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Mithran
12-17-2009, 06:30 PM
How many capstones are more desirable than Evasion, in retrospect?

I honestly don't have an agenda, here, as I haven't hit a capstone, yet.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-17-2009, 06:34 PM
How many capstones are more desirable than Evasion, in retrospect?

I honestly don't have an agenda, here, as I haven't hit a capstone, yet.

It depends. Not all capstones are equal, not all builds will benefit equally from evasion, not all playstyles will benefit equally from evasion or the capstone.

hydra_ex
12-17-2009, 06:42 PM
In general, with some specific, common circumstances addressed:

Barbarian: Not worth the evasion; A barbarian has a low enough reflex save that evasion will not consistently work, and more STR is always nice (Well... as soon as it works). In addition, with that much hp, who needs evasion? :) (Well... as soon as it works)

Bard: For a caster/healer: Not worth the evasion; You stay back most of the time anyways, and the extra DCs/SPs from a higher CHA are nice. Melee: No harm taking evasion, but other splashes can hold as much value as well for DPS.

Cleric: Splash away!

Fighter: Unless you also have something else up your sleeve (such as a monster), the pure fighter will deal a ton of damage, and have enough hp such that evasion is not strictly required.

Favored Soul: Splash or no splash, does not really matter. The +2 CHA from the capstone is OK, but FvS have enough sp already.

Monk: Already get evasion, and who wouldn't go pure?

Paladin: Not worth it, unless you want to miss out on weapons of good, which, in addition to providing a nice damage boost, gives much more synergy with weapons.

Ranger: Already get evasion, but capstone is also horrible for tempest.

Rogue: Already get evasion.

Sorcerer: Never splash a caster. Ever.

Wizard: The capstone is insanely good - IMO, the best one.

melkor1702
12-17-2009, 06:44 PM
How many capstones are more desirable than Evasion, in retrospect?

I honestly don't have an agenda, here, as I haven't hit a capstone, yet.

I think the consensus is that you will never get a consensus about anything on the forums :rolleyes:

excess
12-17-2009, 07:01 PM
Paladin: Not worth it, unless you want to miss out on weapons of good, which, in addition to providing a nice damage boost, gives much more synergy with weapons.

It also costs you DMIV (if you ever land a +4 tome or went 17 base cha at build time), DSIII (another 2D6 of damage on every DS - 9D6 vs 7D6 for DSII) and possibly ESIV (the compendium doesn't include it under enhancments, so I can't be certain) so quite a bit more DPS all in all.

Evasion with paladin saves is still a nice thing to have for surviving and helps in particular since paladins spread their build points pretty thin, often resulting in lower con than a comparably built melee toon of another evasion lacking melee class.

hydra_ex
12-17-2009, 07:02 PM
It also costs you DMIV (if you ever land a +4 tome or went 17 base cha at build time), DSIII (another 2D6 of damage on every DS - 9D6 vs 7D6 for DSII) and possibly ESIV (the compendium doesn't include it under enhancments, so I can't be certain) so quite a bit more DPS all in all.

Evasion with paladin saves is still a nice thing to have for surviving and helps in particular since paladins spread their build points pretty thin, often resulting in lower con than a comparably built melee toon of another evasion lacking melee class.

IMO, the DPS increase and weapon versatility far outweighs the evasion, unless you're a really tanky build.

Guildmaster_Kadish
12-17-2009, 07:13 PM
Favored Soul: Splash or no splash, does not really matter. The +2 CHA from the capstone is OK, but FvS have enough sp already.

This is the only one I'd really disagree on... infinite free heals and constant 10 dr is nothing to scoff at. The monk splash is decent, but I certainly wouldn't do any other sort of splash.

hydra_ex
12-17-2009, 07:15 PM
This is the only one I'd really disagree on... infinite free heals and constant 10 dr is nothing to scoff at. The monk splash is decent, but I certainly wouldn't do any other sort of splash.

A tempest elf holds my interest, as do various other builds. Haven't got around to one yet, though.

