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mechgouki
11-17-2009, 09:57 AM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=212649

Thanks to the guys for offering me helpful tips in my previous topic. I finally decided to test out a Drow Paladin first before I go cleric. I chose this, because the Drow has higher stats, particularly Charisma, needed to puff up the saves. And also because I haven't unlocked 32pts build yet.

Objective is defense, so high saves and decent HP, and still maintain physical attack prowess, while still capable of healing and supporting teammates (if not soloing).

It was really hard to decide distributing that stats, Str is the offense stat, Cha is a booster, and Wis is required for Paladin to use Spells. And Con, everyone needs that. So I need at least 6 pts in Str, Cha, Wis, and Con. That just leaves 4 pts. Not enough for Dex, an important stat as well.

The Drow gets 2 Dex, and Paladin gets 2 Cha from enhancements. So 5 more ability stats for level ups. The Drow Paladin also gets good accuracy advantages from Short Swords and some damage bonus as well. I intend to make use of that to make the Paladin a capable fighter with good accuracy as well, so I considered a 2 Weapon fighting build using Short Swords as well.

So, I have the following options.

Option 1)
Level 1:
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 16

The Dex eventually reach 16 from Enhancements. I put 1 pt from level up into dex, and 4 into str. This gives me 17 dex, enough to use Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Str will be at 18.

This gives me +4 damage and +4 accuracy. AC and Reflex saves will be +2.

Option 2)
Level 1:
Str 12
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 16

Everything is dumped into Dex. That gives me 23 end Result. I have to use Light or Mithril armor, and I have to get Weapon Finesse. This gives me +1 damage and +6 Accuracy. But the best part is I get AC and Reflex Saves +6. I lose the damage, and one feat. But I get more accuracy and Defensive stats.

Note: I'm not counting on the fact that I may be able to get tomes.

Which of these options should I pick? I already rolled out one using option 1. But I only just started, so I can reroll one for option 2.

Also regarding the 7 feats, I have decided on:
Toughness,
Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
Greater Two Weapon Fighting.

Other candidates include
Weapon Focus,
Improved Critical,
Dodge,
Power Attack,
Cleave.

Possibly Mobility + Spring Attack. I probably won't need Luck of Heroes or Iron Will. I can't remember the Critical Threat Range of Short Swords, but if it is 20 and not 19-20, I probably won't need Improved Critical. There's no wat

There is also the option of splashing 2 Fighter Levels for 2 Feats, but I'm not sure how viable this option is. Is the Capstone good? Dispelling dangerous buffs and enchantments require high Paladin Caster Levels but it is capped at specific amounts.

Based on this, how should I go about it? Please don't advise me to pump more than 6 points into Str. 28 points are not enough to go around as it is already.

tihocan
11-17-2009, 10:41 AM
Since you want good defense, it makes more sense to go the TWF route. Your first option won't work because enhancements cannot qualify you for the ITWF/GTWF dex 17 requirement.

You don't need such a high Wis unless you are going to splash monk (which could be an option on a dex-based build). There's no point going above 12 (since later with a +2 tome you get enough to cast L4 spells without items), and most min/maxers will actually use Wis as a dump stat.

You'll probably want to get into the Defender of Siberys enhancement line, so check what are the prereqs.

Plan to dual wield rapiers or rapier + shortsword, not just shortswords. Rapier > shortsword.

You want power attack and improved crit. You don't want mobility/spring attack.

mechgouki
11-17-2009, 12:28 PM
Since you want good defense, it makes more sense to go the TWF route. Your first option won't work because enhancements cannot qualify you for the ITWF/GTWF dex 17 requirement.

You don't need such a high Wis unless you are going to splash monk (which could be an option on a dex-based build). There's no point going above 12 (since later with a +2 tome you get enough to cast L4 spells without items), and most min/maxers will actually use Wis as a dump stat.

You'll probably want to get into the Defender of Siberys enhancement line, so check what are the prereqs.

Plan to dual wield rapiers or rapier + shortsword, not just shortswords. Rapier > shortsword.

You want power attack and improved crit. You don't want mobility/spring attack.

Thank you for telling me! I guess option 1 is out of the question, since I can't get GTWF with Enhancement boosted Dex. I have to reroll this one.

I'm not counting on being able to get tomes. The auction house sells for crazy prices. I'd rather stick with 14, and never have to worry about not being able to use Paladin Lv 4 spells.

I don't intend to splash monk for the simple reason I don't have it unlocked. But I'm considering the prospects of splashing fighter for 2 feats and tower shield, and the rogue for special skills and evasion.

For Defender of Siberys, doesn't it only work well with Shields? Can't do much with dual wield. People mostly choose Knight of Chalice, but that's only because of strong demons endgame, iirc.

I know the Rapier does more damage. But I can't pick it for 2 reasons. 1, I need Oversize 2 Weapon Fighting (I think). 2, Drow Paladin/cleric Vulkoor works with Shortsword. (Small bonus only though.)

So I guess the feats are decided.
Toughness,
Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Critical Slashing
Weapon Finesse

And the last one is either Dodge or Power Attack.

Whew, makes me wonder if 2 fighter levels are needed.

tihocan
11-17-2009, 12:44 PM
I'm not counting on being able to get tomes. The auction house sells for crazy prices. I'd rather stick with 14, and never have to worry about not being able to use Paladin Lv 4 spells.

I don't intend to splash monk for the simple reason I don't have it unlocked. But I'm considering the prospects of splashing fighter for 2 feats and tower shield, and the rogue for special skills and evasion.

