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Seventh
11-23-2009, 08:36 PM
I was thinking of rolling a caster focused on CC and charming/enchanting. At first I was considering a drow bard virtuoso, but I've been told nobody ever waits for you to use enthrall so that probably isn't the greatest idea. Now I'm thinking drow wizard. I'm looking for general advice on such a build, and I have a few specific questions:

1) How effective would such a build be? Will I be contributing to the group, or are blasters just more effective in all cases?

2) How effective is CC in the later levels?

3) Would I be better off as a sorc? As I understand it they are not very newbie friendly and are better off as blasters anyway.

4) Would it be possible to make a caster like this with no damaging spells at all? Because I love the idea of never having to deal with aggro.

5) I've heard good things about casters with hide/move silently. Do you need to multiclass so you can get full ranks to stealth? Because I'd rather have the capstone.

6) And BTW, how do I go about healing WF? Can I just pick up RLW (until I get reconstruct) and hit them with it when they need it? Should I carry wands of it instead of actually getting the spell?

Edit: Also, am I supposed to get all the ranks of those enhancements that lower the spellpoint costs of the various metamagic feats? That's a lot of AP.

Symar-FangofLloth
11-23-2009, 08:50 PM
Roll a Bard ;)

But CC won't work against bosses later on, and if you have no damaging spells, you won't be able to do much. Unless there's a lot of WF, you could be a healer.
It really depends on the quest and the group on if and how much CC is used.

Oh, and CC spells cause aggro, too.

sirgog
11-23-2009, 10:14 PM
I was thinking of rolling a caster focused on CC and charming/enchanting. At first I was considering a drow bard virtuoso, but I've been told nobody ever waits for you to use enthrall so that probably isn't the greatest idea. Now I'm thinking drow wizard. I'm looking for general advice on such a build, and I have a few specific questions:

1) How effective would such a build be? Will I be contributing to the group, or are blasters just more effective in all cases?

2) How effective is CC in the later levels?

3) Would I be better off as a sorc? As I understand it they are not very newbie friendly and are better off as blasters anyway.

4) Would it be possible to make a caster like this with no damaging spells at all? Because I love the idea of never having to deal with aggro.

5) I've heard good things about casters with hide/move silently. Do you need to multiclass so you can get full ranks to stealth? Because I'd rather have the capstone.

6) And BTW, how do I go about healing WF? Can I just pick up RLW (until I get reconstruct) and hit them with it when they need it? Should I carry wands of it instead of actually getting the spell?

Edit: Also, am I supposed to get all the ranks of those enhancements that lower the spellpoint costs of the various metamagic feats? That's a lot of AP.

1) You will be better, by far, than a blaster in the non-boss fights, and weaker, by far, than a blaster against bosses. Sadly, in most quests, that makes you weaker overall.
2) It's very effective if groups use it well. Charming mobs, for instance, is often flat-out better than killing them, and you get Mass Suggestion well before you get Wail of the Banshee. (At times killing is stronger than charming, particularly if you need to return to where you are later in the quest)
3) From levels 7-19 Sorcs are the best crowd controllers (due to more SP), at 20 Wizards outshine them due to having significantly higher spell save DCs (due to having more room for Spell Focus feats, plus the Wizard capstone, in Epic quests spell DCs need to be really high). Don't even consider a bard for pure crowd control, they have lower save DCs than a sorcerer due to a less effective Heighten Spell, and no Web.
4) No, as there are plenty of foes immune to crowd control, and they are often the hardest to defeat, plus CC spells do cause aggro.
5) Wizards can get respectable hide/move silently by training them as cross-class skills and using items to boost them further. Do not multiclass a wizard ever (unless you absolutely know what you are doing).
6) I personally consider Reconstruct as the second best level 6 spell for raiding on any caster and feel every sorc that does the harder raids (Tower of Despair, Vision of Destruction) should select it. (Scrolls do not heal for enough in emergencies). This is a minority opinion, and most Sorcs only take Reconstruct if they are WF themselves. At lower levels, I'd memorize one repair spell if you have a WF in the group, and use it to throw urgent in-combat heals, or to top them off when you are close to a shrine. If they want you to top them off between fights at other times, they can buy you a wand.

As for the metamagic enhancements - they are usually better than spending AP to increase your spellpoint pool, particularly the (very expensive) Heighten Spell ones.

sephiroth1084
11-23-2009, 10:31 PM
Wizard is a good way to go for CC, better, probably than a sorc. On the one hand you have more SP on a sorc, but on the other, you can select the right spells for a particular instance as a wizard, which is probably more powerful in a lot of cases early in the game. Late in the game, though, fewer spells are worth using, so that scale tips further in the sorc's direction, then at 20, when wizards gain +1 to their DCs, it tips back a little.

CC is very effective throughout the game, but less so in the level 19-20 content in Shavarath.

You will want to be dealing damage. A lot of CC does cause aggro, there are many places where CC is just not your best bet (many monsters are immune to a lot of CC, especially bosses), and CC+damage over time spells=win! :D Seriously, what do you think is better, throwing up a disco ball under which all the monsters dance and then waiting for your party to kill them, or throwing up that disco ball and watching the monsters burn and dance? Instant-kill spells fall somewhere in between, but are often very worth using.

You won't need to carry many damaging spells as you level, and CC will probably be a better use of your limited mana in most cases, but some damage will be good to have on occasion. Then you get Wall of Fire, and everything changes.

Using wands, and then scrolls, of repair and Reconstruct, respectively, will be sufficient for the entirety of your career unless you spend a lot of time healing WF, then you'd want to pick up Recon and maybe one or two versions of mass repari spells. That's the nice thing about being a wizard--you pick up what's necessary when it's necessary. I never run around with Recon prepared unless we have WF in the group and there is some desired expressed for me to heal them (such as if they are tanking in a raid, or we don't have a healer).

