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Daryst
11-28-2009, 09:13 AM
I have this idea for a Kensei Acrobat, and would like a second opinion on this build. Any input is appreciated.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.12 BETA
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

staff
Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(7 Fighter \ 13 Rogue)
Hit Points: 252
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 16
Will: 9

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 20 22
Dexterity 16 17 20
Constitution 10 10 10
Intelligence 12 12 12
Wisdom 12 12 12
Charisma 8 8 8

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 7 22 28
Bluff -1 -1 0
Concentration 0 0 0
Diplomacy -1 -1 -1
Disable Device 5 23 23
Haggle -1 -1 -1
Heal 1 1 1
Hide 3 5 7
Intimidate 3 15 17
Jump 7 21 27
Listen 1 1 3
Move Silently 3 5 7
Open Lock 7 24 24
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 1 1 1
Search 5 21 21
Spot 5 21 21
Swim 3 6 6
Tumble 7 16 22
Use Magic Device 3 22 22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Agility
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Bravery
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Keen Ears
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Luck
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Size Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 5 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Balance II
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble II


Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I


Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+5)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+7)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge


Level 15 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Defensive Roll
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III


Level 17 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) II


Level 18 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense II
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II


Level 19 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost IV


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery II

Angelus_dead
11-28-2009, 09:19 AM
1. Fewer fighter levels = more rogue levels = more sneak attack = more damage.
2. GTWF = more attacks = more sneak attack = more damage.
3. Better weapons than staff = more crits = more damage.

Daryst
11-28-2009, 09:31 AM
1. Fewer fighter levels = more rogue levels = more sneak attack = more damage.
2. GTWF = more attacks = more sneak attack = more damage.
3. Better weapons than staff = more crits = more damage.

OK, outside of taking the entire concept out of the build, do you have any suggestions on the build as presented? I appreciate that GTWF will do more damage, and other weapons will do more damage, and more rogue levels will as well; however, not really the point of this character.

I was asking more about what I could do with the current build to make it better, I thought about taking it to a 13 rogue/6 fighter/1 monk, would this be a better direction?

Angelus_dead
11-28-2009, 09:45 AM
OK, outside of taking the entire concept out of the build, do you have any suggestions on the build as presented?
It is irrational to complain that someone is violating limitations which you never mentioned.

There is no reason for a character with the Rogue Acrobat specialty to be restricted to quarterstaves. Indeed, if you do not have 18 levels of Rogue then Acrobat is a seriously better specialty choice than Assassin, regardless of the number of weapons you use.

moorewr
11-28-2009, 10:15 AM
I have a 13r/6p/1m thief-acrobat staff-user project of my own..

I'm not sure that the bonuses from Kensei I are worth the fighter levels. Kensei II/III are much more interesting to me. Given this project I would probably go for 16 or 19 rogue levels.. the latter being both for maximum SA and a hedge against a future T-A III.

You could consider morphing this particular build to OTWF for khopesh or scimitar, go THF with greataxes, or if you stuck with quarterstaff you could add 1 level of monk (13r/6f/1m) to combine air stance with T-A II's staff alacrity.

A_D has pointed out in numerous other threads that the damage, crit range, and crit multiplier of the quarterstaff mean that even with alacrity you will not keep up with great axe or TWF styles. Rahl's Might levels the playing field, but that's a ML18 rare drop.

Twerpp
11-28-2009, 10:20 AM
Yeah, okay to stay with the spirit of your build. I'd dump 1 fighter level since it does nothing for you at 7, pick up a splash of something interesting, monk or barbarian. 14 rogue does nothing as well, Id go 6 fighter/13 Rogue/1 Barb. Dump power critical and bullheaded they are useless, and dump intimidate skill points. Rogues really have no business intimidating, you lose your sneak dice. Which with a q-staff its really your only source of dps.

Twerpp
11-28-2009, 10:22 AM
And Rahls Might to my knowledge doesnt have a good aligned version, so it will never level the playing field. Not even against trash.

