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skarwolf
11-19-2009, 10:17 PM
2 Rogue 1 Fighter dwarf

str 14+2
dex 17+3
con 14+2
int 16+3
wis 8-1
cha 6-2

Enhancements so far - sneak attack training I, sneak attack accuracy, hide I, move silently I, dwarven axe dmg, rogue haste I & rogue dmg I.

Feats - Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse

I was using a +2 dwarf axe in one hand & +1 in the other. I also use an adamantium battle axe of backstabbing +2 & Miasma's Fang. I've tried using a +2 rapier & +2 shortsword (weapon finesse) ...

Yet when in combat I see MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS 10 MISS MISS MISS MISS 15.

Also I don't seem to land sneak attacks hardly ever. I'm curious if the miss rate is normal or did I screw something up ?

Xephyrath
11-19-2009, 10:49 PM
you are using weaponm finesse but are not using light weapons. so you're using your +2 instead of your +3, but besides that its not that big of a difference, also as a rogue your BAB is lower than fighter, when you start gaining more levels of fighter and switch to light weapons it will improve dramatically.

EDIT: also take fighter attack boost or something, especially if you're going kensei

Quintun
11-19-2009, 10:58 PM
2 Rogue 1 Fighter dwarf

str 14+2
dex 17+3
con 14+2
int 16+3
wis 8-1
cha 6-2

Enhancements so far - sneak attack training I, sneak attack accuracy, hide I, move silently I, dwarven axe dmg, rogue haste I & rogue dmg I.

Feats - Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse

I was using a +2 dwarf axe in one hand & +1 in the other. I also use an adamantium battle axe of backstabbing +2 & Miasma's Fang. I've tried using a +2 rapier & +2 shortsword (weapon finesse) ...

Yet when in combat I see MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS 10 MISS MISS MISS MISS 15.

Also I don't seem to land sneak attacks hardly ever. I'm curious if the miss rate is normal or did I screw something up ?

You need to use finessable weapons with weapon finesse. Not to mention a light offhand weapon. Your to hit must be negative for both hands with the dwarvens. The rapier shortsword is your best bet.

Uska
11-19-2009, 11:00 PM
Also are you moving when your fighting thats another -4

Quintun
11-19-2009, 11:02 PM
Also are you moving when your fighting thats another -4

So we have dual weilding dwarven axes while using weapon finesse and running for 500 Alex?

tihocan
11-19-2009, 11:40 PM
I've tried using a +2 rapier & +2 shortsword (weapon finesse)
That should work better than the DA combo.
Besides this, don't move around when fighting, and turn off defensive fighting if it's activated.
Then it's a matter of doing quests appropriate to your level, and using available buffs if you can afford (like pots of cat's grace, aid, heroism...).

For sneak attacks, you should get one every time you hit a monster that is not attacking you.

Ardkor
11-20-2009, 05:55 AM
Do this:

Open your (I)nventory screen.

Equip your weapons, and then make sure the "show details" tab at the bottom is expanded to show the weapon info.

Standing still you should see your main hand and off hand weapons equipped, and it will show the + to hit and the damage, for each weapon. Since you don't have a light weapon in your offhand, you will take a serious penalty to your hit rolls for both weapons. Since you are not using a Light Weapon (or Rapier) you will not be using your DEX bonus to hit, but your STR bonus.

Swap different weapons into each hand and compare your numbers. Your best combo will be a Rapier in your *main hand*, and a Shortsword in your *off hand*. Doing it the other way round won't help you because a Rapier is a "Weapon Finesse" weapon, but it is -not- a light weapon.

Now, still watching your numbers, simply run forward a few steps. Notice the numbers drop while moving, and then come back when you stop. This happens in combat, too, so learn to stand still while swinging (rotating in place doesn't affect your chance to hit). Combine short bursts of movement with carefully timed swings to get the most out of your chance to hit, while not getting flanked by the bad guys.

Now turn on Defensive Fighting, if you want to see how it works. notice your AC went up by 2 points, but your to hit numbers dropped by 2 points. Don't use DF, generally, unless you are trying to turtle up (go full defense) or run past something that might kill you if it hits.

If you want to use a weapon that is not light in your off hand, you'll want to pick up the Oversized Two Weapon Fighting feat (which will remove the extra -2 penalty for non-light weapons in the off hand). If you want to use your DEX bonus to hit, instead of your STR bonus to hit, you must use Rapiers and Light weapons, only.

Good luck!

ivar415
11-20-2009, 06:21 AM
Quite frankly forget about Finesse on a dwarf. When you happen upon Fred exchange the Finesse for Weapon Focus Slashing and pump all your attribute into strength. Make sure you get all dwarven axe enhancements and stay with a handaxe in your off weapon slot if you absolutely have to dual wield.

Dexterity 17 will allow you to get all TWF feats and strength will make the two dwarven waraxes make good damage eventually. Level 8ish.
For now stay with one axe and a board or a twohanded axe.

skarwolf
11-20-2009, 08:57 AM
Thanks for the input. I wasn't aware of the penalties for dual wielding. Since using the rapier / short sword miss rates aren't as bad.

Zenako
11-20-2009, 09:29 AM
Thanks for the input. I wasn't aware of the penalties for dual wielding. Since using the rapier / short sword miss rates aren't as bad.

Yup, the Rapier/Short Sword is an "approved" combination and gets the lower TWF penalty. Using Large/Heavy weapons incurs an additional penalty to hit over and above the normal TWF penalties.

At lower levels those penalties can be signficant.

MOb with AC 18 for example.

IF you have a combination of bonuses that gives you a +8 to hit on your base swing, you likely end up with swings at +8, +8 and +13. You hit the monster 55%, 55% and 80% of the time in a "round".

