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View Full Version : Again with the DDO store Turbine points shenanigans...



Kromize
12-17-2009, 06:22 AM
p.s.- It seems some viewers of this forum have a working intellect that matches my humanoid ancestors from thousands, if not tens of thousands of years ago. I will no longer try to explain my reasoning, as you have proven to me that you will not accept the words of somebody who seems to speak more radically. I bid thee farewell from this thread.


http://www.ddo.com/media/CropperCapture%5B91%5D.jpg

Really? What's the deal with the "Bonus Points"? Right now your only using it at a term to deceive people. They aren't truly bonus points unless you implement a mechanic that adds on extra bonus points as a bonus for doing something. Please stop using your "Bonus Points" BS and say it straight up. IE: "4,300 Turbine Points to use in the DDO store." Is it so hard?

If you want to do bonus points, add 100 Bonus Points for every $5 spent in the store. So if you buy the 4300 point "bundle", and pay 48.75, you get 900 bonus points.
And do away with the current system to purchase points. Allow people to type in a number, like 415, to buy 415 turbine points. Or, say you need 5 more points to get something, let them buy 5 points. And after you do that, fix the prices in your store. (:



Please use the term "bonus" correctly, and stop trying to deceive people. At this rate, it's only a matter of time before somebody tries to sue you for deceptive/false advertising.

Nott
12-17-2009, 06:45 AM
They're using the term correctly.

300 TP costs $5.00, but you'll get 315 instead of 300.
1200 TP costs $19.50, but you'll get 1550 instead of 1200.

It's not difficult math. You might not like the points per dollar ratio (I know I don't) but it's still a bonus beyond an even crappier points per dollar ratio. This table they've created does not deceive anyone able to read. I don't believe you feel deceived by it, I believe you're simply venting because like me, you think they overcharge. Of course, if the market is willing to bear their price, I'm wrong and they don't overcharge.

Robi3.0
12-17-2009, 07:11 AM
Is is more then likely an accounting thing, maybe. Basically what they have done is standardized the per point cost of Turbine posts.

If you take the point from each package minus the bonus and divide that by the dollar cost of the package you will get basically the same number(.6).

Then to make each package more appealing they have added bonus points.


I understand why the did it. I am more upset with them doing away with the 900 point package.. :(

GreyRogue
12-17-2009, 07:20 AM
Is is more then likely an accounting thing, maybe. Basically what they have done is standardized the per point cost of Turbine posts.

If you take the point from each package minus the bonus and divide that by the dollar cost of the package you will get basically the same number(.6).

Then to make each package more appealing they have added bonus points.


I understand why the did it. I am more upset with them doing away with the 900 point package.. :(

Exactly. Each package costs about 1.6 cents per TP and then gets bonus TP added on as an incentive to buy more at once. Nothing deceptive about that.

Kromize
12-17-2009, 09:46 AM
Exactly. Each package costs about 1.6 cents per TP and then gets bonus TP added on as an incentive to buy more at once. Nothing deceptive about that.

Right, nothing deceptive at all. It's not like they force you to pick from one of these point "packages", and then say they're giving you bonus points.

All they have here are packages, where you get more points for the money as you spend more money. There's no "bonus" anywhere.

Bonus : something in addition to what is expected or strictly due

It would be a bonus if they let you pick how many points you want to buy, and give you extra points in addition to how many you bought, because you bought that many. This is not what they are doing, what they are doing is advertising so many points, and then claiming that you bought less than was advertised, and further state that you got extra points as a bonus, when in reality, there is no bonus, you bought what was advertised.

A bonus is "since your buying this, were going to give you this as well". Not "You have to buy this, which comes with this "bonus", and you can only choose from each of these "bundles" which all have "bonuses", see how nice we are, giving these "bonuses" out with everything"...

Lithic
12-17-2009, 09:52 AM
Right, nothing deceptive at all. It's not like they force you to pick from one of these point "packages", and then say they're giving you bonus points.

All they have here are packages, where you get more points for the money as you spend more money. There's no "bonus" anywhere.

Bonus : something in addition to what is expected or strictly due

It would be a bonus if they let you pick how many points you want to buy, and give you extra points in addition to how many you bought, because you bought that many. This is not what they are doing, what they are doing is advertising so many points, and then claiming that you bought less than was advertised, and further state that you got extra points as a bonus, when in reality, there is no bonus, you bought what was advertised.