For Defender of Siberys, doesn't it only work well with Shields? Can't do much with dual wield. People mostly choose Knight of Chalice, but that's only because of strong demons endgame, iirc.

I know the Rapier does more damage. But I can't pick it for 2 reasons. 1, I need Oversize 2 Weapon Fighting (I think). 2, Drow Paladin/cleric Vulkoor works with Shortsword. (Small bonus only though.)
You can just use a +wis item until you get a tome. The thing is, in the long term, 14 base wis is mostly a waste.

Defender of Siberys still works without a shield for some part, but it's true it's more geared towards the heavy armor/tower shield combo. But if you're serious about your defense, you may still need it.

You only need oversized twf if your off-hand weapon is non light. So rapier + shortsword combo does not require it.

The main thing in your build idea that makes me worry is you seem to be willing good AC, but you're not going to get it end-game while TWF. My suggestion would be to make a "hybrid" build that is either in defensive or offensive mode, with defensive=tower shield sword and board, with intimidate (fighter splash), and offensive=TWF. That way you can have very good defense and still be able to contribute somewhat to the offense. Otherwise you may end up lacking in both areas when trying to do them together.

mechgouki
11-17-2009, 01:01 PM
You can just use a +wis item until you get a tome. The thing is, in the long term, 14 base wis is mostly a waste.

Defender of Siberys still works without a shield for some part, but it's true it's more geared towards the heavy armor/tower shield combo. But if you're serious about your defense, you may still need it.

You only need oversized twf if your off-hand weapon is non light. So rapier + shortsword combo does not require it.

The main thing in your build idea that makes me worry is you seem to be willing good AC, but you're not going to get it end-game while TWF. My suggestion would be to make a "hybrid" build that is either in defensive or offensive mode, with defensive=tower shield sword and board, with intimidate (fighter splash), and offensive=TWF. That way you can have very good defense and still be able to contribute somewhat to the offense. Otherwise you may end up lacking in both areas when trying to do them together.

Yes, that's a very good suggestion, a Hybrid mode. Supports both Shield Defense mode and dual swords offense mode. I'll do that. I can probably do well with Bows too when needed. :D

Actually, I'm not really that geared towards heavy armor. My aim is a survivor, not a tank. Basically, able to survive as long as possible, able to solo if necessary, and have the least amount of weaknesses, including saves and AC. Intimidate is little use to me, as I'm not aiming to be a tank.

So what about the Feats?
Toughness,
Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Critical Slashing
Weapon Finesse

If I go pure, what should be the last one? Dodge or Power Attack? If I splash fighter, I can probably get both, plus one more feat.

tihocan
11-17-2009, 01:37 PM
Actually, I'm not really that geared towards heavy armor. My aim is a survivor, not a tank. Basically, able to survive as long as possible, able to solo if necessary, and have the least amount of weaknesses, including saves and AC. Intimidate is little use to me, as I'm not aiming to be a tank.
Ok, if you're soloing then hybrid is probably not such a good idea, because the defensive mode implies that someone else is taking care of the DPS ;)
The kind of build you're describing sounds similar in spirit to the so-called "Exploiter" build, ranger 18/monk 1/rogue 1. Except it's harder to be as effective with a paladin. And it means you want evasion because it's a big part of being a "survivor".

Kinda sucks that you can't splash monk because it's really what makes a big difference thanks to the AC boost. Here's a suggestion that may work out: paladin 16/fighter 2/rogue 2. Going TWF finesse-based (but still take power attack because you'll want it when DPS is what matters). The UMD in particular will let you UMD the high level shield wands so you don't have to keep spamming clickies and disabling combat expertise in important fights. You'll enjoy heal scrolls too. Feats would be (not in order):
- power attack
- TWF / ITWF / GTWF
- weapon finesse
- improved crit: pierce
- toughness
- combat expertise
- dodge

Suggested stats:
Str 12 (+1 tome for PA)
Dex 16 (level-up go here)
Con 12
Int 12 (+1 tome for CE)
Wis 10
Cha 16

If you really don't want to rely on tomes, take down Wis/Cha for extra points in Str/Int.
Your AC won't be stellar but you should be able to get it into the meaningful range with appropriate gear.

mechgouki
11-18-2009, 03:09 AM
Thanks, Tiho, but I don't think that build you suggested is suitable for the style I'm looking for. I can't sacrifice anything for Int, so no Combat Expertise. My idea of Survivor is low weaknesses (decent saves and AC, if not super high), able to heal self, and still be able to dish out damage (preferably in Melee, because you can run out of SP if using spells to attack). I cannot burn any more points into STR nor can I remove CHA. Cha helps with all my saves, it's very important.

The Rogue and the Fighter Splashes sound really good. But I still haven't decided.

I pick 2 levels of Rogue, I get Evasion, lock pick and disable device (which will thin out my Skill Points even more), and minor Sneak Attack bonuses. I pick 2 levels Fighter, I get 2 Feats, and Tower Shield Proficiency. I can only pick one. I sacrifice Divine Sacrifice and Redemption 3 as well as the Capstone.

Ugh, guess I'll have to decide later. Does Paladin Divine Might require 20 Cha or just 18 with 2 Paladin Cha Enhancements? Is Divine Might useful?

