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View Full Version : FAST and SOLID Rogue 15 / Wizard 5. Ideas to share!



JagoKnight
12-10-2009, 05:19 PM
Hi.
I present this idea of mine to share my fun DDo character building experience with you guys and in hope that some of you can share YOUR DDo knowledge with me since I have been playing actively for JUST 2 month now. I did pure classes up until now and that would be MY FIRST MULTICLASS toon.

The purpose of this char is to , first of all, DO WHAT NORMAL ROGUES DO. I mean by that: disabling traps, sneak attack , good DPS and helping the group with Use magic devices. I have a pure rogue already using dex base TWF and weapon finess. I want a change. I will use THF feat selection with the rogue ( you probably guessed, will be a Thief Accrobat using a quarterstaff).


So to make a long story short (28pts build):
starting with :

16 str for strong melee attacks
12 dex for more AC
14 con for survavibility
12 int for wiz casts and for rogue skills
10 wis for NO PENALTY on will saves
10 char for NO PENALTY on Use Magic Device


5th level wizard use 3rd level spell so I would probably use a +1 int tome later on.
The main purpose of getting 5 level of wizard is for BLUR and FOR HASTE and FOR 2 METAMAGIC FREE FEATS.
I would be abble to spend my ''regular'' feats on melee damage as my 2 free meta feats would be all the magic related feats that I would need ( extend spell pretty much for 1 min hastes and the other feat is still a free slot (suggestions?)).

15th level Rogue ( thats the most important in the build ) so I can have all the greatness that rogues gets while avoiding their crappy capstone. Been level 15 rogue gives me good UMD , good trapfinding (with the help of items/potions/enhencments of course) and good sneak attack damage. I am going for full Thief accrobat so I can COMBINE THIEF ACCROBAT SPEED WITH WIZ'S HASTE GOODNESS!

Feats will be THF lines for more damage , power attack for more damage, toughness for more survivability and more.



I need suggestion principaly with feats and I also need overall thoughts on this build.
Would I have enough SP ( been only 5 lvl wiz ) to cast BLUR and HASTE often enough ( I can take enhencments too)
I am open for anything but KEEP the spirit of Rogue please because this is my main focus here.

binnsr
12-10-2009, 05:22 PM
You don't need 5 levels of wizard on a rogue to be a wizard..

Invest in Use Magic Device :)

JagoKnight
12-10-2009, 05:25 PM
Like I said in this post, I will. This is why I have 10 Cha.
Are you telling me that there are easy to find HASTE wands all over the place starting level 12 ?
If there is , im gonna change my build.

Kaervas
12-10-2009, 05:30 PM
Well there are Haste potions readily available from potion vendors across Stormreach and beyond.

Caster level 5, so 30 second duration.

Thrudh
12-10-2009, 05:32 PM
You can make 1:30 3/day haste clickables in the Shroud...

You can find long-lasting Jump +30 clickables now...

Blur can be made permenant on a Shroud item (or other raid items)

You can make 1:30 2/day Displacement clickables in the Shroud...

Shield is free for Tempest III characters, you get +2 just for Tempest I...

Basically Turbine has made multi-classing into wizard or sorc a bad idea... And I hate them for it... Too many magik items in the world... I speak from experience... I have a semi-retired 12/5 ranger/wizard who used to be very useful, but I might as well build a ranger/monk instead and use clickables...

Impaqt
12-10-2009, 05:32 PM
More Appropriet Title: Fast and FLAWED. How to Gimp your Rogue by trying to go the wrong direction to do what you think you need.

A Rogue can already do what your after with UMD.

Blue wands can be looted at a L10 Caster level. Thats 10 Minutes of Blue. Just like what this guy would cast at level 5 Extended.

Haste? Comes in Pots.. ANd Scrolls... and most importantly Other members of your party. If your Not grouping, Get a Hireling to Haste ya if 30 seconds at a time isnt enough.

While the rogue Capstone may not be exciting, Tier 3 PrE's are. Well, at least the one we have so far. Acrobat 3 will most likely be something you want.

ROgues ALso get extra Special ABilities at l16 and 19. Very Handy

ROgues also get extra Sneak attack Damage at 17 and 19.

Do doing this you give up...