A bonus is "since your buying this, were going to give you this as well". Not "You have to buy this, which comes with this "bonus", and you can only choose from each of these "bundles" which all have "bonuses", see how nice we are, giving these "bonuses" out with everything"...

Why is this deceptive? It could not be more simply spelled out. Look at the left column. It tells you how many points you get. Look at the right column, theres the price. The middle column gives you a breakdown. Anyone who gets tricked by this system shouldn't walk and chew gum at the same time for their own safety.

jambajuicey
12-17-2009, 10:10 AM
Why is this deceptive? It could not be more simply spelled out. Look at the left column. It tells you how many points you get. Look at the right column, theres the price. The middle column gives you a breakdown. Anyone who gets tricked by this system shouldn't walk and chew gum at the same time for their own safety.

There is nothing deceptive about this at all, its very clear - though it makes for a humorous read!

Alavatar
12-17-2009, 10:14 AM
I'm going to pistol whip the next guy to say "shenanigans"!

Letrii
12-17-2009, 10:43 AM
shinagens

Natulyre
12-17-2009, 10:44 AM
I think Kromize is deceiving.

Mudcnd
12-17-2009, 11:07 AM
I'm going to pistol whip the next guy to say "shenanigans"!

Love that movie! ;)

Nott
12-17-2009, 03:14 PM
Right, nothing deceptive at all. It's not like they force you to pick from one of these point "packages", and then say they're giving you bonus points.

All they have here are packages, where you get more points for the money as you spend more money. There's no "bonus" anywhere.

Bonus : something in addition to what is expected or strictly due

It would be a bonus if they let you pick how many points you want to buy, and give you extra points in addition to how many you bought, because you bought that many. This is not what they are doing, what they are doing is advertising so many points, and then claiming that you bought less than was advertised, and further state that you got extra points as a bonus, when in reality, there is no bonus, you bought what was advertised.

A bonus is "since your buying this, were going to give you this as well". Not "You have to buy this, which comes with this "bonus", and you can only choose from each of these "bundles" which all have "bonuses", see how nice we are, giving these "bonuses" out with everything"...So, in other words, you have your panties in a bunch over a game of semantics? Since the strict definition of bonus is more like "something beyond that which you expected", and since you expect these additional points, you think you're being deceived?

You're not being deceived, you're being pendantic. A word means what the majority of people perceive it to mean (and if you doubt that, please explain to me why "ginormous" is now in the dictionary). I would venture a guess that the majority of people accept that these TP are bonus points, and that you are in a very small minority.

When you're done shaking your cane at the neighborhood kids that are on your lawn, log into the game and have a good time -- with or without your TP and with or without a bonus.

Impaqt
12-17-2009, 03:24 PM
This is simply the way things are advertised nowadays. Theres nothing Deceptive or anything worth pursuing any legal action over.

Its clearly laid out how much you pay and how many points you receive for that purchase.

THe fact that these are the packages that are available is just that.

Every try going into McDonalds and ordering 37 French Fries? (Not 37 Orders.. 37 Fries)

You get whats in the "Package" for how much they charge for it.

Eelpout
12-17-2009, 03:42 PM
This is simply the way things are advertised nowadays. Theres nothing Deceptive or anything worth pursuing any legal action over.

Its clearly laid out how much you pay and how many points you receive for that purchase.

THe fact that these are the packages that are available is just that.

Every try going into McDonalds and ordering 37 French Fries? (Not 37 Orders.. 37 Fries)

You get whats in the "Package" for how much they charge for it.

Yeah, but you should see the fit that gets pitched when there are only 35!!

Egads!

Kromize
12-17-2009, 11:48 PM
Every try going into McDonalds and ordering 37 French Fries? (Not 37 Orders.. 37 Fries)

You get whats in the "Package" for how much they charge for it.

These are points to purchase things, not fries. If I were to go to a gaming center, I am able to get however many tokens I want. I don't get packages of them.

What I'm saying is: There are not any bonus points. There are points that are part of the "bundle", and are claimed to be bonus points. They aren't bonus, they are a part of the "bundle".

A true bonus would be if they gave you extra when you spend so much money on points.