As for AP, there really isn't anythign you must take. I'd recommend a lot of ranks in the fire/cold enhancements (damage, then %, then crit damage in order of importance), spell penetration (later in the game), Wiz Int, and whatever else suits your fancy. On my wiz, I have 2 ranks each in Efficient Maximize, Empower and Heighten (this is probably the most important, as you will be saving the most mana here doing a lot of CC).

sirgog
11-23-2009, 11:14 PM
Wizard is a good way to go for CC, better, probably than a sorc. On the one hand you have more SP on a sorc, but on the other, you can select the right spells for a particular instance as a wizard, which is probably more powerful in a lot of cases early in the game. Late in the game, though, fewer spells are worth using, so that scale tips further in the sorc's direction, then at 20, when wizards gain +1 to their DCs, it tips back a little.

CC is very effective throughout the game, but less so in the level 19-20 content in Shavarath.


It's not just the +1 to save DCs, it's the extra 4 feats Wizards get - which usually means Greater Spell Focus Enchantment (2 feat cost) for an extra +2 save DC again on your Mass Suggestion on top of that.

I agree Shavarrath is hard going for CC specs, but once you get past it and out into running Epics, you'll be fine (and you will pull your weight in Shavarath Elite if you do nothing more than cast Haste, Displacement, Waves of Exhaustion and Otto's Irresistable Dance on mobs, Max-Empped Polar Ray or Force Missiles on bosses, (all no-save spells so far), and Trap the Soul or Finger of Death on Air Elementals.

Favis
11-24-2009, 07:10 AM
It's not just the +1 to save DCs, it's the extra 4 feats Wizards get
5 feats (lvl 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20. One more then in D&D 3.5)

Talon_Moonshadow
11-24-2009, 08:05 AM
Effective CC makes any dungeon easy.

Some dungeons, especially at the highests lvls, are very difficult to have effectice CC in. Super high saving throws on monsters being the main reason.

I have a Drow brd9 Vituoso. Sneaky. Uses CC spells, TWF, and buffs. Unfortunately she does not have max Cha, so things save against her spells more often than I would like. And Spell Resistant monster are a very big problem.
But her fascinate works good.

Who cares if the group waits? Haste, Expeditious Retreat, Invisibility.....run to the next fight before the group does.......sneak optional....fascinate.

Don't wait for the fight to be completely over. Zerge off to the next fight and repeat.

I also have a CC specced Enchanter Sorc.
She does have a few damage spells, but is weak against rednamed.
But makes any dungeon, up to lvl 16 anyway, a cake walk.

She has max cha, spell pen feats, enchantment focus feats.
And does not rely only on charming.
Hypno, Holds, Ottos, FtS.....Web, Fear.
Spamming those spells very fast...she can neuter an army in seconds.

But I'm finding the newest, hardest dungeons to be a challenge.
But you could always respect her feats and spell and enhancements to a nuker if you like later. (take stime and expensive, but by the time you would need to do this, you should have plenty of money)

Oh, a Wiz is the easiest choice actually. The capstone will give the highest save DC on your spells, and you can switch spells around, and also have more spell slots, to basically have CC and damage spells availabale when needed. And have enough spell feats to play nuker or CC roles as needed too.

Strakyn
11-24-2009, 12:04 PM
Im fairly new myself ( lvl 9, 1st charachter) and have the kind of build you are talking about. I agree with what the others have said.
Im not multiclassing.
And yeah it is possible to go all CC spells...i do...except i always have wall of fire (this spell is incredibly helpfull) and ill keep a low level missile spell, but i dont use it often.
CCing does cause agro, and sure things save against it...but i have spell after spell up to stun/dance/charm or whatever. That mainly deals with it or at least keeps them busy for the rest of the group to kill.
But for the most part thats my main spells....CC's, Buffs and wall of fire.
So far the biggest problem ive had is i never have enough mana. Always have to keep an eye on it. Most of my deaths so far are from spell casters, ill often get hit by a shaman or something and its almost instakill. Just slowly working to have better gear against that.

sephiroth1084
11-24-2009, 03:17 PM
It's not just the +1 to save DCs, it's the extra 4 feats Wizards get - which usually means Greater Spell Focus Enchantment (2 feat cost) for an extra +2 save DC again on your Mass Suggestion on top of that.



[quote=Favis;2579113]5 feats (lvl 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20. One more then in D&D 3.5)

Well, many wizards take Mental Toughness and Improved Mental Toughness, which sorcs have no need for, which kind of cuts those 5 feats down in comparison somewhat. One could pass them up, but 200+ SP is quite a bit. Don't get me wrong, the feats definitely have value, but they just aren't really 5 feats' worth of bonus vs. sorcs.

tihocan
11-24-2009, 03:43 PM
Well, many wizards take Mental Toughness and Improved Mental Toughness, which sorcs have no need for, which kind of cuts those 5 feats down in comparison somewhat.
And in my opinion this is a mistake unless you're a new/casual/lazy player. If you're not, then learn to manage your SPs, carry some mnemonics for when you need them, get SP-regen items, ... you won't need the mental toughness feats.

sephiroth1084
11-24-2009, 04:02 PM
And in my opinion this is a mistake unless you're a new/casual/lazy player. If you're not, then learn to manage your SPs, carry some mnemonics for when you need them, get SP-regen items, ... you won't need the mental toughness feats.
Fair enough. I've yet to make that leap...maybe I shall with my new caster, but I can't afford to respec feats on a level 20 at this point, so I won't find out whether it matters much to me or not right now.