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Gunga
11-24-2009, 02:32 PM
While I was vacationing on Thelanis this summer, I rolled up a 28 pt pure Barbarian, Guanmagi. I'm about to hit 20 on my raids and I'm thinking about reincarnating.

What do you guys think of this?


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)
Guanmagi
Level 20 Neutral Warforged Male
(18 Barbarian \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 430 + 215 = 645 Standing / 745 Raged & Self Buffed
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 17 (27 / 43)
Reflex: 11 (19 / 31)
Will: 5 (13 / 28)
Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 27 (38 / 70)
Dexterity 12 14 (20)
Constitution 17 23 (34 / 54)
Intelligence 9 12 (12)
Wisdom 6 8 (14)
Charisma 11 12 (18)
Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 2
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 4
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 4
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 6
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 10
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 19 (28)
Bluff -1 0
Concentration 3 6
Diplomacy -1 0
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 9 (38)
Heal -2 -1
Hide 1 2
Intimidate 3 25 (54)
Jump 8 18
Listen -2 -1
Move Silently 1 2
Open Lock 5 6 (37)
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 1
Search -1 1
Spot -2 -1
Swim 4 8
Tumble 5 6
Use Magic Device 3 24 (41)

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I

Level 2 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Willpower I
Enhancement: Barbarian Intimidate I

Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I

Level 4 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I

Level 5 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Willpower II

Level 6 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Enhancement: Barbarian Item Defense I

Level 7 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I

Level 8 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II

Level 9 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Warforged Brute Fighting I
Enhancement: Warforged Brute Fighting II
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I

Level 10 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II

Level 11 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction I

Level 12 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II

Level 13 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I

Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost IV

Level 16 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage IV

Level 17 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack III
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II

Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II

Level 19 (Barbarian)

Level 20 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Intimidation
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude I

Hokonoso
11-24-2009, 03:05 PM
for a rogue splash with max umd chaotic good is not a good choice at all, true neutral all the way even without umd but with umd you can use every single weapon in the game without a penalty if you are true neutral. other than that, i dont pay too much attention to 2 rogue splashes as i dont find evasion to be necessary endgame and since you are raged all the time you can't use scrolls to heal yourself so the umd is only useful for equipping gear and i find i can do that even with just 11 ranks in umd and a 6 cha just using cha item, cha skills 3 item from first tier docent, gh and golden cartouche so that gets all weaopn types covered even without the rogue lvls. not to mention all the dps you lose by not going 20 barbarian...

but besides the alignment everything looks fine...

Gunga
11-24-2009, 04:06 PM
for a rogue splash with max umd chaotic good is not a good choice at all, true neutral all the way even without umd but with umd you can use every single weapon in the game without a penalty if you are true neutral.

What benefit do you get from going true neutral?



other than that, i dont pay too much attention to 2 rogue splashes as i dont find evasion to be necessary endgame and since you are raged all the time you can't use scrolls to heal yourself

I had 4 capped barbarians at 16. The barb I played the most was my rogue splash. I was taking much less damage than the melees without evasion, especially in monastery, shroud, etc. I found that no-fail reconstructs meant the difference between a raid only character, and one that could dominate all content.


so the umd is only useful for equipping gear and i find i can do that even with just 11 ranks in umd and a 6 cha just using cha item, cha skills 3 item from first tier docent, gh and golden cartouche so that gets all weaopn types covered even without the rogue lvls.

I would find the process of squeezing gear into my limited item slots just to hit a umd that would allow me to use a rr or good item to be too arduous for the benefit.



not to mention all the dps you lose by not going 20 barbarian...

...really?

maddmatt70
11-24-2009, 04:14 PM
I like the 2 rogue levels almost more for the umd then evasion. A guildie of mine soloes everything on his 18 barb 2 rogue human even before they made soloing so easy. The heal or reconstruct no fail scroll aspect is nice. Why not twf though? Since you need a decent dex anyway for the evasion you might as well take the plunge and go with twf evasion.

Individual
11-24-2009, 04:14 PM
What benefit do you get from going true neutral?

You take less damage from aligned spells and weapon effects, being neutral also allows use of Taint of Evil items, and being true neutral allows access to superior stability(hopefully on more items in the future). You have to ask yourself why any alignment over true neutral if you can UMD everything that would be normally CG required.


...really?

It really depends on what the other two barbarian PrEs are going to be, but yes, you will lose some DPS if you choose evasion over pure.

