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View Full Version : New Rogue Advice Please :)



DeStijl
12-17-2009, 02:49 PM
Super noob guy here, coming from decades of EverQuest on the VZ server. I'm interested in bringin' my rogue, Delito, over to DDO and would love to create a build I can have fun with as much as benefit a party. My preference would be to do as much damage as possible but at the same time open enough traps to be able to do some good for my team and then still be able to utilize wands to heal myself & others. I've been finding & reading guides, but they seem to be rather biased or contain incomplete knowledge in all the rogue paths/combos; and I've done quite a bit of reading on the rogue boards- especially on what some of the seemingly very knowledgeable players (i.e. Impaqt) had to say- but some of the game terminology there escapes me and I therefore find my questions unanswered.

And so! I turn to you all. Based on what I've described up above, what build would you recommend most for me? I currently have a human assassin in Korthos, but I can easily start anew. Delito was a human back in the day, but he's undergone some pretty strange changes, so changing race wouldn't be so terrible and I'm more than interested in hearing what y'all think the best race would be for what I'm looking to accomplish.


Thanks a million,

-DeStijl

jkm
12-17-2009, 03:38 PM
in a thread down below i discuss some of the pros/cons of a str based build. i personally only use humans for my rogues. although not as good as they were with the old enhancement system, they bring some nice things to the table if you want a diverse character.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=220096

traps - as long as you have a 12ish int and max ranks in search/spot/disable device/open lock you should be golden for 95% of the traps in the game. gear will be the biggest drawback.

dps - rogues by nature have a ton of dps. a 19 rogue can easily get 10d6 + 20 per swing from sneak attack damage alone. no other class can sustain that kind of base damage per swing. the trick is knowing how to maximize that dps without being pounded into goo. this is what makes rogues so tough to play.

umd - rogues typically cna get this high enough to wand whip. heal scrolls are within reach as well.

natakeu
12-17-2009, 03:51 PM
Super noob guy here, coming from decades of EverQuest on the VZ server. I'm interested in bringin' my rogue, Delito, over to DDO and would love to create a build I can have fun with as much as benefit a party. My preference would be to do as much damage as possible but at the same time open enough traps to be able to do some good for my team and then still be able to utilize wands to heal myself & others. I've been finding & reading guides, but they seem to be rather biased or contain incomplete knowledge in all the rogue paths/combos; and I've done quite a bit of reading on the rogue boards- especially on what some of the seemingly very knowledgeable players (i.e. Impaqt) had to say- but some of the game terminology there escapes me and I therefore find my questions unanswered.

And so! I turn to you all. Based on what I've described up above, what build would you recommend most for me? I currently have a human assassin in Korthos, but I can easily start anew. Delito was a human back in the day, but he's undergone some pretty strange changes, so changing race wouldn't be so terrible and I'm more than interested in hearing what y'all think the best race would be for what I'm looking to accomplish.


Thanks a million,

-DeStijl

Best advice I can give you is to go to http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO/DDOCharGen.html and download a copy of the character generator. It will help you decide what stats where/quantity/feats per what you put into it. Once you come up with a final idea post a copy of it here on the forums for critique. You will generate alot of responses.

Just remember STR = DPS outside of your Sneak Attacks Dex = Reflex Saves vs Traps & Spells Int = your skill list how many/how good your search/disable device is.

DeStijl
12-18-2009, 11:54 AM
thanks guys. dLing the generator to see what I can put together and i'll follow up on the other thread you linked, jkm.

JStone
12-18-2009, 02:00 PM
i would definetly recomend a 13rog/6rang/1monk this will get you the rog skills and sneak attacks from the rog as well as the 2weapon fighting archery and healing wands of the ranger the monk is an afterthought it provides a free feat and some nice resists...

youll basically be a rogue so remember to keep DD, Search, Spot, and UMD Maxed...other thoughts would be Hide and Sneak, tumble, balance and Diplomacy (used to reduce aggro like in EQ)

the other choice to make is whether you want a STR based rog(good sustainable damage even without sneak attacks), or dex based rog (better AC and reflex saves, use weapon finesse to make dex your chance to hit)

you can go either Drow for some nice bonuses to dex and intel, as well as rapier enhancements

or Human for the extra feat and skill points (good for strength based rog)

or Halfling which basically everything about the halfling is designed to make rogues better

DeStijl
12-19-2009, 02:22 PM
i would definetly recomend a 13rog/6rang/1monk this will get you the rog skills and sneak attacks from the rog as well as the 2weapon fighting archery and healing wands of the ranger the monk is an afterthought it provides a free feat and some nice resists...

youll basically be a rogue so remember to keep DD, Search, Spot, and UMD Maxed...other thoughts would be Hide and Sneak, tumble, balance and Diplomacy (used to reduce aggro like in EQ)

the other choice to make is whether you want a STR based rog(good sustainable damage even without sneak attacks), or dex based rog (better AC and reflex saves, use weapon finesse to make dex your chance to hit)

you can go either Drow for some nice bonuses to dex and intel, as well as rapier enhancements

or Human for the extra feat and skill points (good for strength based rog)

or Halfling which basically everything about the halfling is designed to make rogues better


Thanks J. So far I'm a lvl 3 human assassin in SR and planned on going for the Str build, so I think I'm on the right track.

