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Corebreach
11-22-2009, 03:01 PM
Both of these suffer from significant gaps and errors in their coverage. I'd prefer if at least one of them were complete and current. The question before me is which one to focus on.

What are the (possibly hidden) pros and cons of updating the Compendium?

What are the (possibly hidden) pros and cons of updating ddowiki?

Lorien_the_First_One
11-22-2009, 03:03 PM
ddo wiki tends to be more useful and accurate. The possible exception is with very new things when the overworked wiki volunteers might not have caught up yet. Even then, for whatever reason the Turbine staff seem to like vague discriptions and the compendium is often of limited value.

hydra_ex
11-22-2009, 03:04 PM
Both of these suffer from significant gaps and errors in their coverage. I'd prefer if at least one of them were complete and current. The question before me is which one to focus on.

What are the (possibly hidden) pros and cons of updating the Compendium?

What are the (possibly hidden) pros and cons of updating ddowiki?

Compendium - sponsored by Turbine, has some user written guides on it, class UI is nice. You can sometimes spot leaks too.

Wiki - has more guides for mechanics, such as sp, glancing blows, etc, then the Compendium. Many better guides too. A little less user friendly though, and not sponsored by Turbine.

Mockduck
11-22-2009, 03:09 PM
If you are interested in helping out the community by updating a database, I'd go for the DDO Wiki. Your efforts will make a big difference!

Corebreach
11-22-2009, 04:44 PM
Your efforts will make a big difference!
1. Can you support that claim?

2. Will it hurt me more than it helps everyone else?

Mockduck
11-22-2009, 05:00 PM
Borror recently listed some visitation stats for the Wiki, which pretty much proves it as the biggest DDO player-created resource currently available.

I suppose you could spend a day writing up a page about why halflings are short, and, in the process, break your wrist. That would probably hurt you more than it would help others.

Borror0
11-22-2009, 05:21 PM
A little less user friendly though
Well, I'm working on changing that but there are things getting in my way. EnterWiki is a total hack, and I curse Elliott for that every day, which means that upgrading to new MediaWiki versions or changing the UI is a nightmare.

As for the OP's question:
1. Compendium: Lack of control on what goes on a page, pages auto-update when changes are made, inability to correct false information
2. DDOwiki: Established presence in the community, more content, more editors, ugly UI, having to put up with Borror0

Either way, it's safe to say that a lot of energy has to go in bringing either up to what they should be.

Corebreach
11-22-2009, 05:44 PM
Borror recently listed some visitation stats for the Wiki, which pretty much proves it as the biggest DDO player-created resource currently available.
"Biggest" is relative. It may very well contain more information than the Compendium yet still be regarded as virtually worthless by the vast majority of players.

Do you have a link to that post? I can't find it via forum search. How do the absolute numbers compare to, say, the stats on the City of Heroes wiki (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Special:Statistics)?

Mockduck
11-22-2009, 05:57 PM
"Biggest" is relative. It may very well contain more information than the Compendium yet still be regarded as virtually worthless by the vast majority of players.

Do you have a link to that post? I can't find it via forum search. How do the absolute numbers compare to, say, the stats on the City of Heroes wiki (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Special:Statistics)?

The DDO Wiki is considered "virtually worthless" by a "vast majority" of DDO players? That's just not true. If that's really your opinion of it, I'd say you should not spend any time updating the Wiki or the Compendium. Instead, create a new, even more uber compendium yourself. I'm now done with this thread.

Here's Borror's thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=202864

Oh, and I don't care what the CoX thread has. I find that City of Heroes information is not very helpful in playing DDO...

Turial
11-22-2009, 05:59 PM
Both of these suffer from significant gaps and errors in their coverage. I'd prefer if at least one of them were complete and current. The question before me is which one to focus on.

What are the (possibly hidden) pros and cons of updating the Compendium?

What are the (possibly hidden) pros and cons of updating ddowiki?

Compendium - its implementation has been slow and things tend to vanish when updates to the game occur.

DDO wiki - you get to meet and talk to additional players from the DDO community that may not frequent the forums as vocally as others.

Dealing with Borror0 is easy. Toss a poorly designed item at him and you can typically escaped unscathed.

tihocan
11-22-2009, 06:02 PM
I'd say that if one could be perfect, it would be ddowiki, because our control on the official compendium will always be more limited, and as a results there are problems we just can't fix by ourselves.

That being said, a complete and accurate official compendium would probably be best, since it's the ressource most easily accessed by the player base.

