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LookingForABentoBox
12-13-2009, 01:35 PM
I recently did this quest with a full group of very high level characters, and the boss fight took over 30 minutes to complete with all the respawning and rezzing. Even with full fire res, protection, and a wizard casting ooze puppet, anyone without evasion died relatively quickly and the living spells kept on breaking through the charms. We finally finished it, but does anyone else find the last fight a bit too difficult for a non-raid level 17 quest?

Oreg
12-13-2009, 01:39 PM
Have your wizard cone of cold all the oozes and mephits rather than ooze puppet. Since the changes its best to send an evasion person with dps to kill the named up top first. Have your wiz either mass charm the mephits to kill the

Epitome
12-13-2009, 01:41 PM
I tend to think that the entire quest minus the end compared to the end is like night and day and is, by no means, in balance with the rest of the quest. This end fight definately allows for the evasion clerics to shine.

Usually the best strat for this is to have a kiter with evasion and many hitpoints (because the meteor living spells will still pop you with ~150 HP worth of bludgeon damage from their meteor swarm which cannot be evaded) to run in behind the group and kite all the mobs at the base while the rest of the party works on the the kobold at the top. This quest can be aggravating, especially when the kobold sploitz the terrain by perching himself up in mid-air.

Angelus_dead
12-13-2009, 01:47 PM
We finally finished it, but does anyone else find the last fight a bit too difficult for a non-raid level 17 quest?
Yes, there is clearly a problem with the difficulty balance of the end fights of Reaver's Refuge quests.
1. In all of them, the boss fight is so much harder as to make most of the rest nearly irrelevant. (Unless you had trouble with puzzles)
2. The level 17 Reaver's Refuge quests are tougher than the level 18 Inspired Quarter quests, and some of the level 19 Shavarath quests.

If something was changed to make the boss fights easier, there should probably be a concurrent change to increase the challenge of the rest.

Mylon
12-13-2009, 02:04 PM
This quest demonstrates the broken nature of empowered + maximized spells versus defenses like resist energy which get no such boosts or benefits or higher level versions.

Waukeen
12-13-2009, 02:20 PM
how dare Turbine leave any quests with a challenging end fight in them. grrr. figure out what isnt working, then adapt.

redoubt
12-13-2009, 06:37 PM
how dare Turbine leave any quests with a challenging end fight in them. grrr. figure out what isnt working, then adapt.

AD is right on this one.

You've also been around long enough to remember when the meteor swarm could be evaded AND when you would enfeeble the spells and have them stay that way.

That version of the quest presented multiple options at completion and I would say was better balanced with the rest of the quest. With the nerf to stat damage and the huge buff to meteor swarm, this quest is now out of wack.

Also begs the side question of: "whats the point of evasion if you can get pounded by chain casting living spells' meteor swarms?" I'd like to see meteor swarm nerfed back down to all evade-able (both for mobs and players.) It used to be that you could mitigate the fire part with buffs and only suffer half (the bludgeon part) even without evasion. Now there is little difference between evasion and no evasion. I'd also be happy going back to not auto-regenning stat damage (both mobs and players).

Angelus_dead
12-13-2009, 06:44 PM
how dare Turbine leave any quests with a challenging end fight in them. grrr. figure out what isnt working, then adapt.
It is a good thing to have some challenging fights.

But if they are harder than other higher-level quests, then that's a problem. One could question whether this quest should be easier, or the others need to get tougher.

But for Enter The Kobold to be so much tougher than Dream Conspiracy and Sins of Attrition is just wrong.

firegood
12-13-2009, 07:06 PM
It's really not that bad, and probably the most fun fight in the entire game. Not sure how much scaling changed it, but my first time in there me my brother and best friend 3 manned it in about 4-5 minutes. I'll probably go back on hard and elite to try that out. Leave it as in imo, definitely a shock based on the rest of the quest though, but I enjoyed it.

redoubt
12-13-2009, 08:12 PM
It's really not that bad, and probably the most fun fight in the entire game. Not sure how much scaling changed it, but my first time in there me my brother and best friend 3 manned it in about 4-5 minutes. I'll probably go back on hard and elite to try that out. Leave it as in imo, definitely a shock based on the rest of the quest though, but I enjoyed it.

Have you been in since the changes I mentioned? I think they both happened at the same time scaling did (or close to it). Maybe you've not been in since?

I didn't mind it too much before, but I find it annoying now. I'd rather run coal chamber... :eek:

Enochroot
12-13-2009, 08:31 PM
Have you been in since the changes I mentioned? I think they both happened at the same time scaling did (or close to it). Maybe you've not been in since?

I didn't mind it too much before, but I find it annoying now. I'd rather run coal chamber... :eek:



I've been in - it's not hard. Utilize a class that can take aggro , kite, heal, and prot themselves ... hmmmm


Which class does xereum think can do everything? ;)


If they have wings, even easier. My melees never see a lick of AOE damage in there.

LookingForABentoBox
12-14-2009, 01:49 AM
I think a change like making all the fire elementals orange-named instead of red-named would go a long way, at the least.

TechNoFear
12-14-2009, 02:06 AM
The kobold jumping onto spots where you can't hit him and regenerating to full health for no reason tend to make the end much more frustrating than enjoyable IMO.

Kale_Hagan
12-15-2009, 02:51 PM
The problem with this quest isn't so much the difficulty, but in the fact that you have practically no chance to beat this fight unless you are optimized or with a highly skilled party.

This fight generally cannot be beaten with a balanced party that could tackle the whole rest of the quest. You really need to have either specific specialized characters or uber-leet players. Most people who are not one or the other have to hope that the high end players are short manning the quest and have a couple spots left over on an LFM.

I tried this quest with a full group of highly competent players from my guild and got wiped out because our party wasn't optimally built.

THIS QUEST IS BROKEN. Period. I would rather use a framing hammer to smash my fingers into a pulp than run it again.

Impatiens
12-15-2009, 02:57 PM
Have your wizard cone of cold all the oozes and mephits rather than ooze puppet. Since the changes its best to send an evasion person with dps to kill the named up top first. Have your wiz either mass charm the mephits to kill the

Why no Ooze Puppet? It's been a month or so since I last did the quest but ooze puppet completely trivialized it then. Has something changed since then?

Jay203
12-15-2009, 03:03 PM
the only living spell you need to puppet up is the living meteor swarm
not only does it chip in a bit of damage against the rest of the stuff, but it takes aggro quite well too
make sure you curse it before you puppe the poor thing tho, or it breaks out relatively quick :p:p:p

LookingForABentoBox
12-16-2009, 02:26 AM
Why no Ooze Puppet? It's been a month or so since I last did the quest but ooze puppet completely trivialized it then. Has something changed since then?

Because the oozes have such high saves that you're not likely to land a charm on any time other than it rolling a 1 on its save

Uska
12-16-2009, 02:59 AM
It's really not that bad, and probably the most fun fight in the entire game. Not sure how much scaling changed it, but my first time in there me my brother and best friend 3 manned it in about 4-5 minutes. I'll probably go back on hard and elite to try that out. Leave it as in imo, definitely a shock based on the rest of the quest though, but I enjoyed it.

It use to be a pretty fun quest I could go in on my monk and weak all the spells and just run around playing with the ele's now the bludgeon damage will do me fairly quickly if I am not careful and sometimes even if I am careful, its not much fun anymore.

BLITHELY
12-16-2009, 03:09 AM
Perfect example of a quest tht is hard with the wrong tactics and a breeze with the right 1s. If u go in with unk thud mentality of zerging barbs yep its is going 2 b rough. Using yr cleric and caster wisely makes this 1 a breeze. The quest is not broken like many other quests in this game they become easier with experience and knowledge.

Lorz
12-16-2009, 03:26 AM
Time to step up to the challenge rather than ask for it to be easier.

It will make you a more skilled player.

As the saying goes...if you want to play better, play with better players.
As stated the quest is not broken (unless that did that monday) so learn to adapt...but dont come in asking for it to be made easier....this is why DDO is so good....it is not for the lowest common denominator, but instead challenges the players to improve to succeed.