Angelus_dead
11-28-2009, 10:22 AM
A_D has pointed out in numerous other threads that the damage, crit range, and crit multiplier of the quarterstaff mean that even with alacrity you will not keep up with great axe
It could match or exceed Greataxe. You're looking at +15% staff attack speed versus +10% critical power and +1d6 base damage from an axe. But it's not as if Greataxe would be the best two-hand choice anyway.


Rahl's Might levels the playing field, but that's a ML18 rare drop.
It's not "rare" as in hard to get, but the more important thing is that Rahl's Might doesn't beat important DRs.

moorewr
11-28-2009, 10:29 AM
True; the crits from Rahl's Might are much larger based on the higher base dmg and crit multiplier, but if you can't bypass DR, the non-crits will set you back.

Kistilan
11-28-2009, 10:32 AM
Nice beginning build. I have a similar build utilizing monk and rogue (7 monk, 13 rogue).

I completely agree that 13 rogue is the proper location. I see you skipped Improved Evasion to bank on your reflex saves, which makes me wonder if you shouldn't drop those strength points into dexterity? Are you intending to wear full-plate or something with this build instead? If so, then the attributes are fine.

Second issue -- your will saves. If there is any way to squeeze some useless enhancements (I skimmed but didn't see anything particular to absolutely remove) out and change them to halfling enhancements that add to your will and/or other saving throws, do it!

I see you took Bullheaded, but if you can compensate for this with enhancements then the better buy is Luck of Heroes to gain a +1 to all three saving throw types. You'll want this to make your evasion work better too with a +5 resistance and +6 dex item on -- of course this all pends on whether you're utilizing light armor or medium/heavy (in the latter, completely disregard).

I'm not a big fan of double-toughness and believe in twitchy characters such as acrobats and monks that you should be able to manuever away from the damage far easier than other characters. If you can find a better feat for the second toughness, I'd swop it (Sap, Stunning Blow?)

Now here's a big one -- that 7th level of fighter! I don't think it's doing much for you. The two classes that would be most beneficial to dip into are paladin (1 level) or ranger (1 level) so you make it to Kensei 1 and Armor Mastery (level 6 def gets you that second armor mastery -- IF you even need it). The access to ranger or paladin will grant you some better saves (ranger is synergistic if you're going for evasion-type armors with a +2 to reflex), the +1 to-hit and most importantly the access to healing wands which the fighter level won't do.

Finally, and this is just being frugal, that intimidate score isn't going to do anything at end-game. Put the points into Haggle where the money saved will be real every single time. If you were 12+ levels of fighter I'd say go for the intimidate if you were supposed to be tanking. However, with the way your charisma is set-up and the number of ranks you can force-feed down your throat, the intimidate isn't really cutting it. It would be better to even just buy cross-class ranks in haggle if you have to because a 40ish intimidate won't be enough when it counts near the end (this is with +15 gear, +6 cha item, GH, bard song, etc).

Overall it looks like a fun build! The only other option (and it would change your build drastically) is to consider warforged, tactician, and glancing blows. You could get a lot of damage out of that build as well.

PS: If you changed your alignment to a non-Lawful you could splash barbarian 1 level for the sprint boost/speed increase. If you were not wearing any armor you could splash 1 monk but you need that second level of monk for the air stance to really benefit (but you could gain extra ac from wisdom).

William_the_Bat
11-28-2009, 10:52 AM
If you post on the forums, you get a bunch of people who think every build should maximize DPS. I think every build should maximize fun for the player, and if that means beating on things with a quarterstaff, then let's make that work.

I will say monk is a better off class than fighter in this case. Not only do you get wind stance which stacks with acrobat, but if you take 6 levels of monk, you can get adept wind stance and (with enough wisdom) unbalancing strike, (adept of rain special attack) which renders targets vulnerable to sneak attacks among other things.

