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Noyabrina
11-15-2009, 12:58 PM
My target is character for solo play on free account. I'm not sure about stunning blow on non-profile character, but since lineage-playing, I like this ability :)


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Fighter Cleric
Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Cleric)
Hit Points: 380
Spell Points: 1510
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 7
Will: 16

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 16
Dexterity 12 12
Constitution 16 18
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 14 20
Charisma 12 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 1 5
Bluff 1 1
Concentration 5 24.5
Diplomacy 1 1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 1 1
Heal 2 5
Hide 1 1
Intimidate 1 1
Jump 2 3
Listen 2 5
Move Silently 1 1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 1
Spot 2 5
Swim 2 3
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 2 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 5 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II


Level 7 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II


Level 8 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV


Level 13 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 14 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV


Level 16 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II


Level 17 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV


Level 19 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarven Faith I
Enhancement: Dwarven Faith II


Level 20 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarven Faith III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I




Is Iron/Adamantine Companion usefull enchancement? May be, if I get Self Sufficient feat I recieve good summon for solo play?

Angelus_dead
11-15-2009, 04:23 PM
My target is character for solo play on free account. I'm not sure about stunning blow on non-profile character, but since lineage-playing, I like this ability
Way, way too much charisma. I mean, seriously: removing the racial penalty and your charisma is equal to your strength and wisdom. You shouldn't put even 1 point into cha. And you shouldn't have more constitution than both strength and wisdom.

The reason for a melee cleric to have charisma would be Divine Might, and you didn't even train it. (Its not worth it anyhow).

Taking the second fighter level for a melee cleric is not really worth it... especially if you're going to blow the bonus feat on Weapon Focus. Note that a barbarian level is actually nice for running speed.

Robot dogs: Are worthless. Self-sufficient feat: Very worthless.

Noyabrina
11-15-2009, 04:34 PM
I'm not sure, but when i'm playing sorcerer (18Cha), I recieve much rewards from quests than I am playing rogue (8Cha). So I decide give 12 Cha for my character. Is it important for turn undead skill?

Visty
11-15-2009, 04:42 PM
cha doesnt affect your loot at all

let cha at minimum and put those points into str

you want to melee, you need to hit

and turning uneads is useless even if you max your cha, so some meager 12cha wont do much :)

Twerpp
11-15-2009, 04:43 PM
I'm not sure, but when i'm playing sorcerer (18Cha), I recieve much rewards from quests than I am playing rogue (8Cha). So I decide give 12 Cha for my character. Is it important for turn undead skill?
It doesnt affect loot and rarely npc reaction (just a couple quests and haggle skill). It is important for turn undead but on a bttlecleric I would just club them to death or balde barrier. Dump charisma entirely.

spitfirek
11-15-2009, 09:22 PM
There is an awesome post in the cleric forums about a solo build... this guy can solo most raids.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=164323

BTW, it is definitely NOT a f2p build and requires a lot of high end gear; but it is a nice read and helps teach a lot about solo clerics.

Kralgnax
11-16-2009, 12:14 AM
Well, I play a fighting-ish cleric, so I have some thoughts
WIS, STR CON are really what matters, nothing else.

I'd go cleric level 1, then pick up fighter later (say, after 3). You'll do fine knocking things on the head 'till then, then you can pick up martial weapons and the rest.

It looks like you want to really go on heavy axe mastery early - I wouldn't, especially if it's your firtst character, as you won't have a lot of cash and drops are unpredictabble.

Mental toughness before extend. You won't have stellar wisdom, so you'll want those SPs for buffs and heals.

Remember, summons are mostly there for distractions.

That's the highlights. Good luck and welcome to DDO!

Therigar
11-16-2009, 12:53 AM
If you are going to solo most of the time then you need to be able to accomplish 4 things.

1) You need to be able to damage things fast enough to prevent them regenerating so that you eventually finish with an encounter before you are killed.
2) You need enough AC to avoid being hit almost all of the time.
3) You need enough HP to absorb the damage if you do get hit.
4) You need evasion that is effective and high saving throws.

This means that your only dump stats are INT and CHA. Everything else is important. It also means that you will probably splash monk for the AC boost that WIS is going to give.

The most reasonable build is 18/2 cleric/monk. Halfling is generally the most attractive race because of the AC bonus but it isn't necessarily the best choice. You will want to be able to do many things well and that could include both ranged and melee combat to support your offensive spells. Elf might be a better choice.

Because AC will be a synergy of DEX and WIS you should not max out WIS. Those 6 build points can get you more used elsewhere. You should also plan your starting stat based on what you expect to get for tomes and equipment while also planning stat increases and enchancements.

For example, WIS can have +3 tome, +6 item, +5 stat increases and +3 enhancements -- that is a total of +17. Starting WIS should therefore be an odd number -- probably 15 in order to get best value out of build points.

