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MilleniumEagle
12-13-2009, 10:15 PM
ok so i am a big fan of the table top Dungeons and dragons, and I love playing as Warlock/Sorcerer/Wizard so I can prestige class into Eldritch thurge and Ulimate Magis. I began playing ddo for many months now and I have been trying various character builds and I so far I have found joy in playing sorcerer/wizard multiclass characters, I would like to hear the good and bad about such characters once again, and if there are possibly any suggestions to maximize its power as well. I would like to hear a good solid debate about this class, however, instead of just saying its bad or good, I would like you to provide proof of your claim so that it is more relavent and has more significance, Happy Debate! ^_^

However now, I am adding the debate over a certain PrE I am suggesting for ddo, after all the kinks get irond out after the debate on the forums, If anybody would be willing to sponsor this PrE on the suggestion forums that would be great and here is my suggestion, this class currently uses all the mechanics from ddo.

Inputs on both are greatly appreciated ^_^

The Ultimate Magus

I took this template from the complete mage, and I altered it to best fit ddo, and allow multiclass arcanists a chance to shine

Ultimate Magi are Arcane spellcasters that blend the powers wizardry and Sorcery, While initially inhibits the arcane casters powers by requiring both sorcerer and wizard powers, at higher levels they are able to learn the higher level spells they would have missed out on had they not blended the two types together and their spells are just as powerful as a pure sorcerer or pure wizard. These are specialists of magic able to cast more spells between each rest as a pure wizard or sorcerer can (example: a sorcerer can cast 3 spells, wizard can cast 4, an ultimate magus of the same level would be able to cast 5 one more than the wizard). Due to this vast array of spell points and spells able to cast at comparable levels, the melee and fortitude strength of these characters is poor at best.

Ultimate Magus I (4 AP)
Prerequisites: cast 2nd level arcane spells from one class; cast 1st level arcane spells from the other. 1 Metamagic feat. Mental Toughness Feat, Arcane classes no more than 6 levels appart

Benefit: The lowest level arcane class can cast spells of a level equal to half the level of the highest level spell casting class. However the caster level of the lowest level class is the same as usual (Example: 4th level wizard/ 1st level sorcerer: the sorcerer class can cast the same amount and level of spells as if he were a sorcerer of level 2)

Arcane Spell Power I (1 AP)
Prerequisites: Ultimate Magus I,

Benefit: The caster level of your lowest class equals that of half your highest level spell casting class, and the caster level of your both your classes I given a +1

Expanded spell knowledge 1 (2 AP)
Prerequisites: Ultimate Magus I

Benefit: A player can add one spell of levels 1 2 and 3 from his wizard spell list and add them to his sorcerer spell list, also all spells that are a part of his sorcerer spell list of those levels are added to his wizard spellbook

Arcane Spell points (2 AP)
Prerequisites: Ultimate Magus I, Wizard Energy of Scholar I OR Sorcerer Energy of Dragonblood I

Benefit: the total spell points the character would have at a given level would be averaged from both classes. The average is derived from the maximum spell points available to each individual class at the current character level (Example: say you have an arcane caster level 8 the spell points would be averaged from the total he would have as an 8th level sorcerer and an 8th level wizard). Also the spell points gained from Wizard energy of the scholar I or Sorcerer energy of the Dragonblood I would be averaged ad well (Example: a wizard gains 20 sp from Energy of the Scholar and sorcerer gains 30 sp from Energy of the Dragonblood, when a character takes this, he gains 25 sp instead of 20 sp or 30 sp).