I think this is to be the 7 feats

Toughness,
Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Critical Slashing
Weapon Finesse
Dodge

Thanks so much for your help Tiho. I'm gonna try pure and see how it works out first.

tihocan
11-18-2009, 11:50 AM
Ok, gl :)
Divine Might is based on base stat + tomes, enhancements won't work.
Be aware that without Combat Expertise you can't really hope to have a meaningful AC with TWF with this kind of build. Even with it you'd still be most likely on the low side of the useful AC range. Going tower shield is a possible idea but then you can't really splash rogue (because won't work well with light armor), and your DPS will also suffer a lot, which will put you in trouble when soloing, because you may have a hard time killing stuff fast enough.
But I guess best is you experience all that by yourself and see how it works out :)

mechgouki
11-19-2009, 05:43 AM
I just like to mention that I made a mistake. Short Sword and Rapier are both Piercing. I thought the SS was slashing. So I will be picking improved critical: piercing.

Paladins also get 3 to Charisma for enhancements, not 2, my mistake.

mechgouki
11-21-2009, 01:00 PM
This build is a complete failure. The main design problem, was that I mistook BAB for Damage, instead of Accuracy, which is what it really is. Because of that, the setup is all wrong, so I have to scrap and reroll again.

Drow Paladin Lv 1 Stats
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 16

I am not counting on being able to get the right tomes, so Wisdom have to stay 14 to use all Spells. Dexterity is the stat absolutely required for TWF. Charisma is the most important defense stat, affecting all saves. Strength is the offense stat. I need 6 points in all these important stats, plus some points in Con as well to increase the HP. Con is essential, but not not as important because the Paladin gets 10 HP/level, as well as the Paladin Toughness Enhancements.

For Enhancements, the Drow gets 2 Dex, and Paladin gets 3 Cha bonus. For level ups, 1 point will go into Dex, to make it 17, eligible for Greater Two Handed Fighting. The remaining 4 points will go into Str.

EDIT: The prestige path taken will be the Defender of Siberys or Knight of Chalice. The Defender of Siberys will require splashing of at least 1 level of Fighter.

The 7 feats chosen:
Toughness,
Power Attack,
Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Critical Piercing,
Dodge

Primary Weapons are Short Sword and Rapier.

Objective of this build is survivability. Requirements, high saves, decent HP and AC, able to self Heal, and combat efficient. Doesn't have to be the absolute best attacker or tank or healer, but he must have all these requirements.

I need feedback on this redesign. Is it good? If it is, I can start rerolling right now.

tihocan
11-21-2009, 02:36 PM
This build is a complete failure. The main design problem, was that I mistook BAB for Damage, instead of Accuracy, which is what it really is. Because of that, the setup is all wrong, so I have to scrap and reroll again.

Drow Paladin Lv 1 Stats
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 16

I am not counting on being able to get the right tomes, so Wisdom have to stay 14 to use all Spells. Dexterity is the stat absolutely required for TWF. Charisma is the most important defense stat, affecting all saves. Strength is the offense stat. I need 6 points in all these important stats, plus some points in Con as well to increase the HP. Con is essential, but not not as important because the Paladin gets 10 HP/level, as well as the Paladin Toughness Enhancements.

For Enhancements, the Drow gets 2 Dex, and Paladin gets 3 Cha bonus. For level ups, 1 point will go into Dex, to make it 17, eligible for Greater Two Handed Fighting. The remaining 4 points will go into Str. The prestige path taken will be the Defender of Siberys.

The 7 feats chosen:
Toughness,
Power Attack,
Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Critical Piercing,
Dodge

Primary Weapons are Short Sword and Rapier.

Objective of this build is survivability. Requirements, high saves, decent HP and AC, able to self Heal, and combat efficient. Doesn't have to be the absolute best attacker or tank or healer, but he must have all these requirements.

I need feedback on this redesign. Is it good? If it is, I can start rerolling right now.
It seems very close to what you rolled before, unless I'm mistaken (option 2 in your OP, which is what I thought you went for). I don't understand why the fact BAB is tied to your to-hit made it a total failure.

10 Con is pretty weak. You'd better take down Wis to 10 and Con to 12 because these points in Wis are going to be wasted (just use a wisdom item). At least take down Wis to 12 even if you are planning to not use a wis item in the long term (too bad because concordant opposition would be great on this build), because at some point you'll get a +2 wis tome if you play this char for a while.

Edit: trade dodge for weapon finesse
Re-edit: oh, read more closely, you're going for str-based... 18 base str at L20 is really weak though, your to-hit will suffer. Since you're going for finesse weapons anyway, you'd better take finesse, since you can end with 23 "base" Dex at L20 (16 base + 5 level up + 2 enhancement).

mechgouki
11-21-2009, 11:09 PM
The main problem is what I mistook his combat prowess dependent stat. Because of my misunderstanding of what BAB does, I believed that Accuracy is indispensable, while Damage is expandable, while it should have been the reverse. In other words, the reason why it is a failure is because I will be hitting fast and accurate, but NOT hitting hard.

So, instead of taking one Weapon Finesse feat to make it +1 damage and +6 Accuracy. I changed that to +4 damage and +4 accuracy.

Con is now the expandable stat. 2 points only give 20 HP at Lv 20. Paladin gets natural HP very high.

I understand that 18 Str is not very much, and he probably will be struggling in early stages, because that's when accuracy matters.

This also eliminates my problem of having Dex too high such that good armor cannot support it.

TechNoFear
11-22-2009, 12:14 AM
Paladins can dump Wis, 8-10 being the optimum IMO. Items will give enough Wis and SP to cast spells and are easy to aquire after 13th.

Without tomes, if Dex based I would go something like;

Str 13
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 9 (with +5 Wis item will be able to cast all spells)
Cha 16

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


I prefer Str based as I think the feats work out better.