Yes, it may just be the way it's advertised, but it's still a load of BS when you are forced to choose from so many points. Just let people buy how many points they want, and then give them bonuses after spending so much. For example: If I buy 475 one day, and then a few days later buy 1000 more, say they give me a bonus because I spent so many $ within so many days. That's a bonus.

Understand? Comprehend? Please?

Lithic
12-18-2009, 08:40 AM
These are points to purchase things, not fries. If I were to go to a gaming center, I am able to get however many tokens I want. I don't get packages of them.

What I'm saying is: There are not any bonus points. There are points that are part of the "bundle", and are claimed to be bonus points. They aren't bonus, they are a part of the "bundle".

A true bonus would be if they gave you extra when you spend so much money on points.
Understand? Comprehend? Please?

YOU are the one not understanding. As someone else pointed out, points have a base rate of roughly 0.6 cents each. This is for the 5$ for 300pts bundle. If you look at the "pre bonus" amounts, the price drops slightly with the higher bundles (bulk prices if you will).

After this, Turbine gives you a bonus for "spending so much on points". Spend 5$, you get 15 bonus points for a total of 315 for 5$. Spend 48.75 to get 3000 pts and you get a bonus of 1300pts, to total 4300pts for 48.75.

Understand? Comprehend? Please?

As for why you can't buy 1837.2 pts at a time, stores sell most things by item/package. The exception is usually food that can be sold by the gram/kilogram/litre/whatever. Refering to someone else's reference, think of buying fries at mcdonalds. You can get a small, medium, large, or extra large. Each "bundle" of fries has a certain amount, and you cannot get in-between amounts. They charge you a certain number for each fry, and give you a bonus amount of fries if you buy the bigger sizes.

So... do you want a small, medium, large, or extra large serving of Turbine points?

Come on guy, it doesn't take a Kalashtar to understand this.

Arlith
12-18-2009, 09:36 AM
These are points to purchase things, not fries. If I were to go to a gaming center, I am able to get however many tokens I want. I don't get packages of them.

What I'm saying is: There are not any bonus points. There are points that are part of the "bundle", and are claimed to be bonus points. They aren't bonus, they are a part of the "bundle".

A true bonus would be if they gave you extra when you spend so much money on points.

Yes, it may just be the way it's advertised, but it's still a load of BS when you are forced to choose from so many points. Just let people buy how many points they want, and then give them bonuses after spending so much. For example: If I buy 475 one day, and then a few days later buy 1000 more, say they give me a bonus because I spent so many $ within so many days. That's a bonus.

Understand? Comprehend? Please?

If you really must have it explained to you...

It is as easy as ABC.

They were charging AAA for BBB TP.

People were not buying enough.

So they added CCC bonus points to the packages so when when people BBB TP for AAA they got CCC bonus points.

If at some time in the future the amount of TP purchased starts to exceed desires, they can remove CCC from every package of BBB TP bought for AAA and no one can complain about no longer being able to spend AAA for BBB TP, because the they did not change the amount of TP bought for AAA, they only removed the CCC bonus points.

And someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the CCC bonus points came out with TR. So it is possible they were hoping to encourage people to TR by allowing them to do so for free if they bought BBB (3000) TP for AAA (48.75) and receiving CCC (1300) bonus points (oddly enough the cost of a piece of True Wood I believe).

Eelpout
12-18-2009, 05:53 PM
These are points to purchase things, not fries. If I were to go to a gaming center, I am able to get however many tokens I want. I don't get packages of them.

What I'm saying is: There are not any bonus points. There are points that are part of the "bundle", and are claimed to be bonus points. They aren't bonus, they are a part of the "bundle".

A true bonus would be if they gave you extra when you spend so much money on points.

Yes, it may just be the way it's advertised, but it's still a load of BS when you are forced to choose from so many points. Just let people buy how many points they want, and then give them bonuses after spending so much. For example: If I buy 475 one day, and then a few days later buy 1000 more, say they give me a bonus because I spent so many $ within so many days. That's a bonus.

Understand? Comprehend? Please?

To use your gaming center example; If your gaming center offered 1 token for $1, 6 tokens for $5, or 12 tokens for $10, would you say that the extra tokens(the extra 1 in the $5 or the extra 2 in the $10) are not bonus tokens, but just part of the bundle?