/disclaimer i have not logged on in 2 weeks....so if something changed in last 2 weeks well then im all wrong....if not then your saying....you cant take the heat....and that is no reason to make it easier.

Kaervas
12-16-2009, 03:37 AM
Time to step up to the challenge rather than ask for it to be easier.

It will make you a more skilled player.

As the saying goes...if you want to play better, play with better players.
As stated the quest is not broken (unless that did that monday) so learn to adapt...but dont come in asking for it to be made easier....this is why DDO is so good....it is not for the lowest common denominator, but instead challenges the players to improve to succeed.

/disclaimer i have not logged on in 2 weeks....so if something changed in last 2 weeks well then im all wrong....if not then your saying....you cant take the heat....and that is no reason to make it easier.

Saying that regarding Enter the Kobold is amusing, intentional or not :)

Lorz
12-16-2009, 03:37 AM
The problem with this quest isn't so much the difficulty, but in the fact that you have practically no chance to beat this fight unless you are optimized or with a highly skilled party.

This fight generally cannot be beaten with a balanced party that could tackle the whole rest of the quest. You really need to have either specific specialized characters or uber-leet players. Most people who are not one or the other have to hope that the high end players are short manning the quest and have a couple spots left over on an LFM.

I tried this quest with a full group of highly competent players from my guild and got wiped out because our party wasn't optimally built.

THIS QUEST IS BROKEN. Period. I would rather use a framing hammer to smash my fingers into a pulp than run it again.

So by looking at your post instead of bringing in specialist or bringing in highly skilled players (both your words for how to succeed) you want them to fix it (you say it is broken) it so your highly competent (but not highly skilled) buddies can beat it with you. This is what you posted up. I mean see your post.

so by your logic....non-skilled players should be able to complete all quests and raids and such and get rewards that others work hard to build the skills to achieve..... WOW, just WOW....thats what you are wanting this game to be like.

Seriously not trying to beat you up...but think for a minute...it is the challenge, the difficulty, the sacrifice that makes the rewards that much sweater....if you had GM powers and could just materialize the most uber weapons/armor/skills in the game....it would be fun for about 20 mins. The fact it is hard, not easy, and requires you to build the skill...THIS...This is why it is fun for YEARS for most of us.

I ask you to consider that......respectfully. And hey...when i run B toons the games a lot harder than when im running my A toons. I assume, you all had less than your A toons, but dont give up...work at it and if your work hard it will come.

Lorz
12-16-2009, 03:39 AM
Saying that regarding Enter the Kobold is amusing, intentional or not :)
Wow if you liked that one, wait until you see the next post :)

Please remember none of this is mean spirited (well not much)...but i do believe that i speak the truth about if it is easy....like giving somebody something for nothing....they do not value what they get.

:)

vVAnjilaVv
12-16-2009, 03:59 AM
I think they made it so that u can buy the essences with draconic runes now, which alleviates some of the frustration of getting ur DT armor. You can just simply skip this quest.

Danmor
12-16-2009, 04:03 AM
The quest is doable at appropriate level. You do have to have a party that is prepared for it though.
Even then, if your healer-type and/or caster catch agro from the elementals it might go downhill pretty fast.

Still, the main complaint of the OP was that the end fight is out of whack for a lvl 17 quest with which I agree wholeheartedly. It's doable, but much more difficult than other end fights at that level. Monastery of the Scorpion and Prey on the Hunter are much more fun as the end fight there can be beaten with appropriate tactics alone. For EtK you need good tactics, decent equipment and quite a bit of luck.

Danmor
12-16-2009, 04:05 AM
I think they made it so that u can buy the essences with draconic runes now, which alleviates some of the frustration of getting ur DT armor. You can just simply skip this quest.

You still have to complete it once. You can only buy the essences once you completed SoS at least once. So you have to get your first essence the hard way.

vVAnjilaVv
12-16-2009, 04:21 AM
You still have to complete it once. You can only buy the essences once you completed SoS at least once. So you have to get your first essence the hard way.

Ahhh...ok I have not been in there since the change...thanks.

Well, my opinion on it is this then, the whole series yields u arguably the best armor you can get, it shouldn't be easy to aquire.

The quest is a pain in the neck, I agree......but it seems like there is always one quest in a raid pre-req progression that is really tough.

VoN=The Jungle of Khyber....I don't know how many times I have had a party fall apart at the end fight.
Titan=Hiding in Plain Sight....can be pretty hard to complete your first time through.
Zawabi's Revenge=An Offering of Blood....if u don't know ur stuff this quest can fall apart really fast.
Reaver=The Crucible.......the swim can take forever sometimes.
The Shroud=Coalescence Chamber, Running with the Devils...enough said.
VoD, Hound of Xoriat=running through the wilderness area and making it in one shot all together still is sometimes a miracle.
ToD=All the pre-reqs for this raid are probably still considered hard as it's a newer area still.

Why do I make the raid reference when SoS is not actually a raid....well to many it is considered a 6 preson raid. Most anything that gives such a powerful end reward and is considered raid worthy is going to have major obstacles to overcome.

Danmor
12-16-2009, 05:03 AM
(...)
Well, my opinion on it is this then, the whole series yields u arguably the best armor you can get, it shouldn't be easy to aquire.
(...)
Why do I make the raid reference when SoS is not actually a raid....well to many it is considered a 6 preson raid. Most anything that gives such a powerful end reward and is considered raid worthy is going to have major obstacles to overcome.

Not too sure I feel the same way. Dragontouched armor can yield the best armor for many builds, but the crafting process is a slot machine. Of course you shouldn't get the armor of your dreams by running SoS once, but at least you should be afforded some control over the process.

Anyways, you have to do EtK only one time and once you've run SoS you can simply farm the runes for your DT armor in Monastery and Prey which are much easier and faster to complete.
Thus EtK isn't that bad. It's still not a balanced quest, but at least not one you have to do every time you want to do SoS.

LookingForABentoBox
12-16-2009, 02:06 PM
There's a difference between other quests which are hard and require advanced tactics to a quest like this where it's impossible to beat without evasion

Josh
12-16-2009, 02:29 PM
Not too sure I feel the same way. Dragontouched armor can yield the best armor for many builds, but the crafting process is a slot machine. Of course you shouldn't get the armor of your dreams by running SoS once, but at least you should be afforded some control over the process.

Anyways, you have to do EtK only one time and once you've run SoS you can simply farm the runes for your DT armor in Monastery and Prey which are much easier and faster to complete.
Thus EtK isn't that bad. It's still not a balanced quest, but at least not one you have to do every time you want to do SoS.

Being able to work around a broken game mechanic doesn't make the broken game mechanic acceptable. Besides, farming Monastary and Prey clearly isn't how the devs intended that chain to be run.

Superspeed_Hi5
12-16-2009, 02:51 PM
I agree that its broken in the regard that the Kobold can and will keep backpedalling until he is up the wall and cannot be touched is an issue. The fact that when this happens he instantly regains all his HP is also a problem. Its one of the reasons they removed the splashdown from teh end of StK because once the guardian set foot in the water it would reset his HP.

rest
12-16-2009, 02:56 PM
Here's a hint for ya... the stuff will come up out of the cave now. So maybe leave one person beating on the kobold and have someone else kite everything else back. As long as they can take out the kobold and the djinn, you'll be fine.

A few days ago we did this with a monk-mutt, a haggle bard and a melee fvs. As someone stated earlier.. with the right tactics you'll be just fine.

Natulyre
12-17-2009, 01:26 PM
Seriously, This quest is way screwed up difficulty-wise. The dungeon is a joke and you can skip most of it (even the puzzle) then the end fight seems like a raid fight. This quest is way harder than Stealers of souls (which make no sense) They should really do something about it.

natakeu
12-17-2009, 01:33 PM
It is a good thing to have some challenging fights.

But for Enter The Kobold to be so much tougher than Dream Conspiracy and Sins of Attrition is just wrong.

Much of which I agree with you on. The very reason I made/make L2 weapons is because of such bosses having non-bypassable DR. I figured the bolt of lightning would help make up for it. :D Typically with my rogue I stay glued to the boss kobold and forget everything/everyone else.