Arcane Blending I (1 AP)
Prerequisites: Ultimate magus I

Benefit: The ultimate magus casts her wizard spells at the same speed and power as if they were sorcerer spells. Items that increase spell points of character give the same amount as if he were a pure sorcerer,

Ultimate Magus II (4 AP)
Prerequisites: Ultimate Magus I, 2 Metamagic Feats, Arcane Classes no more than 4 levels appart

Benefit: The lowest level arcane class can cast the same level spells as if the class were the same level as the highest level arcane class. However the caster level of the lowest class remains the same as usual. (Example 7th level wizard 1st level sorcerer: the sorcerer class can cast the same spells as if he were a level 7 sorcerer; however his caster level will be the same as if he were as 1st level sorcerer. This is purely for example purposes only, a character like this, would not be able to meet the prerequisites.)

Arcane Spell Power II (1 AP)
Prerequisites: Ultimate Magus II, Arcane spell power I

Benefit: The caster level of your lowest class is equal to the caster level of your highest class. The caster level of both classes is also increased by another +1 bringing the total to +2

Expanded Spell Knowledge II (2 AP)
Prerequisites: Ultimate Magus II, Expanded spell knowledge I

Benefit: Take one spell of 4th, 5th, and 6th level from your wizard spell list and and add it to your sorcerer caster spell list provided your sorcerer can cast spells of that level after Ultimate Magus II is applied. Also all spells of those levels from his sorcerer spell list are automatically added to his wizard spellbook

Arcane Spell Points II (2 AP)
Prerequisites: Ultimate Magus II, Arcane Spell Points I, Wizard Energy of the Scholar II OR Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblood II

Benefit: This enhancement functions like Arcane Spell Points I, however as an added bonus, the characters spell points are not derived from intelligence and Charisma as it normally would, instead they are derived from the average of the two bonuses (Example: intelligence is +4 but Charisma is +2 spell points from both classes are derived from a +3 bonus). Also bonus spell points from Wizard Energy of the Scholar II and Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblood II are averaged instead in the same fashion as Arcane spell points I.

Arcane Blending II
Prerequisites: Ultimate Magus II, Arcane Blending I

Benefit: The DC for each all spells the ultimate magus has or has in his spellbook are determined by the sum of the Intelligence and Charisma score bonuses

Ultimate Magus III (4 AP)
Prerequisites: Improved Mental Toughness, Ultimate Magus II, 3 Metamagic Feats, Arcane classes no more than 2 levels appart

Benefit: Each Arcane Spellcasting class can cast the number and level of arcane spells equal to the sum of the levels of both Arcane Spellcasting classes

Arcane Spell Power III (1 AP)
Prerequisites: Ultimate Magus III, Arcane spell power II

Benefit: The caster level of both arcane classes is equal to the sum of the caster levels of both arcane classes; the caster also gets another +2 bonus bringing it to a total of +4

Expanded Spell Knowledge III (2 AP)
Prerequisites: Ultimate Magus III, Expanded spell knowledge II

Benefit: Take one spell of 7th, 8th, and 9th level from your wizard spell list and add it to your sorcerer caster spell list provided your sorcerer can cast spells of that level after Ultimate Magus III is applied. Also all spells of those levels from his sorcerer spell list are automatically added to his wizard spellbook

Arcane Spell Points III (2 AP)
Prerequisites: Ultimate Magus III, Arcane Spell Points II, Wizard Energy of the Scholar III OR Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblood III

Benefit: This enhancement functions like Arcane Spell Points II, however as an added bonus, However the spell point grand total in each class before averaging is determined based upon the sum of the intelligence and charisma bonuses. Also bonus spell points from Wizard Energy of the Scholar III and IV and Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblood III and IV are averaged instead in the same fashion as arcane spell points II and I.


Arcane Blending III
Prerequisites: Ultimate Magus III, Arcane Blending II

Benefit: Any feats, enhancements, or other abilities that only apply to one class also apply to the spells of the other arcane class. Also the caster levels of both classes are added together to determine if the character meets the caster level prerequisites for feats, enhancements or other abilities

I would like to see some constructive criticism on the balance of this class and how to properly balance it, then since I am a free player, I would really appreaciate it if a premium or VIP would sponsor this on the suggestions thread after 100 supporters support this without changes ^_^

Symar-FangofLloth
12-13-2009, 10:34 PM
Well, considering there's no way to increase your casting while advancing as another class at the same time (like many PrCs do in tabletop, or even the Practiced Spellcaster feat for just a caster level increase), you end up kinda sucky.