You are being rewarded with more for spending more in one single purchase.

Kromize
12-18-2009, 06:06 PM
To use your gaming center example; If your gaming center offered 1 token for $1, 6 tokens for $5, or 12 tokens for $10, would you say that the extra tokens(the extra 1 in the $5 or the extra 2 in the $10) are not bonus tokens, but just part of the bundle?
You're correct, I would say that the extra tokens are not bonus tokens, but in fact just as you have stated, extra tokes.

extra a : more than is due, usual, or necessary


You are being rewarded with more for spending more in one single purchase.
You are being rewarded with more [than is due, usual, or necessary] for spending more in one single purchase.

As for bonus: something in addition to what is expected or strictly due.

This would be the addition after buying what you have bought, getting additional points to what you expected, a bonus, not just extra points as part of the package.


Apparently you don't understand the concept of prepackaged "bonuses" versus true bonuses that you get for spending so much money. It's different. What they are doing with the prepackaged versions are giving more points for the cost, and calling it bonus. It's just like buying bulk, you get more for the money when you buy bulk.

They advertise this extra bulk as a bonus, it's not truly a bonus to what you buy, because you buy it as the package...you don;'t get bonus in addition to what you get with the package.


I am not going to reply to any more of your incomprehensively made replies. I have stated my points, it is now up to you to comprehend what I am saying, as well as comprehend the definition of bonus I am going by. Unless of course I am mistaken and Turbine has it's own definition for "bonus"?

GreenGurgler
12-18-2009, 06:46 PM
You're correct, I would say that the extra tokens are not bonus tokens, but in fact just as you have stated, extra tokes.

extra a : more than is due, usual, or necessary


You are being rewarded with more [than is due, usual, or necessary] for spending more in one single purchase.

As for bonus: something in addition to what is expected or strictly due.

This would be the addition after buying what you have bought, getting additional points to what you expected, a bonus, not just extra points as part of the package.


Apparently you don't understand the concept of prepackaged "bonuses" versus true bonuses that you get for spending so much money. It's different. What they are doing with the prepackaged versions are giving more points for the cost, and calling it bonus. It's just like buying bulk, you get more for the money when you buy bulk.

They advertise this extra bulk as a bonus, it's not truly a bonus to what you buy, because you buy it as the package...you don;'t get bonus in addition to what you get with the package.

You sir, are intellectually dishonest. You try and persuade that we are being suckered by accepting the termBONUS when it should be an EXTRA in your mind. You even go so far as to quote MW dictionary on the definition of EXTRA to try and point out how it is NOT the same thing as BONUS. The dishonesty is that you intentionally did not post the MW definition of BONUS because that would have exposed your whole argument as nothing but a fraud. Let me fill in the blanks for you:


extra: 1 a : more than is due, usual, or necessary : additional <extra work> b : subject to an additional charge <dessert is extra>
2 : superior <extra quality>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/extra

bonus: : something in addition to what is expected or strictly due: as a : money or an equivalent given in addition to an employee's usual compensation b : a premium (as of stock) given by a corporation to a purchaser of its securities, to a promoter, or to an employee c : a government payment to war veterans d : a sum in excess of salary given an athlete for signing with a team
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bonus

I highlighted the sections of the definitions which point out that there first and most commonly interpreted uses are nearly identical.




A true bonus would be if they gave you extra when you spend so much money on points.

OK, I'll bite. Lets say I want to purchase store points from Turbine before this offering of bonus points and lets say I wanted to purchase 3000 TP. I would pay $48.75. I am buying exactly how many I want.

But hold on, if I buy those points NOW (during the promotion), for my $48.75 (which a few weeks back would have gotten me 3000TP), I will get not 3000TP but 4300TP!!! A BONUS or extra of 1300TP more than is due for the price (based on the above accepted definitions using the spoken English language). I am buying exactly how many I want, but in this instance, I am getting more than is due.


Understand? Comprehend? Please?


I am not going to reply to any more of your incomprehensively made replies. I have stated my points, it is now up to you to comprehend what I am saying, as well as comprehend the definition of bonus I am going by. Unless of course I am mistaken and Turbine has it's own definition for "bonus"?

Nice attempt at trying to claim you wont reply anymore because were to thick to understand. What would have been honest is for you to state: I am not going to reply to anymore replies as I have made a faulty premise which I cannot logically defend. I will stop inserting my foot any further into my mouth as I do not like the taste anymore.