Shandi
11-22-2009, 06:04 PM
the ddowiki currently isn't online... at least for me I'm getting an Internal 500 error

so until that gets fixed we're stuck with the compendium

Corebreach
11-22-2009, 06:07 PM
The DDO Wiki is considered "virtually worthless" by a "vast majority" of DDO players?
I don't know. I'm asking. It would be naïve to assume blindly that most players think it's better than Cats and would see it again and again.


Here's Borror's thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=202864
Thank you.


Oh, and I don't care what the CoX thread has. I find that City of Heroes information is not very helpful in playing DDO...
The idea is to compare the number of visits to a game's wiki with the size of that same game's player base, to get a rough indication of what fraction of its players use it. It is not to compare the wikis' usages directly against each other.

Mockduck
11-22-2009, 06:10 PM
"Biggest" is relative. It may very well contain more information than the Compendium yet still be regarded as virtually worthless by the vast majority of players.

Do you have a link to that post? I can't find it via forum search. How do the absolute numbers compare to, say, the stats on the City of Heroes wiki (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Special:Statistics)?

Okay, one more comment before I'm done. I used the term "biggest", not him, but I have to think that it is. If I was to make some assumptions as to what the "biggest" player-created resources are for DDO, my top-of-the-head short list would be:

DDOWiki
Ron's Character Planner
Sanadil's Interactive DDO Game Guide
DDO Reports
DDOcast (yes, I'm being self-promotional, but I think it's probably true.)
Robi's Free to Play guide
(insert the stuff I forgot here)

I would be surprised if any of our sites other than the DDO Wiki gets 9,000+ hits per day.

cyanpill
11-22-2009, 06:12 PM
I was about to say F2p players cannot edit the Compendium, but I just checked and I can. But you still need to have a valid ddo account to post there, right? DDOwiki can be edited by any joe off the street, which is both a pro and a con.

One con to the comp, player edits are listed after the automated information. So it's more like they give the facts, you are just throwing in opinions... unless the there is something wrong with the game info.

DDOwiki has some really old pages that need to get update... but it's being worked on.

Borror0
11-22-2009, 06:19 PM
How do the absolute numbers compare to, say, the stats on the City of Heroes wiki (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Special:Statistics)?
That very information is available at http://ddowiki.com/page/Special:Statistics

EDIT: The Compendium's can be viewed at http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Special:Statistics

Here's Borror's thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=202864
That's a good source. Let me throw more up to date information, though.

We've had 311,115 visits, 2,022,760 page views and 85,016 visitors for October. We have a 24.73% bounce rate and the average time on site is 07:04.

I find that City of Heroes information is not very helpful in playing DDO...
Another good point to make is that City of Heroes has a good website (http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/11/21/good-web-site/), unlike DDO.

Dealing with Borror0 is easy. Toss a poorly designed item at him and you can typically escaped unscathed.
I laughed. A lot.

the ddowiki currently isn't online... at least for me I'm getting an Internal 500 error

so until that gets fixed we're stuck with the compendium
Should be fixed on Monday. Sorry for the inconvenience.

DDOwiki has some really old pages that need to get update... but it's being worked on.
Yes. Thank you both, Corebreach and cyanpill, for your great help. Yoko5000 and I were getting lonely.

Mockduck
11-22-2009, 06:19 PM
I don't know. I'm asking.

Ah, sorry. I misinterpereted your post as an opinion.

Samadhi
11-22-2009, 06:34 PM
Wiki for sure.

The compendium contains far, far too much vague responses (this enhancement increases ___) with no numbers given, making it pointless as far as actually getting information you need.

Shandi
11-22-2009, 06:45 PM
Should be fixed on Monday. Sorry for the inconvenience.



Hey Borror0 awesome :D

arrrcher
11-22-2009, 07:03 PM
for years I have relied on this site for info that CANNOT. POSSIBLY. be obtained as conveniently anywhere else.

compendium. please. it has always paled in comparison.

then I went to the wiki today. and I got the 505 error. ACK!

you really dont appreciate something til its gone.

heres to it coming back soon! TY BorrorO.

Mockduck
11-22-2009, 07:05 PM
for years I have relied on this site for info that CANNOT. POSSIBLY. be obtained as conveniently anywhere else.

compendium. please. it has always paled in comparison.

then I went there today. and I got the 505 error. OMG! OMG! OMG!

you really dont appreciate something til its gone.

heres to it coming back soon! TY BorrorO.

Too true... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUA0ai0XxRU)

Borror0
11-23-2009, 11:09 AM
Figured I would bump this thread since many people are following it.

The wiki is back up, but in slow motion for now. Don't be surprised if it takes a long time to load a page, for now.

Lorien_the_First_One
11-23-2009, 01:26 PM
"Biggest" is relative. It may very well contain more information than the Compendium yet still be regarded as virtually worthless by the vast majority of players.