1) When do you suggest I take the lvls in Ranger & Monk? Lvl 14..? I'd basically like to start using wands asap, but w/o sacrificing anything important I should be getting in Rogue first.

2) I'm a little confused about Enhancements. People say to "keep such & such maxed", but as far as Enhs go, I only see the ability able to be trained in/learned once; how do I put *more* emphasis on an Enh?

3) So far I've been trying to play it safe and went for what I thought I'd *definitely* need (but now I'm not so sure from what you listed as priorities, haha).

Currently Rank 13 with the following:

Action Boost: Damage
Action Boost: Haste
Faster Sneaking
Sneak Attack Accuracy
Sneak Attack Training
Bluff
DD
Hide
Search

with 1 available point yet to be utilized. I had asked people which I should take first, Search or Spot, and their answer was Search 'since I would start to know where the traps are after my first time doing a quest'. However, do you think I should definitely take Spot? Anything you see that I shouldn't have taken or can suggest that I take asap?

Thanks again

JStone
12-20-2009, 08:17 AM
when people say to keep a certain skill "maxed" they are referring to skill points not enhancements usually.
most people will agree that using enhancements (or feats) to make skills better is a waste. simply make sure to put skill points into the skills i mentioned every level maxed refers to keeping them at the point where you cant put any more skill points into a skill. also bluff is not very useful.

if you are planning on going assasin you may need to rethink certain things. the special attacks from assasin can be resisted you add your rogue level and your INTEL to your ability ... so most assasins go with 18 levels of rogue and an intel of at least 14.

DasLurch
12-20-2009, 01:19 PM
I have a 13/6/1 build going atm, and I do enjoy it. It is not an assasin build or a Str build though. I opted for dex base, with power attack, Acrobat 2 and tempest 1. With all the different enhancements availible I have haste, attack, damage, saves, sprint, and ac boosts. I'm also running rather nice UMD score, very few problems with traps, and a ok ac, immunity to knockdows from the acrobat enhancements, and a boost to attack speed via the tempest set. It is a lot of hotbars, and gear to make things as sweet as it could be, but I am enjoying it very much.

I just threw that up there so the OP could have a different idea perhaps as to his options. As far as the assasin builds go, I'd just go straight rogue. If you feel the need to splash a class, Id take 2 ranger levels at 7 and 8. that will start your 2WF line and allow you to grab Imp 2WF at 9. Imp crit at 12, and GRtr 2WF at 15. I hope that helps some.

JStone
12-20-2009, 01:56 PM
exellent post

i like the idea of the 18rog 2 rang assasin that would probably suit the OP nicely.

DeStijl
12-21-2009, 01:54 PM
"also bluff is not very useful."

Really? I've been using bluff like crazy when I get aggroed, and it works pretty well every time. Should I reconsider and use Diplomacy instead? Is one point in Dip/Bluff okay, or should I put more?


"if you are planning on going assasin you may need to rethink certain things. the special attacks from assasin can be resisted you add your rogue level and your INTEL to your ability ... so most assasins go with 18 levels of rogue and an intel of at least 14."

Sorry but I don't really understand what you mean here. Rogue special attacks can be resisted if I do what exactly?


"If you feel the need to splash a class, Id take 2 ranger levels at 7 and 8. that will start your 2WF line and allow you to grab Imp 2WF at 9. Imp crit at 12, and GRtr 2WF at 15. I hope that helps some."

Thanks for your added input as well, Das. Will 2 lvls of Rgr give me what I need to use wands, or are you suggesting I stay away from that? (I'd prefer to be able to use them if possible) And would I want to take 2WF over dual wield as a rogue?

As for the other Enhs I mentioned- were they all good to put points into, or were any extraneous? Which of the following should be maxed out? Sorry if you've already answered this; I might not be understanding if you're using shorter names for them. =/ I'll put the assumed names for them in parentheses to make sure I'm on the same page. Please let me know if I'm wrong.

Action Boost: Damage ("Damage")
Action Boost: Haste ("Haste")
Faster Sneaking ("Sneak"?)
Sneak Attack Accuracy (?)
Sneak Attack (?)
Bluff
DD
Hide
Search

I also just put a point into "Subtle BS"



-Delito

(About to hit level 5 ^_^)

Kralgnax
12-21-2009, 02:07 PM
Will 2 lvls of Rgr give me what I need to use wands, or are you suggesting I stay away from that? That will get you cure light & moderate wounds wands with no UMD check. Serious is, IIRC UMD 24 or Ranger lvl 5 or 6.

Enhancements: I wouldn't sweat them - they're easily swapped out for 100 gold *(lvl^2), with a 3-day lockout. You need specific ones for you various PrEs, but can swap into those once you're ready to take the Enhancement if you prefer.