DEX is similar with +3 tome, +6 item and +2 enhancements for +11. An drow, elf or halfling starts with 10 DEX so a starting DEX of 17 probably is the right value.

If you have 32 point builds it will make a difference. Without 32 point builds you should probably consider STR 12 and CON 13. That leaves 1 build point that I would put into INT.

If you have 32 point builds then drop STR to 11 and raise CON to 15.

If you choose to go with halfling then STR is 13 and CON 15.

Odd numbers for starting stats allow you to use +1 and +3 tomes. Other gear and stat increases from leveling or enhancements will provide even numbers -- and all bonuses are based on even numbers.

STR needs to be high enough to cause reasonable damage. CON high enough to get reasonable HP.

Feats need to include Toughness along with the TWF line. You also need weapon finesse. This is another reason to consider elf as rapier is a finesse weapon. An 18/2 cleric/monk will have 9 feats. Those should be: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Maximize, Empower, Extend and Power Attack. It would be nice to fit in Quicken as well. It becomes a matter of choice -- Extend or Quicken.

Of course, you could choose human. That gives the extra feat but also loses some DEX enhancements. If you do that then adjust DEX to 16 and STR to 14. WIS and CON are then both 15 to start. You would increase DEX and STR using the human stat enhancments.

Note that with 15 DEX you must consume a +2 tome and with a 16 DEX you must consume a +1 tome before you can qualify for ITWF and GTWF.

So, lots to consider if going this route but definitely the most soloable cleric build will use this model.

Noyabrina
11-16-2009, 07:15 AM
great thanks for your replies, they really help me. Could I have tomes on F2P account, or not? Is DEX bonus from Weapon Fineese feat stack with STR bonus, or they replace each other?

Visty
11-16-2009, 07:34 AM
great thanks for your replies, they really help me. Could I have tomes on F2P account, or not? Is DEX bonus from Weapon Fineese feat stack with STR bonus, or they replace each other?

you can have tomes as f2p and finesse replaces str with dex

Draccus
11-16-2009, 07:42 AM
If you are going to solo most of the time then you need to be able to accomplish 4 things.

1) You need to be able to damage things fast enough to prevent them regenerating so that you eventually finish with an encounter before you are killed.
2) You need enough AC to avoid being hit almost all of the time.
3) You need enough HP to absorb the damage if you do get hit.
4) You need evasion that is effective and high saving throws.


I disagree with some of this. I think you need these four things to solo:

1. Self healing
2. Persistant AOE Damage
3. HP to survive being knocked down
4. Melee DPS for single targets or when you're out of spell points

A cleric is the perfect character for this because they can easily get all four. A TWF dwarf cleric/fighter with high str, high con, moderate wisdom, and enough dex for ITWF is all you need to Easymode the game solo.

An FvS or a WF Sorc/Wiz would work as well. I have a poorly built, horribly equipped, healing-spec cleric who can solo most of the game with two keys: Blade Barrier and Heal. By simply replacing some of the unnecessary healing focus with some good melee DPS, he'd be an amazing soloist. I'm leveling a melee spec'd FvS right now (elf, longswords, TWF) and he has solo'd to level 11 so far and is flying through level appropriate quests with ease...and he doesn't even have Blade Barrier yet!

Tumarek
11-16-2009, 07:48 AM
...
Taking the second fighter level for a melee cleric is not really worth it... especially if you're going to blow the bonus feat on Weapon ...

The 2nd level Fighter gives you +1 strength from the enchantment "Fighter strength" and an extra Feat. I think it can be handy for battleclerics using 2WF since they are low on feats, but on this build i agree.

oh and you probably should take empowered healing instead of toughness... or something for cc to make those bladebarriers do more damage. really great to get rid of big mobs chasing you.

Therigar
11-16-2009, 08:06 AM
I disagree with some of this.

My response is directed specifically to soloing a cleric because this is what OP refers to. It should not be taken as advice regarding non-cleric builds.

As a cleric the OP will already have self-healing and AoE effect spells (at least they will have AoE spells as they reach higher levels). Thus these do not need to be addressed as they are a given part of the build.

Thus, I read that you agree with my assessment only that you limit your advice to two areas -- HP and DPS -- rather than four. Ignoring the value of evasion and high saves is a mistake. Higher level quests kill you not by direct melee or ranged damage but by spell use. Evasion and high saving throws is the only response.

Similarly, high AC is what enables you to ignore most of the melee and ranged attacks. So a solo character wants to have the highest practical AC to push the mobs to-hit numbers to 19+ (better, to 20+).

Monk is the best splash option to achieve both of these. Because OP posted in New Player Advice I am assuming that they are a new player. This is why I don't advise a more exotic build with additional character splashes. OP will be best served by keeping spell DCs relatively high -- L18 cleric. They will also be best served by having higher saves and evasion and AC -- L2 monk. These two classes are very synergetic because of WIS.