Shade
12-17-2009, 01:34 PM
This fight was tough at lvl16.. Now with lvl20s and stronger gear? Pfft it's not that hard.

Something does need to be done tho so the noobs don't get so confused.

Best thing to do would be to make every other high lvl quest have an actually challenging end fight, to be more even. Bring them all up to the level of this one, not the other way aroudn.

Or if it has to be nerfed for the -please-hold-my-hand kiddies.. At least maintain the difficulty on hard and elite, just make normal a joke for the players who hate having to use any kind of tactics or strategy, just give an incentive to run it on the higher difficulties.

Give normal just a 50% chance at a rune/essence, and no draconics. While hard has a 100% chance, 10 draconics, and elite has a 100% chance, 20 draconics, and a moderate chance for a 2nd eldritch rune each run.

Or it could be noobified ala SoS:
Quest completes once you reach the lava barrier and pick up the essence (nothing else in the chest), but end fight is an optional you do after that gives the large majority of xp (Regular quest xp nerfed and instead put into the optional), and has 1-3 loot chests (# of chests depends on difficulty) and the eldritch rune.

LookingForABentoBox
12-17-2009, 02:41 PM
This fight was tough at lvl16.. Now with lvl20s and stronger gear? Pfft it's not that hard.

Something does need to be done tho so the noobs don't get so confused.

Best thing to do would be to make every other high lvl quest have an actually challenging end fight, to be more even. Bring them all up to the level of this one, not the other way aroudn.

Or if it has to be nerfed for the -please-hold-my-hand kiddies.. At least maintain the difficulty on hard and elite, just make normal a joke for the players who hate having to use any kind of tactics or strategy, just give an incentive to run it on the higher difficulties.



There is no gear that makes a level 20 have an easier time with this. The only way to mitigate the fire damage is with evasion and that doesnt help with the physical aspect of meteor swarms. What tactics do you recommend? Having the evasion try and kite them all into the tunnel? He cant get everyone aggro without dying from the blunt damage. Ooze puppet? You'll specifically need a wiz for this quest because you wont find any sorcs with it, and they save on everything other than a 20. What strategy is there in dying over and over again and hoping you land an acid fog before you die over and over again? Killing the spells doesnt even do much because they respawn!

JOTMON
12-17-2009, 03:49 PM
The bludgeoning damage has become a nuisance.
It has taken away from evasion the point of evasion.
Evasion builds typically have lower hitpoints and rely on avoiding being hit.
Feats and builds are designed to take reduced damage on hits, (Rogue improved evasion).
Now every meteor swarm out there is like a rednamed rust monster for a Warforged.
Evasion kiting has become much more difficult and unreliable.
My build use to thrive in Kobold and the subterrain with the spells that was what he specced for.
I would regularly pug groups and evade the spells while the party focussed on the named fights
Now I don't even bother to run it unless forced by guildies or needy friends.

I hope DDO will come back and address this recent change and implement some adjustments to bring this back into balance.

Quikster
12-17-2009, 04:15 PM
This fight was tough at lvl16.. Now with lvl20s and stronger gear? Pfft it's not that hard.

Something does need to be done tho so the noobs don't get so confused.

Best thing to do would be to make every other high lvl quest have an actually challenging end fight, to be more even. Bring them all up to the level of this one, not the other way aroudn.

Or if it has to be nerfed for the -please-hold-my-hand kiddies.. At least maintain the difficulty on hard and elite, just make normal a joke for the players who hate having to use any kind of tactics or strategy, just give an incentive to run it on the higher difficulties.

Give normal just a 50% chance at a rune/essence, and no draconics. While hard has a 100% chance, 10 draconics, and elite has a 100% chance, 20 draconics, and a moderate chance for a 2nd eldritch rune each run.

Or it could be noobified ala SoS:
Quest completes once you reach the lava barrier and pick up the essence (nothing else in the chest), but end fight is an optional you do after that gives the large majority of xp (Regular quest xp nerfed and instead put into the optional), and has 1-3 loot chests (# of chests depends on difficulty) and the eldritch rune.

I agree. A setup like this would be cool.

rest
12-17-2009, 04:19 PM
There is no gear that makes a level 20 have an easier time with this. The only way to mitigate the fire damage is with evasion and that doesnt help with the physical aspect of meteor swarms. What tactics do you recommend? Having the evasion try and kite them all into the tunnel? He cant get everyone aggro without dying from the blunt damage. Ooze puppet? You'll specifically need a wiz for this quest because you wont find any sorcs with it, and they save on everything other than a 20. What strategy is there in dying over and over again and hoping you land an acid fog before you die over and over again? Killing the spells doesnt even do much because they respawn!

Find a hammerblock robe to mitigate some of the bludgeon damage and kite them away? Get em into the maze maybe and have them spinning their wheels in there. Hell some PLAYERS can't navigate through that maze I should hope that the AI isn't advanced enough that they can logically get out. Sure some of the might eventually get out on accident, but by then you should have beaten down both the kobold and the djinn, looted and been on your way back out.

LookingForABentoBox
12-17-2009, 04:31 PM
Get em into the maze maybe and have them spinning their wheels in there. Hell some PLAYERS can't navigate through that maze I should hope that the AI isn't advanced enough that they can logically get out.

Having the spells not respawn would make the end fight less of a hassle; you shouldnt have to bring mobs into a maze in order to finish the quest, there's nothing to be gained by setting up a quest in which killing the mobs doesn't help since they respawn so quickly

redoubt
12-17-2009, 06:40 PM
Having the spells not respawn would make the end fight less of a hassle; you shouldnt have to bring mobs into a maze in order to finish the quest, there's nothing to be gained by setting up a quest in which killing the mobs doesn't help since they respawn so quickly

1. remove all stat damage regen. from players and mobs.

2. put meteor swarm back the way it was. i.e. no bludgeon damage. Or at least make it evade-able.

3. make the rest of the dungeon harder.

quickgrif
12-17-2009, 07:08 PM
Find a hammerblock robe to mitigate some of the bludgeon damage and kite them away? Get em into the maze maybe and have them spinning their wheels in there. Hell some PLAYERS can't navigate through that maze I should hope that the AI isn't advanced enough that they can logically get out. Sure some of the might eventually get out on accident, but by then you should have beaten down both the kobold and the djinn, looted and been on your way back out.

Spells are pretty quick in the maze so if you do not get out fast they will find the way out and be on you.

muffinlad
12-17-2009, 07:41 PM
I agree that its broken in the regard that the Kobold can and will keep backpedalling until he is up the wall and cannot be touched is an issue. The fact that when this happens he instantly regains all his HP is also a problem. Its one of the reasons they removed the splashdown from teh end of StK because once the guardian set foot in the water it would reset his HP.

I want to echo that I do not have a problem with ANY part of this quest, EXCEPT (shouting intended) the leashing on the Kobold giving him his HP back. The Jumping is annoying, but can be dealt with even though I don't care for it, but the HP return is absurd.

The rest of it, from the excess damage, to the protected creatures with high immunities, fine...we have to over come. Don't limit tactical options by using a leash that also punishes.

muffinleash

Tobril
12-17-2009, 07:51 PM
Stealth in and enervate/energy drain the oozes, followup with an extended, heightened ooze puppet.

Send in evasion tanks or people with high fire resist due to gear/enhancements/class. Keep them on the big guys and try to keep the trash distracted. The fire summon will last long enough to cause some confusion in there.

Mass charm/suggestion what you can to serve as additional distractions.

Stealth and/or enlarge can also help a lot. Get casters and healers in place outside of danger and assist with buffs and healing.

Just keep pounding on the two big guys and retreat if you need to, preferably without letting the bosses reset.

The fight is a little tricky, but far from "broken".

Natulyre
12-17-2009, 11:59 PM
Stealth in and enervate/energy drain the oozes, followup with an extended, heightened ooze puppet.

Send in evasion tanks or people with high fire resist due to gear/enhancements/class. Keep them on the big guys and try to keep the trash distracted. The fire summon will last long enough to cause some confusion in there.

Mass charm/suggestion what you can to serve as additional distractions.

Stealth and/or enlarge can also help a lot. Get casters and healers in place outside of danger and assist with buffs and healing.

