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Shaikc
11-23-2009, 04:34 PM
Plain and simple, add the Improved Weapon Finesse feat. For those who don't know what that is, its a feat that allows one finessed weapon that is focused to use its users dexterity modifier for damage if the target is not immune to critical hits. It can be taken multiple times for different weapons.

TreknaQudane
11-23-2009, 04:38 PM
I'm pretty sure that's not core dnd, maybe from one of the OGL splat books, but definitely not core nor from WoTC

Jiipster
11-23-2009, 04:40 PM
No thanks. That'd take away almost all the reasons why you'd go STR-based (only reason left would be tactics feats). And would you still only get half the bonus to damage with off-hand weapons?

Shaikc
11-23-2009, 04:52 PM
No thanks. That'd take away almost all the reasons why you'd go STR-based (only reason left would be tactics feats). And would you still only get half the bonus to damage with off-hand weapons?

Not necessarily since its a criple to waste feats on this, WFinesse and WFocus:Light or Rap only to get no bonus again an enemy whos immune to crits or whos anatomy you are not familiar with.

and yea you will still only get half damage on off hand since this also doesnt have the epic feat superiortwf

Dylos_Moon
11-23-2009, 05:01 PM
Personally, I think giving monks the ability to use dex for their damage rolls on unarmed attacks would be overpowering, I mean a halfling monk can reach what, 40 dex easily, which would then apply to their to hit, AC, reflex save, and damage? Meanwhile strength would be used for...carrying capacity, yea that balances well.

Whats next, adding a feat that allows wizards to use their Int mod for HP (Mind Over Body background feat in NWN2)

TreknaQudane
11-23-2009, 05:07 PM
Whats next, adding a feat that allows wizards to use their Int mod for HP (Mind Over Body background feat in NWN2)

That was only for one level, not all levels.

hydra_ex
11-23-2009, 05:07 PM
Cool everyone, lets just all build DEX based 18/1/1 exploiter elves or halflings with rapiers and take FE:Contruct and Undead!

Now we have about the best damage in the game, the best ac in the game, and equal damage against non-crittable enmies as STR based characters.


Way to OP.

/deny.

Dylos_Moon
11-23-2009, 05:15 PM
That was only for one level, not all levels.
Which is what balanced it, however there is no way that Imp Weapon Finesse could only be applied at the first level :)

Cool everyone, lets just all build DEX based 18/1/1 exploiter halflings with khopeshes and take FE:Contruct and Undead!

Now we have the best damage in the game, by far, the best ac in the game, and equal damage against non-crittable enmies as STR based characters.


Way to OP.

/deny.

Khopeshes aren't Finesseable, the weapon would need to be light or a rapier, that means that rapiers and unarmed would benefit the most from the suggested feat. 2d10+Dex x2 (20 monk) and 1d8+Dex 18-20/x2 (greensteel rapier)

QuantumFX
11-23-2009, 05:15 PM
Cool everyone, lets just all build DEX based 18/1/1 exploiter halflings with khopeshes and take FE:Contruct and Undead!

Now we have the best damage in the game, by far, the best ac in the game, and equal damage against non-crittable enmies as STR based characters.


Way to OP.

/deny.

Khopeshes are not finesseable and would not gain the ability to be finessable with the OPs suggestion. If you don’t agree with the OP then argue against the actual argument rather than making stuff up.

OP: The feat, as written, would overpower specific DDO builds. Something like this would be better saved for PrE's. (Specifically, the Elegant strike ability from the Champion of Corellon Larethian PrC)

Redicular
11-23-2009, 05:15 PM
Personally, I think giving monks the ability to use dex for their damage rolls on unarmed attacks would be overpowering, I mean a halfling monk can reach what, 40 dex easily, which would then apply to their to hit, AC, reflex save, and damage? Meanwhile strength would be used for...carrying capacity, yea that balances well.

Whats next, adding a feat that allows wizards to use their Int mod for HP (Mind Over Body background feat in NWN2)

wow that really exists? dnd needs to change their motto to apple's iphone one:
"yep, there's a feat for that"


Cool everyone, lets just all build DEX based 18/1/1 exploiter halflings with khopeshes and take FE:Contruct and Undead!

Now we have the best damage in the game, by far, the best ac in the game, and equal damage against non-crittable enmies as STR based characters.