@ Noyabrina -- weapon finesse lets you use DEX for your to hit calculations when using light weapons and rapiers. As an elf or drow you gain racial access to rapiers and shortswords -- both are finesse weapons. As an elf you also gain access to longbows -- a better ranged weapon. You want to ignore the ability to use longswords or the scimitar enhancement line as neither is a finesse weapon and it will be a waste to invest more than your starting points into STR for a solo focused build.

As I indicated before, you need enough STR to do damage thru the mob's ability to regenerate or self heal. It is enough to have 11 to 15 STR at character start (depending on race decisions). Your other option is to have stat damaging weapons. The best of these are rapiers. You can find the others you need on kamas which are also finesse weapons and come to you with your monk levels.

tihocan
11-16-2009, 08:55 AM
Advice to OP's build: drop Dex to 10 (your AC will still be ok while it matters, but anyway in the long term at some point you'll stop worrying about AC), Cha to 6-10, and boost Wis to at least 16 (and put your level-up point there). Str to 15-16 if you have enough points (probably not).
Don't take so many toughness feats.
Stunning blow is fine at first, but at some point it won't work anymore so you can swap it out.
You'll want at least quicken, and probably maximize to boost your blade barriers (which you'll find extremely useful even on a melee cleric).

PS: oh, and get power attack.
PPS: oh, and I pretty much totally disagree with what Therigar said below this post (at least in the first half), but it seems like he is playing a different game than I am, so there is not much point arguing, just take the two opinions and do what you want with them :)

Therigar
11-16-2009, 10:29 AM
Advice to OP's build: drop Dex to 10 (your AC will still be ok while it matters, but anyway in the long term at some point you'll stop worrying about AC), Cha to 6-10, and boost Wis to at least 16 (and put your level-up point there). Str to 15-16 if you have enough points (probably not).
Don't take so many toughness feats.
Stunning blow is fine at first, but at some point it won't work anymore so you can swap it out.
You'll want at least quicken, and probably maximize to boost your blade barriers (which you'll find extremely useful even on a melee cleric).

PS: oh, and get power attack.

Regardless of what OP splashes into cleric for a battlecleric solo build this advice is just wrong.

You need 15 DEX minimum in order to qualify for the full TWF line -- and that assumes you will consume a +2 tome before taking ITWF and GTWF. You only tank DEX on a solo build if you are not planning to use TWF.

You don't plan a solo build that is unable to fight its way out in an emergency. A good solo build will choose melee and ranged combat over spell use in order to conserve mana over the long haul. The option is to have lots of mana renewal and that means frequent trips to the Turbine Store or lots of mana pots sitting around. Neither is a smart choice. A solo character should never use mana when melee or ranged combat will achieve the same result.

If OP chooses to splash something other than monk and go for a less gear intensive build (and that is the danger of the cleric/monk build) then they still want enough DEX to maximize the DEX bonus to AC. If a player goes this route then they will want a dwarf cleric 18/fighter 2. The dwarven armor mastery enhancement line lets you gain +3 to DEX bonus on armor. Mithral full plate has a max DEX bonus of +3. With the enhancements this moves to +6. That means a end DEX of 22. Since items cap at +6 this means a base DEX of 16. Counting on a +1 tome this means a starting DEX of 15.

Saying AC eventually doesn't matter is simply incorrect. It is completely possible to reach an AC where 90% of the mobs you'll face need 20+ to hit you. The less a character is hit the less they use resources in healing -- saving mana and/or plat (for wands and scrolls).

The only viable option to DEX based melee using weapon finesse and TWF is STR based melee using THF. In either case you want to maximize your AC to the greatest degree possible. The greatest possible AC will be achieved with cleric/monk. The next greatest will be achieved by either a dwarf cleric/fighter or a warforged cleric/fighter. Note that you could optionally go cleric/paladin with these for a very small boost to AC but that you will lose out on feats and in this case the feats will probably be more useful.

Toughness is a good placeholder feat if you don't know what feat you want or if you don't yet qualify for a feat due to stat restrictions. Stat increases have a retroactive effect so if you raise DEX to 17 base thru tome use at L15 you can go back and use a L9 feat to pick up GTWF for example. Otherwise Tihocan is correct regarding the number of toughness feats.

Regarding starting with 16 WIS see my posts elsewhere on using planned tomes, enhancements, stat increases and items to plot final stat numbers. A cleric with 3 WIS enhancements, 5 stat increases, a +1/+3 tome and +6 stat item needs to start with an odd WIS score. 3+5+1+6=15. A 15 WIS is sufficient.