Just keep pounding on the two big guys and retreat if you need to, preferably without letting the bosses reset.

The fight is a little tricky, but far from "broken".

Mass charm/suggestion will do nothing in there.

Enlarge is useless, if you get the boss's aggro from the tunnel it'll reach max distance and reset back to full health.

There is something wrong with this dungeon. It's so unbalanced that many players consider it Broken and despise it so much that they'll never run it unless they NEED to, (aka First run flagging and guild member flagging...)

The dungeon itself is a big joke and need to be changed, especially if they plan to get an epic difficulty version of it soon.

Enochroot
12-18-2009, 12:09 AM
The dungeon is only broken in that it is far too easily zergable.


I was just in there with a cleric that said "anyone that goes up there without evasion is gonna DIE, ZOMG!"


Well, he did die. We completed it easily. No cleric. I don't see how it's broken.

Tobril
12-18-2009, 12:34 AM
Mass charm/suggestion will do nothing in there.

Enlarge is useless, if you get the boss's aggro from the tunnel it'll reach max distance and reset back to full health.

There is something wrong with this dungeon. It's so unbalanced that many players consider it Broken and despise it so much that they'll never run it unless they NEED to, (aka First run flagging and guild member flagging...)

The dungeon itself is a big joke and need to be changed, especially if they plan to get an epic difficulty version of it soon.

It slipped my mind that the fire guys can't be charmed.

I still stand by the enlarge comment though. The idea with that is for the casters to grab aggro from everything in the room, while the fighters do enough damage to regain aggro of the big guy. If your casters are not particularly brave, they can stealth and support the fighters via enlarge and heals/protection instead.

I will admit that it takes fighters with decent AC and high saves to do the fight. It's not easy, but it is doable.

Shade
12-18-2009, 12:57 AM
There is no gear that makes a level 20 have an easier time with this. The only way to mitigate the fire damage is with evasion and that doesnt help with the physical aspect of meteor swarms. What tactics do you recommend? Having the evasion try and kite them all into the tunnel? He cant get everyone aggro without dying from the blunt damage. Ooze puppet? You'll specifically need a wiz for this quest because you wont find any sorcs with it, and they save on everything other than a 20. What strategy is there in dying over and over again and hoping you land an acid fog before you die over and over again? Killing the spells doesnt even do much because they respawn!

The idea that you need someone with evasion to complete this fight has always been a joke to me. IMO evasion is just a crutch, never required, rarely helpful. People that force it into there build and sacrifice DPS to get it could often be better off not doing it at all, as what sacrifices they did to get it can make the fight more difficult then it need sto be.
I've completed the quest dozens of times, with at least 10 of those completions being on elite, very rarely did anyone have evasion and never did we use "acid fog" or much at all in the way of nuking

The answer is simple: DPS. Like everything in the entire game, the encounter can be simply beaten by having enough dps and targetting the correct foes. This was tough for a lvl16 character, but as I said pretty easy for a lvl20 especially with the new PrEs.

I can do it as the sole DPS in the group on any of my Barbarians (none of which have evasion), but for most groups thats not going to happen so I recommend 2 good DPS melee. Also take 1 healer, and the rest doesn't matter much as long as they can contribute something.
Strategy:
Long buffs at the shrine, then everyone down into the tunnel for short buffs (haste, rage, displace, songs, prayer, etc)
2-4 DPS melee sprint straight to the kobold and beat him down. Most important thing - run FAST and Direct, Never flank the kobold. Approach him straight up and fight him straight, he will jump back into his tunnel and then you block him in and beat him down. This should take under 30 seconds with 2 decent dps melee on normal. If 1 of the melee run in from the side or tries to flank him, this can end the encounter for the entire group, by causing the kobold to jump into the lava or up where you can't reach him, so correct posititioning is key.
The healer and everyone else should just wait at the very back to avoid initial agro on the spells and elementals, then once there on the melee, run in to heal - timing this is important else the healer ends up with the agro and dies. If done fast enough, they should only need 1-2 heals anyways as the meteor swarm doesn't even spawn for about 30 seconds.
Once the kobold dies - kill the meteor swarm. Again straight dps is the key, it dies in 5-10 seconds if you can locate it quickly - often this is where groups mess up and try to fight mephits, other spells or random stuff. You need to spam tab FAST and find that swarm ASAP to kill it or it will kill you.
Once it's dead, you have plenty of time to kill the Efreeti and end it. It takes 30 seconds for it to respawn, and thats all you should need to down the Efreeti. The moment the Efreeti dies, so do all the spells and they no longer respawn.

That's basicly it, take a couple decent DPS spec characters, 1 decent healer to keep them alive and the fights a piece of cake. No one needs evasion, no one needs to die allot.

The frenzied fire elementals remain, you can either have 1 person kite them near the entrance while ppl loot , then DDoor. Or kill them outright ,then loot in peace and recall.

Tactics such as charms and ooze puppet can work great - but as noted they require players specialized in those abilities, generaly high Int wizard. But with my strategy they aren't required.

But just for notes: Charm tactics:
Symbol of Persuasion on the ramp up imediately before any trash spawns, the retreat back into the tunnels. IF - and this is the big factor as so many wizards will do this wrong, IF - placed correctly, it will charm all the mephits, and they will get the living spells agro, making the rest a breeze as long as you don't get too close to the mephits.

Ooze puppet can work too - but the spell - meteor swarm (shouldn't charm the others, as the swarm will gain all the agro for you since it's blunt dmg works on everything) have good saves and high SR, so it's a more difficult tactic to put into use then symbol of persuasion.

Re: lvl20 not having better survivability.. Um yea they definetely should. There are far better and more reliable ways to mitigate fire damage then evasion. Hitpoints most obviously, as everyone gets bad rolls and evasion doesn't work when you roll a 1 orr even higher without enough reflex save - which increase with levels.Then there's the rarer equipment generally only higher lvls get such as firestorm greaves (or epic variety - lvl20 req), Bracers of the Glacier for fireshield cold proc, and a shroud 45 pnt fire resist item.

SableShadow
12-18-2009, 01:31 AM
Have a rabbit run race tracks.

Drop some agro gathering AoEs (clickie, spell) and just keep moving around the room, using the island to handle the direct fire spells (scorching ray, meteor swarm), and keep hasted to stay ahead of the fireballs and flamestrikes. Running, jumping...screaming optional. ;)

Rabbit needs to be able to re-pro, self-healing makes it much easier (since then the cleric can ignore you), fireshield helps a lot...as do decent reflex saves. Done it at level on my non-raid geared, non-greensteeled bard...the key is timing and placement, one AoE on the doorway into the main room (so anyone needing a safe spot has one) and another on the ramp (to pull stuff away from the melees beating down the kobold) before stuff starts to spawn.

Hit the efreet a few times and pull him back up the ramp, repeat. Pick off anything left one at a time, repeat.

Rabbit heals and re-pros as needed...I've seen a cleric clear the whole room by doing figure 8's into the corridor (for multiple bladebarrier goodness), but that's going to depend on how well you can twitch your way past the direct damage stuff.

Keep the eles or don't, once everything is open and folks are done, the rabbit can speed l00t and take off also.

ddoer
12-23-2009, 10:53 AM
For those who think this quest is broken should start a thread in the Quests & Adventures forum to gather some strategies before suggesting it is broken.

there are many different ways to finish the quest. My drow wiz 18 just solo'd it twice easily. It took me 30-35 mins and used DD twice. Just buff up with cold shield and fire resist, run in, exhaust the kobold (optional), then use CoC and Otiluke to nuke everything without using any special tactic. when i run out of mana, DD, use rest shrine and come back. In the past, I 2-man'd the quest with 2 casters and we didn't need to use DD at all.

The main threat in that room is the meteor swarm, and the key is to kill it asap. After mod 9, I tested the meteor swarn damage with my sorc 20 and have recorded the damage figures:
http://www.ddoer.com/guide/quest/kobold
My interpretation is only the meteor swarm does meaningful damage to a caster who has good fire damage reduction and absorption. And in general, all mobs in that room deal with small damage figure.