Thrudh
11-24-2009, 04:15 PM
so the umd is only useful for equipping gear and i find i can do that even with just 11 ranks in umd and a 6 cha just using cha item, cha skills 3 item from first tier docent, gh and golden cartouche so that gets all weaopn types covered even without the rogue lvls.

You equip the cartouche everytime you switch weapons?


not to mention all the dps you lose by not going 20 barbarian...

What +4 STR? That's +3 damage per hit when THF....

Not that big of a deal... Haste Boost from the Rogue levels is probably worth more than that (and of course, the very occasional 6.5 damage from sneak attack)

I agree that neutral is the way to go for a UMD character... As long as you can get your UMD above 24 or so without swapping out items, you don't need to be a good alignment

Thrudh
11-24-2009, 04:15 PM
I like the 2 rogue levels almost more for the umd then evasion. A guildie of mine soloes everything on his 18 barb 2 rogue human even before they made soloing so easy. The heal or reconstruct no fail scroll aspect is nice. Why not twf though? Since you need a decent dex anyway for the evasion you might as well take the plunge and go with twf evasion.

That's a good point...

Junts
11-24-2009, 04:17 PM
I do think there's a lot of synergy between rogue and twf; the capstone's glancing proc is a bigger deal for a thfer, the reflex save bonus for the dex helps the evasion a lot, and i would further point out that a thf barb gets more dps from litany than a bloodstone and so wants to be neutral to use it.

Gunga
11-24-2009, 04:24 PM
I like the 2 rogue levels almost more for the umd then evasion. A guildie of mine soloes everything on his 18 barb 2 rogue human even before they made soloing so easy. The heal or reconstruct no fail scroll aspect is nice. Why not twf though? Since you need a decent dex anyway for the evasion you might as well take the plunge and go with twf evasion.

This is a really good question. I have 1 MINII GA crafted, so there's not much to lose in there...the question is do I give up 63 HP to be able to hit something twice as often while Frenzied with khopeshes?


You take less damage from aligned spells and weapon effects, being neutral also allows use of Taint of Evil items, and being true neutral allows access to superior stability(hopefully on more items in the future). You have to ask yourself why any alignment over true neutral if you can UMD everything that would be normally CG required.

The only time I'm frustrated by not being able to use good aligned weapons is when I'm at a level that UMD couldn't be high enough anyway. The taint is meh...I'll have 100 shrouds with 2 or 3 essences in the bank next year.



It really depends on what the other two barbarian PrEs are going to be, but yes, you will lose some DPS if you choose evasion over pure.

+3 for pure class with everyhit vs +6.5 for 2 rogue when I don't have agro. /shrug

Gunga
11-24-2009, 04:26 PM
i would further point out that a thf barb gets more dps from litany than a bloodstone and so wants to be neutral to use it.

Exsqueeze me? 'splain yo sef.

Individual
11-24-2009, 05:02 PM
+3 for pure class with everyhit vs +6.5 for 2 rogue when I don't have agro. /shrug

Do you not expect your Frenzied Berserker to have agro often?

LeLoric
11-24-2009, 05:14 PM
Also the +3 for full barb is affected by crits whereas the sneak attack dmg isnt.

If going rogue Gunga I'd definitely go 2wf the synergies are just a lot cleaner

Khurse
11-24-2009, 05:26 PM
Probably a SQ, but how does 2 rogue levels get you no fail reconstructs?
I'm trying to crunch numbers and I don't see it being even close.

Junts
11-24-2009, 05:34 PM
Exsqueeze me? 'splain yo sef.

LotD can provide as much as +3 to your base damage, depending on not only whether it give you a str bracket but whether you're getting 2 or 1 damage for that bracket, as a thf character.

This damage applies to:

non-crits (at least 70% of your attack)
crits negated by fort (pretty much every raid boss runs 25-50% fort, except the jailor)
undead and constructs (see epic)

It further supplies additional to-hit bonus, and potentially more hit points and saves and umd, depending, again, whether you are getting brackets (but at least +1 to hit to go with the str bracket you surely design yourself to get with litany).

Even with a frenzied berserker and/or with a falchion, 3 damage on every swing adds up to a lot more than 6 damage only on critical hits. While your criticals will be smaller (a 6x crit getting 18 from litany instead of 36 from the bloodstone), it only takes 6 non-critical hits to make that up, and you only get those x6 crits 1 in every 10 swings.

