PDA

View Full Version : AC - how much?



CountHenri
11-29-2009, 01:15 AM
G'day All,

Simple question : how much AC is needed when?

There is the logical need for more as Quest level increases and I assume Raids require more because they are designed to be harder.

Is there a list somewhere that gives an indication of just how much AC will actually help and when?

Thanks :)

Cedwin
11-29-2009, 01:24 AM
I'll go with some general values for decent AC at level.

-Level 7 to 10: 30-35
-Level 11 to 13: 35-45
-Level 14 to 16: 45-50
-Level 17 to 19: 50-60
-Level 20: 65+

AxeM
11-29-2009, 01:48 AM
There's a big jump in AC needed to matter when you hit gianthold at around lvl 12.easily need and AC in the mid 50s to be effective there.

For content like Tower getting your AC up above 80 seems to be quite helpful.

I hit 92AC in DQ2 epic and it wasn't much help there (the 75intim DC was a bit rough as well)

[Note I am looking at buffed, rather then unbuffed AC]

Quikster
11-29-2009, 01:53 AM
I'll go with some general values for decent AC at level.

-Level 7 to 10: 30-35
-Level 11 to 13: 35-45
-Level 14 to 16: 45-50
-Level 17 to 19: 50-60
-Level 20: 65+

These numbers are solid for a non-ac focused build or ok for an unbuffed ac build



There's a big jump in AC needed to matter when you hit gianthold at around lvl 12.easily need and AC in the mid 50s to be effective there.

For content like Tower getting your AC up above 80 seems to be quite helpful.

I hit 92AC in DQ2 epic and it wasn't much help there (the 75intim DC was a bit rough as well)

[Note I am looking at buffed, rather then unbuffed AC]


These numbers are more on par with high end ac builds when buffed, and yeah i think the intim check is 80ish (79 on your sheet) originally i read it in one of shades posts I think, and a guildie confirmed it as well. But understand OP elite DQ is currently the highest raid in the game, so not necessarily what you want to shoot for.

sirgog
11-29-2009, 02:38 AM
I'll go with some general values for decent AC at level.

-Level 7 to 10: 30-35
-Level 11 to 13: 35-45
-Level 14 to 16: 45-50
-Level 17 to 19: 50-60
-Level 20: 65+

I'd shoot higher than that at high level, or just accept that nearly every mob attack will hit you.

Against a foe with +63 To-Hit, an AC of 65 is no defense at all unless you debuff the foe. And at high level, the important foes have To-Hits of at least 63.

These are my estimates of To-Hit figures.


Stormreaver, Elite: 40 debuffed with Exhaustion and Curse
Arraetrikos, Normal: 47 debuffed, 50 without Waves of Exhaustion. (This does not scale up very much on hard/elite)
Suulomades, Normal: 60 debuffed. Scales up enormously on hard/elite.
Elite Orthon Defender (VoD), Normal: 40. Scales up significantly on hard/elite.
Horoth: His melee attacks are not a significant part of his damage here, but seem to be made with about a 80 To-Hit on normal.
Epic trash mobs: 70 for the 'grunts', 75+ for the tougher ones
Epic Lailat: 100 (this is a pure estimate; there have been no reports whatsoever on the forums of Lailat scoring a grazing hit on any players which indicates that she has a To-Hit score in the stratosphere)

Quikster
11-29-2009, 03:01 AM
I'd shoot higher than that at high level, or just accept that nearly every mob attack will hit you.

Against a foe with +63 To-Hit, an AC of 65 is no defense at all unless you debuff the foe. And at high level, the important foes have To-Hits of at least 63.

These are my estimates of To-Hit figures.