Capstone (never know when TUrbine will FIx the current one or add more)
Tier 3 PrE's
2 SPecial Abilities
2d6 of Sneak Attack Damage
30 Skill Points

And in Return you get.
-2 to your BAB.
-10 Hit Points
The ability to cast a Few 1 Minute Hastes.
2 MetaMagic Feat.


Thats not a good trade off at all.

Thrudh
12-10-2009, 05:33 PM
Well there are Haste potions readily available from potion vendors across Stormreach and beyond.

Caster level 5, so 30 second duration.

Self-cast haste (even at only a minute) is a LOT nicer than drinking potions...

However, using a 1:30 haste clickable is nicer than using a 1 minute spell.

Thrudh
12-10-2009, 05:36 PM
More Appropriet Title: Fast and FLAWED. How to Gimp your Rogue by trying to go the wrong direction to do what you think you need.

A Rogue can already do what your after with UMD.

Blue wands can be looted at a L10 Caster level. Thats 10 Minutes of Blue. Just like what this guy would cast at level 5 Extended.

Haste? Comes in Pots.. ANd Scrolls... and most importantly Other members of your party. If your Not grouping, Get a Hireling to Haste ya if 30 seconds at a time isnt enough.

While the rogue Capstone may not be exciting, Tier 3 PrE's are. Well, at least the one we have so far. Acrobat 3 will most likely be something you want.

ROgues ALso get extra Special ABilities at l16 and 19. Very Handy

ROgues also get extra Sneak attack Damage at 17 and 19.

Do doing this you give up...

Capstone (never know when TUrbine will FIx the current one or add more)
Tier 3 PrE's
2 SPecial Abilities
2d6 of Sneak Attack Damage
30 Skill Points

And in Return you get.
-2 to your BAB.
-10 Hit Points
The ability to cast a Few 1 Minute Hastes.
2 MetaMagic Feat.


Thats not a good trade off at all.

I agree with most of what you say, but just want to point out short-lived scrolls suck... Don't use them as an example... 1 minute self-caste haste is about 10x better than using a haste scroll every 30 seconds...

Self-caste displacement is the main reason to take 5 levels of wizard... Being perma-displaced is HUGE... but now we have Shroud clickables....

JagoKnight
12-10-2009, 05:38 PM
Ok to continu with the idea, my goal would be attack speed , Rogue skills and Survivibility.
I dont think I can keep up with those 30 sec potions your talking about because I want to be on this HASTE extacy 24/7. lol! That would cost me around 20 pots per dongeon I make and I AM NOT RICH.

Also , since I want survivibility, im going for 5 lvl of WIZ to get blur too. Blurr is very important when you dont have alot of AC like this build. Im getting UMD to use Wands of healing so I can help the party. I beleive 5 lvl of Wiz is worth it since you dont get much from those last 5 lvl of rogue ( +2d6 sneak attack and crappy capstone and 1 more special rogue ability ? ).

Now the debate goes toward :
Is it worth it to spend 5 lvl in Wizard to get haste and blur ?!

CrimsonReLLiK
12-10-2009, 05:41 PM
Now the debate goes toward :
Is it worth it to spend 5 lvl in Wizard to get haste and blur ?!


No.

Impaqt
12-10-2009, 05:47 PM
5 Levels of Wizard is going to net yuou about 250 Spell Points.

Lets say you can get to a Shrine every 10 Minutes..... Most likely thats not gonna happen..... Many quests, especially when soloing, you wont see a shrine for at least 20 if not more..... But I digress...


20 Points - Extended Blur 10 Minutes
250 Points 10 Extended Haste casts.....
---

Whoops.. We have already used up every single spell point we have..

No Jump.. No DIsplacement. No Resists. nothing else at all...

JagoKnight
12-10-2009, 05:49 PM
5 Levels of Wizard is going to net yuou about 250 Spell Points.

Lets say you can get to a Shrine every 10 Minutes..... Most likely thats not gonna happen..... Many quests, especially when soloing, you wont see a shrine for at least 20 if not more..... But I digress...


20 Points - Extended Blur 10 Minutes
250 Points 10 Extended Haste casts.....
---

Whoops.. We have already used up every single spell point we have..

No Jump.. No DIsplacement. No Resists. nothing else at all...