This only changes if you go with human as your race because you can use the human enhancement to boost WIS or if you plan on +2/+4 tomes or if you plan on crafting an item with the full +3 exceptional WIS bonus. Going with the full exceptional WIS bonus and +2/+4 tomes gives 3+5+2+6+3=19 so still argues for 15 WIS. But, the full exceptional bonus and +1/+3 tomes gives 3+5+1+6+3=18 meaning you should bump to 16 WIS.

Simply advising 16 WIS is an error without providing context regarding expected items, enhancements and stat increases.*

*Note that all calculations involving +1/+3 or +2/+4 use the lower number. Raise final number by 2 if you use the higher tome.

mechgouki
11-16-2009, 11:11 AM
I didn't read the whole thing, but here are my 2 cents.

EDIT: Nevermind the stats are correct. I made a mistake.

I think Dex is useful, particularly for a Dwarf, due to the fact that the Dwarf can increase Dex limit of the Heavy Armor the cleric can wear. But of course, if you don't need the AC or Reflex, put them in Wis instead of Dex.

tihocan
11-16-2009, 11:38 AM
I think Dex is useful, particularly for a Dwarf, due to the fact that the Dwarf can increase Dex limit of the Heavy Armor the cleric can wear.
With DT armor in mind (quite reasonable since it's easy enough to get), the max dex bonus to AC will only be 4 on a dwarf. You can reasonably reach 18 Dex with 10 base, a +2 tome and a +6 item.

Therigar
11-16-2009, 02:36 PM
With DT armor in mind (quite reasonable since it's easy enough to get), the max dex bonus to AC will only be 4 on a dwarf. You can reasonably reach 18 Dex with 10 base, a +2 tome and a +6 item.

True but what benefit does DT armor provide that MFP with the higher DEX does not provide with respect to AC? While DT armor is easy to get the various perks on the armor are not (they've been compared to a lottery). So planning DT for AC purposes is probably poor planning -- particularly when it comes in at 1 AC lower overall IIRC.*

*Once DEX is taken into account.

tihocan
11-16-2009, 02:53 PM
True but what benefit does DT armor provide that MFP with the higher DEX does not provide with respect to AC? While DT armor is easy to get the various perks on the armor are not (they've been compared to a lottery). So planning DT for AC purposes is probably poor planning -- particularly when it comes in at 1 AC lower overall IIRC.*

*Once DEX is taken into account.
DT armor's AC is same as MFP. But:
- DT armor is easier to get for a new player (just need to run the 4 quests, while won't be able to afford a MFP right away)
- MFP requires more Dex to reach the same AC
- DT armor can be upgraded if you work for it, MFP can't

I don't see much reason to plan for MFP instead of DT.

Therigar
11-16-2009, 04:08 PM
If a player is high enough level to run the quests for DT armor they are high enough level to have found or purchased MFP. I found +4 MFP very easily.

Still, if a player is limiting themselves then certainly planning for the lower AC and use of plate armor is the way to go. As I've indicated in other posts the best option is monk splash thus avoiding armor altogether.

OTOH, players who discount the value of AC will settle for significantly less in the mistaken belief that it still permits a strong solo capable character.

Quintun
11-16-2009, 08:40 PM
If a player is high enough level to run the quests for DT armor they are high enough level to have found or purchased MFP. I found +4 MFP very easily.

Still, if a player is limiting themselves then certainly planning for the lower AC and use of plate armor is the way to go. As I've indicated in other posts the best option is monk splash thus avoiding armor altogether.

OTOH, players who discount the value of AC will settle for significantly less in the mistaken belief that it still permits a strong solo capable character.

So instead of planning a build to include armor you can get from a absolute source, you are recommending random drop or AH purchase?

Therigar
11-16-2009, 11:59 PM
I'm just observing that OP will likely have the resources for MFP by the time he runs the quests for DT armor. If it were my build I would plan for the MFP and only be satisfied with DT as an interim if I had not yet acquired the MFP.

OTOH, if it were my build I would be splashing monk and wearing Icy Raiments and hunting for max AC bracers. So the notion that we should plan for what is safe doesn't really figure into my build ideas.

Restricting DEX to 10 at creation is horribly limiting to any battlecleric build. It only works if STR is high enough to allow the build to substitute THF for TWF. The mindset that the build should use mana for all things and only engage in melee as a last resort is not correct, IMO.

The correct mindset is that the build should engage in melee or ranged combat at every opportunity and fall back on mana use only when it is absolutely necessary. A soloing character that is relying on mana first will soon run out and end up fighting but without resources to save itself in a real emergency. That same character that relies on fighting first and reserves mana only for emergencies will find that it regularly has more than enough mana for the quest.

To fight first means that the build must have best practical AC. Best practical AC comes in two forms. One is monk splash using the DEX/WIS synergy. The other is MFP with full DEX bonus. Planning for anything less is planning to fail.