Way to OP.

/deny.

hey! it wouldn't work with khopeshes, those aren't finessable....

as much as i'd love this feat to be in game, I'm afraid my desire for it comes mainly because its broken overpowered. dex is enough of a god stat as is.

Angelus_dead
11-23-2009, 05:18 PM
Something along these lines could be acceptable, but it would need numerous limitations added, including being restricted to suboptimal weapon types and excluding the usage of other powerful combat feats.

Here is a suggestion which incorporates that
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170409

Shaikc
11-23-2009, 05:20 PM
Oh sorry btw this only works for piercing weapons and agianst naturally critable enemies whos anatomy you are familiar with (via knowlegde, is that even in this game?) FE does not allow this to work againt non-naturally critable enemies although you are obviously considered as knowing their anatomy. and (im not sure) but i think you have to take it twice for two of the same weapon, ill check Edit: Alright cant find this so i guess thats not right although it would probably work as a balancing factor in this game even goin so far as to say that you need to retake it for every attack you can make with your weapons for it to apply to each additional attack

rezo
11-23-2009, 05:25 PM
/sign, good idea. :D

Symar-FangofLloth
11-23-2009, 05:49 PM
I found it.
It's homebrew for sure..
It's here if anyone cares. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Weapon_Finesse_%28DnD_Feat%29

Shaikc
11-23-2009, 08:39 PM
Hmm, would this be less OP if say this feats was a triggerable skill which, when in use, incurred a penalty to hit equal to the targets and users bonus to AC from armor?

hydra_ex
11-23-2009, 08:42 PM
My bad, didn't read the OP well enough. Regardless, the argument still holds, as rapiers are still one of the best DPS weapons, just below Khopesh, DA and heavy pick. With elf enhc, it's still outrageous.

Again, I apologize, although I cannot emphasize how OP this would be. Especially for monks, as it would almost invalidate almost all other stances, as an air stance monk will deal incredible damage, and attack super fast. Fire stance might only be useful for gaining ki when low.

I decided that instead of adding a penalty (which I don't like), instead I restrict the weapon types to not include rapiers, and lesson the benefit, such that STR toons deal more damage, only because not all of the DEX mod should translate into damage. In addition, they loose DPS over characters with Power Attack, since IWF would be exclusive.

Perhaps like this it would be better:

Improved Weapon Finesse: [Weapon Type]
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +6, Weapon Focus: [Weapon Type], Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise
You are extremely adept at working with light weapons. While you have Combat Expertise active, you can apply three-quarters (75%) of your dexterity modifier to your damage modifier instead of your strength. This can only be applied to light weapons (therefore rapiers are excluded). This effect only works on targets susceptible to critical hits.

In addition, every class, exlcluding monk, would receive enhancements "Extra Finesse Damage" I and II, costing 2 and 4 APs respectively. If the character has the IWF feat, then they can increase their damange to 80% DEX modifier and then to 85% DEX modifier.

The reason for excluding monks is to prevent super air stance monks. Perhaps a lesser version, working only up to 80%, would be available for monks.

(Percentages are negotiable. Perhaps enhc increases up to 95%?)

Aranticus
11-23-2009, 08:49 PM
Plain and simple, add the Improved Weapon Finesse feat. For those who don't know what that is, its a feat that allows one finessed weapon that is focused to use its users dexterity modifier for damage if the target is not immune to critical hits. It can be taken multiple times for different weapons.

8 str toons suddenly became so hawt! :cool:

Shaikc
11-23-2009, 08:56 PM
Lol, there are so many ways to waste this out of OPness and still have a good new style of play, say x4 armor check pen on atk and dmg, req of certain number of points in tumble/concentraion, enhan point req, int req, x2,3,4 str pen to AC with str and con reduced by X when in use. name your choice.

Symar-FangofLloth
11-23-2009, 09:13 PM
Perhaps like this it would be better:


Well, why not just add in Deadly Defense instead? It's an official feat.

No pre-reqs.
When fighting Defensively or Using Combat Expertise, wearing no or light armor and not using a shield, and using a weapon to which Weapon Finesse applies, deal an extra 1d6 points of damage.
Selectable as Fighter bonus feat.

hydra_ex
11-23-2009, 09:16 PM
Well, why not just add in Deadly Defense instead? It's an official feat.