More like;
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 8 (more difficult to cast until 15th unless you get a +1 tome)
Cha 16

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell

mechgouki
11-22-2009, 12:41 AM
Good suggestion. But that really defeats the purpose of me choosing a healer type to begin with.

tihocan
11-22-2009, 08:38 AM
Good suggestion. But that really defeats the purpose of me choosing a healer type to begin with.
I really don't understand what you mean here. And paladin is not a healer type.

tihocan
11-22-2009, 08:51 AM
The main problem is what I mistook his combat prowess dependent stat. Because of my misunderstanding of what BAB does, I believed that Accuracy is indispensable, while Damage is expandable, while it should have been the reverse. In other words, the reason why it is a failure is because I will be hitting fast and accurate, but NOT hitting hard.

So, instead of taking one Weapon Finesse feat to make it +1 damage and +6 Accuracy. I changed that to +4 damage and +4 accuracy.

Con is now the expandable stat. 2 points only give 20 HP at Lv 20. Paladin gets natural HP very high.

I understand that 18 Str is not very much, and he probably will be struggling in early stages, because that's when accuracy matters.

This also eliminates my problem of having Dex too high such that good armor cannot support it.
I see, so you decided to go str-based instead of dex-based for more DPS.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sold to str-based twf. But I'm not sure it'll work out for you here:

- It's not entirely true that to-hit doesn't matter later on. First, it isn't true at all in Epic difficulty. Second, paladins do not have the huge Str of barbarian, the weapon feats of fighters, or the favored enemies of rangers. So they don't have it so easy. Third, most melees start with at least 16+ in their to-hit stat, and put their 5 level-up points in it, ending at 21, while you'd end at 18. That's another -1.5 to-hit. Last, keep in mind TWF has a -2 to-hit penalty as well, which makes things slightly more difficult for TWF-ers.

- What you want is, you said, a "survivor". Going dex-based is not necessarily a waste if you splash rogue, because it'll allow you to use light armor (required for evasion). And evasion + UMD is extremely useful to a "survivor" build.

Oh, and Paladins don't get very high HP "magically". 12 Con is not that expensive compared to 10 and definitely worth taking.

If you go Str-based, I'd suggest picking stats closer to those of TechNoFear's build above, and get a +1 Dex tome at L5 to pick ITWF instead of wasting a stat increase in Dex.

mechgouki
11-22-2009, 10:24 PM
I can still go either way. It's not too late for me to change.

Str 14
Dex 16
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 16

Since I haven't did the level ups yet, I can still go for Dex and Finesse. But CON does not seem that useful. At least, it isn't as worth. Correct me if I am wrong, it only adds 20 HP at level 20, and 1 Fort save. That 2 Str will probably go a longer way.

I don't mean healer type. I mean self heal.

tihocan
11-23-2009, 09:07 AM
But CON does not seem that useful. At least, it isn't as worth. Correct me if I am wrong, it only adds 20 HP at level 20, and 1 Fort save.
You are correct. And this will be much more useful than +1 will saves (Wis 14 instead of Wis 12).

mechgouki
11-23-2009, 11:25 AM
Thanks for all the help you've given me, Tiho. :)

You see, there's a reason why I changed that working build into the current one I'm using.

I mistook what BAB does. It is accuracy, not damage. At Lv20, your accuracy would be high, but what remains unchanged is your damage, which is reliant on weapons and strength. Basically, that initial build I have would be hitting very accurately, but not hitting enough damage. I valued accuracy over damage. And the greatest error was left at 12 Str, which means that Power Attack is out of bounds. Without tomes at least. Which I'm not counting on.

So the main difference is that 3 damage endgame. As well as that Dex bonus. In short, for the price of a small amount of damage per hit and 1 feat, I gain slightly more accuracy, and more Reflex and AC as well. But the other thing that made me worried about high Dex, is that we may be forced to equip very light armor, or risk losing the Dex itself.

After weighing that, I think this new build would help better than the previous. Among the 6 stats, to me, Con and Int are the most expandable. Not even Wis is expandable. The paladin already gets high HP from level ups and enhancement, and also has high base Fortitude. So the 2 points in Con, simply meant 20 HP at level 20, and 1 Fortitude save. After considering this, I have decided that CON is not very important at all in this case, as compared to other stats.

But of course, I am well aware that may not necessarily be always true. Paladin has a powerful attack that consumes HP. This might help to supply the attacks of course.

Anyway, so that aside, I can still decide between to using a Dex based attack or standard Str attack right now. Basically, I can still choose, whether I pump everything into Dex and use Weapon Finesse (very difficult in finding suitable armor later on), or 1 in Dex and everything else into Strength instead.

I wanted to get Defender of Siberys, but that enhancement requires splashing 1 level of Fighter. (It's that, or I take a lame feat.) I'm not sure how good the capstone is. I also heard that if you want a Past Life Feat, you are required to take a Lv 20 pure class, not multiclass. Not sure if this is true.