However incur a few of those penalties and end up at only +2 to hit, you end up wiht +2, +2 and +7, or hitting only 25%, 25% and 50% of the time.

You have about halved your expected damage you will do in that time (assuming the base weapon damage is the same).

At higher levels, it becomes less of an issue to have a -6 to hit.

Mob has an AC of 27

HOWEVER, your Base to hit is now something like +25. Meaning you get swings at +25, +25, +30, +35....almost always hitting except on 1's.

Toss in the -6 to hit, and you are now at +19, +19, +24 and +29. The "overkill" you used to have on your to hit bonus is trimmed off and some of your swings are completely unaffected in there chance to hit the monster.

Instead of four 95% swings, you now have a 65%, 65%, 90% and 95% chances to hit the mob.

When your TO Hit bonus is so high that you hit anyway, taking more penalties does not matter. That is why good fighters almost always leave POWER ATTACK on all the time. Extra Damage and no sigificant extra miss chance.

ON MOST MObs, however there are some HIGH AC mobs that do require changes to those tactics.

skarwolf
11-20-2009, 09:55 AM
With the rapier/short sword its +3 / +3 when I equipped the two dwarf axes it was 0 / -1 :P

Kralgnax
11-20-2009, 10:46 AM
Dual weilding at low levels is pretty dodgy, even without the other factors - your BAB is low enough that even a two point penalty is significant

Zenako
11-20-2009, 11:00 AM
One other thing that I overlooked.

The Enchantment level of the Weapon. (+1 thru +5)

even at higher levels, I like to make sure my Rogue (or any TWF) uses weapons with as high a base enchantment as they can. A MISS does ZERO Damage. So I want to find +5 weapons of XYZ whenever possible.

It can often be better to use a +3 plain weapon than a +1 of Flaming for example. Not everything takes damage from fire and the flaming weapon will miss more often too. Since the PLUS of the weapon is not only to hit but damage as well, doing a d10+3 damage more often can be better than doing a d10+1+D6 less often. The change is only 1.5 points expected (d6 vs the 2 point difference). Using a +4 weapon is often a no brainer, and a +5 weapon always over a +1 of elemental damage is a win. (With the rare exceptions of hitting a monster that is especially vulnerable.)

skarwolf
11-20-2009, 12:44 PM
Yeah I'm hitting more often but still not as much as I'd like to. Right now I'm using a +2 rapier & +2 shortsword.

Quintun
11-20-2009, 12:46 PM
Yeah I'm hitting more often but still not as much as I'd like to. Right now I'm using a +2 rapier & +2 shortsword.

You still get penalties even with that combo.

DoctorWhofan
11-20-2009, 12:49 PM
Yeah I'm hitting more often but still not as much as I'd like to. Right now I'm using a +2 rapier & +2 shortsword.

Well that's level and the fact you don't have ITWF yet. When you level your base attack bonus (BAB) will go up by class. Improved Two Weapon Fighting (ITWF) will lower the negatives again (by 2 I believe). To get the uber damage abilities of TWF means a little sacrifice now. Don't worry you'll get MUCH better.

Depravity
11-20-2009, 12:54 PM
If you want to milk the dwarf axe enhancements, there's always handaxes. Light and you can get the extra damage/hit bonuses from dwarf enhancements.
Not the best DPS by a long shot, but a handaxe does contend reasonably well vs a shortsword, and beats out daggers.

tihocan
11-20-2009, 12:55 PM
Improved Two Weapon Fighting (ITWF) will lower the negatives again (by 2 I believe).
No, ITWF does not lower the to-hit penalty.

DoctorWhofan
11-20-2009, 12:56 PM
No, ITWF does not lower the to-hit penalty.

THen what does it do?

Depravity
11-20-2009, 01:00 PM
THen what does it do?

ITWF and GTWF add attack hooks. Basic TWF reduces the inital -4/-4 (-6/-6 w/out light offhand) by two.

Currently, he should have 3(? silly combat changes) animations, one of which gets an extra attack on it. With ITWF there's another one added, and GTWF is another one...and I think one just shows up out of the blue. I'm still not sure of the exact number of attack hooks in all circumstances, but by the time you have GTWF, it's always two attacks per swing.

Tempest II and III reduce the penalties to nothing, iirc. Otherwise that -2/-2 is a given on a TWF build.

Emili
11-20-2009, 01:10 PM
A dwarf... using finesse? :confused: Use hand-axes or a rapier and an (dagger, shortsword or hand-axe) ... but! I will tell you this... You are BaB 1 in a 3+ level quest most likely and although you got a +1 or 2 here or there ... dual weilding is hurting at level... moving also... I - even when bringing up a TWF and feated early do not TWF til about level 5-6...


... and you cannot get sneak attacks if you are the one with AGRO at the time, while am sure others may be taking it away anm also sure the mob is dead by then. Therefore let the other melee get noticed first and always attack the mob from the back or sides as a rogue.

DoctorWhofan
11-20-2009, 01:42 PM
ITWF and GTWF add attack hooks. Basic TWF reduces the inital -4/-4 (-6/-6 w/out light offhand) by two.

Currently, he should have 3(? silly combat changes) animations, one of which gets an extra attack on it. With ITWF there's another one added, and GTWF is another one...and I think one just shows up out of the blue. I'm still not sure of the exact number of attack hooks in all circumstances, but by the time you have GTWF, it's always two attacks per swing.

Tempest II and III reduce the penalties to nothing, iirc. Otherwise that -2/-2 is a given on a TWF build.

Well that's what i meant, it reduces the penalty by 2. I know Tempest doesn't reduce anything. But when his attack bonus goes up and with ITWF, he should be hitting alot more. Tempest is icing. Really GOOD icing, but for the basics not needed for the explanition I was giving him.