No pre-reqs.
When fighting Defensively or Using Combat Expertise, wearing no or light armor and not using a shield, and using a weapon to which Weapon Finesse applies, deal an extra 1d6 points of damage.
Selectable as Fighter bonus feat.

Because that feat is too weak?

IMO, the feat should be somewhere in the middle of that feat, and its straight up version.

Symar-FangofLloth
11-23-2009, 09:19 PM
Well sure it's weak for DDO.
Remove the shield penalty, and up it to 1d8 or 2d4 or something.

Shaikc
11-23-2009, 09:22 PM
And then i lose my thread...

hydra_ex
11-23-2009, 09:22 PM
Well sure it's weak for DDO.
Remove the shield penalty, and up it to 1d8 or 2d4 or something.

The problem with that as well is that you also get your STR mod, and, eventually, its going to be better than PA, or coming close, which would again upset the balance.

The way I think it should work is that it always deals less damage (as the % dex added is never 100), but it confers of the benefit of being able to improve AC.

Really, both ideas could work, but its a balancing act. Too powerful, and it invalidates everyone. Too weak, and its absolutely useless.

Shaikc
11-23-2009, 10:44 PM
Perhaps like this it would be better:

Improved Weapon Finesse: [Weapon Type]
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +6 or 6<+Dex Mod, Weapon Focus: [Weapon Type], Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise
You are extremely adept at working with light weapons. While you have Combat Expertise active, you can apply three-quarters (75%) of your dexterity modifier to your damage modifier instead of your strength. This can only be applied to light weapons (therefore rapiers are excluded). This effect only works on targets susceptible to critical hits.

In addition, every class, exlcluding monk, would receive enhancements "Extra Finesse Damage" I and II, costing 2 and 4 APs respectively. If the character has the IWF feat, then they can increase their damange to 80% DEX modifier and then to 85% DEX modifier.

The reason for excluding monks is to prevent super air stance monks. Perhaps a lesser version, working only up to 80%, would be available for monks.

(Percentages are negotiable. Perhaps enhc increases up to 95%?)

yea i kinda like this but why no rapiers? it doesnt make sense for them to use str in the first place(ever heard of renaissance) and dont try to give me anything saying rapiers have better dps because well they dont 1d6 just like everything else. and i'd like to add prereqs: dodge, moblity, and Extra Finesse Damage III,IV,V at 90% for 4points and 100% for 16. notice i modified bab req.

Aranticus
11-23-2009, 10:49 PM
yea i kinda like this but why no rapiers? it doesnt make sense for them to use str in the first place(ever heard of renaissance) and dont try to give me anything saying rapiers have better dps because well they dont 1d6 just like everything else. and i'd like to add prereqs: dodge, moblity, and Extra Finesse Damage III,IV,V at 90% for 8points, 95% for 8 and 100% for 16

rapiers do better dps than most other 1 handed weapons

Shaikc
11-23-2009, 11:05 PM
Another idea

Improved Weapon Finesse: [Weapon Type]
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +6, Weapon Focus: [Weapon Type], Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
You are extremely adept at working with light weapons.You can apply three-quarters (75%) of your dexterity modifier on a natural roll >= 10 + (str mod-2)[x2 if negative] to your damage modifier instead of your strength, otherwise just add your str mod-2. This can only be applied to light weapons and one-handed peircing weapons. This effect only works on targets susceptible to critical hits.

In addition, every class, exlcluding monk, would receive enhancements "Extra Finesse Damage" I, II, III, IV, and V costing 2, 4,6,8, and 8 APs respectively. If the character has the IWF feat, then they can increase their damange to 80% DEX modifier and then to 85%,90%,95%,100% DEX modifier.

The reason for excluding monks is to prevent super air stance monks. Perhaps a lesser version, working only up to 80%, would be available for monks.

Uska
11-23-2009, 11:05 PM
I think that was in one of those awful power gaming splat books that I never allowed.

Shaikc
11-23-2009, 11:06 PM
I think that was in one of those awful power gaming splat books that I never allowed.

Ouch rebuttal from the big man. So no compromises?
Btw i think this is main stream.