Twerpp
12-17-2009, 10:44 PM
FvS dont need evasion at all. 10dr makes your overall damage taken in quests a lot lower. 40 resistance, full reflex save progression, self save buffs, self protections, and self healing for one capstone even unlimited self healing. I'd never put evasion on a FvS...maybe a battlecleric who needed the 2 feats from monk, the only exception. Survivability would have absolutely nothing to do with the choice.

Mithran
12-17-2009, 10:50 PM
It also costs you DMIV (if you ever land a +4 tome or went 17 base cha at build time), DSIII (another 2D6 of damage on every DS - 9D6 vs 7D6 for DSII) and possibly ESIV (the compendium doesn't include it under enhancments, so I can't be certain) so quite a bit more DPS all in all.

Evasion with paladin saves is still a nice thing to have for surviving and helps in particular since paladins spread their build points pretty thin, often resulting in lower con than a comparably built melee toon of another evasion lacking melee class.

Let's not overstate matters, here. I don't really use DS or DM, but my ESIV's are very nice:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2446697&postcount=19

She's no longer KotC; she's Defender, but I'm still delighted with this build.

excess
12-17-2009, 11:32 PM
Let's not overstate matters, here. I don't really use DS or DM, but my ESIV's are very nice:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2446697&postcount=19

She's no longer KotC; she's Defender, but I'm still delighted with this build.

You "don't really use" DM? On a DPS paladin it should be constantly on - you certainly get enough charges for it to be up when fighting anything important... and DS? Even at lvl6, in spite of a tiny HP pool, I still spammed the **** out that ability on any boss fight I wasn't soloing (and if I was, the only thing holding me back were my LoH charges).

In any case, I'm not sure what I was overstating. If anything my post was conciliatory. I doubt anyone could argue that paladins usually have higher con than most other melee toons built without evasion? Or that paladin saves aren't amazing all around and thus capable of gaining quite a bit from evasion?

Rasczak
12-18-2009, 01:09 AM
this is a question that needs to be asked when there are more capstones.

Each build is different and not everyone splashes just for evasion. If there were more capstones than say 10% melee alacrity or +2 Cha etc etc then it would make people stop and think about mc'ing a lot more. As it is right now capstones are more of a little perk than build considerations :/

The PrE's have way more say than a capstone

Kriogen
12-18-2009, 02:31 AM
I'm multi-class-o-holic. I can't think 'pure class'. The only capstone that would persuade me to go 20 pure would be Wizards one.

Oh, and capstones 'competition' is not just Evasion. In most cases Evasion comes from Rogue 2 or Monk 2. So it's Evasion and skills or feats.

Mithran
12-19-2009, 07:23 AM
You "don't really use" DM? On a DPS paladin it should be constantly on - you certainly get enough charges for it to be up when fighting anything important... and DS? Even at lvl6, in spite of a tiny HP pool, I still spammed the **** out that ability on any boss fight I wasn't soloing (and if I was, the only thing holding me back were my LoH charges).

In any case, I'm not sure what I was overstating. If anything my post was conciliatory. I doubt anyone could argue that paladins usually have higher con than most other melee toons built without evasion? Or that paladin saves aren't amazing all around and thus capable of gaining quite a bit from evasion?

I'm just thinking about your having said (I thought) that you'd be forced to sac DMIV for Evasion while I'm still hoping to eventually have it. To me, it's just a question of the Paladin capstone (the extra dps) and I'm probably looking for reinforcement that it was a worthwhile decision to have gone with 2 Rogue. I'm happy with the build regardless and wouldn't change anything if I had to do it again, but I'm black and blue from defending my choices of Drow and Paladin rolls, here. It wasn't my intention to be confrontational and I apologize if my post appeared that way.

My girl's a Defender PrE, now, and I'm delighted with the roll all the way around.

Dragavon
12-19-2009, 09:23 AM
I'm multi-class-o-holic. I can't think 'pure class'. The only capstone that would persuade me to go 20 pure would be Wizards one.

/signed :D