JStone
12-21-2009, 02:55 PM
yes there seems to a little confusion here ill try to clear up what i can, but you seem to have the gist of everything.

when i said rogue special attacks i was referring to the effects from assasin. assasin is a PrE that you can take as anhencement once you have 6 rogue levels, and some other enhancements such as rogue damage boost, and faster sneaking. assasins have an assasinate ability that they can use which has a DC that includes your rogue level and intel score so when you attempt to use assasinate (or other assasin special attacks) the monster has to roll a die to see if he saves and takes no effect.

when i refer to maxing a skill i am talking about skillpoints used to build up skills , NOT ENHANCEMENTS. Maxed skill refers to putting 4 points into a skill at level 1 and 1 point in each additional level. skills are things like bluff, diplomacy, balance, disable deveice, hide, Move silently (sometimes called Sneak).

i highly recomend making sure Disable Device, Search, Spot, and Use Magic Device (UMD) are maxed. also worth investing some points into are open lock, hide and move silently, tumble (at least one point) balance, jump diplomacy

Bluff is used to make mobs sneak attackable, if used when you have aggro you will be able to sneak attack but you will also take damage. it is mainly used for soloing when you cant shed aggro, because IF YOU DONT HAVE AGGRO ALL ATTACKS ARE SNEAK ATTACKS.
Diplomacy is used to shred aggro and should be maxed if planning to use it, if you succesfully shed the aggro the bad guys will attack another party member thus allowing you to sneak attack without taking the damage, also diplomacy has a shorter animation than bluff.

2wf and dual wielding are the same thing. you need to have the two weapon fighting feat in order to effectively use 2 weapons, if you do not have the oversized weapon feat use a light weapon such as a shortsword, handaxe, or light club in your offhand.

the benefits of ranger are great even with only 2 levels undead make a great favored enemy as they are common and can not be sneak attacked. the wands come in handy and the free 2wf feat is useful, 6 levels of ranger gets you more goodies but if you are planning on assasin it will effect your assasinate and stop you from getting 18 rogue levels required for assasin III.

as mentioned enhancements are not too worrisome as they can be changed but i recomend the ones required for assasin or acrobat (whichever line you prefer).
Also SKILL BOOST will get you a 20 second boost to all skills rather than having to put enhancement points into specific skills, thus allowing you to take things like racial toughness (if you have toughness feat, recomended) human adaptability for str or dex, and rogue dexterity. as well as the ones you have mentoned.

jkm
12-21-2009, 03:10 PM
Bluff is used to make mobs sneak attackable, if used when you have aggro you will be able to sneak attack but you will also take damage. it is mainly used for soloing when you cant shed aggro, because IF YOU DONT HAVE AGGRO ALL ATTACKS ARE SNEAK ATTACKS.


bluff's most powerful use is single pulling one mob out of a group from stealth.

jkm
12-21-2009, 03:31 PM
Action Boost: Damage ("Damage")
Action Boost: Haste ("Haste")
Faster Sneaking ("Sneak"?)
Sneak Attack Accuracy (?)
Sneak Attack (?)
Bluff
DD
Hide
Search

I also just put a point into "Subtle BS"



-Delito

(About to hit level 5 ^_^)

AB:Damage - prereq for assassin otherwise meh. the only time i really use it is while beating on portals in the shroud

AB:Haste - incredibly useful as one of the few ways that rogues can increase swings/minute. if you have room to take it to tier 4, it will give you 30% faster attack speed for 18 1/2 seconds at the cost of a second of no attacks

faster sneaking - meh, taste enhancement. some rogues i know love it (aeneas)

sneak attack accuracy - prereq for assassin - accuracy normally isn't a problem until epic

sneak attack training - prereq for assassin - one of the 2 prereqs that are actually useful. adding +12 damage isn't a bad thing (this used to be +8)

enhancements for bluff - um, no

enhancements for MS/Hide - 2 levels of each are required for assassin, don't take anymore

search - you shouldn't need these. as an assassin, you aren't going for the top 5% of traps, you are going for little floaty skulls.

DD - the only way i suggest this is if you are going to grab a level of wrack construct. being able to crit/sneak attack the portals in the first part of the shroud is worth 2 APs to me. tier 2 is questionable unless you have room.

subtle backstabbing - this is the other prereq that is useful. if you are str based, 3-4 levels are pretty much required. dex based may be able to get away with 2 levels, but most likely are going to need 3.

note: the need for this has changed over the years. when it first came out, my khopesh wielding rogue had to have all 4 tiers and let others attack something first to keep aggro off of me. with the addition of radiance in the shroud, i no longer had to worry about trash mobs, but bosses were still a killer. it hasn't been until the latest changes (fighter/barb PrE, BAB to swing speed, etc) that i've noticed that other classes could keep aggro from me. now, when my speed picks up fully buffed and madstoning i still have issues staring at the PF's belly button.

as for how it works. lets say you are doing 85 a swing normal/150 on crits. a 40% threat reduction will mean that the thing you are attacking only recognizes you doing 51 swing (85*.6)/90 crits (150*.6).

DeStijl
12-21-2009, 03:51 PM
"you guys effing rock" is an understatement. gonna look over this a few times again closely when i'm in game (at work atm), but this info cleared things up a whole lot. i'll respond thereafter.