To fight first also means that the build must be able to deliver enough DPS to prevent fights from being overly long. This too means having more DEX than 10 so that the build can access the full TWF line. Again, the alternative is to have much higher STR and to use THF.

Planning a solo battlecleric build and going with a 10 DEX is just a recipe for disaster. Justifying that poor choice by saying that the plan is to use DT armor simply buries the bad decision behind something else that is a less than best choice. Two wrongs do nothing to help the battlecleric build.

Angelus_dead
11-17-2009, 01:15 AM
I'm just observing that OP will likely have the resources for MFP by the time he runs the quests for DT armor.
That is entirely false.


Planning a solo battlecleric build and going with a 10 DEX is just a recipe for disaster.
Totally wrong, because it depends on your false claim that AC is important.

Therigar
11-17-2009, 01:47 AM
Well, I suppose that if the claim is false then it would be totally wrong.

Why is it a false claim? Let's take some common quests and discuss options for soloing them with a cleric -- STK part 3, Stormcleave, VoN 3, Rainbow in the Dark. These are quests that I have soloed so I know they can be done. At what point does AC stop being important? When does it stop helping to succeed in the quest? Where would you put the build points and what would you substitute for AC to succeed in soloing these quests on a battlecleric? How does the relative abundance of shrines in STK 3 and Stormcleave affect the solo strategy and how does the relative lack of shrines in VoN 3 and Rainbow affect soloing?

Lastly, note that battlecleric implies willingness to battle. DEX buys you the best combat style in the game with the TWF line. Going with less than 15 DEX means going without TWF or it means putting stat increases into DEX. Unless a person is willing to wait for a +3 or +4 tome the absolute lowest you could start DEX is 10 if you put every stat increase into DEX and also consume a +2 tome. That would not be very stat efficient or build point efficient.

What would you suggest for a solo battlecleric regarding starting stats and why? How would you recommend the character be played? If your focus is on spell casting then why opt for battlecleric at all, why not go pure class cleric. What would a battle splash bring to the build of value?

The entire point of a battle cleric is the ability to melee or range the trash and to save mana and spells for key encounters. And, this is more true when soloing than when grouping. So, even if AC doesn't matter having sufficient DEX for the TWF line does matter.*

Lastly, if AC really does not matter then why are there regular discussions about builds that shoot for ~70+ AC? Please don't tell me how epic content makes a difference -- this is the new player's forum area.

*Note that the only viable alternative to this is to have enough STR for THF. So, if A_D shows that on normal thru elite content that a self buffed AC of say 63** is enough to stop 90% of all damage and that the AC can be reached with a 10 DEX, DT plate armored character and that the build points can buy enough STR to make THF a practical DPS alternative to the TWF line.... Well, then I guess he'd be right.

**I don't know that 63 would be enough. I typically plan for 70+ raid buffed and somewhere around 62 or 63 self-buffed. It could well be that the number is much lower. I seem to recall some AC comparisons where the key number is somewhere in that area. But I'm willing to let A_D establish the actual value for AC***.

***Of course, if AC really doesn't matter then it might as well be 10 and we can do away with the armor slot and replace armor with protective robes or outfits that give more important things to us -- like elemental resistances or deathblock or some such.

tihocan
11-17-2009, 09:01 AM
There are various options for solo battle-cleric. All should also keep decent offensive casting abilities, because there are many times when it'll be much easier to kite stuff through BB than try to melee a group of mob (e.g. fighting 10 devils/orthons simultaneously in Sins, if like me you suck at zerging ;)).

Among these options, you can go Finesse TWF high dex with monk splash. This is a good survivable character with evasion/AC, but DPS will be lacking. And it takes a lot of feats.

If you want a more offensive kind of battlecleric, you can go THF with focus on Str and forget about Dex and AC. This is a perfectly viable approach, and you don't need to take all THF feats to achieve some reasonably useful DPS. If you ever feel like you need AC you can switch to DT full-plate + shield, at the cost of much lower DPS. There is probably little reason to do that though, because you'd probably end up in the mid-50's AC, which is not enough to really matter at end game.

You can also go TWF Str-based without AC for the best DPS-oriented build.

And of course there are other more exotic options and variants... But using Mithral FP isn't really one of them, except while leveling up if you happen to come across one.

mechgouki
11-17-2009, 09:10 AM
Okay, you guys lost me completely. What is MFP, DT, OTOH? What's that?

Personal opinion, I think that a good AC will be beneficial to a Dwarven Cleric. Not compulsory yes, but definitely beneficial. Just my 2 cents. A cleric is also melee capable too, considering the armor and weapon proficiency. Why not put that to use?

tihocan
11-17-2009, 09:33 AM
Okay, you guys lost me completely. What is MFP, DT, OTOH? What's that?