Aranticus
11-24-2009, 12:12 AM
Another idea

Improved Weapon Finesse: [Weapon Type]
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +6, Weapon Focus: [Weapon Type], Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
You are extremely adept at working with light weapons.You can apply three-quarters (75%) of your dexterity modifier on a natural roll >= 10 + (str mod-2)[x2 if negative] to your damage modifier instead of your strength, otherwise just add your str mod-2. This can only be applied to light weapons and one-handed peircing weapons. This effect only works on targets susceptible to critical hits.

In addition, every class, exlcluding monk, would receive enhancements "Extra Finesse Damage" I, II, III, IV, and V costing 2, 4,6,8, and 8 APs respectively. If the character has the IWF feat, then they can increase their damange to 80% DEX modifier and then to 85%,90%,95%,100% DEX modifier.

The reason for excluding monks is to prevent super air stance monks. Perhaps a lesser version, working only up to 80%, would be available for monks.

/not signed too

Uska
11-24-2009, 12:14 AM
Ouch rebuttal from the big man. So no compromises?
Btw i think this is main stream.

Not for 3.5 as far as I can remember have switched to HMB and A&8's for rpgs and mainly played 1st and 2nd ed before that. think maybe 4E which we are not, and no compromises system is fine as is.

Letrii
11-24-2009, 02:51 AM
A non-homebrew solution would be martial study, martial stance, and shadow blade. Costs 3 feats and lets you use Dex to damage for a selection of weapons, while in a stance. These are from the Book of Nine Swords.

toughguyjoe
11-24-2009, 03:10 AM
A non-homebrew solution would be martial study, martial stance, and shadow blade. Costs 3 feats and lets you use Dex to damage for a selection of weapons, while in a stance. These are from the Book of Nine Swords.


Yeah see. Book of Nine Swords was the beginning of the end. that book was practically 4E in 3.5's clothing.

Its usually house ruled out. Warblade=O.P. the other two classes are on the verge, or down right O.P. as well.

Letrii
11-24-2009, 03:16 AM
Overpowered to spend 3 feats to get Dex to damage? Have to be in a stance and only works with a limited selection of weapons. I will admit it is very nice for a monk though.

Shaikc
11-24-2009, 05:42 AM
Ok, one last try

Improved Weapon Finesse: [Weapon Type]
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +8, Weapon Focus: [Weapon Type], Greater Weapon Focus:[Weapon Type],Weapon Specialization:[Weapon Type], Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, TWF, ITWF
You are extremely adept at working with light weapons.You can apply half (50%) of your dexterity modifier on a natural hit-roll >= [10 - (str mod-2)[x2 if negative] + Targer Dex mod] to your damage modifier instead of your strength, otherwise just add your str mod-2. This can only be applied to light weapons and one-handed peircing weapons. This effect only works on targets susceptible to critical hits. This effect is only in use whilist two of the IWFed weapon are being wielded and GTWF is required for the off-hand to get the bonus if it is not lighter than the main hand.

Also whilist a character is using IWF s/he is concentrating so hard on scoring critical blows that they must suceed on a concentration check DC: Enemy AC +5 in order to fight defensively or use total defence

In addition, every class, exlcluding monk, would receive enhancements "Extra Finesse Damage" I, II, III, IV, and V costing 2, 4,8,16, and 16 APs respectively at lvls 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20. If the character has the IWF feat, then they can increase their damange to 50% DEX modifier and then to 60%,70%,85%,100% DEX modifier.

Letrii
11-24-2009, 06:24 AM
Only fighters get enough feats to qualify for that.

Shaikc
11-24-2009, 06:30 AM
I know. that was the idea.

AylinIsAwesome
11-24-2009, 06:33 AM
Only fighters get enough feats to qualify for that.

And maybe Rangers.


Seems way to overly complicated just add half your DEX mod to damage.

Though I'm fairly sure you're just kidding about that, making melee make a concentration check and all.

Letrii
11-24-2009, 06:37 AM
Would Dex to damage with select weapons be overpowered at cost of 3 feats I mentioned?

Shaikc
11-24-2009, 06:46 AM
And maybe Rangers.


Seems way to overly complicated just add half your DEX mod to damage.