Thanks for helping me!

tihocan
11-23-2009, 11:57 AM
Yep, I understand your reasoning, and how it can make sense with little experience in the game. Get that experience and maybe you won't have the same opinion anymore... or maybe you will, who knows :rolleyes:

My advice would be to either go Str-based with stats like those of TechNoFear (possibly Int 8/Wis 10 instead of Int 10/Wis 8 if you're worried about getting these Wis tomes/items), and use a +1 Dex tome for ITWF to avoid wasting a point into Str, or go Dex-based with weapon finesse and splash 2 levels of rogue (12 Str is ok but 14 may be better, if you pick 12 then you'll need the +1 Str tome for power attack). The first option is more DPS while the second is better survivability. Oh, and 12 Con for both cases, in case you missed that point :p

Btw if you want to go Defender of Siberys I think you only need Combat Expertise.

mechgouki
11-24-2009, 05:01 AM
It's a drow, I can't go 8 Int. :P

At 10 int, I don't think I can get Combat Expertise without a tome. Of course, I could try to boost Int. But then I would have to drop Con to 6. :P Not a good idea.

I really need to know. If I have a Paladin splashed Fighter, will I get the past live of both? Or will the Past Live Feat only apply for pure 20's?

tihocan
11-24-2009, 08:46 AM
I really need to know. If I have a Paladin splashed Fighter, will I get the past live of both? Or will the Past Live Feat only apply for pure 20's?
You get the past life feat of your class icon. Being multiclassed does not matter, and you only get one.

mechgouki
11-29-2009, 08:29 AM
I need to ask one more important question. Regarding Armor Dex Limit, does it only affect the bonus you add your dex modifier to your AC?

Will having a low Armor Dex Limit reduce your Reflex as well as your accuracy when using Finesse or Ranged weapons?

If it doesn't, I think most likely I will pump the remaining 4 from level ups into Dex, and replace the Dodge with Finesse.

tihocan
11-29-2009, 08:43 AM
Yes, the max dex bonus to AC only affects the dex bonus to AC.

ivar415
11-29-2009, 04:06 PM
I can still go either way. It's not too late for me to change.

Str 14
Dex 16
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 16

Since I haven't did the level ups yet, I can still go for Dex and Finesse. But CON does not seem that useful. At least, it isn't as worth. Correct me if I am wrong, it only adds 20 HP at level 20, and 1 Fort save. That 2 Str will probably go a longer way.

I don't mean healer type. I mean self heal.Didn´t read the rest of the thread, but no matter what your reasoning is for the love of Vulkor, DON´T go with 10 con! I have 12 on my Ranger and feel totally squishy!
Just dump the damn Wis and Char two points and boost the con so you can actually survive some hits in combat.
You heal with wands and buff with your spells! THAT´s the main perk for us Rangers and Paladins.

mechgouki
12-03-2009, 01:40 AM
Thanks for your advice. But to be honest, I don't feel squishy even with 10 Con. Probably because I have a +4 shield most of the time instead of a second weapon. :P

I AM, however, feeling the pain of 14 Wis now. Unlike for a Cleric, that wisdom bonus only adds a few SP. Even with Wis that high, I can't use more than 6 spells at lv 7.

One more question, Vulkoor line of enhancements are good right now, but do I respec them later? The Drow Scorpion is CR 10, I believe. Useful now, not so much later.

I have Spell Resistance enhancements on now too. But I will also respec them later. At my level, SR 16 is very important, but at Lv 20, it might as well be SR 0.

tihocan
12-03-2009, 09:07 AM
But to be honest, I don't feel squishy even with 10 Con. Probably because I have a +4 shield most of the time instead of a second weapon. :P
That works early on. Wait till you start getting hit 95% of the time and maybe you'll wish you had a higher HP pool ;)


I AM, however, feeling the pain of 14 Wis now. Unlike for a Cleric, that wisdom bonus only adds a few SP. Even with Wis that high, I can't use more than 6 spells at lv 7.
Paladins rely on SP items to boost their SP pool (possibly swapping the item for something more useful after buffing). Wis doesn't help much (another reason why it's best to start low to boost the more important stats, like Con :p).

And yes you'll probably want to respec out of the Scorp and SR enhancements at some point.

ivar415
12-03-2009, 04:22 PM
And yes you'll probably want to respec out of the Scorp and SR enhancements at some point.And spec right back in when you want the level 3 Prestige enhancement.
They´re not THAT bad IMHO.
Enhance the RP and Vulkoor is neat for the little Scorpy thingy.
How long does it lounge around and how effective is it? Comparable to a level2 summon or better, I hope.

2xslick
12-03-2009, 06:59 PM
I myself am another one of the Septembergenarians. My main is a lvl 14 Drow Paladin. Please, please, please drop that wisdom! At least drop it to 12. That lets you cast second level spells. You won't need a wisdom item until lvl 11! As a mid level paladin running around with a base con of 10, don't. Until you can get a heavy fortification item (around lvl 9), 10 con puts you in danger of getting dropped in one hit. The Ogres with their triple cleave will kill you, one on one. You don't even get to use 4th level spells until level 14. 14! By 14 I was able to buy myself +6 con, str, dex, and wis items without any gifts or donations from other players.

A +1 tome costs 20,000 plat on Sarlona's AH. Easily obtainable by lvl 10.

Heck, if you drop that Wis down to 10, I'll mail you a +1 wisdom trinket, so you can cast a spell at level 4.

mechgouki
12-04-2009, 03:09 PM
I know, I'm already regretting that wisdom. It doesn't give as much as SP compared to a cleric. But CON, won't 2 points of CON only add 14 HP at Lv14? Is that little amount of HP really that important?

ivar415
12-04-2009, 04:37 PM
Heck yeah it´s alot. Every single bit counts, as you only need one hit point to fight on and still walk away afterwards.

mechgouki
12-30-2009, 02:14 AM
Okay, I am now level 12 with this character.