Personal opinion, I think that a good AC will be beneficial to a Dwarven Cleric. Not compulsory yes, but definitely beneficial. Just my 2 cents. A cleric is also melee capable too, considering the armor and weapon proficiency. Why not put that to use?
MFP = Mithral Full Plate
DT = Dragontouched, for DT Armor (http://ddowiki.com/page/Dragontouched_Armor)
OTOH = On The Other Hand (I guess, first time I see it too)

You think a cleric can combine both AC and melee offense at the same time. This is true up to mid levels, but later you need a very specific build to achieve this kind of goal, and it's not something I would recommend to a new player, because getting good AC at high level is very gear-intensive. Thus my suggestion is rather to go for a THF-based melee-able cleric, knowing your AC will suck at end game, which is not a big deal.

Therigar
11-17-2009, 10:12 AM
You think a cleric can combine both AC and melee offense at the same time. This is true up to mid levels, but later you need a very specific build to achieve this kind of goal, and it's not something I would recommend to a new player, because getting good AC at high level is very gear-intensive. Thus my suggestion is rather to go for a THF-based melee-able cleric, knowing your AC will suck at end game, which is not a big deal.

In general I'd agree with tihocan's analysis here. However, the key issue in this thread is SOLO battlecleric. When the focus is on soloing then AC does matter.

The debate is on how much matters. And, that decision probably depends on play style and level of knowledge concerning quests.

Some people with a very strong knowledge of the existing encounters can get by with zerging through. They can get maximum benefit out of their offensive spells by pulling mobs in large numbers to locations that they know very well. Others, with less intimate knowledge of quests, need to rely more heavily on the battle part of the build rather than the cleric part -- on melee and/or ranged combat rather than on offensive spells.

Because I come at battleclerics having played primarily melee oriented characters my approach is to battle first and cleric second. I tend to solo most content with a melee character mentality -- meaning that I try to pull small number at one time, to clear the immediate area and make sure it is relatively secure before moving on, take my time and only use the mana when it is going to get me a lot of bang-for-the-buck.

So, to me almost every point of AC is important. I only sacrifice AC if there is something else that I feel is more valuable to the build. For example, I will forgo Halfling in favor of Elf and give up the size bonus to AC in order to have higher starting STR and free racial access to longbows, longswords, rapiers and shortswords.

AC and evasion are two of the critical elements in my building of solo oriented battleclerics. That can be radically changed when the focus is on a group oriented build.

And, because AC and evasion are critical elements to me the fact that I might need to work for the best armor combination is simply a given part of the character. I may find the gear I need with the battlecleric build or I may find it with another character and pass it over -- but regardless of what is needed I accept that getting the gear is a part of the build just like gaining XP or favor or stat increases or any other part of making the character into the final product that I am shooting for.

tihocan
11-17-2009, 10:29 AM
When the focus is on soloing then AC does matter.
Not necessarily.

I guess my main point here is that the OP's build is unlikely to be able to meet a meaningful AC at end game. Do the maths if you want, but my guess is around mid 50's. I have a L19 character with this kind of AC and he's getting hit a lot in the L17+ content.
He could make a totally different build, going twf halfling finesse monk splash, but... that's a totally different build.

ChudleyTwo
11-17-2009, 10:51 AM
As a newbish player that has been reading about cleric splash builds for the past few weeks, I'm liking my Dwarf Cleric with 1 level of Barb so far. Threads that have been helpful were: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=169614 & http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1895558&postcount=47. They both have decent character layouts & were laid out as a F2P character which I needed.

A monk splash wasn't an option for me as I'm on a budget & can only play 1-2 hours a week right now.

Do what you think you will have fun with. That helps you keep gaining levels. Good luck!!!


Chad

EDIT: Sorry. Pointing you to the character template thread was a little less specific than I planned. Changes 2nd link to go to the Dwarf Cleric/Barb build several pages into that thread.

Therigar
11-17-2009, 11:44 AM
Not necessarily.

I guess my main point here is that the OP's build is unlikely to be able to meet a meaningful AC at end game. Do the maths if you want, but my guess is around mid 50's. I have a L19 character with this kind of AC and he's getting hit a lot in the L17+ content.
He could make a totally different build, going twf halfling finesse monk splash, but... that's a totally different build.

20whatever must really signal the end of the world -- or at least life as we know it. Here I am finding myself agreeing to a degree with tihocan again, certainly a sign of the impending apocolypse. :)

If OP's build relies on armor and uses anything other than monk for its splash class then you may well be correct. And, I think it is necessary to do the math to decide if that is so or not.

10 base AC
13 +5 mithral full plate
01 alchemical dodge ritual
06 maximum DEX bonus
01 dodge bonus: feat*
02 dodge bonus: Chaosgarde bracers
03 dodge bonus: Chattering Ring
04 insight bonus: Mineral II weapon
05 deflection bonus: +5 protection item
--
45 unbuffed AC in TWF mode

07 +5 heavy shield**
01 alchemical dodge ritual
--
53 unbuffed AC in defensive mode

03 barkskin: potion
01 haste: potion or clicky
04 shield bonus: clicky
02 recitation
02 defensive fighting
--
57 selfbuffed AC in TWF mode

The shield clicky won't stack with an actual shield so the AC in defensive mode is 61.