You don't seem to like my idea at all. So from your perspective a lvl 20 rogue Thief accrobat with max UMD is a better solution ?

Impaqt
12-10-2009, 05:58 PM
You don't seem to like my idea at all. So from your perspective a lvl 20 rogue Thief accrobat with max UMD is a better solution ?

Yes. Or a Level 18/2Splash at least.

And if ya didnt notice. Its not just me not liking this. THis is a bad idea in todays DDO. THere are just way too many options other than sacrificing major class perks for mediocure ones.

binnsr
12-10-2009, 05:59 PM
Yes. Or a Level 18/2Splash at least.

And if ya didnt notice. Its not just me not liking this. THis is a bad idea in todays DDO. THere are just way too many options other than sacrificing major class perks for mediocure ones.

Personally, I'd go 19rog/1mnk .. but that's probably just me :)

Talon_Moonshadow
12-10-2009, 06:14 PM
You can make 1:30 3/day haste clickables in the Shroud...

You can find long-lasting Jump +30 clickables now...

Blur can be made permenant on a Shroud item (or other raid items)

You can make 1:30 2/day Displacement clickables in the Shroud...

Shield is free for Tempest III characters, you get +2 just for Tempest I...

Basically Turbine has made multi-classing into wizard or sorc a bad idea... And I hate them for it... Too many magik items in the world... I speak from experience... I have a semi-retired 12/5 ranger/wizard who used to be very useful, but I might as well build a ranger/monk instead and use clickables...

Traitor! :p

Not everyone is willing to run the Shroud over and over again to get all that.

And you of all people know how much fun a build like this can be.

I've made Dragon Marked meleers and those miniscule displacements are not nearly as much fun as having it on tap.

Now, if you are not sure, then I say stay pure.

Thrudh is right, there are other ways to get what you want.
And from what I hear, Assassination III rocks! So don't give that up without careful thought.

Also, it sounds like you may not get all you expect to.

You will not have the SP to be constantly hasted. but you can haste often.

I haven't lvled up a Rog/Wiz build yet. My experiance is with a Rgr/Wiz. Where I get SP from both classes, and bonus SP from both Wis and Int.

But I do tend to run out of SP more than I would like. (and my build's up to 711SP now!)
And as soon as you run out, you lose the advantage of this kind of build and become a weak for your lvl.

Od course you can supliment with wands and scrolls, but then a good UMD rogue could already do that. And backpack space is always at a premium.


Anyway, it is a fun build. I'm working on a few Wiz7 builds. One is a Rog13/Wiz7.

Lots of char slots and several servers.....

But if this is your first char, be very careful before commiting to a radical multi-class build.

Thrudh
12-10-2009, 11:43 PM
Traitor! :p

I know, I know!!! It's Turbines fault!


Not everyone is willing to run the Shroud over and over again to get all that.

True... 5 levels of wizard is a fun way to get haste, and displacement (being able to perma-displace makes a huge difference)... And if you're new and grinding out the Shroud isn't in your gameplan, than 5 levels of wizard can be fun...

Impact makes a good point that rogue/wizard will be hurting on SP... Mine is a ranger/wizard so I get SP from the ranger side too... I have about 700 as well, and I rarely run out...


And you of all people know how much fun a build like this can be.

Yep, it IS fun... I feel bad for trying to talk the OP out of it... I had more fun with Hasenpfeffer than any other character... This kind of character is GREAT for PUGing 6-man quests...

Just not so good on the newest raids, where the devs BALANCED the bad guys around everyone having PrEs or capstones... They've overpowered several Tier III PrEs and they've added more and more magik items, and they've really killed any good reason for arcane/melee multi-classes.

And that's too bad.

JagoKnight
12-10-2009, 11:54 PM
To make it simple :

CONS:
I lose sneak attack lvl 17 ( -1d6 damage )
I lose sneak attack lvl 19 ( -1d6 damage )
I lose trap sense level 18 ( this doesn't matters )
I lose 2 optional abilities lvl 16 and 19 ( this one hurts ,I don't like losing slippery mind and skill mastery )
I lose cheat death lvl 20 ( this doesn't matters )

PROS:
I gain the ability to cast level 5 Haste with extend spell
I gain the ability to cast level 5 Blur with extend spell
I gain the ability to cast Crowd control spells like HYPNOSIS and WEB...
I gain the ability to make UMD more powerfull with wizard scroll and wand mastery I
I gain the ability to make UMD more powerfull with wizard scroll and wand mastery 2
I gain bonus intelligence from wiz enhencments
I gain 2 metamagic feats

Kriogen
12-11-2009, 05:27 AM
WF Rogue13/Wizard7.