You'll also get a big bonus to AC, and since monks get more skill points than fighters, and have some class skills that are useful, you can probably lower your int and put the points into wisdom to qualify for adept of air and unbalancing strike. Fists of light and wholeness of body (monk 7) are pretty cool, too.

Incidentally, I'd be very tempted to make this character an elf instead of a halfling, taking your strength to 16 on a halfling is very expensive, and your other important attributes suffer. Admittedly, halflings get some cool abilities... but you may make up for it in being able to take more roguish skills, or having a higher wisdom, or just plain more constitution and more HP.

Angelus_dead
11-28-2009, 11:02 AM
If you post on the forums, you get a bunch of people who think every build should maximize DPS. I think every build should maximize fun for the player, and if that means beating on things with a quarterstaff, then let's make that work.
If that is his objective, he could say so.


I will say monk is a better off class than fighter in this case.
Having monk levels means that quarterstaff makes even less sense, because it provides you with Handwraps capability.

William_the_Bat
11-28-2009, 04:50 PM
Handwraps get better as a monk levels.. which means without a whole lot of monk levels, handwraps are not that exciting, though they can use TWF, which is apparently what many people here are pushing.

Unless I'm mistaken, the point of this thread was to beat on things with a quarterstaff, not point out all the myriad weapons that do more damage.

It's possible that my idea of throwing in monk 7 instead of fighter 6 is also irrelevant to the OP, since Kensai is specified, but I thought I'd try to make it work as well as possible.

There are actually situations in which a strength based THF beats out a TWF, for instance against elementals and other monsters with unbypassable DR, the extra strength damage really helps.

Truth is, while qstaff acrobats are not exactly common, they are not extinct, either. Some people are having fun with them.

Angelus_dead
11-28-2009, 04:58 PM
Handwraps get better as a monk levels.. which means without a whole lot of monk levels, handwraps are not that exciting
Not exciting? Well, compared to quarterstaff they not only have a cooler animation, but kill monsters better too.


Unless I'm mistaken, the point of this thread was to beat on things with a quarterstaff
What makes you think that? Note that the thread title "Kensei Acrobat" says nothing about quarterstaff.

It is entirely possible that the thread author does want to limit himself to quarterstaff for some reason, but he hasn't actually said that yet. And even if he does have that intention, it's still helpful to question why he wants to.

William_the_Bat
11-28-2009, 07:52 PM
You are of course correct, the fact that he posted THF and kensai: quarterstaff in his build may have just been a "first take", and not a "I want to beat on things with a quarterstaff".

Handwraps, of course, do not work with two handed fighting, but do work with two weapon fighting.

I understand the benefits of two weapon fighting, especially for rogues, I was simply under the impression that this was intended as a THF build. I try to be helpful, and I know that if someone suggested my own acrobat rogue put down the quarterstaff and respec for TWF, I'd feel they missed the point.

Daryst
11-28-2009, 10:39 PM
I appreciate all the input folks. It is indeed my intention to make a quarterstaff character, I really couldn't care about maxing DPS, this is a game, and should be fun to play imho.

William, I like your suggestion of monk, and was leaning that way myself, as wholeness of body is great for added soloing. I was trying to figure out the best fighter/rogue combo, and as you say it is a bit limiting, also, as quarterstaff is a Ki weapon, does it not take advantage of the full BAB if you are centered? Thought I read this somewhere.

Once again, I really appreciate all of the input.

William_the_Bat
11-29-2009, 12:21 AM
Yes, you'll get full BAB for your monk levels. Your rogue levels will not count more than their normal BAB.

Honestly, it sounds like a fun build to try.. I might have to make myself one (grin)

Dragavon
11-29-2009, 01:30 AM
If you post on the forums, you get a bunch of people who think every build should maximize DPS. I think every build should maximize fun for the player, and if that means beating on things with a quarterstaff, then let's make that work.

+1 rep :D