If you spend any time in the forums you will see that when vet players answer questions it often includes a link to the wiki. The compendium is rarely referenced in such answer. By and large the wiki is the more useful and referenced site.


Okay, one more comment before I'm done. I used the term "biggest", not him, but I have to think that it is. If I was to make some assumptions as to what the "biggest" player-created resources are for DDO, my top-of-the-head short list would be:

DDOWiki
Ron's Character Planner
Sanadil's Interactive DDO Game Guide
DDO Reports
DDOcast (yes, I'm being self-promotional, but I think it's probably true.)
Robi's Free to Play guide
(insert the stuff I forgot here)

I would be surprised if any of our sites other than the DDO Wiki gets 9,000+ hits per day.

All great resources.

Borror0
11-23-2009, 02:13 PM
Personally, my vote is on the ddonline wiki (http://ddonline.wikia.com/wiki/Ddo_Wiki) with whooping 18 articles! (http://ddonline.wikia.com/wiki/Special:AllPages)

/facepalm

Kralgnax
11-23-2009, 03:50 PM
1. Can you support that claim?

Correctly, that would be your contribution could make a big difference, if you took the effort to add good data, etc. - which is fairly self-evident



2. Will it hurt me more than it helps everyone else?
How can it possibly hurt you at all? *boggle* As with any voluntary activity - contribute or don't, as you please

*Edit* - The real answer to the original question, of course, is to pick and chose between resources as you please. I suse the ddowiki a fair bit, and it's helped me quite a lot. I haven't found the compendium all that handy. YMMV

Borror0
11-23-2009, 03:55 PM
How can it possibly hurt you at all?
Wasting your time. When you work on any wiki, you come to ask yourself that question sooner or later.

Samiusbot
11-23-2009, 04:04 PM
I use the ddowiki as my first resource then I go to the forums. Then I talk to other players then I might look on the compendium. I say it not as a slam to the compendium, but as a complement to ddowiki. I like how it works, and how they have laid out their system. As a user I can quickly find want I want. I can send a n00b there and know that they will find what I sent them to find.

And as someone that that has seen wiki's die, and has given birth to a few the ddowiki is one of the best. It is not perfect by any means, but it is my first stop and my most visited page on my web browser. I can't think of a better complement, If you want to help, and you only can help one help the ddowiki.

Corebreach
11-23-2009, 08:37 PM
How can it possibly hurt you at all?
Step one: don't treat that question as rhetorical.
Step two: assume the world isn't full of sunshine and puppies.
Step three: think.

1. Waste of time.
2. Ridicule for picking "the wrong one" to work on.
3. Belligerence for helping players of below-average skill and keeping them in the game so their stupid can impact others rather than allowing their own frustration to self-select them out of the player base and make everyone happier on both sides.
4. Belligerence from players who feel revealing even basic game mechanics is a spoiler and ruins the fun of a game for everyone. Rare, but I've encountered it before.
5. Belligerence from players who have personal grudges against Turbine or Borror0. All companies have their haters, and I have been told the latter also exist. Real life doesn't work like DDO. Gaining favor with one faction can drop you with others without your knowing it until it's too late.
6. A constant stream of multiple undocumented gameplay changes every patch that renders reliable wiki accuracy a futile endeavor. Fortunately, this does not appear to be relevant to DDO.

None of these are guaranteed, mind you. I'm speculating. I don't necessarily expect any of them, let alone the whole list, and even if they happen they may not counterweigh the positives, but I recently had an eye-opening experience related to item #5 and I don't want to walk blindly into a bad situation.

IcarusIck
12-03-2009, 01:11 PM
Im a new player who has been reading ddowiki and learning from it, but it has been down for the past week :(

tihocan
12-03-2009, 01:26 PM
Im a new player who has been reading ddowiki and learning from it, but it has been down for the past week :(
Yep something broke, they need to wait a few days to replace the hardware.

atiaxi
12-03-2009, 02:58 PM
I'll also second the DDOWiki. I tend to use the wiki when it comes to maps (i.e. I'm trying to find the rare encounters in the Cerulean Hills rather than be the 10,000th person to ask in /advice), and it's great for that. Whereas the Compendium entry for the Cerulean hills... well, Take a look for yourself. (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Cerulean_Hills)

tfangel
12-03-2009, 04:38 PM
I just wish the ddowiki was up more, and had more info on quests. Even though i'm an 'old timer', i still get lost in them and not always sure what is where or what. More so when i'm soloing. The compendium has been less than useful for quests, at least the ones i've seen.