Though I'm fairly sure you're just kidding about that, making melee make a concentration check and all.

yea most of those were a stab at everyone sayin this would be op even without GWF,WS,and TWF costs that would still be alot of feats needed
also i couldnt make it max since apparently its SO much easier to get high dex than high str

AylinIsAwesome
11-24-2009, 07:08 AM
yea most of those were a stab at everyone sayin this would be op even without GWF,WS,and TWF costs that would still be alot of feats needed
also i couldnt make it max since apparently its SO much easier to get high dex than high str



Yeah, totally, I mean it's not like STR and DEX cost the same points to get to the same levels, or anything crazy like that.



But seriously, yeah Halflings and Elves get +2 DEX with DEX enhancements, but so what?

If we take a 30 DEX, 8 STR Elf of Halfling, with Weapon Finesse, that's +10 to attack instead of -1. We add two more feats and at 50% DEX into damage, that's +5 damage. For the cost of 3 feats.

Please people, explain how this is so much more powerful than a 30 DEX, 14 STR rogue (since I like my rogues being able to carry stuff) taking Weapon Finesse and Power Attack.

Soulken
11-24-2009, 11:50 AM
Yeah, totally, I mean it's not like STR and DEX cost the same points to get to the same levels, or anything crazy like that.



But seriously, yeah Halflings and Elves get +2 DEX with DEX enhancements, but so what?

If we take a 30 DEX, 8 STR Elf of Halfling, with Weapon Finesse, that's +10 to attack instead of -1. We add two more feats and at 50% DEX into damage, that's +5 damage. For the cost of 3 feats.

Please people, explain how this is so much more powerful than a 30 DEX, 14 STR rogue (since I like my rogues being able to carry stuff) taking Weapon Finesse and Power Attack.

How about this you get to hit and damage from str the op is asking for the same for dex which gives with finesse to hit already plus ac, plus reflex save which if you have evasion could reduce some damage to zero str doesnt add to saves.

Redicular
11-24-2009, 12:48 PM
Overpowered to spend 3 feats to get Dex to damage? Have to be in a stance and only works with a limited selection of weapons. I will admit it is very nice for a monk though.

actually letrii your version would be useless for monks, monk finishing attacks are treated as spells, they kick you out of combat expertise mode.

as a feat only 1 of 2 outcomes is possible:

1) its overpowered due to rapiers, monks and the fact that dnd doesn't have a seperate agility stat making adding more bonuses to dex a bad idea.

2) the requirements are so steep that no one bothers to take it, i.e. monks and combat expertise/ 4+ pre-req feat suggestions

but I think there is a way to put the effect in game still.

there currently is a weapon prefix in game of "finesse" which much like the "mobile" prefix on armor gives you the feat if you have that item equipped. As it is, this prefix is considered completly useless since any class that wants weapon finesse already has it selected before items with the prefix can be worn(it seems to be about a level 6 prefix) and of course having the prefix locks you out of anything better(metalline, the various damage prefixes, the per-hit stat damagers etc)

you probably see where i'm going with this. how about we change the effect of the "finesse" prefix to improved finesse as stated in this thread. the coding is in the game in the form of the breeze staff (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Unlimited/Items/Weapons/Breeze.jpg). It's gets balanced by being a prefix(no holy unless you're a monk[rings]/good aligned/umd 20[for "of pure good"], no metalline at all, etc). and the need for those other prefixes prevents people from totally tanking str since they will at times need to use a str-to-damage weapon for DR purposes.

Dexxaan
11-24-2009, 12:59 PM
Plain and simple, add the Improved Weapon Finesse feat. For those who don't know what that is, its a feat that allows one finessed weapon that is focused to use its users dexterity modifier for damage if the target is not immune to critical hits. It can be taken multiple times for different weapons.

/overpowered and simply obliterates the reasons to have a STR based Fighter.... it`s bad enough with the Exploiter builds......


Ouch rebuttal from the big man. So no compromises?
Btw i think this is main stream.

Compromises can and should be reached when theres a reasonable position on the other side of the table.......which simply is not the case.


Moving on to a better subject....... How about that Festivult! :D

.

Angelus_dead
11-24-2009, 01:00 PM
monk special attack are treated as spells, they kick you out of combat expertise mode.
That is untrue.

Redicular
11-24-2009, 01:22 PM
That is untrue.

correct, FINISHERS break you out of it, not the standard ki strikes/stunning fist/quiverring palm. previous post edited.

still a big drawback when you need CE up to be able to hit the mob for any decent damage.

Letrii
11-24-2009, 11:51 PM
I don't even take combat expertise on my monk anyway.