Wizard 5 is nice, but not that nice. You only get 2 level 3 spells slots. So what to mem, Haste, Displace, Rage or Sleet Storm... annoying.

Wizard 7 better. You also get 2 4th level spell slots. You can burn those pesky sneak attack immune undead for example :) You also have (will have) option for T2 rogue and T1 wizard PrE. Maybe even WF racial PrE. Oh, you can also self-repair from mana.

Stealthdog
12-11-2009, 05:39 AM
To make it simple :

CONS:
I lose sneak attack lvl 17 ( -1d6 damage )
I lose sneak attack lvl 19 ( -1d6 damage )
I lose trap sense level 18 ( this doesn't matters )
I lose 2 optional abilities lvl 16 and 19 ( this one hurts ,I don't like losing slippery mind and skill mastery )
I lose cheat death lvl 20 ( this doesn't matters )

PROS:
I gain the ability to cast level 5 Haste with extend spell
I gain the ability to cast level 5 Blur with extend spell
I gain the ability to cast Crowd control spells like HYPNOSIS and WEB...
I gain the ability to make UMD more powerfull with wizard scroll and wand mastery I
I gain the ability to make UMD more powerfull with wizard scroll and wand mastery 2
I gain bonus intelligence from wiz enhencments
I gain 2 metamagic feats

Other Cons:
I think you also lose BAB because of the 5 wiz levels also.

For the Pros
- as was mentioned, your first two Pros you don't need to add wizard levels to do. You can already do them with UMD and/or pots.
- you are casting your spells at a level 5 wizard level. Not sure how effective your crowd control spells will be against mid-high end mobs.

This build is going to be incredibly difficult to play. I don't see a whole lot of success of you outdamaging mobs.

18/2 is probably much more playable.

Executie
12-11-2009, 05:50 AM
Heh, wish I had seen this thread before I posted my "need advice" thread, http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218773 , as you can see I tried to make a 13/7 rog/wiz.

Now from my standpoint, a PF2P that has only seen lower level content, a self buffing rogue looked like a lot of fun! From the advice given by the more experienced saved me a lot of time and disappointment. While reading various posts I've learned little things here and there, like just recently how many of the buffs provided by my misguided build could be gained from clickies that are fairly common/easily obtained. (like 12 sec ago after reading posts here :O )

I also see a bunch of other new players like myself making bad decisions and many experienced players helping fix things but I have yet to come across a guide of some type explaining what to expect "beyond F2P." I'm sure such a guide would help many players! Of course I may have just missed it. If so please direct me to it!

Sorry for getting off topic, posting here to say, "hey this thread actually helped me, thanks for the, uh, bad idea ^.^!"

Thrudh
12-11-2009, 08:33 AM
To make it simple :

CONS:
I lose sneak attack lvl 17 ( -1d6 damage )
I lose sneak attack lvl 19 ( -1d6 damage )
I lose trap sense level 18 ( this doesn't matters )
I lose 2 optional abilities lvl 16 and 19 ( this one hurts ,I don't like losing slippery mind and skill mastery )
I lose cheat death lvl 20 ( this doesn't matters )

PROS:
I gain the ability to cast level 5 Haste with extend spell
I gain the ability to cast level 5 Blur with extend spell
I gain the ability to cast Crowd control spells like HYPNOSIS and WEB...
I gain the ability to make UMD more powerfull with wizard scroll and wand mastery I
I gain the ability to make UMD more powerfull with wizard scroll and wand mastery 2
I gain bonus intelligence from wiz enhencments
I gain 2 metamagic feats

Crowd-Control spells are based on INT, and usually caster level (with heighten). Your crowd control spells will be terrible.

Splashing wizard is for buffing and buffing only...

