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Schnarz
11-24-2009, 02:29 PM
While the "Templates for New Players" Thread was a real nice way of getting to know the basics and try some classes, i wanted to make a Template of my own. Its a dex-based, dual-wielding, Rapier-Kensei, 28-point, tomeless pure fighter. Since I have no experience whatsoever above ~6th lvl I would love to hear some suggestions on this one.

Edit: Forgot to include race. It's a Halfling =)

Edit: the entire build has been remade. The new build can be found a little further down on this page.

Stats (without any items)
lvl1 lvl20
Str 12 15
Dex 18 24
Con 14 14
Int 12 13
Wis 10 10
Cha 08 08


Feats

Combat Expertise
Dodge
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Mobility
Power Critical
Spring Attack
Superior Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Toughness
Two Weapon Defense
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons
Whirlwind Attack


Enhancements
(the number next to the Enhancement's lvl is the Character's lvl when the Enhancement is taken)

Fighter Attack Boost I, 1,
Fighter Critical Accuracy I, 1,
Fighter Toughness I, 1,
Fighter Haste Boost I, 2,
Halfling Cunning I, 2,
Fighter Strength I, 2,
Fighter Armor Mastery I, 3,
Halfling Dexterity I, 3,
Racial Toughness I, 3,
Fighter Attack Boost II, 4,
Fighter Critical Accuracy II, 4,
Fighter Flanking Mastery I, 5,
Fighter Toughness II, 5,
Fighter Kensei I, 6,
Kensei Rapier Mastery I, 7,
Fighter Critical Accuracy III, 7,
Fighter Armor Mastery II, 8,
Fighter Rapier Specialization I, 9,
Halfling Dexterity II, 10,
Fighter Armor Mastery III, 11,
Kensei Rapier Mastery II, 12,
Fighter Kensei II, 12,
Fighter Critical Accuracy IV, 13,
Racial Toughness II, 13,
Fighter Strength II, 14,
Halfling Cunning II, 15,
Fighter Rapier Specialization II, 16,
Fighter Flanking Mastery II, 17,
Fighter Attack Boost III, 18,
Kensei Rapier Mastery III, 18,
Fighter Kensei III, 18,
Fighter Strength III, 19,
Fighter Haste Boost II, 20,
Fighter Weapon Alacrity, 20



Any suggestions & comments are appreciated =)

mechgouki
11-24-2009, 02:45 PM
Perhaps you can show what your starting stats are?

Halflings are normally not so good choices for Fighter. They have high saves, but low str.

Schnarz
11-24-2009, 03:03 PM
I edited the original post to show both lvl1 and lvl20 stats.
lvl 1 stats are

Str 12
Dex 18
Con 14
Wis 12
Int 10
Cha 08

tihocan
11-24-2009, 03:16 PM
You can't get Combat Expertise with 12 base Int without a tome. Unless you are spending level up points in Int but that would be a mistake.
Whirlwind has bad rep but I don't have experience with it myself. If it works with twf then it may be worth it (compared to cleave which cleaves with only 1 weapon).
When you are posting a build, the important stuff to list is the starting stats, where you are spending your stat increases when leveling up, and which feat is taken at which levels.
It's good to give an idea of where you're spending your skill points too.
Enhancements are not worth detailing, just say for instance you're going Kensai.

Edit: you'll want Power Attack in your feats, really important to compensate for your low Str. But if you really refuse to get a tome it means you'll need 13 base Str.

Vanshilar
11-24-2009, 05:23 PM
But if you really refuse to get a tome it means you'll need 13 base Str.

I think it might be more that the OP doesn't want to rely on having to use a tome, rather than not using one if it comes along, since we don't necessarily have tomes lying around to twink our characters =P

Anyway, if you're going halfling, you can also consider the halfling dragonmark feats. They'll let you heal, so you can act as a spot healer, or one less person that the group's healer has to worry about.

tihocan
11-24-2009, 06:36 PM
I think it might be more that the OP doesn't want to rely on having to use a tome, rather than not using one if it comes along, since we don't necessarily have tomes lying around to twink our characters =P
+1 tomes are in the store now if one decides to use them on a build.

DasLurch
11-24-2009, 07:55 PM
Heya, I was looking over your build and only noticed a few changes I'd make. It looks like it will hold its own for the most part. The one big thing to reconsider from my perspective is to drop out the Whirlwind chain of feats. It's a vastly underpowered feat, and far too expensive in the pre-req department to be worth your while. That said, It would change your build some. If you were to drop that line, it would free up 2-3 feats for you. It would also give you back 2 more str, and 1 more level up point to use where you would. This would allow you to get your Str to an even # with the +6 stat item you'd have at endgame, and the +3 fighter enhancements. As far as the rest, it looks like you have the kensai part down well. I hope you enjoy playing the build.

hydra_ex
11-24-2009, 08:09 PM
On a pure fighter, there is almost no reason to be DEX based.

Your to-hit is lower.
Your damage is lower.

Your AC can be higher, but with the 15 base required for TWF, you'll be able to get it high enough.
Same goes for reflex save.