Other sites that also have some info, although not as sure about how up to date they are or accurate:

http://ddo.mmodb.com/quests/

and a video log of quests, although my biggest gripe on this one is that mostly it's a 20th level or so zerging it and not really showing what is where, but that could be due to the 10min limit on youtube videos.

http://caffeinated.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?ForumID=1380101&PostCount=41&GuildID=288042&TabID=2415997

The user written guides here in the forums are pretty good too, but i wish they were in one place like a wiki, so others could update them better after the creator of the thread goes away.

Maxelcat
12-03-2009, 05:47 PM
I used to use both...

But then the compendium turned into some weird search bar thing where i cant find anything.

so now its nothing but the DDOwiki. My whole guild uses it. followed by Google.

oberon131313
12-03-2009, 06:05 PM
but I recently had an eye-opening experience related to item #5 and I don't want to walk blindly into a bad situation.

well, a couple of things on this point. The people that hate Turbine and Borror0 out of hand are more or less few and far between. To me, the idea of not working on a wiki only because people might associate you with Borror0 is kind of silly, as I believe there are far more people that feel that Borror0 is a positive member of the community than hate him simply for who he is (or isn't).

Also, if you are worried that much about something being tracked back to you, create a username that won't be associated with you. ;)

RuneStriker
12-03-2009, 06:24 PM
My reference sources vary depending on the search, but it tends to follow this pattern:
1) DDOWiki
2) DDO Forums (first choice for build outlines)
3) Codemasters DDO forum
4) DDO Compendium

In the end it will be your call, but my vote would be to invest your time in helping fill in the missing information in the Wiki.

Given that the Compendium is direct from Turbine there is no reason it should not be the most up-to-date since the data can be taken directly from the game files, and yet it is not. There should be absolutely zero reason any player should have to make a comment to correct the information found in the Compendium. That alone tells me it is not a concern for Turbine and therefore will never be my primary source of information.

DDOWiki on the other hand has a surprisingly large amount of data for a fan-created resource and to be honest I find the layout (as limited as it can be) to be much easier to navigate and reference and easier on the eyes at the end of a long day.

Class listings would be a good example of this. I find it much easier to read the benefits of each class level as they are laid out in the Wiki than on the Compendium. This makes researching possible builds I see on the forums and comparing the benefits of the choices the builder made much easier.

I will hopefully have time soon to help contribute some of the missing information that will make the Wiki a top-notch resource for all players as I know it has been a huge help for me as a new player.

In fact, I'm really bummed that the wiki has been down recently as I've gotten several friends interested in the game and I need it's info to help answer all their questions on builds and character types... Let's hope Monday is a good day.

IcarusIck
12-17-2009, 10:56 PM
Wiki is still down :(
I've been reading through the forums, I'll have to check out Codemasters as I wasn't impressed with the info form the Compendium...

IcarusIck
01-05-2010, 12:24 AM
:(

Borror0
01-05-2010, 01:19 AM
Hopefully, it should be back up within a week. Ken has run into some... issues, but he's trying to work around it. :)

IcarusIck
01-09-2010, 05:49 PM
Yah, its back :D

Dragon.Star
01-09-2010, 06:16 PM
Both of these suffer from significant gaps and errors in their coverage. I'd prefer if at least one of them were complete and current. The question before me is which one to focus on.

What are the (possibly hidden) pros and cons of updating the Compendium?

What are the (possibly hidden) pros and cons of updating ddowiki?

While I will admit that the DDOWiki is way more popular because Turbine doesn't have their teeth in it. It does have a bit more info it. But to be honest I hardly ever visit it anymore, Most information can be found right here in the forums, Compendium or my own notes.

DDOWiki -


Pro: Controlled by the users and can be edited however Borro Wishes which is good and bad..
Con: Unfortunately, IMO it has a but ugly interface and I want to puke whenever I see the front page, It make me feel like I am reading some boring novel. Also the site can very much go down again at any time and be down for who knows how long as it is not owned by the right people.


Compendium-


Pro: much better looking interface, has content that can't be edited and shouldn't be except by chosen editors only.
Cons: There is misinformation in there and this mostly stems from the fact that The database pulls the from game servers which have stuff that get tested but never makes to the game. Also strictly run by Turbine. If only turbine would give some powers to certain people to moderate and keep info correct.

If for one have not worked on the DDO wiki in a long time because of how the Site is being hosted and the fact that any joe schmoe can come in wreck the work you have done.

I have been thinking of putting my full efforts into the compendium, especially since Tolero has been trying to set some stuff up for me there.

Hope that helps

Sebiale
01-09-2010, 08:02 PM
1. Can you support that claim?

2. Will it hurt me more than it helps everyone else?

Drop the big and he has a point.
Most wikis have a group of fanatics who supply the majority of stuff. But a large group of people who are continually crawling over it to ensure it's veracity, professionalism, and to add some more content helps.