I don't think you could get your Int AND Cha high enough to have decent DCs for both classes, for starters.
And you'll be missing out on higher level spells, just to have twice as many low level spells. Which... considering the spellpoint-based nature of casting here, and the inflated number of spell points over a tabletop character, and the fact you can switch out spells every 3 days as a sorcerer if you need to, such a multiclass isn't really needed.

Oh, and don't think you can go 19Wiz/1Sorc and come away with double spellpoints from items. The game is smarter than that, and you get increased based on a percentage of your level. So a 19/1 would, at level 20 there, be getting 5% more sp, which on a Wizardry 6 item is 7 more.

And you'll hurt your caster level for overcoming Spell Resistance, no matter your multiclass. In this case, you aren't really gaining anything at all.

bobbryan2
12-13-2009, 10:42 PM
No real debate here to spark.

Cons - a lot

Strengths - none.

Sarazahj
12-13-2009, 10:55 PM
Biggest con of a Sorcerer/Wizard is the lack of high level spells,unless you split something like 1/19,2/18,etc.

You also need to use up pretty much all your starting points towards Cha and Int,meaning you'll be terribly squishy and will drop very,very fast.

It's usually a pretty bad idea to cross those two classes in DDO,but if you're able to make it to end-game while not being a liability then kudos to you.

Dragavon
12-14-2009, 11:15 PM
Multiclassing a wizard by adding sorc levels and vice versa is possibly the worst MC you can build in DDO. I don't think many will discuss that :D

MilleniumEagle
12-14-2009, 11:23 PM
Alright I get all of your guy's points lol, at the beginning levels, the sheer amount of spells would be a good trade off, however in the end, you would lose a lot of great qualities, I will probably close this thread now, however, I am going to suggest the Ultimate Magus PrE, that way I might be able to get what I want and to allow pure arcanists like me a chance to really shine

sephiroth1084
12-14-2009, 11:29 PM
If you pick up one level of sorcerer on your otherwise pure wizard you gain maybe 100 SP, and lose the capstone (1 to all DCs, ~25 SP, -1 to cost of all metamagics/-1 to each increase of Heighten), a feat, and lose 1 on your spell penetration rolls (I think). So, not worth it at all.

If you pick up one level of wizard on your otherwise pure sorcerer you gain 1 bonus feat. That's pretty much it. And you lose out on the capstone (currently broken, but supposed to increase damage with spells and criticals with spells), as well as a point of spell penetration and probably a fair chunk of SP. So, not really worth it, but if you really need an extra feat, this might be worthwhile.

Taking more than one level yields basically ZERO benefit, as you trade high level spells for additional low level spell slots, which in DDO is basically pointless. You don't gain more HP, saves, skills, attack bonus, SP (maybe a little for wizard, but that's mitigated by losing better spells), useful class abilities or really anything else.

Add to all of this the fact that there is no arcanist combination PrC or PrE in DDO and there is absolutely no reason to splash more than one level of a second arcanist on your primary caster, and even then there is hardly a reason.

Oh, and the general consensus by most folks who play D&D 3.5 is that multiclassing casters with anything that retards spell progression is that:
http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg
(http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg)

MilleniumEagle
12-15-2009, 10:37 PM
This thread has been converted from the debate of multiclass spellcasters being a good Idea to a debate over the ultimate magus PrE that I am suggesting, I would like to hear your input on all of this

Lorz
12-15-2009, 10:50 PM
Mill, please note everyone so far has given solid advice. Ill look into the PrE build but as i have stated many many times...DDO is not P&P D&D. There are a lot of differences, both good and bad. Its great you bring up these questions as im sure others have wondered. And there are a lot of players who can help analysis the good/bad.