PROS:
Jump spell
Exp Retreat (at lower levels)
Shield
Blur
Invisibility (nice for a rogue to shed aggro)
Haste
Displacement

Haste can be found in a potion. Displacement can only be found on high-end gear... Displacement (50% miss chance) makes a huge difference in combat... The main reason, in my mind, to splash 5 levels of wizard is for displacement.

The meta-magic feats are also nice, but not so much for a rogue...

Splashing wizard works better with a ranger, because you have more SP (ranger levels gets you SP too), and the free Extend meta-magic feat is useful for your ranger spells as well.

Thrudh
12-11-2009, 08:39 AM
like just recently how many of the buffs provided by my misguided build could be gained from clickies that are fairly common/easily obtained.

I should point out that getting displacement clickables is not easy until you reach high levels, and have grinded the Shroud 40 times (your first Shroud items will probably be weapons)...

The concept is sound... Self-caste displacement, haste, shield, blur, jump... these are very useful... For a casual player, it can be a fun build.... At some point though, you'll have gear that mimics everything you can do with your wizard levels, and you'll wonder why you took them...

Of course, then you can just use True Reincarnation and rebuild him...

Maybe I shouldn't be so negative... I had a lot of fun with 5 levels of wizard, you can too... and when you're tired of it, just reincarnate.

prowessss
12-11-2009, 04:46 PM
Imo, rogue/wizard is a great multiclass... but going 5 levels of wizard is kinda pointless... I would support you on a 7 wizard, tho!
Say, 12 rogue for t2 acrobat, 7 levels of wizard for stoneskin and firewall, and 1 level of fighter or 1 level of monk for feats?

Rydin_Dirtay
12-11-2009, 06:11 PM
Just not so good on the newest raids, where the devs BALANCED the bad guys around everyone having PrEs or capstones... They've overpowered several Tier III PrEs and they've added more and more magik items, and they've really killed any good reason for arcane/melee multi-classes.



Thrudh remember that thread a few months back about Ranger/Wiz's and so forth? It was 15/5 split discussion etc. maybe in the Elf forum or somewhere else.

Anyway, I have two of those type of Rgr/Wiz builds, so I'm gonna comment on 'em.

To the OP....I can say this much...having built two of them (version 1 and version 2)...Really, these are, in today's DDO, essentially flavor builds...that is, they feature things (blur, haste, displacement) that you can fairly easily get in-game anyway. So they are not a min-max build at all. They are for fun. For flavor. Build one if you want to, but keep in mind what Impaqt said about what you'd be giving up with 15 rogue vs. 20 rogue.

I have another rogue that is an acrobat. That's going pure. Why? I've built assasin rogues. I'm thinking about Third Tier Acro and just in case they add more capstones, which they've mentioned an interest in doing.

Haste clickies seem to be more common now than ever, maybe it's just me. Just the other night I found 2/haste clickie boots of speed in some middlin-level quest like Tempest Spine or Cav of Korromar.

And Thrudh. Yes, there is too much magic in DDO. The whole game could be respecc'ed in that aspect, if ya ask me. But that will never happen. Those +5 Threnalian blades? haha. How valuable are they today? When you grow a game, sometimes it grows haphazardly in terms of balance.

Rydin_Dirtay
12-11-2009, 06:24 PM
Imo, rogue/wizard is a great multiclass... but going 5 levels of wizard is kinda pointless... I would support you on a 7 wizard, tho!
Say, 12 rogue for t2 acrobat, 7 levels of wizard for stoneskin and firewall, and 1 level of fighter or 1 level of monk for feats?


Remember 13 rogue gives an additional rogue class feat...like CS or IE.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-11-2009, 06:54 PM
I know, I know!!! It's Turbines fault!



True... 5 levels of wizard is a fun way to get haste, and displacement (being able to perma-displace makes a huge difference)... And if you're new and grinding out the Shroud isn't in your gameplan, than 5 levels of wizard can be fun...

Impact makes a good point that rogue/wizard will be hurting on SP... Mine is a ranger/wizard so I get SP from the ranger side too... I have about 700 as well, and I rarely run out...



Yep, it IS fun... I feel bad for trying to talk the OP out of it... I had more fun with Hasenpfeffer than any other character... This kind of character is GREAT for PUGing 6-man quests...