Understand? Comprehend? Please?

:rolleyes:

Eelpout
12-18-2009, 07:44 PM
You're correct, I would say that the extra tokens are not bonus tokens, but in fact just as you have stated, extra tokes.

extra a : more than is due, usual, or necessary


You are being rewarded with more [than is due, usual, or necessary] for spending more in one single purchase.

As for bonus: something in addition to what is expected or strictly due.

This would be the addition after buying what you have bought, getting additional points to what you expected, a bonus, not just extra points as part of the package.


Apparently you don't understand the concept of prepackaged "bonuses" versus true bonuses that you get for spending so much money. It's different. What they are doing with the prepackaged versions are giving more points for the cost, and calling it bonus. It's just like buying bulk, you get more for the money when you buy bulk.

They advertise this extra bulk as a bonus, it's not truly a bonus to what you buy, because you buy it as the package...you don;'t get bonus in addition to what you get with the package.


I am not going to reply to any more of your incomprehensively made replies. I have stated my points, it is now up to you to comprehend what I am saying, as well as comprehend the definition of bonus I am going by. Unless of course I am mistaken and Turbine has it's own definition for "bonus"?

I realize you stated you would not reply to any more posts, but since I am incapable of comprehending you, I shall ask you one more question:

Would you prefer that Turbine list it as a specific 300 points for $5 dollars and then add the bonuses they are giving out (but not really giving out) after words? So you would get 15 bonus points when you buy 300, 350 bonus points for purchasing 1200 (though you are already getting a price break for buying in bulk i.e. paying $19.50 for the original 1200 not $20) etc.?

GreyRogue
12-18-2009, 07:57 PM
Even if you get your panties in a bunch about the word "bonus", there is still no deception here. It is very clear how many points you get for how many dollars, even though Turbine breaks up the points into "normal" points and "bonus" points. What is the big deal? :confused:

Kromize
12-19-2009, 01:37 AM
I realize you stated you would not reply to any more posts, but since I am incapable of comprehending you, I shall ask you one more question:
You don't understand English? What I typed meant that you who replied didn't comprehend what I posted correctly.

[/quote]Would you prefer that Turbine list it as a specific 300 points for $5 dollars and then add the bonuses they are giving out (but not really giving out) after words? So you would get 15 bonus points when you buy 300, 350 bonus points for purchasing 1200 (though you are already getting a price break for buying in bulk i.e. paying $19.50 for the original 1200 not $20) etc.?[/quote]

No, I would prefer turbine let me buy however many points I want, and then add in a bonus. Like I said before, I want to type out numbers, say if I want 93 points, let me type '93' and buy 93 points. Then give me bonus points on top of that if thye want to use promotions.

p.s.- It seems some viewers of this forum have a working intellect that matches my humanoid ancestors from thousands, if not tens of thousands of years ago. I will no longer try to explain my reasoning, as you have proven to me that you will not accept the words of somebody who seems to speak more radically. I bid thee farewell from this thread.

Eelpout
12-19-2009, 08:43 AM
You don't understand English? What I typed meant that you who replied didn't comprehend what I posted correctly.


Would you prefer that Turbine list it as a specific 300 points for $5 dollars and then add the bonuses they are giving out (but not really giving out) after words? So you would get 15 bonus points when you buy 300, 350 bonus points for purchasing 1200 (though you are already getting a price break for buying in bulk i.e. paying $19.50 for the original 1200 not $20) etc?

No, I would prefer turbine let me buy however many points I want, and then add in a bonus. Like I said before, I want to type out numbers, say if I want 93 points, let me type '93' and buy 93 points. Then give me bonus points on top of that if thye want to use promotions.

p.s.- It seems some viewers of this forum have a working intellect that matches my humanoid ancestors from thousands, if not tens of thousands of years ago. I will no longer try to explain my reasoning, as you have proven to me that you will not accept the words of somebody who seems to speak more radically. I bid thee farewell from this thread

You have such cute replies. I sure wish we could turn your frown upside down there sunshine. Either way, you just keep shaking your fist at the Sun and yelling for darkness. At least that way you will get your wish some of the time.

