Planar Gird, who's rarity is appropriate because it's an incredibly powerful item for its level, and remains incredibly essential for the rest of the game.

What item, besides the gird and chaosgarde, drops from any static bound end loot or quest chest prior to the Demon Sands and is so rare this is necessary?

Devout Handwraps.

Seliana
12-19-2009, 03:46 AM
These are all great suggestions to be honest. Scaling with level or rarity, bound to character only so it doesn't become a point of selling the item? Excellent stuff here guys.

Though, I really don't see bad luck as lowering any bars or an "easy button" however. The chance of getting an item still would require a significant investment in time and energy to achieve, especially if it scaled based on level.

I feel the term "Easy Mode" is thrown around way too much on these forums, and while this is occasionally true not all of these claims are legitimate. Some players are lucky and just pull what they are looking for on the 2nd or 3rd try regularly, Others suffer through dull repetition without reward for months at a time. The point of video games is to relax and have fun, and sometimes have a challenge thrown in as well. I personally play games to have fun, and grinding quests 30, 40, or 50 times just to get nothing for all that effort is not fun at all.

Junts
12-19-2009, 04:18 AM
These are all great suggestions to be honest. Scaling with level or rarity, bound to character only so it doesn't become a point of selling the item? Excellent stuff here guys.

Though, I really don't see bad luck as lowering any bars or an "easy button" however. The chance of getting an item still would require a significant investment in time and energy to achieve, especially if it scaled based on level.

I feel the term "Easy Mode" is thrown around way too much on these forums, and while this is occasionally true not all of these claims are legitimate. Some players are lucky and just pull what they are looking for on the 2nd or 3rd try regularly, Others suffer through dull repetition without reward for months at a time. The point of video games is to relax and have fun, and sometimes have a challenge thrown in as well. I personally play games to have fun, and grinding quests 30, 40, or 50 times just to get nothing for all that effort is not fun at all.

It doesnt matter if you cant sell the item, it means you'll no longer have to buy it

Economy is good.

I know people who've ransacked ghola fan every week for months and not seen a mask; it makes pulling or buying one a pretty neat thing.

This game's trade economy is withering on the vine; everything that isnt large ingredients continues to depreciate. Removing highly valuable convienence/twink items is a really bad idea.

I know it sucks to try to pull them, but the game really needs something people will pay 400-500k platinum for that isnt named 'large devil scale'. It only has 10 or so of those things as it is.

Crazyfruit
12-19-2009, 09:32 AM
There isn't a named item in quests below level 9 that is so rare as to merit this sort of code.

There's quite a few people repeat run for until they give up. Bound to account helped make the bound ones a lot less eye gouging to get if someone plays multiple chars & vip:

- Black Widow Bracers
- Flesh Render Goggles
- Trapblast Goggles
- STK ring
- Braza's Hat (cosmetic only, pirate hat)
- That ring at the end of Captives
- Carnifex
- Cartouche
- Arlyn's ring
- Neck of Contemplation
- Muckdoom, Docent of Acid, Robe of Acid
- Couple Redwillow items
- Various Tempest Spine items (<3 my eternal charm monster)

Tons more if you include past level 9