Just not so good on the newest raids, where the devs BALANCED the bad guys around everyone having PrEs or capstones... They've overpowered several Tier III PrEs and they've added more and more magik items, and they've really killed any good reason for arcane/melee multi-classes.

And that's too bad.

Killed the Pit Fiend (Shroud) for the second time the other day.....with a bow! :)

I stubornly stick to playing Talonkage in all the hardest content.

But, yeah.....I know what you mean. And for those who do grind for the gear, they can get all the pluses, on a char without any of the weaknesses.

There's certainly many beefier chars out there than mine....I've never pretended he was an uber build.
Just fun, and my best equiped char. Plus I play him well. Win/win for me.

And despite all the talk on the furums, most players' chars are not that well built/equiped/ or played from my experiance.

I just hate it when people talk someone out of a fun and IMO still useful build.

But my second favorite char may be my Rog17. And if she had Talon's equipment it would be a real hard call.

A pure Rogue is a lot of fun too.

So if there is any doubt in the OP, building a pure Rog is also a very fun option IMO.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-11-2009, 07:03 PM
To make it simple :

CONS:
I lose sneak attack lvl 17 ( -1d6 damage )
I lose sneak attack lvl 19 ( -1d6 damage )
I lose trap sense level 18 ( this doesn't matters )
I lose 2 optional abilities lvl 16 and 19 ( this one hurts ,I don't like losing slippery mind and skill mastery )
I lose cheat death lvl 20 ( this doesn't matters )

PROS:
I gain the ability to cast level 5 Haste with extend spell
I gain the ability to cast level 5 Blur with extend spell
I gain the ability to cast Crowd control spells like HYPNOSIS and WEB... Which will be useless by L7 or so as they will start saving. You will be -8 on your DC compared to a full caster on that web, probabably more since their int will be higher
I gain the ability to make UMD more powerfull with wizard scroll and wand mastery I
I gain the ability to make UMD more powerfull with wizard scroll and wand mastery 2
I gain bonus intelligence from wiz enhencments
I gain 2 metamagic feats

You also left out that you will miss out on the T3 PrEs, which is the PrE level on rogues that is really worth having.

hydra_ex
12-11-2009, 07:04 PM
To make it simple :

CONS:
I lose sneak attack lvl 17 and 19( -2d6 damage )
I lose trap sense level 18 ( this doesn't matters )
I lose 2 optional abilities lvl 16 and 19 ( this one hurts ,I don't like losing slippery mind and skill mastery )
I lose cheat death lvl 20 ( this doesn't matters )
Possible t3 acrobat pre ( at the very best loss of a nice and noticeable penalty, at worst, a very crippling choice since acrobat 3 is incredible )

PROS:
I gain the ability to cast level 5 Haste with extend spell ( this doesn't matters )
I gain the ability to cast level 5 Blur with extend spell ( this doesn't matters )
I gain the ability to cast Crowd control spells like HYPNOSIS and WEB... ( this doesn't matters )
I gain the ability to make UMD more powerfull with wizard scroll and wand mastery I ( this doesn't matters )
I gain the ability to make UMD more powerfull with wizard scroll and wand mastery 2 ( this doesn't matters )
I gain bonus intelligence from wiz enhancments ( this matters little )
I gain 2 metamagic feats ( this doesn't matters )

Edited to make it correct.

level 5 haste - potions... and even if there were not potions, its not worth it.
level 5 blur - wands
Crowd Control - if fully specced casters don't expect to snag every monster in their CC, how can somebody whose DC is so low that it borders on useless?
UMD's power is not based on wand DC or wand damage. Even with those enhancements on a fully specced wizard with every enhancement, wand damage and spell DC is so low it does not matter (even using one's own mana, dealing meaningful damage on a caster in most of the endgame content is difficult)
The bonus to intelligence might be nice, but is it even worth spending those 2 APs on? After all, it only benefits two skills which are already going to suffice, and its only 1 point.
2 Metamagic feats are useless. Even if your haste were useful, then you would still only want 1 metamagic - extend. But since since the spells you cast are entirely useless, the metamagic feats are a null gain.