GreenGurgler
12-19-2009, 11:38 AM
p.s.- It seems some viewers of this forum have a working intellect that matches my humanoid ancestors from thousands, if not tens of thousands of years ago. I will no longer try to explain my reasoning, as you have proven to me that you will not accept the words of somebody who seems to speak more radically. I bid thee farewell from this thread.

LOL, this is so rich. Again with the deflections.

"I cant articulate a reasonable and well thought out point so I will bash everyone else and claim the higher ground"

LOL, stop already, just stop. :D:D

Every post you make just confirms the absurdity of your position.

Accept that the game does not work the way you want and your view is not shared by many and move on. Save the rips and cuts because you are the only one here who cannot post a credible, well reasoned thought.

Because I want it too is not a valid argument for why something should be changed. Most transactions do not work the way you describe them. You sound like the characters in the Capitol One build your own credit card commercials (choose your credit line, choose your own rewards, choose your own fluffy bunny picture, you are a special little snowflake jst like everyone else, the world should bow to you).

Your whole post would have gone a different direction if you had stated your original goal: to let you buy as many or as little points as you desire and add your own bonus. Instead, you choose to go on the attack of Turbine and try and accuse them of dishonesty and us of stupidity for not wanting it the way you do. You setup this original post as an antagonistic assault when it should have been an open discussion

"hey, I was thinking of a great way for Turbine to sell points, what do you all think..." instead of "Hey Turbine Sucks, your all suckers, they are deceptive and trying to mislead you on points, do things my way blah blah blah...".

You set up a flawed premise in the OP and have done a miserable job defending it beyond selfish desire.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Arlith
12-19-2009, 02:07 PM
As for bonus: something in addition to what is expected or strictly due.

What is strictly due - 3000 TP for 48.75.

Something in addition to what is strictly due - 1300 TP.

That's a bonus. The fact that you know about it ahead of time does not make it "extra" and not a "bonus".


I realize you stated you would not reply to any more posts, but since I am incapable of comprehending you, I shall ask you one more question:



You don't understand English? What I typed meant that you who replied didn't comprehend what I posted correctly.

LOL... just LOL.


No, I would prefer turbine let me buy however many points I want, and then add in a bonus. Like I said before, I want to type out numbers, say if I want 93 points, let me type '93' and buy 93 points. Then give me bonus points on top of that if thye want to use promotions.

Turbine points are not gaoline. You do not buy them at the pump. It sounds to me like you really aren't mad at the bonus at all. You are just ****ed that you have to buy at least 300 TP when you want to go to the store and say, "gimme 23 TP."

Ganolyn
03-25-2010, 06:48 AM
OK, waaaaaaay late on this thread, but just thought I'd point out that giving the ability to buy small amounts of points would not be good thing just for the fact that every transaction with a credit card costs Turbine money. They can't make anything on what amounts to a five cent sale.

Deusxmachina
03-26-2010, 12:51 PM
OK, waaaaaaay late on this thread, but just thought I'd point out that giving the ability to buy small amounts of points would not be good thing just for the fact that every transaction with a credit card costs Turbine money. They can't make anything on what amounts to a five cent sale.

Aren't credit card costs generally a % and not a fixed amount?

Either way, nice points sale for this weekend.

JayDubya
03-26-2010, 12:58 PM
Aren't credit card costs generally a % and not a fixed amount?

Either way, nice points sale for this weekend.

It's usually a fixed fee per purchase plus a percentage. Like: $0.50 + 3%

I suspect this is one of the reasons Apple batches up song purchases and bills you for them all at one time.

IronClan
03-31-2010, 10:32 AM
If you want to feel guilty the next time you buy a soda from the corner mom and pop store (or any small local store) and pay with your card; go check out how much a small merchant account costs.

.50 cents? Maybe McDonalds gets that, small business' pay as much as a couple dollars PER TRANSACTION... plus a %

This is why you will often see "minimum $10 on credit card purchases" signs at the checkout register.

And yes, that means that many small shops loose money on small purchases... but not as much revenue as they lose by not allowing credit card purchases at all. A lot of people wont return to a store that doesn't take cards, a lot of us just don't carry cash any more...

BTW this even applies to check cards where the "credit" option is used... this is why some places require you to choose the debit option (and type your pin in) COSTCO is a notable example... Debit does not have the fees (or at least not the same ones)