You also have to handle the aggro of living spells and fire elementals, so they won't shoot lots of DBF to the main party. Most people know we can kite them. Other than the fire eles, any caster could kill them easily with CoC, Otiluke, and polar ray. All mobs in that room are vulnerable to cold spell.

Acid fog and ooze puppet are almost useless. By the time you get a crit AF, the fight will have ended already. Ooze puppet should have around 5% chance of landing, i guess.

Evasion is not necessarily, but you either need reflex save to avoid cometfall knockdown or with high enough HP to survive when you are knocked down. if you don't have a healer who can survive in that room, you got to be able to self-heal. You can't reduce the bludgeoning damage but you could reduce any fire damage with firestorm greaves, or craft a GS fire absorption weapon, use cold shield, and keep re-casting fire protection (or just keep drink fire prot pots).

In my 2nd run, with 20% bonus + voice, it still give 19k xp. For a quest with decent xp, it is suppose to be challenging. I do not think this quest is broken. However, there does exist a bug that the kobold may jump to an untouchable spot (to melees).

LookingForABentoBox
12-23-2009, 12:02 PM
For those who think this quest is broken should start a thread in the Quests & Adventures forum to gather some strategies before suggesting it is broken.

there are many different ways to finish the quest. My drow wiz 18 just solo'd it twice easily. It took me 30-35 mins and used DD twice. Just buff up with cold shield and fire resist, run in, exhaust the kobold (optional), then use CoC and Otiluke to nuke everything without using any special tactic. when i run out of mana, DD, use rest shrine and come back. In the past, I 2-man'd the quest with 2 casters and we didn't need to use DD at all.

The main threat in that room is the meteor swarm, and the key is to kill it asap. After mod 9, I tested the meteor swarn damage with my sorc 20 and have recorded the damage figures:
http://www.ddoer.com/guide/quest/kobold
My interpretation is only the meteor swarm does meaningful damage to a caster who has good fire damage reduction and absorption. And in general, all mobs in that room deal with small damage figure.

You also have to handle the aggro of living spells and fire elementals, so they won't shoot lots of DBF to the main party. Most people know we can kite them. Other than the fire eles, any caster could kill them easily with CoC, Otiluke, and polar ray. All mobs in that room are vulnerable to cold spell.

Acid fog and ooze puppet are almost useless. By the time you get a crit AF, the fight will have ended already. Ooze puppet should have around 5% chance of landing, i guess.

Evasion is not necessarily, but you either need reflex save to avoid cometfall knockdown or with high enough HP to survive when you are knocked down. if you don't have a healer who can survive in that room, you got to be able to self-heal. You can't reduce the bludgeoning damage but you could reduce any fire damage with firestorm greaves, or craft a GS fire absorption weapon, use cold shield, and keep re-casting fire protection (or just keep drink fire prot pots).

In my 2nd run, with 20% bonus + voice, it still give 19k xp. For a quest with decent xp, it is suppose to be challenging. I do not think this quest is broken. However, there does exist a bug that the kobold may jump to an untouchable spot (to melees).

You did all this with a full group or a small group? When I did the quest and everyone was dying from fire damage it was a full group, so maybe you were having an easier time because of dungeon scaling.

Krell
12-24-2009, 01:03 AM
AD is right on this one.

You've also been around long enough to remember when the meteor swarm could be evaded AND when you would enfeeble the spells and have them stay that way.

That version of the quest presented multiple options at completion and I would say was better balanced with the rest of the quest. With the nerf to stat damage and the huge buff to meteor swarm, this quest is now out of wack.

Also begs the side question of: "whats the point of evasion if you can get pounded by chain casting living spells' meteor swarms?" I'd like to see meteor swarm nerfed back down to all evade-able (both for mobs and players.) It used to be that you could mitigate the fire part with buffs and only suffer half (the bludgeon part) even without evasion. Now there is little difference between evasion and no evasion. I'd also be happy going back to not auto-regenning stat damage (both mobs and players).

I think in general living meteor spells are unbalanced. I was hit by one today for 275 just running to VOD. Can't evade, can't protect, they chain cast. This quest was biased toward evasion characters before this change, same with SoS. I can live with that. At least a good healer could keep you up most the time. But after the change people avoid the quest due to bad experiences. The best chance is to use questionable tactics such as pulling long distances and getting mobs stuck. Also, why does Ooze Puppet work anyways? This level 2 spells says "Telekinetically controls the actions of an enemy ooze, forcing it to change sides.". Also the boss climbing to the ceiling further raises the frustration level. This quest shouldn't be harder than Prey or Monestary at the end.

Suggestions?
Make it so the living spells don't respond or only respond every 3-4 minutes, or change cometfall or remove the living spell version from the game. Imagine a Horrid Wilting living spell. Put in some inviso walls to keep the boss off the roof. Reduce fire elemental health. I think this would put it in line with the other refuge quests.

In short, the quest is do-able but not in line with the adventure area in my opinion. I've been in a few groups where people talk about what quests to run. Everyone is up for prey and monestary but when kobold comes up, people start talking about why they don't want to run it.

firegood
12-24-2009, 01:49 AM
Have you been in since the changes I mentioned? I think they both happened at the same time scaling did (or close to it). Maybe you've not been in since?

I didn't mind it too much before, but I find it annoying now. I'd rather run coal chamber... :eek:

Yes, it's not hard. No one in my party had evasion. Caster FvS, Melee FvS, warforged wizard. 40 FR FvS and fireshield on the wizard, we had all the spells and mephits charmed the entire fight. This is probably a very strange group that we play, we can all heal and have good fire res, but it was really a joke. No challenge at all on normal.

Varis
12-24-2009, 03:39 AM
if you're a sorcerer and you didn't treat reflex like **** you can solo "enter the kobold" without greaves.... on hard. (elite they spam dispell making it a wee bit inconvenient solo)

You run in, up the hill and nuke downslope. No holding back, only pause quickly to use a heal scroll. I like to rotate cone of cold and polar ray, targeting the kobold. It is essential that you adjust yourself so the kobold is always between you and the horde of mephits, elementals and living spells.

Cone of cold will take care of the mephits quickly and keep the living spells in check. IF however, you keep missing the meteorswarm with cone of cold you need to jump down and kill it or you will end up spending too much time healing.

If you run out of mana, DD out to shrine up again. Rule of thumb... DD in between kobold and efreet fight or you risk a reset.
Also, the harder you nuke, the fewer times you have to worry about the meteor respawn. In my case I don't have to kill him more then twice.

LookingForABentoBox
12-24-2009, 07:03 AM
if you're a sorcerer and you didn't treat reflex like **** you can solo "enter the kobold" without greaves.... on hard. (elite they spam dispell making it a wee bit inconvenient solo)

You run in, up the hill and nuke downslope. No holding back, only pause quickly to use a heal scroll. I like to rotate cone of cold and polar ray, targeting the kobold. It is essential that you adjust yourself so the kobold is always between you and the horde of mephits, elementals and living spells.

Cone of cold will take care of the mephits quickly and keep the living spells in check. IF however, you keep missing the meteorswarm with cone of cold you need to jump down and kill it or you will end up spending too much time healing.

If you run out of mana, DD out to shrine up again. Rule of thumb... DD in between kobold and efreet fight or you risk a reset.
Also, the harder you nuke, the fewer times you have to worry about the meteor respawn. In my case I don't have to kill him more then twice.

I don't think being able to solo it on normal is an indicator to how hard it is with a group, because of dungeon scaling.

Glenalth
12-24-2009, 07:50 AM
The kobold jumping onto spots where you can't hit him and regenerating to full health for no reason tend to make the end much more frustrating than enjoyable IMO.

RAGE!

Had him do that 3 different times on a solo run including once when he was low enough to spawn the djinn. Was getting very, very angry. I would have given up but it was the principle of the thing at that point.

Typical group tactics that have been working well for me is to have one evasion type with some sort of healing ability kite everything except the names in a circle while the rest of the group fights the named and then does cleanup, pulling 1 mob at a time so they don't get toasted too bad by the fire ele auras.

Varis
12-24-2009, 12:00 PM
I don't think being able to solo it on normal is an indicator to how hard it is with a group, because of dungeon scaling.