Depending on if the OP is actually soloing or is "soloing with henchmen" the AC could go a bit higher but getting what are, in effect, party buffs. The AC can also be a bit higher if OP has a base 13 INT and uses CE in place of defensive fighting or if OP takes the two-weapon defense feat.

But, generally speaking it looks like 57 to 61 AC is the max for an armor wearing build.

By comparison:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Drow Battlecleric
Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Monk \ 18 Cleric)
Hit Points: 262
Spell Points: 1172
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 13
Will: 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 10 13
Dexterity 16 18
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 16 22
Charisma 10 12

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 7 9
Bluff 0 1
Concentration 6 26
Diplomacy 0 1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 0 1
Heal 5 26
Hide 3 4
Intimidate 0 1
Jump 4 5
Listen 3 8
Move Silently 3 4
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 0 3
Spot 3 10
Swim 0 1
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 4 (Cleric)


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)


Level 8 (Cleric)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 16 (Cleric)


Level 17 (Cleric)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)





Assuming +6 DEX and WIS items and +2 exceptional WIS the AC projection for this build becomes

10 base
08 +8 armored bracers
04 +4 dodge bonus on Icy Raiments
01 alchemical dodge bonus
01 dodge bonus: feat
03 dodge bonus: Chattering Ring
07 DEX bonus on 24 DEX
10 WIS bonus on 30 WIS
01 Monk centered bonus
05 deflection bonus: +5 protection item
04 insight bonus: Mineral II weapon
--
54 unbuffed AC in TWF mode

03 barkskin potion
01 haste potion
02 recitation spell
04 shield spell from clicky
02 defensive fighting
--
66 self-buffed AC in TWF mode

This is the reason I routinely say that I would not run a cleric/fighter if I am planning to solo. There is a 5+ point difference in AC and the cleric/monk retains TWF the entire time.

And, my recollection is that AC in the mid-60s is significant for most content.

*OP's initial build does not include the dodge feat, unless I missed it somewhere. I've included it simply to give the maximum AC picture for an armored cleric.

**Towershield is available but limits the DEX bonus. A +5 mithral towershield will provide 2 more AC but limits DEX bonus to +4. If using a MTS this way it makes sense to plan the build using DT armor as +4 will be the max DEX bonus anyway. It turns out that when shielded DT armor gives a slight edge in AC. MFP only matters if not using a shield.

mechgouki
11-17-2009, 12:10 PM
Well, Ther's build is kinda impressive.

You think it would be feasible to Splash one fighter to get Tower Shield, even higher AC?

Or Splashing Monk to get Wis bonus to AC?

tihocan
11-17-2009, 12:21 PM
You think it would be feasible to Splash one fighter to get Tower Shield, even higher AC?

Or Splashing Monk to get Wis bonus to AC?
You can do either. Be aware that the monk splash requires you to not wear any armor nor use shields, so it's best on a high dex twf build.
Be also aware that Therigar used in his maths some stuff that won't apply most of the time:
- dodge is unlikely to be taken because clerics are already short on feats, especially if you go melee twf
- defensive fighting or Combat Expertise is not really practical because you'll often have to throw heals, buffs and offensive spells (and... shield clickies if you're twf), which turn it down... and activating it gives a 6s cooldown on spells so better make sure you won't need to cast anything in that timeframe
- getting a chattering ring can take a very long time, expect 20 runs of the Titan (which is not a very popular raid these days) for a significant chance at it
- the Icy Rainment can also be a pita to obtain if you're going the way of the monk splash

Also, if going with Tower shields... expect your DPS to be pretty low.

Quintun
11-17-2009, 02:32 PM
You can do either. Be aware that the monk splash requires you to not wear any armor nor use shields, so it's best on a high dex twf build.
Be also aware that Therigar used in his maths some stuff that won't apply most of the time:
- dodge is unlikely to be taken because clerics are already short on feats, especially if you go melee twf
- defensive fighting or Combat Expertise is not really practical because you'll often have to throw heals, buffs and offensive spells (and... shield clickies if you're twf), which turn it down... and activating it gives a 6s cooldown on spells so better make sure you won't need to cast anything in that timeframe
- getting a chattering ring can take a very long time, expect 20 runs of the Titan (which is not a very popular raid these days) for a significant chance at it
- the Icy Rainment can also be a pita to obtain if you're going the way of the monk splash

Also, if going with Tower shields... expect your DPS to be pretty low.