In the end, sometimes a bad build on paper (for DDO) can be played quite well and be quite useful...There are also cases where a good build on paper can be horrible in game.... a lot depends on the players skill. I mean seriously Smatts been playing above his toons abilities for a long time. :) And me....heck i specialize in Gimps and worthless toons :)

Gimps need love too :)

MilleniumEagle
12-17-2009, 08:51 PM
Alright, Lorz, I thank you for your interest in this discussion, so instead of completely cutting off the Sorcerer/Wizard I will allow it on the forum once again, I would also like to debate the Ultimate Magus PrE but, I will no allow debate over sorcerer/wizard debate again. Lorz, I'm glad you said that, that allowed me to feel comfortable discussing this topic again, If you are able I would also like to hear your input on the Sorcerer/Wizard Multiclass,

MilleniumEagle
01-11-2010, 05:26 PM
ok...Any time now. People will post..... People are interested.....I would like to learn more. or debate the ne PrE. Please people give me your input.

Symar-FangofLloth
01-11-2010, 05:57 PM
So, you're asking for an Ulitmate Magus PrE?
It'll be a loooong time if they even ever do it.
They've already 3 PrEs for each class named and planned (and Ultimate Magus is not among them), and we see how fast those are coming along. And then some racial ones, too.
That said, the single biggest thing they could add to help multiclassed spellcasters would be the Practiced Spellcaster feat. Even if you had to take it for each casting class separately. It increases your caster level (note: not spells known, nor sp/spells per day, just caster level) by up to 4 levels, but no higher than your total character level.

I don't feel a multiclass-only PrE has any place in the game until we have at least the 3 PrEs per class in place.

Phidius
01-11-2010, 06:18 PM
I tried to read your suggestions - honestly I did.

Ultimate Magus III: so a 10/10 wiz/sorc split has all the benefits of a 20 wiz and 20 sorc with no drawbacks.

Spell Power: so a 10/10 wiz/sorc split gets a capstone that compares to the wiz capstone, only better.

Arcane Blending: so a 10/10 wiz/sorc split gets to pick and choose from both enhancement lines.

Arcane Spell Points: so a 10/10 wiz/sorc can have more spell points than a 20 sorc

Spell Knowledge: so a 10/10 wiz/sorc will get all arcane spells without having to inscribe scrolls.


Frankly, it looks like these are designed to remove all disadvantages from the 10/10 build, and make it more powerful than a pure build. It just seems to me to be an attempt to build up a very weak multiclass concept.


However, I'd be the first to admit that my analysis may be way off. Food for thought...

Faelyndel
01-11-2010, 06:33 PM
I appreciate the amount of time and thought you must have put into those suggestions [I apologize for that poorly worded sentence] however there are too many disadvantages to multiclassing spellcasters in DDO that such a PrE is not feasible without adding such advantages to make the build worthwhile that you destroy everything we know about how casters work, essentially.

While some ideas sound... plausible, they're frankly a little overpowering and strange, for lack of a better word, as Phidius pointed out. I also agree that a multi-class-only PrE should not be added until they finish those designed for *any* kind of build metting prerequisites. In fact, I'd argue that such a PrE should never be contemplated, because to force people to multiclass to gain the benefits of a PrE seems absurd.

MilleniumEagle
01-12-2010, 11:03 PM
Please, don't just bash on the Idea, if you have any ways to balance this better, or to allow, some downsides to this PrE. Let me know, so that I can fix it and hopefully pure-multiclass-arcanists, can shine. and Phidius, You read my suggestions pretty good, however, I tried to take as much from the ultimate magus prestige class as I possibly could. The one thing you misread was arcane spell power. What that does is it averages the spell points so less than a sorcerer but more than a wizard. It was hard, if there is a better way to interpret the ultimate magus class into ddo, that would be wonderful because, Pure arcanists like myself, would like the versitily of wizards, with the raw power of a sorcerer. This class is trying to do that. If you guys have any suggestions to improve the PrE, instead of only pointing out its flaws without suggestions. it would be greatly appreaciated. Thank you so much.