I have soloed it on hard and I have killed the kobold with 5 stones in my bag and duo/3man the quest ALL the time. He is simply NOT hard on normal. The only thing you notice a bit more is damage from the meteorswarm but if you do your job and pay attention that won't be an issue at all.

maddmatt70
12-24-2009, 12:10 PM
No do not change a thing. The casual players already have the IQ snoozefest. I am so happy for a challenge of any sort at the end game. Please do not make this end fight easier. The challenge aspect of it makes it fun.

LookingForABentoBox
12-24-2009, 01:41 PM
No do not change a thing. The casual players already have the IQ snoozefest. I am so happy for a challenge of any sort at the end game. Please do not make this end fight easier. The challenge aspect of it makes it fun.

A) Taking out the respawning nature of mobs, or making the elementals orange-named, would, IMHO, make the quest a lot less annoying but still challenging. There's a difference between frustrating and challenging, I'm okay with having difficult opponents but difficult opponents that you can't kill for more than a short period of time I never was a huge fan of, since these elementals can't be charmed or flesh-to-stoned or anything.

B) Someone looking for a challenge can always do quests on hard and elite, quests are generally a lot more challenging on hard or elite than on normal, but a level 17 quest on normal shouldn't be harder than level 17-20 quests on hard or elite. Hard an elite would still be there for people who want increased rewards and increased challenges, normal would be there for people who are okay with not having the perfect group makeup with perfect gear to do a level 17 quest

ddoer
12-25-2009, 03:32 AM
You did all this with a full group or a small group? When I did the quest and everyone was dying from fire damage it was a full group, so maybe you were having an easier time because of dungeon scaling.


I don't think being able to solo it on normal is an indicator to how hard it is with a group, because of dungeon scaling.

how well do your party, esp the party leader, know about the quest? how well are your build and do you have any fire defensive gears like Firestorm Greaves? what tactic did you use? Perhaps it is time for you to stop complaining the quest is broken but to learn about the quest, figure out a better tactic, improving your build/gear (such as gear or umd for cold shield). If six people with no clue rush in and fight randomly, it is expected that they'll get wiped easily.

dungeon scaling makes a quest harder but getting a few more people outweigh the increase in difficulty. when you drop in HP or get killed, somebody else could save you. and you have more dps to kill the mobs, have a chance to send a dedicated person to take care of the meteor swarm and do kiting, and could put a person at the switch as insurance. When i was in a full party, it took much shorter time to complete and I never need to DD out for mana.

sirgog
12-25-2009, 03:48 AM
This fight was tough at lvl16.. Now with lvl20s and stronger gear? Pfft it's not that hard.

Something does need to be done tho so the noobs don't get so confused.

Best thing to do would be to make every other high lvl quest have an actually challenging end fight, to be more even. Bring them all up to the level of this one, not the other way aroudn.

Or if it has to be nerfed for the -please-hold-my-hand kiddies.. At least maintain the difficulty on hard and elite, just make normal a joke for the players who hate having to use any kind of tactics or strategy, just give an incentive to run it on the higher difficulties.

Give normal just a 50% chance at a rune/essence, and no draconics. While hard has a 100% chance, 10 draconics, and elite has a 100% chance, 20 draconics, and a moderate chance for a 2nd eldritch rune each run.

Or it could be noobified ala SoS:
Quest completes once you reach the lava barrier and pick up the essence (nothing else in the chest), but end fight is an optional you do after that gives the large majority of xp (Regular quest xp nerfed and instead put into the optional), and has 1-3 loot chests (# of chests depends on difficulty) and the eldritch rune.

This quest is harder to beat with geared level 20s now than it was to beat with geared 16s back when it launched, due to the stat damage nerfs and the Meteor Swarm buffs.

On Normal I don't find it tough as long as I'm with competent players and at least one evasion toon. But it's still pretty clearly the hardest quest in the game to beat on Normal. Only one or two other quests require the same playskill or tactics to beat on Normal (A New Invasion is the only one I can think of) and it is much, much more forgiving.

IMO they could just change the quest level to 21, and leave everything as it is, and this quest would be perfectly in-tune with the difficulty of other quests in the game. It's silly that it's a prerequisite for SoS, which despite being the climactic finish of Mod 8 is massively easier to beat in a PUG than EtK is.

LookingForABentoBox
12-25-2009, 05:00 AM
how well do your party, esp the party leader, know about the quest? how well are your build and do you have any fire defensive gears like Firestorm Greaves? what tactic did you use? Perhaps it is time for you to stop complaining the quest is broken but to learn about the quest, figure out a better tactic, improving your build/gear (such as gear or umd for cold shield). If six people with no clue rush in and fight randomly, it is expected that they'll get wiped easily.

dungeon scaling makes a quest harder but getting a few more people outweigh the increase in difficulty. when you drop in HP or get killed, somebody else could save you. and you have more dps to kill the mobs, have a chance to send a dedicated person to take care of the meteor swarm and do kiting, and could put a person at the switch as insurance. When i was in a full party, it took much shorter time to complete and I never need to DD out for mana.

I wasn't "complaining" I was asking a clarification question. And as for needing firestorm greaves and cold fire shield, that's all well and dandy but personally I can't afford firestorm greaves and I haven't found any yet. More to the point, how many level 17 quests do you know that require firestorm greaves and cold fire shield to beat the end boss? I didn't say it was impossible, I'm claiming that for a level 17 quest on normal its difficulty is off.

Junts
12-25-2009, 05:08 AM
I wasn't "complaining" I was asking a clarification question. And as for needing firestorm greaves and cold fire shield, that's all well and dandy but personally I can't afford firestorm greaves and I haven't found any yet. More to the point, how many level 17 quests do you know that require firestorm greaves and cold fire shield to beat the end boss? I didn't say it was impossible, I'm claiming that for a level 17 quest on normal its difficulty is off.



The quest requires neither; however, it would be very happy if you either learned fire shield or ooze puppet. I strongly recommend fire shield, as its an indispensible high-level spell.

Ooze puppet is excellent for this particular quest, however.

What you're running into is called 'the downside of being a sorc' (I have one too). A wizard could easily swap spells and make the fight laughably easy.

LookingForABentoBox
12-25-2009, 05:11 AM
The quest requires neither; however, it would be very happy if you either learned fire shield or ooze puppet. I strongly recommend fire shield, as its an indispensible high-level spell.

Ooze puppet is excellent for this particular quest, however.

What you're running into is called 'the downside of being a sorc' (I have one too). A wizard could easily swap spells and make the fight laughably easy.

I have fire shield, I don't necessarily group with people who do

Junts
12-25-2009, 05:24 AM
I have fire shield, I don't necessarily group with people who do

Then spam ye some cone of colds and commence chicken-jumping.

Only one person needs to take the aggro of all the fire-spamming mobs, and wehther you're jumping around and under the little archway and throwing protect elements on yourself (and consequently only taking real damage from meteor swarms) or charming the meteor swarms and kiting all the other stuff the same way, everyone else should be free to tackle desaga in the back corner of the top and beat the ever-living **** out of him.

The spells respawn anyway; any group attempting to fight in the middle of them or without them all trained on one person is going to fail no matter what. You either charm the best ones (the meteor swarms, who do damage the others arent immune to) and kite the elementals, or you just kite all the others and are a great kiter.

There's literally no real answer to the end of that quest that doesn't involve spell kiting. Killing them is simply impossible due to the respawn timer. Since the spells die instantly when desaga and the efreeti do, it is far easier to kill the fire elementals after the quest is over than beforehand. Killing those fire elementals before downing the named is a huge, huge mistake.

ETK is an excellent lesson in learning to dodge fireballs/meteors/cometfalls, and an important one for any caster.

LookingForABentoBox
12-25-2009, 05:37 AM
There's literally no real answer to the end of that quest that doesn't involve spell kiting.

Why is this a better design mechanic than making them not respawn? I don't see how it's very fun. Why should be more effective to run around in circles than to kill things? I understand how quests like Let Sleeping Dust Lie have an added tactic to make it challenging where there are things you can't kill because they aren't enemies but what's the point of designing a quest where killing enemies just isn't recommended?