Here's my experience. From level 1-10, this guy really shines. Not the most outstanding in attacks, but possesses good dc and accuracy. Able to self heal in emergencies, and have high saves. Most of the quests I did, I outlasted almost everyone else in my group, and I'm the one carrying soulstones to shrines most of the time. Having high saves, and Energy resistance by level 8, means I can survive magic as well.

After that, I started getting my butt kicked. Despite having an AC around 35, when I went into Stromvauld Mine on elite, the Emperor scorpions NEVER missed me. Every attack hit me. When I did Invaders! and A Relic of the Sovereign past, the enemies hit me almost all the time despite having 40 AC. I have a good +5 armor, +5 Shield and even a Protection +4 equipment, and was boosted to 40 AC, yet I get hit 3/4 of the time! The Duegar hits for 30+ damage each time, and they hit very accurately. On top of that, even when my attack roll hit 30 total, it still missed them!

Here is what I can say. My regret is NOT having little CON. It's not having enough INT so I can get Combat Expertise! Combat Expertise is not a nice-to-have, pretty-neat feat. IT'S A MUST HAVE FEAT FOR MELEES!

Having higher con means I get around 20 HP. The enemies hit for 30+! I can barely survive one more attack with that. If I had higher Int on the other hand, I probably will survive better,

Power Attack, compared to Combat Expertise, seems less significant. As a Dex Build, extra damage is a requisite, but the Paladin has other ways of increasing damage. Divine Favor adds a nice amount to hit and damage at high levels, and Divine Might adds to damage. So far, it's a pretty big problem without Power Attack only if the enemy has high DR and you do not have the appropriate equipment. Other than that, it's pretty okay.

eonfreon
12-30-2009, 02:43 AM
After that, I started getting my butt kicked. Despite having an AC around 35, when I went into Stromvauld Mine on elite, the Emperor scorpions NEVER missed me. Every attack hit me. When I did Invaders! and A Relic of the Sovereign past, the enemies hit me almost all the time despite having 40 AC. I have a good +5 armor, +5 Shield and even a Protection +4 equipment, and was boosted to 40 AC, yet I get hit 3/4 of the time! The Duegar hits for 30+ damage each time, and they hit very accurately. On top of that, even when my attack roll hit 30 total, it still missed them!

Here is what I can say. My regret is NOT having little CON. It's not having enough INT so I can get Combat Expertise! Combat Expertise is not a nice-to-have, pretty-neat feat. IT'S A MUST HAVE FEAT FOR MELEES!

Having higher con means I get around 20 HP. The enemies hit for 30+! I can barely survive one more attack with that. If I had higher Int on the other hand, I probably will survive better,

Power Attack, compared to Combat Expertise, seems less significant. As a Dex Build, extra damage is a requisite, but the Paladin has other ways of increasing damage. Divine Favor adds a nice amount to hit and damage at high levels, and Divine Might adds to damage. So far, it's a pretty big problem without Power Attack only if the enemy has high DR and you do not have the appropriate equipment. Other than that, it's pretty okay.

I have a Paladin with both PA and CE , Monk splash and a decent enough UMD to use 5 minute Shield Wands. TWF. I can reach a 60 self-buffed TWF AC with CE and a DT vestment (they just look cooler then DT robes so I use them, I kind of modeled this guy on a Musketeer Paladin). I can reach 58 AC with a large shield (yes it drops my max AC but the DR is sometimes more useful and I don't usually waste shield spell charges except for some Boss Fights). And he's a KoTC not a Defender. I'm also missing key AC bonuses like the Chattering ring (+3), Greensteel Ac Parrying bonus (+3 over my parrying weapon), and can get +8 AC bracers to replace my +6 (+2) = +8 minimum room to grow.

95 % of the time I run around with PA on and don't bother getting my AC over a 46-47.

Not saying you're wrong, just letting you know my experiences after playing the game 3 years.
CE makes you practically untouchable at low levels but decreases in usefulness at higher levels except for certain turtle tanking up boss fights. Because the greater dmg output will kill the Mob quicker and give the enemies less attack opportunities and generally works better then killing them slower and allowing them more attack opportunities even with the -5 decreased chance of them hitting you (which depending on what AC gets to may not actually make the MOBS hit less, especially bosses with insane to-hits, a -5 penalty may not make him miss you on greater then a 1.

PA is an equal penalty as CE to hit and the 2 cannot be activated together. If you're hitting with little enough problem that you can afford to have either one of the stances up for the -5 to hit, PA will generally be of greater value then CE.

Just what I've experienced. AC is one of the biggest grinds in the game.

mechgouki
03-14-2010, 08:48 AM
I am currently up to level 16. Here's what I can say. You guys were right, I should have put 2 points into Con.

In DDO, death comes in many forms, and not having enough AC is just one of them. (Though it still remains the largest reasons for my defeats.) Having 20HP by lv 20 goes a long way, and I realized that now.

During the progression of this character, I made 2 large fatal mistakes. 1st mistake as mentioned, not having enough CON. I should have dropped strength to 12 and use a +1 tome to qualify for Power Attack, and put those two points in CON. (Not going to drop Wisdom. Not a good option for me.)

The second fatal mistake, I did not pick the Ring of Balance. At that time, I couldn't find a suitable armor, so I picked the demon plate. Bad mistake. The Ring of Balance gives 2 AC to non-rangers, and gives Balance Skill. My character is very vulnerable to knockdown instead of this.

Another mistake, not so fatal, was going with Diplomacy instead of UMD. With UMD, I estimated I could reach 18 or so. Still prone to failures, but able to use some buffs like Shield or Blur.