So, to wrap up:
loose - good stuff
gain - useless stuff

Talon_Moonshadow
12-11-2009, 07:05 PM
To make it simple :

CONS:
I lose sneak attack lvl 17 ( -1d6 damage )
I lose sneak attack lvl 19 ( -1d6 damage )
I lose trap sense level 18 ( this doesn't matters )
I lose 2 optional abilities lvl 16 and 19 ( this one hurts ,I don't like losing slippery mind and skill mastery )
I lose cheat death lvl 20 ( this doesn't matters )

PROS:
I gain the ability to cast level 5 Haste with extend spell
I gain the ability to cast level 5 Blur with extend spell
I gain the ability to cast Crowd control spells like HYPNOSIS and WEB...
I gain the ability to make UMD more powerfull with wizard scroll and wand mastery I
I gain the ability to make UMD more powerfull with wizard scroll and wand mastery 2
I gain bonus intelligence from wiz enhencments
I gain 2 metamagic feats

At higher lvls, it will be very dificult to get Hypno and Web to work for you. Only a max Int bild has any chance of using offensive spells with only Wiz5, above a certain level.
You would also need to take the spell focus feats and heaighten, and probably spell pen feats.
And even then, your offensive spells will have trouble landing.

I use all my wiz spells for buffs, which work fine at any lvl. (but can be dispelled almost automatically, and against some monsters those buffs don't matter)

I also have had trouble choosing my second meta-magic feat, and making it worthwhile.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-11-2009, 07:09 PM
Other Cons:
I think you also lose BAB because of the 5 wiz levels also.

For the Pros
- as was mentioned, your first two Pros you don't need to add wizard levels to do. You can already do them with UMD and/or pots.
- you are casting your spells at a level 5 wizard level. Not sure how effective your crowd control spells will be against mid-high end mobs.

This build is going to be incredibly difficult to play. I don't see a whole lot of success of you outdamaging mobs.

18/2 is probably much more playable.

yes you do lose some BaB. Which in my brief experiance with Epic quests, will certainly be missed there.

most other quests, it's not too big a deal. Only a few monsters have real high AC.(for now)

binnsr
12-11-2009, 10:04 PM
Killed the Pit Fiend (Shroud) for the second time the other day.....with a bow! :)

I totally read that wrong the first time. A bowl?? really?? :)

Lanceroy
12-12-2009, 12:39 AM
I have a semi-retired 12/5 ranger/wizard who used to be very useful, but I might as well build a ranger/monk instead and use clickables...

Get that character up to 20 and true reincarnate it in a ranger/monk :)

JagoKnight
12-12-2009, 01:54 AM
With all the negative comments on this build , I decided to use another one for my next multiclass rogue.
Close this topic , everything has been said.

lvl 15 rogue / lvl 5 wizard
NOT WORTH IT !

Stop reading here , it is not necessery.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-12-2009, 08:58 AM
I totally read that wrong the first time. A bowl?? really?? :)

Of course I got lucky. Both times where with manyshot active. And it just means I got in the last hit.

But since I've done it twice and have only about 16 Shroud runs on that char....I'd say it means people really underestimate ranged DPS....at least with manyshot.

But I was trying to use it as an example of how my very first 28pt tri-classes, splash Wiz build is still certainly competetive at end game.

That second kill was actually quite significant, because we almost wiped, clerics were OoM....I was out of healing and down to 8HP. We had one very, very sturdy tank, that our cleric was scrolls healing on like crazy while he solotanked the pit fiend.

The very fact that I was one of the few left alive, and continued to contribute without even taking damage from whirling blades, is very significant to the usefulness of my char IMO.
I had long since been off the triage list when the mana went away.

Apparently, I did take some more damage, as soon after completion I died when madstone rage wore off. (something I seldom use, since I want to be able to cast spells.....but I was out of SP at the end too, so I pulled out every trick I knew)

That was one of the most fun Shroud runs I've even been on. I got to use ever scrap of my resources....pull out every clickie even. Stayed alive forever with virtually no hp. And just happened to get manyshot back at the end and got the kill. :)

gimped char? Maybe....but certainly up to the challenge.

Thrudh
12-12-2009, 09:31 AM
So, to wrap up:
loose - good stuff
gain - useless stuff

Displacement alone is a huge benefit..

Throw in self-cast shield, blur, jump, haste (or rage)... it's a not a bad combo.

It's not awesome, but it's not "useless" either.

And it works a lot better on a ranger/wizard (IMHO)