Junts
12-25-2009, 05:50 AM
Why is this a better design mechanic than making them not respawn? I don't see how it's very fun. Why should be more effective to run around in circles than to kill things? I understand how quests like Let Sleeping Dust Lie have an added tactic to make it challenging where there are things you can't kill because they aren't enemies but what's the point of designing a quest where killing enemies just isn't recommended?

Because it requires players to think and use some ingenuity instead of simply stacking up bigger and bigger nukes on both sides. The alternative are quests like epic, where they just give the mobs huge damage output and hp and immunities ... trust me, figuring out ETK is a lot more fun

DDO's biggest selling point is an active and agile combat system; if it's not the solution to a problem now and then, what benefit is it?

Sometimes brute force doesn't need to be the answer; frankly, I'd take ETK or Prey's mechanics over the kind of **** we got with DD any time.

You -could- probably kill some of the spells, the respawn timer is about 60 seconds; in my experience, however, its simply too resource-intensive and time consuming because you need to kill them several times in the time it takes to dps down desaga.

There are actually a lot of quests with choke points, skipping or kiting mechanics (Nythiros?) but many of them have become must-kill situations due to Dungeon Alert or simply characters being so powerful in the quests now that people don't really care.

To be honest, most groups can brute force it with only a few mobs (mostly the meteor swarm) kept away from the party. However, those groups usually have evasion healers in them :)

Shade
12-25-2009, 06:38 AM
The spells respawn anyway; any group attempting to fight in the middle of them or without them all trained on one person is going to fail no matter what. You either charm the best ones (the meteor swarms, who do damage the others arent immune to) and kite the elementals, or you just kite all the others and are a great kiter.

....
You -could- probably kill some of the spells, the respawn timer is about 60 seconds; in my experience, however, its simply too resource-intensive and time consuming because you need to kill them several times in the time it takes to dps down desaga.


lol you really need to learn what real dps melee can perform before spouting this kind of nonsense.

I've done the quest over 40 times and never has my strategy included anyone kiting anything, and i've never failed this quest (about 2 tries with my new lesser equiped characters have failed on a first attempt but alawys suceeded on a 2nd try). Kiting is for weak groups that otherwise can't handle the fight normally. A few times evasion clr/fvs have foricbly grabbed the agro and done so, and it sure it works, but it was never a key to success.

I can DPS down Dresage before the first meteor even spawns. For 2-3 average dps melee, it's a rather trivial task. I can understand it's tough for sword and board meleel ike yourself, but play a real melee and it's not so hard.

Then after that the meteor swarm wil be attacking us shortly, but it has maybe 600-900 hp.. So I kill it in 3-6 seconds. In generaly this seems to be the hardest part for most melee as it moves around fast and is hard to locate in the mass confusion of other ****, so often evne if I have many other melee in the group, im the only one who hits it.. Accurate targetting of the right foes is probably the most difficult task in this encounter.

After that given your estimation of 60 seconds to kill the Efreeti? Again an easy task for any group who has some dps melee in it. Even the if the swarm respawns slightly before he dies, the latest changes include them despawning the moment the efreeti dies, making killing him fast rather effective.

Tactics like charming and kitings are valid and usuable in weaker groups, but the fight is well balanced to just straigt up brute force, even with only 1 melee. Sometimes you'll need a bit of healing, but really how much healing you need is exactly proportional to how fast you kill.. Giving the moderate hp the bosses have in this fight - I tend to deal more damage to myself with frenzy then the monsters get a chance to deal to me.

To me, it seems like if you play any kind of melee spec'd for DPS but can't handle this fight in a short time.. It's time to bunker down and either get some stronger equipment and try agian, or just reroll because this is a solid test of your abilities that you should pass should you desire to move onto harder content.

Junts
12-25-2009, 06:42 AM
lol you really need to learn what real dps melee can perform before spouting this kind of nonsense.

I've done the quest over 40 times and never has my strategy included anyone kiting anything. Kiting is for weak groups that otherwise can't handle the fight normally. A few times evasion clr/fvs have foricbly grabbed the agro and done so, and it sure it works, but it was never a key to success.

I can DPS down Dresage before the first meteor even spawns. For 2-3 average dps melee, it's a rather trivial task. I can understand it's tough for sword and board meleel ike yourself, but play a real melee and it's not so hard.

Then after that the meteor swarm wil be attacking us shortly, but it has maybe 600-900 hp.. So I kill it in 3-6 seconds.

After that given your estimation of 60 seconds to kill the Efreeti? Again an easy task for any group who has some dps melee in it. Even the if the swarm respawns slightly before he dies, the latest changes include them despawning the moment the efreeti dies, making killing him fast rather effective.

Tactics like charming and kitings are valid and usuable in weaker groups, but the fight is well balanced to just straigt up brute force, even with only 1 melee. Sometimes you'll need a bit of healing, but really how much healing you need is exactly proportional to how fast you kill.. Giving the moderate hp the bosses have in this fight - I tend to deal more damage to myself with frenzy then the monsters get a chance to deal to me.

To me, it seems like if you play any kind of melee spec'd for DPS but can't handle this fight in a short time.. It's time to bunker down and either get some stronger equipment and try agian, or just reroll because this is a solid test of your abilities that you should pass should you desire to move onto harder content.

The living spells begin to spawn at ~12 seconds after engagement. They spawn every 10 seconds thereafter.

At the level 16 cap, you were not killing Desaga in 12 seconds.

You have such incredible tunnel-vision I'd be shocked if you were aware what the rest of your party is doing. The fire elementals don't spawn until Desaga reaches 1/3 life, however, and rarely finish spawning and respond before he's more than half dead. Desaga does basically no damage and the efreeti has only a moderate melee; if your hp aren't moving, its because other people have the elemental aggro. That is no shock to me, since that is the proper way to play the quest.

I don't care how incredibly uber you think you are, even on normal, it's at least a 25-30 second beatdown. Desaga's a wuss, but he's a jumpy wuss.

Or, in other words, I call ********.


Regardless, the OP clearly has problems with this fight, and consequently giving them a strategy designed for a poor pug group instead of a very high-end group is clearly a good idea; if a straight beatdown worked, he would not have made the thread. My last dps to level up soloed this fight at level 15; clearly, however, the people the OP is grouping with are neither as knowledgable nor as well equipped.

Just because you and I can do it doesn't make it good strategy or advice; we're simply so far past the quest in power level that it doesn't matter anymore.

I have this feeling you'd benefit a lot from leveling up a new melee character and being reminded how much of our DPS output is loot-related.

Eldradn
07-15-2011, 04:32 AM
First, anyone who says this quest should be nerfed should either play it on casual (that is what it is there for) or pick a different quest to play. That being said, the ending of ETK is disproportionally difficult for a level 17 quest and does require either specialized equipment, a specialized character (or a wizard), or characters equipped well above the equipment level of a first time through 17 char -- I still do the IQ quests before ETK and they are labeled as 18, 19 and 20. Personally I believe they should make the IQ quests harder so they fit their suggested levels but either way ETK should be made more proportional to its level -- a 17 challenging should not be harder than an 18 much less a 19 or a 20.

I think back to my first run of many of these quests, and I realize that there is a consistent problem, which I think should be addressed: The quest is a cakewalk then the boss -- who you reach after 30 minutes or so of wasted time is anywhere from challenging to, if ill equipped or uneducated, impossible. Poof, wasted 30 minutes for some poor nub or even for some unlucky party from a new guild who doesn't want to waste money on cake after reading the forums.

The start of the quest should give you an idea of the difficulty level of the rest of the quest. Consider the Siegebreaker quest -- the first time I played it, my level 13 rouge got wiped about 30 seconds into the quest by the surge of onrushing enemies -- I didn't try it again till I was 15th level and the quest was challenging (remember **** gear at the time and no guild) but manageable. I wish all quests had something like this in the first 5 minutes of play -- an encounter that either wipes you or tells you that, with proper strategy, you have a fighting chance against the boss.

With all the above said, about 90% of bosses in the game need to be made more challenging, and their quests need to be modified to match. Make them push overs on casual but give a reasonable challenge (that is made clear early) on normal, and leave hard and elite for more veteran players or well coordinated parties. Remember, nubs matter too, and though the rest of us shouldn't suffer for their inexperience, they shouldn't have to waste their time dungeon crawling only to figure out at the boss just how inadequate their gear/experience is.