Litany of the dead is a superior dps trinket for nearly all thf builds, and in fact its a better dps trinket for many twf builds as well.

You can also top that out by using a set of goggles like, say, Mentau's (seeker 4) and a sneak attack +4 item (epic bracers of the hunter, or the wretched twilight, depending on your taste and which other bonuses you want). This is superior dps for pretty much every weapon but the Khopesh (which gets more from the bloodstone than any other weapon) vs the bloodstone+tharnes set.

The epic bloodstone changes that math a bit, enough to favor it+tharnes for twf rapiers, but not enough to make the bloodstone superior for thf purposes.

The bloodstone's a great item, but it is not the optimal dps item for a thf character. Since you can also squeeze umd, reflex saves, and hit points out of the trinket (on top of +2 to hit and 2 or 3 to damage), it becomes even more obvious.

If you are good, though, you sacrifice most of the around the edges bonuses (taking -5 hp, -1 to hit and -1 to all saves and skills pretty much nullifies all the non dps/dc related benefits of litany ... though some good chars are -still- better with it).

To hit isn't a huge issue, but you're creating a character that is more survivable and effective so that it's not raid-only, and a big part of that (I'm guessing) involves elite and epic questing, especially as we get more. If we've learned anything from epic, its that acs are very high and that there's a lot of value in maxing to hit as far as you can, so you can afford to use your very enhacned power attack.

Hanam
11-24-2009, 05:35 PM
Probably a SQ, but how does 2 rogue levels get you no fail reconstructs?
I'm trying to crunch numbers and I don't see it being even close.

23 ranks
6 shroud cha skills item
4 GH
2 head of good fortune
3 cartouche
1 cha bonus (6 starting cha using a +6 ring to total 12)
------------------
39 UMD or no fail heal/reconstruct


It takes less than 2 seconds to switch the items so it's fairly handy.

Khurse
11-24-2009, 05:38 PM
23 ranks
6 shroud cha skills item
4 GH
2 head of good fortune
3 cartouche
1 cha bonus (6 starting cha using a +6 ring to total 12)
------------------
39 UMD or no fail heal/reconstruct


It takes less than 2 seconds to switch the items so it's fairly handy.


Doh!
I was taking the two rogue levels to early, and couldn't get enough points to get to 23 ranks.
(Or I maybe could have if I didn't use them on other stuff)
Kinda embarrassed now, so I'll say Thanks! and go back lurking.

Junts
11-24-2009, 05:39 PM
23 ranks
6 shroud cha skills item
4 GH
2 head of good fortune
3 cartouche
1 cha bonus (6 starting cha using a +6 ring to total 12)
------------------
39 UMD or no fail heal/reconstruct


It takes less than 2 seconds to switch the items so it's fairly handy.

a +2 tome gets you one more umd, and you could tweak it around easily to get another (put a single point in cha, use litany of the dead, for example) and then you dont even have to swap to the silly head to do it, too.

Gunga
11-24-2009, 06:25 PM
LotD can provide as much as +3 to your base damage, depending on not only whether it give you a str bracket but whether you're getting 2 or 1 damage for that bracket, as a thf character.

Right. But we're talking about this build, which could only make use of the LoD with a +5 Str tome. I'll go neutral because I think the case has been made, and +5 str tome with LoD may be better in the long term. I'm betting on an epic bloodstone and a +4 before the LoD and a +5. Time will tell.


a +2 tome gets you one more umd, and you could tweak it around easily to get another (put a single point in cha, use litany of the dead, for example) and then you dont even have to swap to the silly head to do it, too.

I honestly only put the cartuche on when I can't afford to miss...the 38 UMD works most of the time.

Junts
11-24-2009, 06:35 PM
Right. But we're talking about this build, which could only make use of the LoD with a +5 Str tome. I'll go neutral because I think the case has been made, and +5 str tome with LoD may be better in the long term. I'm betting on an epic bloodstone and a +4 before the LoD and a +5. Time will tell.



I honestly only put the cartuche on when I can't afford to miss...the 38 UMD works most of the time.

More realistically, you'd use litany with a +3 tome, because unless you -have- a +4 str tome in the bank, you're probably not getting it any time soon.

I mean, between all my chars I have run 60 towers and seen 3 +4 tomes, and the drop rate on 20ths is not particularly good.