CrimsonEagle
01-12-2010, 11:15 PM
Please, don't just bash on the Idea, if you have any ways to balance this better, or to allow, some downsides to this PrE. Let me know, so that I can fix it and hopefully pure-multiclass-arcanists, can shine. and Phidius, You read my suggestions pretty good, however, I tried to take as much from the ultimate magus prestige class as I possibly could. The one thing you misread was arcane spell power. What that does is it averages the spell points so less than a sorcerer but more than a wizard. It was hard, if there is a better way to interpret the ultimate magus class into ddo, that would be wonderful because, Pure arcanists like myself, would like the versitily of wizards, with the raw power of a sorcerer. This class is trying to do that. If you guys have any suggestions to improve the PrE, instead of only pointing out its flaws without suggestions. it would be greatly appreaciated. Thank you so much.

They are not bashing it. They are just telling you the truth. It is what it is.

Now......if you want to give it a go, then do it. If you are in this game for any time at all, chances are you will roll and reroll many, many characters.

Just remember, you may get turned down by alot of groups.

MilleniumEagle
01-12-2010, 11:21 PM
Crimson, you are right, that they are just telling the truth and that was a fault on my part for getting a little defensive. I appreciate the truths you are telling me. But all of you out there would like to give any suggestions to balance the PrE or a way to create a viable, multiclass arcanist. I would like That a lot. because, I absolutely adore arcanists. and I want the versitility of wizards with power of sorcerers. Thats just my play style especially in the table top. Please don't tell me the table top is different, I already know that. Thats why I suggest this PrE. To give multiclass arcanists, there own special niech. Yes the current draft of this PrE has many flaws. Please offer any suggestions to me that may improve it :D

jadedjim
02-22-2016, 02:36 AM
this is not at all related to ddo, pnp d&d, but a rather an out of left field, obscure / bored iwd2 inquiry. google search, & this thread popped.

anyway, im using the one pre gen group, featuring the drow sorc., Vraedna, her 2 best scores just happen to be intelligence & charisma.

other then the bard, (Sheris) the party's light in the loafers ~ in terms of arcane antics, so i tossed about the thought of diversifying Vrae's portfolio. right now, shes recently gained a level *yay* & is lvl. 2 sorc, going on level 3 .... something.

i was trying to weigh pros / cons in my head of adding not only a lvl. of wiz, but then whether or not to then choose a specialization.?

according to the players manual 3.5, any specialization will have opposing schools, from which you cant use (scrolls included) with the exception of divination.

so now, the ?s..

are drow considered elves ... meaning wiz would be a favored class, & therefore not incur an xp penalty for MC?

is this worthwhile for the ability to scribe scrolls, should i just go universal wizard, so i can then scribe any scroll.? do you get an extra familiar? what about feats / skills?

wasnt exactly planning on adding more then the 1 level, but could i keep going, in favor of straight up wiz -from there on out, or would it be better to refocus on the o.g. class, or just not change anything.?

or is it the typical quality over quantity caster spell selection conundrum?

how is ddo these days?

thanks guys, happy adventuring.

cru121
02-22-2016, 02:46 AM
obscure / bored iwd2 inquiry
how is ddo these days?

Heya, dunno about Icewind Dale, haven't touched that for a decade or more. However, just one thing, IWD2 is 3rd edition, not 3.5, so I wouldn't base your decisions on 3.5 PHB.

And DDO is 10 years old soon, yay. You should check it out. Gnomes!! :-)

Also, here's a forum where people still seem to discuss IWD2: http://www.sorcerers.net/community/index.php?forums/icewind-dale-2.23/