Lemanchot
07-15-2011, 04:55 AM
UMD +fire shield(cold) versions makes evasion worthless for this fight.
Also the spell itself works good for a caster.

Symbol of persuasion is nice to have even if you're a cleric. So you can charm a couple mephits.

I only read main post, all the rest seem to be a "My father is stronger than yours" discussion.

So I may have repeated some of the tricks that been said.

Xyfiel
07-15-2011, 05:13 AM
-1 rep for necro
+1 rep for first post
no rep given

Templarion
07-15-2011, 05:44 AM
[EDITED]

OMG - I didn't realize the post date of this thread.... :O


Nvm what I said. This thread should not even exist.

Lemanchot
07-15-2011, 06:11 AM
We want more challenge - not less. There should be more challenging quests and Enter the Kobold's only challenge lies in boss chamber. The way there should be also more challenging.

This quest was nerfed already. Do not nerf it again!

Instead, make other Reaver quests more challenging.

I agree, there should be quest with more challenging encounters. Asking the best of us in every aspects.

Thus, don't need to have uber items as rewards.
A new skin, a special pet (you know decorative kind with enough AI to follow the owner) or finally having a graphics for cloaks which we could had an unique tag over.

Something that makes a difference between casual and outstanding player.

Because smashing 1 button mindlessly until lvl100 is great for customizing some gear but doesn't any specific ability over gameplay and intelligence.

I'll take A new invasion end boss fight. Imagine a raid of 12 people that needs to move together and hitting a boss.

MrLarone
07-15-2011, 06:13 AM
NECRO'D THREAD

originally began in 2009

dodger72
07-15-2011, 10:07 AM
-1 rep for necro
+1 rep for first post
no rep given

^ this

teamghost
07-15-2011, 10:23 AM
This pack is definitely NOT for level 17 at Normal...I just ran Prey on the Hunter four times with a very competent party where we breezed right through the whole quest, including, running Hasted through the maze and losing no time, only to have the dragon die within seconds of our arrival on three runs and glitch right on top of the giant with full aggro another time...don't know what they did to the quest but it was an impossible scenario...oh, and NOT fun or "challenging".

grodon9999
07-15-2011, 10:34 AM
More end fights should be like this.

Chai
07-15-2011, 10:41 AM
More end fights should be like this.

YUS!!!

There are too many anticlimactic boss fights in this game. The entity that bosses every mob in the dungeon around should not just be able to be gang tackled and forced to say uncle in less than 10 seconds. If this is the case, some other mobs in the dungeon should have kicked its butt and taken over if its that weak.

Samiusbot
07-15-2011, 10:44 AM
Send in your caster alone. Use Dots. Like the new 5 level ones and Ice storm, make sure the caster has proper buffs running, and stands near the top. If the caster can not self heal good enough, after he has the agro and is going to keep it via Ice storm and whatnot send in someone to heal.

Or have everyone but the healer rush in and circle the kobold. keep him trapped and beat down fast. No one runs, no one backs off. let the healer come up a few seconds later and use mass cures.

grodon9999
07-15-2011, 10:45 AM
YUS!!!

There are too many anticlimactic boss fights in this game. The entity that bosses every mob in the dungeon around should not just be able to be gang tackled and forced to say uncle in less than 10 seconds. If this is the case, some other mobs in the dungeon should have kicked its butt and taken over if its that weak.

i think "In the Flesh" on elite is the new ETK. That one kicked my TR-team's butt repeatedly before we got it. normal's easy, but I'm digging that the new stuff amps up pretty high on elite. The Lordsmarch mobs on Elite are much tougher than the higher level GH quests. Almost looks like the elites have been balanced for TRs.

Chai
07-15-2011, 10:47 AM
i think "In the Flesh" on elite is the new ETK.

We did that one in permadeath. We jumped in thinking it would be somewhat harder than hard difficulty, and the first thing I hear while loading over is "umm, theres HUGE beholders in here guys....."

That one is my favorite "new" quest out of all the "new" stuff that has come out since the sharn stuff happened 18 months ago, due to the very nature of that end fight. It involves alot of paying attention to whats going on around us rather than "there he is, get em" /pile on > beatdown > win > take lunch money.

LookingForABentoBox
07-15-2011, 11:08 AM
Oh my goodness have I really spent more than a year and a half playing DDO?
(<- OP)

Bargol
07-15-2011, 11:10 AM
Serious necro going on here........

Most of whats said in this thread is from 2009. Reavers Refuge, the quests, and dragon touched have been nerfed a few times since the original 2009 postings. ETK on normal is a breeze with evasion...even without its not hard if with a decent group. They have made dragon touched armor so easy to get and with runes labeled easy to get the runes you want via trading in chest.

Garix
07-15-2011, 11:38 AM
Oh my goodness have I really spent more than a year and a half playing DDO?
(<- OP)


Do you still feal the same way about the quest?

countfitz
07-15-2011, 04:27 PM
So, what I'm understanding from those who want it to stay the same is you NEED a very SPECIFIC BUILD, not good players, to finish this quest. You all might be saying something else, but in every example to say it is doable, you'd need a wizard with a high save, specific feats, and a specific, never used spell. You need AN EVASION TANK. You'd then need, on that evasion tank, a Hammerblock item and enough dps to take aggro. THEN KITE HIM IN THE MAZE (btw, thanks for the advice, last time I ran this they still rubberbanded back). Then, the people in charge of killing the boss need to do it in a way that doesn't let him HEAL FOR NO REASON!

I solo Dreaming in the Dark, the highest level quest in the game, just to use an altar. But this level 17 quest requires a team of players specific to this quest. There are two things wrong with this. 1, Dreaming needs to be WAY harder. 2. EtK needs to be FIXED. NOT NERFED, FIXED. Killing a red name SHOULD NEVER result in a respawning red name. Using tactics should NEVER result in a redname regaining all his HP. And ****ING KOBOLDS CAN'T FLY!!!! This goes for WWs too.

Devs, if Kobolds are ever released as Player Characters, disregard that last part.

I have, btw, done this quest on normal just fine with decent lvl 20s, zerg at the boss and take his ass out in one try. That's how I usually do it. Full team, all lit 2s, hit boss as hard as possible with everything you have, get chest and die. Once even finished out.

donfilibuster
07-16-2011, 01:53 AM
Ah, the good old days. That was why i called that quest 'Reenter the Kobold'.

May be worth the necro if it reminds people it is already changed and was fairly harder before.

There's various ways to deal with it, from bum rushing with mass heals to kiting by attrition, so you can try out things.

Robai
07-16-2011, 05:53 AM
This is one of the quests that is way easier to solo than with a full group.
Now I always solo this quest on casual and get easy Khyber essence when needed.
Unless I help my guildies, then it's an interesting challenge for me in this quest :)

eulogy098
07-16-2011, 06:27 AM
Reaver Refuge end fighters are fine, its the rest of the quests that are way, way too easy.


Please significantly increase the difficulty of the quests. I had no trouble farming RR quests in under 10 to 15 min each with nothing but level 16s. They are too easy and I am not the worlds best player.



No more dumbing down of quests.



Noone should ever request any Normal, Hard or Elite quest in DDO be made easier. Run casual if you cant handle it. That difficulty was made just for you, stop duming down my game for the weenies >_<

LookingForABentoBox
07-19-2011, 03:11 PM
Do you still feal the same way about the quest?

Good question. I actually haven't run it in a long time so I don't know, but since this thread the devs have lessened the amount of living spells and added casual difficulty, so I guess it would be easier nowadays. I guess I'll have to go back and try it some time.



Noone should ever request any Normal, Hard or Elite quest in DDO be made easier. Run casual if you cant handle it. That difficulty was made just for you, stop duming down my game for the weenies >_<

This thread was before casual existed :)

Timmeke123456
07-19-2011, 03:27 PM
anyone without evasion died relatively quickly

You already know where the problem lies right? ==> Get evasion & decent reflex save! :D

Cordovan
07-20-2011, 02:06 PM
Thread necro.