So far, these are just the flaws I made. I'll post the strengths analysis later.

mechgouki
03-14-2010, 05:21 PM
Tiho? Anyone?

Garbudo
03-14-2010, 05:33 PM
yeah its pointless to make that character TWF pallys that want defenses? Take the Ac feats people have listed above like combat expertise the shield feats. End game Leviks shield "hound Raid" if you dont know what it does look. Leviks bracers. Weapon A Bastard Sword "if your cheap" Khopesh if you have Plat". Get full plat of the defender VOD or DT armor. should use minos unless you are intent on using a Greensteel helm And the shield build should go 1st level into Fighter for the max intimidate being Charisma based you will out intimidate a fighter if you have the right equipment.

And if you are intent on being pally TWF with that build why dont you do like Rogue 18 pally 2 or something like the famous build 2rogue 2pally 16sorc WF and use 2 weapons or the casual Min II Greataxe

mechgouki
03-14-2010, 05:46 PM
yeah its pointless to make that character TWF pallys that want defenses? Take the Ac feats people have listed above like combat expertise the shield feats. End game Leviks shield "hound Raid" if you dont know what it does look. Leviks bracers. Weapon A Bastard Sword "if your cheap" Khopesh if you have Plat". Get full plat of the defender VOD or DT armor. should use minos unless you are intent on using a Greensteel helm And the shield build should go 1st level into Fighter for the max intimidate being Charisma based you will out intimidate a fighter if you have the right equipment.

And if you are intent on being pally TWF with that build why dont you do like Rogue 18 pally 2 or something like the famous build 2rogue 2pally 16sorc WF and use 2 weapons or the casual Min II Greataxe

I never said it's pointless. A TWF Pally turned out to be balanced in offense. What I'm saying is that the defense isn't complete. I should have at least more con and taken the right equipment.

Kopeshes are useless to me. A good rapier will do the job better. Especially for Drow.

I got Chaosgarde, +5 Mithral FP, full AC Aura, Tower Shield, and still the AC isn't good enough. Perhaps I should have just gone full offense. I get hit like 70% of the time.

So far, experience tells me that it is usually a lot easier to take out enemies quickly than trying to survive everything they dish at you. Especially for enemies that heal.

tihocan
03-15-2010, 08:21 AM
Tiho? Anyone?
Still around. I didn't see a question though. I'll just point out you can use barkskin pots and a ring of balance if you miss the Invaders! ring.

Besides that, I'm a bit confused as to which build you finally rolled.

mechgouki
03-15-2010, 10:11 AM
Queries I have is mostly regarding AC part. I am a dex build. I can't believe this. I paid 1 million over gp for my +5 mithral FP and put an alchemical on it, Chaosgarde, Cloak of Protection +5, +5 Mithral Tower Shields, full AC aura enhancements, use the Barkskin pots to make up for the Natural Armor, and still my AC sucks. The Outsiders keep pounding the **** out of me.

I've done about everything humanly possible (on f2p anyway). I don't know how else I can make this work. Should I have raised my Int and taken Combat Expertise, along with the Defensive Stance? What else can I do apart from farming raid loot? I now go full offense in attempt to kill before I get killed. (Kinda much more effective.)

tihocan
03-15-2010, 10:13 AM
Queries I have is mostly regarding AC part. I am a dex build. I can't believe this. I paid 1 million over gp for my +5 mithral FP and put an alchemical on it, Chaosgarde, Cloak of Protection +5, +5 Mithral Tower Shields, full AC aura enhancements, use the Barkskin pots to make up for the Natural Armor, and still my AC sucks. The Outsiders keep pounding the **** out of me.

I've done about everything humanly possible (on f2p anyway). I don't know how else I can make this work. Should I have raised my Int and taken Combat Expertise, along with the Defensive Stance?
What's your build? Is it one of those posted previously? If yes, which one? Otherwise, just need your starting stats.

mechgouki
03-15-2010, 10:29 AM
This build is a complete failure. The main design problem, was that I mistook BAB for Damage, instead of Accuracy, which is what it really is. Because of that, the setup is all wrong, so I have to scrap and reroll again.

Drow Paladin Lv 1 Stats
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 16

I am not counting on being able to get the right tomes, so Wisdom have to stay 14 to use all Spells. Dexterity is the stat absolutely required for TWF. Charisma is the most important defense stat, affecting all saves. Strength is the offense stat. I need 6 points in all these important stats, plus some points in Con as well to increase the HP. Con is essential, but not not as important because the Paladin gets 10 HP/level, as well as the Paladin Toughness Enhancements.

For Enhancements, the Drow gets 2 Dex, and Paladin gets 3 Cha bonus. For level ups, 1 point will go into Dex, to make it 17, eligible for Greater Two Handed Fighting. The remaining 4 points will go into Str.

EDIT: The prestige path taken will be the Defender of Siberys or Knight of Chalice. The Defender of Siberys will require splashing of at least 1 level of Fighter.

The 7 feats chosen:
Toughness,
Power Attack,
Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Critical Piercing,
Dodge

Primary Weapons are Short Sword and Rapier.

Objective of this build is survivability. Requirements, high saves, decent HP and AC, able to self Heal, and combat efficient. Doesn't have to be the absolute best attacker or tank or healer, but he must have all these requirements.

I need feedback on this redesign. Is it good? If it is, I can start rerolling right now.