Stormreaver, Elite: 40 debuffed with Exhaustion and Curse
Arraetrikos, Normal: 47 debuffed, 50 without Waves of Exhaustion. (This does not scale up very much on hard/elite)
Suulomades, Normal: 60 debuffed. Scales up enormously on hard/elite. prolly closer to 50-55 on norm
Elite Orthon Defender (VoD), Normal: 40. Scales up significantly on hard/elite.
Horoth: His melee attacks are not a significant part of his damage here, but seem to be made with about a 80 To-Hit on normal.around 65-68ish
Epic trash mobs: 70 for the 'grunts', 75+ for the tougher ones
Epic Lailat: 100 (this is a pure estimate; there have been no reports whatsoever on the forums of Lailat scoring a grazing hit on any players which indicates that she has a To-Hit score in the stratosphere)


Just added a few i thought were a little off. Sully cant hit much when someone is standing around 71-72 on normal when shes debuffed. The general doesnt hit a whole lot at 80 ac either.

Once again, these numbers are mostly for raid main tanking duties, nobody is going to expect a pure dps'r to come close to these. If your not a main tank and youre walking around at 65 ac your doing well, provided you still have some decent hp and can dish out some hurt. If you have sacrificed everything to get up to a 65 and you dont have a lot of hope of going higher, your not in good shape.

Valezra
11-29-2009, 03:04 AM
I'll go with some general values for decent AC at level.

-Level 7 to 10: 30-35
-Level 11 to 13: 35-45
-Level 14 to 16: 45-50
-Level 17 to 19: 50-60
-Level 20: 65+

This looks approximately ok for melee classes that want to take little damage. If you are a DPS focused character (like a rogue for instance) you do not need AC even that high.

As someone said, in Gianthold there is a big leap in mob to-hit which means you may go from happily questing with little incoming damage to getting hit a lot.

Junts
11-29-2009, 03:45 AM
I think its safe to say Gog has never run with an actually useful ac tank in tower; even on hard, its quite possible to reduce so much melee damage that you can scroll heal the tank for the entire raid with minimal bar use.

Horoth's to-hit on hard was reduced in Patch 1, by around 4-5 points, actually.

Shade
11-29-2009, 04:19 AM
I think its safe to say Gog has never run with an actually useful ac tank in tower; even on hard, its quite possible to reduce so much melee damage that you can scroll heal the tank for the entire raid with minimal bar use.

Odd statement considering you can do that with a tank with zero AC, on elite. Infact I already have.

Besides there are no "useful" ac tanks in tower. They all sacrifices too much dps and just waste time when a dps character with no AC could do it faster.

tihocan
11-29-2009, 08:55 AM
Odd statement considering you can do that with a tank with zero AC, on elite. Infact I already have.
Must have been a lot of scroll users with you then :p

sly_1
11-29-2009, 11:30 AM
I think maybe a more important ? is, how much damage per blow are you going to receive?

Obtaining dr, from an "item intensiveness" point of view, is gonna be a lot easier than obtaining 80+ ac, as far as I can see. All the best ac items are ultra rare drops so either grind certain raids/instances for the key item pieces, or just go for mass dr, displacement, etc.

I'm a new player but from what I've learned in my time here my plan is to go for damage avoidance: debuff enemy str to reduce damage, use ironskin chant/shield block/ dr in any form, use displacement to avoid blows in the 1st place, etc.

Now once I get a character up to higher lvls so I can find unbound items and have enough gp to twink a higher ac build, then I'll change my strategy. Just seems like starting out trying to be an ac tank from day 1 seeing how gear dependent it is, that's just a tough way to get started imo.

tihocan
11-29-2009, 12:43 PM
Just seems like starting out trying to be an ac tank from day 1 seeing how gear dependent it is, that's just a tough way to get started imo.
Words of wisdom here.

Quikster
11-29-2009, 12:51 PM
I think maybe a more important ? is, how much damage per blow are you going to receive?

Obtaining dr, from an "item intensiveness" point of view, is gonna be a lot easier than obtaining 80+ ac, as far as I can see. All the best ac items are ultra rare drops so either grind certain raids/instances for the key item pieces, or just go for mass dr, displacement, etc.

I'm a new player but from what I've learned in my time here my plan is to go for damage avoidance: debuff enemy str to reduce damage, use ironskin chant/shield block/ dr in any form, use displacement to avoid blows in the 1st place, etc.

Now once I get a character up to higher lvls so I can find unbound items and have enough gp to twink a higher ac build, then I'll change my strategy. Just seems like starting out trying to be an ac tank from day 1 seeing how gear dependent it is, that's just a tough way to get started imo.