This is hard to pull off with a 28-pt though, and pretty much impossible without a tome.
16 STR
17 DEX
14 CON
9 INT
8 WIS
8 CHA


If you still insist on DEX based, which might be the only tomeless possibility, go 12/6/2 Fighter/Ranger/Monk.
Here, you can choose between elf (better to hit and damage) and halfling (better AC... marginally).

As for feats, Mobility, Spring Attack, Two weapon defense, Whirlwind Attack, Power Critical - all useless. Even dodge, to a certain extent.

Instead take Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack (drop INT by 1, raise STR by 1 if you do not want to use tomes), and all 3 dragonmarks, which, although they might not give great benefit, are still better then many of the feats which you listed.

rezo
11-24-2009, 08:12 PM
Looks good Schnarz.

tihocan
11-25-2009, 08:33 AM
On a pure fighter, there is almost no reason to be DEX based.
Oh, I tend to agree with this statement too. Though you'll still be ok w.r.t. DPS going Kensai, overall you'll do better being Str-based.

Schnarz
11-25-2009, 08:40 AM
Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I reworked the entire build, as it really seems unnecessary to go dex based on a Fighter. Its basically a whole new build, a STR based dwarf, dual-wielding dwarven Axes (going Kensei).

Edit: thx tihocan, stats changed, lvl 8 stat increase will be str instead of dex, initial stats will be 17STR 16DEX 15CON instead of 18STR 15DEX 14CON.

Stats lvl 1

STR 17
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 08
WIS 08
CHA 06


Stats lvl 20 (with enhancements, without items)

STR 24
DEX 17
CON 17
INT 08
WIS 08
CHA 06


Feats & Ability Increasements

lvl01: Toughness, Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
lvl02: Two Weapon Fighting
lvl03: Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
lvl04: Power Attack // DEX
lvl05: -
lvl06: Cleave, Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
lvl07: -
lvl08: Improved Two Weapon Fighting // STR
lvl09: Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
lvl10: Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
lvl11: -
lvl12: Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Luck of Heroes // STR
lvl13: -
lvl14: Greater Weapons Specialization: Slashing Weapons
lvl15: Two Weapon Defense
lvl16: Stunning Blow // STR
lvl17: -
lvl18: Iron Will, Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
lvl19: -
lvl20: Dodge // STR

Enhancements will be Fighter STR, dwarven CON, everything Kensei-related (dwarven Axe), dwarven Axe masteries, some Toughness.

tihocan
11-25-2009, 08:55 AM
Start with 16 Dex & 17 Str and either buy a +1 tome (AH or store), or waste a single level up increase in Dex.
Even in the latter case you still gain +1 build point you can spend e.g. in Wis for easier access to +1 will save at some point.

Edit: Oops, didn't notice Con was only 14, add +1 here instead of Wis.

Schnarz
11-25-2009, 09:36 AM
Thank you tihocan, stats in the build have been changed accordingly.

Aranticus
11-25-2009, 09:45 AM
Perhaps you can show what your starting stats are?

Halflings are normally not so good choices for Fighter. They have high saves, but low str.

the difference is 1 str mod. halfings as tank role fighters are not efficient but halfling can make excellent dps fighter. by your statement, it shows your inexperience

Aranticus
11-25-2009, 09:50 AM
Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I reworked the entire build, as it really seems unnecessary to go dex based on a Fighter. Its basically a whole new build, a STR based dwarf, dual-wielding dwarven Axes (going Kensei).

Edit: thx tihocan, stats changed, lvl 8 stat increase will be str instead of dex, initial stats will be 17STR 16DEX 15CON instead of 18STR 15DEX 14CON.

Stats lvl 1

STR 17
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 08
WIS 08
CHA 06


Stats lvl 20 (with enhancements, without items)

STR 24
DEX 17
CON 17
INT 08
WIS 08
CHA 06


Feats & Ability Increasements

lvl01: Toughness, Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
lvl02: Two Weapon Fighting
lvl03: Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
lvl04: Power Attack // DEX
lvl05: -
lvl06: Cleave, Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
lvl07: -
lvl08: Improved Two Weapon Fighting // DEX change this to str too, you only need sufficient dex to get gtwf feat
lvl09: Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
lvl10: Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
lvl11: -
lvl12: Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Great Cleave // STR ditch great cleave
lvl13: -
lvl14: Greater Weapons Specialization: Slashing Weapons
lvl15: Two Weapon Defense (OR Luck of Heroes, not sure yet)
lvl16: Improved Sunder // STR ditch imp sunder
lvl17: -
lvl18: Iron Will, Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
lvl19: -
lvl20: Stunning Blow // STR take stunning blow earlier

Enhancements will be Fighter STR, dwarven CON, everything Kensei-related (dwarven Axe), dwarven Axe masteries, some Toughness.

see red

Schnarz
11-25-2009, 09:53 AM
Thank you Aranticus, i will get right to it. Looks good =)
Edit:
lvl08 DEX Increase swapped for STR. I thought i already edited it, seems i somehow forgot it though.
lvl12 Great Cleave swapped for Luck of Heroes ==> Due to the lack of Willpower I suppose i will need something to compensate my low saves
lvl16 Improved Sunder swapped for Stunning Blow
lvl20 Stunning Blow swapped for Dodge