This one. Except its all Dex, no str. I did put 1 pt with 1 tome in Cha to increase the base to 18 to get Divine Might 3. I splashed 1 Level of Ftr, did not take Dodge, and took Finesse. On the Defender Prestige.

tihocan
03-15-2010, 10:34 AM
This one. Except its all Dex, no str.
Like 10 Str/18 Dex at character creation? Or just saying you putting level-ups in Dex?

krud
03-15-2010, 10:59 AM
Objective is defense, so high saves and decent HP, and still maintain physical attack prowess, while still capable of healing and supporting teammates (if not soloing).

If you don't mind multiclassing, have a look at this build http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=231026


Good at all of the above, although the 2 LoH are definitely not up to full paladin potential. On my human they only hit for ~100hp each, but will work in a pinch. Basically, it's a self-sufficient twf tank. Can be converted to elite worthy intimidator with the addition of a few intim feats.

tihocan
03-15-2010, 11:00 AM
So AC at L20:
10 (base)
18 (armor bonus with Dragontouched Plate and Defender of Siberys III)
5 (Paladin AC aura, may be higher with DoS III?)
5 (Protection)
9 (Levik's Defender shield from Hound)
2 (Defensive Fighting)
3 (Barkskin potion)
4 (Insight bonus from Shroud weapon or DT armor)
1 (Haste)
2 (Chaosguarde)
2 (Eldritch ritual on armor + shield)
--
61 AC self-buffed without too rare items, which is not great but useful. You should ge able to play intimi-tank in parties though, as with a few more buffs you'd be good to go (and you have room for griding a bit more AC with +3 dodge from Chattering Ring or DT armor, and when shield blocking you'd have a significantly higher AC). Too bad you don't have CE, and extra +3 wouldn't hurt.

Let me quote myself from an earlier post in this thread:

Be aware that without Combat Expertise you can't really hope to have a meaningful AC with TWF with this kind of build. Even with it you did you'd still be most likely on the low side of the useful AC range. Going tower shield is a possible idea but (...) your DPS will also suffer a lot, which will put you in trouble when soloing, because you may have a hard time killing stuff fast enough.

So in short, I think if you're soloing you shouldn't worry too much about AC because you won't have enough DPS to kill stuff while turtling up. Better focus on offense in this case, and heal up between fights.

Jasimine
03-15-2010, 11:17 AM
I feel your pain on the AC issues and wanting to be not splatter bait to every melee mob that walks up to you. Sadly this is actually increadibly difficult for a class that appears to be, on the surface, one of the most defensive melee classes in the game, second only to a monk. Atleast if you want to maintain a reasonable offensive power.

I myself play a level 20 Drow Paladin. I have all DPS enhancements, am built for two weapon fighting, and generally have decent gear for the amount of time I have been playing at level 20.

I spent several weeks agonizing over my apparent lack of ability to survive an attack solo... I crunched numbers, worked figures, and did everything I could possibly imagine to figure a way out to squeeze every last bit of AC in I could with out sacrificing my DPS. And I tried to do this entirely with F2P classes and races.

Lets look at some numbers first.

AC mod//Item
===========
10//base
8//bracers
4//Insight GS Weapon
12//Dex(34 finesse build)
4//Icy Rainments
5//Protection Item
1//Alchemical Bonus
3//Bark Skin pot
5//Aura
1//Haste
4//Shield Clickie/wand
==================
57 AC self buffed
+2//Recitation
+4//AC Song
===================
63 AC raid equipped
+3 Chattering Ring (I don't have this pack so did not count it in original figures)
====================
66

Now 66 AC is a fine AC don't get me wrong, but the true magic comes in when you break 70. 70+ AC's is what is needed for tanking raid bosses and dealing with things that get nasty.

Now the only problem with this is your DPS is going to suffer no matter what. Why you ask? Well, sit down and try to plan out how to get all of the following into one build.

DPS Enhancements
==============
Divine Might IV
Divine Sacrifice III
Exhaulted Smite IV
Extra Smites IV
Paladin Capstone

Survival Enhancements (Non-AC)
========================
Racial Toughness II
Paladin Toughness IV
Extra Lay on Hands III

KotC Pre-req's
==============
Basic Faith
Advanced Faith
Energy of the Templar II
Aura of Courage II

AC Enhancements
=============
Bulwark of Good IV

Stat Based Enhancements
===================
Elven Dex II
Paladin Charisma II

Now, there is no way to fit all of these in. However if you drop anything related to defense your AC numbers start to plummet and very quickly fall out of the acceptable range for someone to survive via AC. Also, you may have noticed that I did not include combat expertise in the figures. Truethfully a dual wield paladin just does not have the room for the intellegence. You could rely on a +3 tome but that would be rather rough unless you are a TR'd build.

So it comes down to drop your AC, which then becomes non-functioning again, or drop your DPS. It is a choice that you would have to make on your own. However, if you want a starting point from which I was building these numbers....

TWF DPS Finesse Paladin with Usable AC

Str 14 + 2 Tome + 6 Item = 20
Dex 16 + 5 levels + 2 racial + 6 Item + 2 Tome + 3 Exceptional = 34
Con 12 + 2 tome + 6 item = 20
Int 10 negligable
Wis 8 + 2 Tome + 6 Item = 16 (more then enough to cast your spells.)
Cha 17 + 3 tome (Needed for Divine Might IV if you want it) + 6 Item = 26

Now this build will end up having to give up something from either DPS, HP's, or AC to work, and if you want a functioning ac that means it's either DPS or HP's, more or less. You'd have to choose yourself.