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View Full Version : Comrades, Light Armor, Balance, Trip and Knockdown



vettkinn
12-17-2009, 09:06 PM
Greetings comrades,

What I know is that:

- When wearing heavy armor, balance is reduced and if you're knocked down, you stay down for a long time.
- ^ with Tower shield, knockdown lasts even longer

So basically, balance reduces the "downtime" when knocked down.

I would like to know the following:

1. What save is used against trip and improved trip? Balance or reflex?

2. What about the giant stomp move? Do we need reflex saves for that?

3. Since my new super duper build uses light armor, how much balance should be considered "sufficient"? (I'm not liking the idea of maxing it because I have other skills to consider).

I just hate those stupid dogs :(

FauxSho
12-17-2009, 11:47 PM
Trip and Improved Trip use the Strength bonus (DC 10 + Str mod for Trip and DC 14 + Str mod for Improved Trip).
The save versus trip uses an opposed STR/DEX check (the higher of the strength or dexterity bonus).
If the target fails the check, they fall down, and roll using their Balance score every few seconds to try to stand up again.

So... yes, a reduced Balance score from skill penalty on armor/shields can result in staying prone longer, overall.

I'm not sure on the save versus giant stomp.

"Sufficient" is open to debate. Generally, if you're concerned about balance and have skill points to spare, you will put max ranks in Balance if at all possible.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-17-2009, 11:51 PM
Am I the only one that can't take any post from the OP seriously because of his constant use of "comrade"?

HeavenlyCloud
12-17-2009, 11:55 PM
Am I the only one that can't take any post from the OP seriously because of his constant use of "comrade"?

I am with you on this one.

KillEveryone
12-18-2009, 01:25 AM
Am I the only one that can't take any post from the OP seriously because of his constant use of "comrade"?

I had thought of the "comrade" thing just before I looked at this post.

Just curious about the comrade thing...I would suspect you are from Russia or somewhere there about but is this a standard greeting or something.

It doesn't really bother me and I won't stop looking at your posts but I'm still curious. I realize that there are different cultures and such.

vettkinn
12-18-2009, 01:31 AM
Comrades, I am genuinely asking for advice you know :D

Erekose
12-18-2009, 01:53 AM
Am I the only one that can't take any post from the OP seriously because of his constant use of "comrade"?

Explain how, in less than 500 words, why you feel this way.

Rasczak
12-18-2009, 02:14 AM
If you start dishing out vodka I'm going away :D

On the bright side...you using heavy armour and a tower shield so even if you do stay down longer you only really lose your dex bonus to ac so you should be fine sleeping on the job.....

As everyone has said...an oppossing str roll is needed not to fall over and since most of your strength and concentration goes into just being able to stand up in full plate and a tower shield...... (that is not serious btw ;) )....getting up quickly means a decent balance score...don't waste points on things you don't use. Put some ranks into balance.....or use mithral or adamantium stuff. Those -6's & -10's to skill checks with normal items means you will take longer to get up ;)

Shade
12-18-2009, 02:38 AM
Trip, Improved, Giant Stop knockdown and Marilith Overrun are all standard ability saves: D20 + Strength or Dex mod, whichever is higher.

In general, the DC for all of these ability's is 20. It sometimes scales up slightly at higher lvls/difficulties, but very rarely more then +/- 1 to 5 points.

So a 50 Strength or Dex is what you need to aim for to have a very good chance of resisting them.

If you fail that check, you get a balance check to get up, every 2 seconds. The DC for this is the same as the initial DC, so again generally 20.

So generally for most str based melee builds, this means that yes you do infact want to max the skill. As a crossclass skill you get only 11 ranks, add gh for 15, then a bit of dex for 20 and your set. If your going for very high dex or will get it as a class skill, you can skimp a bit.

Like save rolls, a 1 is an automatic failure and a 20 is an automatic success. This however imo is a bug, as skill checks are not meant to function like that, but for now, they do.

Only exception to this rule is Warforged Titan Knockdown which is purely balance. For both the knockdown and getting up. Also the DC is much higher, at about 30.

vettkinn
12-18-2009, 02:42 AM
Thank you comrade FauxSho and comrade Rasczak for giving insight. I don't know why but the others like to keep hurting my feelings! :(


Now back to topic


The save versus trip uses an opposed STR/DEX check (the higher of the strength or dexterity bonus).

Hmmm, I don't know. I used a fighter once with max starting STR (18 + enhancements and enchantments) but those stupid dogs keep on tripping me. Could it be that only the opposing DEX roll is used? (that fighter had low DEX - 13)

Rasczak
12-18-2009, 02:59 AM
Hmmm, I don't know. I used a fighter once with max starting STR (18 + enhancements and enchantments) but those stupid dogs keep on tripping me. Could it be that only the opposing DEX roll is used? (that fighter had low DEX - 13)


Well consider it this way then....You not using your Strength score as such, so say a 24 Strength....this doesn't mean you are going to add 24 to the trip check. A 24 strength has a +7 modifier (the number to the right of your score on your character sheet. This number is the modifier) What that means is whatever number is randomly rolled on the dice gets +7 added to it. Now looking at basic figures that means you have to roll 13 or higher on the dice to be successful in standing (using the DC 20 from Shades post). Now if your strength is higher you have a better chance, if it's lower you have a worse chance.

You have to use the ability modifier and not the ability value itself. And that is why in most cases it is better to have an even score since there is no difference in a modifier for an odd score. And example would be 24 Strength has the same effect as 25 Strength. Their modifier is the same ;)

dunklezhan
12-18-2009, 08:25 AM
Am I the only one that can't take any post from the OP seriously because of his constant use of "comrade"?