Yes ac gear is quite a grind.

Displacement is fine against trash, but for most raids it wont help on the bosses.

poonce
11-29-2009, 12:52 PM
When You get an Icy @ Lvl 14 your AC can Jump by 8 or so with just 6 AC Bracers rite?

Quikster
11-29-2009, 12:52 PM
Odd statement considering you can do that with a tank with zero AC, on elite. Infact I already have.

Besides there are no "useful" ac tanks in tower. They all sacrifices too much dps and just waste time when a dps character with no AC could do it faster.

Lol. No useful ac tanks in tower :) If it was up to shade he would make us all no ac barbs :P

sirgog
11-29-2009, 01:12 PM
I think its safe to say Gog has never run with an actually useful ac tank in tower; even on hard, its quite possible to reduce so much melee damage that you can scroll heal the tank for the entire raid with minimal bar use.

Horoth's to-hit on hard was reduced in Patch 1, by around 4-5 points, actually.

I've scrollhealed ToD, and the only thing that determines whether or not I need mana for healing is the Horoth tank's level of healing amp.

85AC, 0 healing amp - needed mana, they take damage faster than Heal scrolls can keep up with
50AC, 44% healing amp - only used mana after either a Disintegrate, or a failed concentration check on a scroll, or a distraction (like needing to heal someone else, or having to start tanking Suulo myself like happened on a recent run).

Horoth is almost like the Abbot - very little of his damage comes from melee, most is from the DoTs which AC is meaningless against.

tihocan
11-29-2009, 03:49 PM
Horoth is almost like the Abbot - very little of his damage comes from melee, most is from the DoTs which AC is meaningless against.
I've been cleric with both high AC and low AC tanks and it made a significant different in the amount of scrolls being needed.
The high AC probably had higher reflex saves though. Not sure if that makes a big difference here.

Xephyrath
11-29-2009, 09:09 PM
100 AC at level 20
95 at 19
90 at 18
85 at 17
80 at 16
75 at 15
70 at 14
65 at 13
60 at 12
55 at 11
50 at 10
45 at 9
40 at 8
35 at 7
30 at 6
25 at 5
20 at 4
15 at 3-1

have fun (this is only semi serious)

BTW at 100 AC you will not be hit by physical attacks ever. (muahahahahaahaha*cough**cough**cough*)

sephiroth1084
11-29-2009, 09:33 PM
Odd statement considering you can do that with a tank with zero AC, on elite. Infact I already have.

Besides there are no "useful" ac tanks in tower. They all sacrifices too much dps and just waste time when a dps character with no AC could do it faster.

Untrue. I haven't done it on your runs, obviously, but I have AC-tanked Horoth with a some DPS on his ass to make the fight go faster. Requires much less healing, and gets done in only slightly more time. Ends up with fewer resources used.


If there isn't a lot of DPS coming from more than one or two people, there's a chance of running out of Divine Righteousness partway through, which was a problem once (just me + high DPS rogue), but not too bad, and not a problem at all when there are more melees active.

Might try to get some of the items that grant extra turns as temporary items to extend the duration on that stuff, but with more people contributing DPS probably not an issue. On normal anyway.

Elite is a different story--haven't tanked yet, so can't report.

As to the OP's original question:

Before Gianthold, an AC in the high 30s will render to untouchable vs. almost everything. Most recent notable exception were the bugbears at the end of Ghola Fan on Hard (maybe elite?) which were hitting pretty hard until I went full-AC mode into the mid-40s.

40+ AC is what you really want once you hit Gianthold. Anything less might as well be 0, though 50ish will go further. Mid-40s will continue to be useful for a while, as the weaker trash in the Vale can still miss that (some trogs, etc..).

50+ AC in the Vale will help, while 65ish will make you basically untouchable in most cases.

Mid-70s is enough for Sulu on normal, and I believe 80 is enough for elite, but its been a while.

High 70s/low 80s for Tower of Despair if you're tanking Horoth, mid-70s for Judge, can't report on round 2 boss (I always go DPS with a 2-hander in there, even when tanking).