Strongly suspect its calculated to draw comment. This bothers me not one jot, I am immune to such tactics most of the time. I *am* kindof irked though by the constant use of the 'angry face' smiley on every thread s/he starts, which makes it seem like you're always about to read a rant.

However, s/he does keep asking fairly pertinent and specific questions which, when answered, help me understand the game better, so I always end up reading the threads anyway. I would hate to see the questions asked not answered because of a single word which can simply mean 'comrade in arms', 'brother', and be used to indicate solidarity of belief, approach, or a general commonality of spirit (such as, say a large community of people engaged in playing the same online game), regardless of the other connotations of the word that some people may perceive are negative.

ddaedelus
12-18-2009, 08:47 AM
If you start dishing out vodka I'm going away :D


If he starts dishing out vodka, I'm here for the duration. :D

For some reason I get a kick out of the :mad: followed by "comrades" followed by a completely reasonable question. :)

sephiroth1084
12-18-2009, 09:00 AM
The whole "comrade" thing kinda irks me too, and I can't say why as I'm not sure. Maybe just because it's unusual? Or presumes upon a relationship that isn't there necessarily? I'd probably bristle at someone saying, "Friend(s)" all the time in the same fashion also. Me and my New Yorker misanthropy. :cool:

The angry face thing on all the threads is also misleading. Vettkinn, you may want to consider using a different icon, or none at all for your threads and posts... the :mad: face tends to be used when someone is ranting or complaining, not really when questioning.

vettkinn
12-18-2009, 08:03 PM
However, s/he does keep asking fairly pertinent and specific questions which, when answered, help me understand the game better, so I always end up reading the threads anyway.
I am pleased to see that others are also learning with me.


Vettkinn, you may want to consider using a different icon, or none at all for your threads and posts... the face tends to be used when someone is ranting or complaining, not really when questioning.
I apologize if it is misleading, but I use the red face icon because it is the only icon that's colored red. And I don't like the thumbs down icon. Regardless, people still answer my posts and give good advice, despite the bad guys who keep attacking me :D


Now back to topic

Well consider it this way then....You not using your Strength score as such, so say a 24 Strength....this doesn't mean you are going to add 24 to the trip check. A 24 strength has a +7 modifier (the number to the right of your score on your character sheet. This number is the modifier) What that means is whatever number is randomly rolled on the dice gets +7 added to it. Now looking at basic figures that means you have to roll 13 or higher on the dice to be successful in standing (using the DC 20 from Shades post). Now if your strength is higher you have a better chance, if it's lower you have a worse chance.

You have to use the ability modifier and not the ability value itself. And that is why in most cases it is better to have an even score since there is no difference in a modifier for an odd score. And example would be 24 Strength has the same effect as 25 Strength. Their modifier is the same

Actually comrade, I know about the modifier thing, but thanks for the clarification. I shall plan further so that I will be able to make the best out of my new super duper build. :D

Junts
12-18-2009, 08:04 PM
Am I the only one that can't take any post from the OP seriously because of his constant use of "comrade"?


In Soviet Russia, Vettkin takes you seriously.

PurdueDave
12-19-2009, 05:00 AM
Am I the only one that can't take any post from the OP seriously because of his constant use of "comrade"?

No. Decent question, though.

ivar415
12-19-2009, 03:08 PM
So getting back on topic, what would be a recommended value for balance.
Is a (combined)skill of 14-18 enough to usually jump right back up, or do balance checks get harder in the higher levels?

FarOutFish
12-19-2009, 03:42 PM
Am I the only one that can't take any post from the OP seriously because of his constant use of "comrade"?

com⋅rade
  /ˈkɒmræd, -rɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kom-rad, -rid] Show IPA
Use comrade in a Sentence
See web results for comrade
See images of comrade
–noun
1. a person who shares in one's activities, occupation, etc.; companion, associate, or friend.
2. a fellow member of a fraternal group, political party, etc.
3. a member of the Communist party or someone with strongly leftist views.
Origin:
1585–95; < MF camarade < Sp camarada group of soldiers billeted together, equiv. to cámar(a) room (< L; see camera ) + -ada < L -āta, fem. of -ātus -ate 1

Memnir
12-19-2009, 03:51 PM
Am I the only one that can't take any post from the OP seriously because of his constant use of "comrade"?I don't mind that half as much as his use of :mad: as a tab for his each and every post.

But, every time I see "Comrades" the urge to make a "In Soviet Russia..." joke becomes nearly overwhelming. So, yeah - I can't take him seriously at all, and have just taken to ignoring most of his posts because of it.


Maybe I'll just put him on Ignore and be done with it. Kinda drastic for a minor annoyance - but I'm tempted nevertheless.

FarOutFish
12-19-2009, 05:10 PM
I don't mind that half as much as his use of :mad: as a tab for his each and every post.

But, every time I see "Comrades" the urge to make a "In Soviet Russia..." joke becomes nearly overwhelming. So, yeah - I can't take him seriously at all, and have just taken to ignoring most of his posts because of it.


Maybe I'll just put him on Ignore and be done with it. Kinda drastic for a minor annoyance - but I'm tempted nevertheless.

The reference to The Soviet Union is only the third definition. We are all Comrades in Arms.

Memnir
12-19-2009, 05:31 PM
While you may be technically correct - it's still the first one in my mind. And it's annoying to me, regardless.