TWF finesse build is not really a DPS machine either.

tihocan
11-17-2009, 02:34 PM
TWF finesse build is not really a DPS machine either.
I'll second that. Works fine with dual vorpals though... until you run into stuff you can't vorpal ;)

Therigar
11-17-2009, 03:22 PM
The point of a battlecleric is not to be a DPS machine. While I've shown in other places where the melee damage from such builds can easily surpass that of sword and board intimitank types the real bottom line is that melee DPS is never going to match the DPS builds.

Having said that, being a DPS machine isn't the requirement in my mind. Being competent in DPS with the ability to melee first and use offensive spells only when the situation really needs or rewards them is the goal. The build I suggest will be able to maintain a high level of melee combat provided the player does not simply charge into a crowd and start swinging away. To be used effectively, particularly in solo play, the build has to be played with a certain amount of caution and respect for the mobs.

The build is designed to permit melee when that is the best option and offensive spell use when that is best. It retains a reasonable DC so that its offensive spells can be mostly effective -- although it will be less than a pure cleric build. It also retains the ability to serve in a primary healer role when that is what is most advantageous to a party.

But note that it is gear intensive and some of the gear isn't that easy to acquire (+8 bracers, Icy Raiment, Chattering Ring). My main point in posting it is to show that the cleric/monk battlecleric is likely superior to other cleric/whatever builds.

For example, the build I suggest has a higher DC for spells (22 WIS vs 20 WIS), more AC, higher reflex save, higher will save, better to hit numbers and evasion compared to OP's build. In exchange it has fewer HP, fewer spell points, a marginally lower fort save and a higher damage modifier.

The grousing about using the dodge feat is simply personal preferences. If the build swaps Power Attack for Dodge it then has more damage while still retaining the higher AC (even with -1 for the lack of dodge and -2 for not having defensive fighting on). These are preferences that can be quibbled over and provide reasonable options in personalizing the build.

As for questions about splashing fighter or monk -- the build already splashes 2 monk levels. Fighter is not helpful for reasons pointed out by others -- shield use negates the WIS bonus to AC.

Edit: Players should not ignore stat damaging weapons in builds like this. Along with vorpals they provide the mainstay when fighting trash mobs. Damage is still needed to kill things (mod 9 changed the way stat damagers work in a lot of ways) but rendering the mob essentially powerless is still a good option.

Therigar
11-17-2009, 03:35 PM
Therigar used in his maths some stuff that won't apply most of the time:
- dodge is unlikely to be taken because clerics are already short on feats, especially if you go melee twf
- defensive fighting or Combat Expertise is not really practical because you'll often have to throw heals, buffs and offensive spells (and... shield clickies if you're twf), which turn it down... and activating it gives a 6s cooldown on spells so better make sure you won't need to cast anything in that timeframe
- getting a chattering ring can take a very long time, expect 20 runs of the Titan (which is not a very popular raid these days) for a significant chance at it
- the Icy Rainment can also be a pita to obtain if you're going the way of the monk splash

I choose dodge but viable options are power attack and quicken. Battleclerics that actually expect to battle stuff are feat starved and going with a DEX oriented build further starves them because the only genuinely viable option is to pursue the TWF line.

I included defensive fighting and CE in both builds to provide a comparison. DF works better in a build like I would play than in other builds because my first choice is to melee if at all possible. Spell use in my way of playing is for boosting my melee ability and for situations where melee is a poor choice.

I always point out that builds of this type are gear intensive and should not be started by someone who has little intention of farming for the needed equipment. However, if a player has no real intention of farming for gear then a battlecleric isn't the best choice. A pure cleric is the best choice. Nothing prevents a pure cleric from soloing and the mindset of a pure cleric will be more geared towards using spells and avoiding combat.

That mindset seems to slip over into the battlecleric discussion -- which is a mistake IMO. The entire reason to build battleclerics is to battle. If you are not going to do that then don't waste the time building one -- just go pure class. Note that there are towershields that give the towershield feat when equipped. Go farm for one -- no need to splash fighter for that ability. And then spend your feats on traditional cleric feats.

Vua
11-17-2009, 06:55 PM
I'm just wondering how a solo battle cleric that doesn't know the quests is going to get chaosguards, chattering rings, and min II weapons for this mid 50's ac you think he should strive for? We should probably stay in the realm of possibility here.

Therigar
11-17-2009, 07:01 PM
I'm just wondering how a solo battle cleric that doesn't know the quests (so he won't be pulling large amounts of mobs to one area) is going to get chaosguards, chattering rings, and min II weapons for this mid 50's ac you think he should strive for.

Good question and the answer is pretty simple -- very few people solo exclusively. In my case I plan to group as often as possible and reserve soloing only for those times when groups are not available or I'm only online with a limited amount of time -- or, sometimes, when I'm just looking to try something different.

Building a character that can solo well doesn't automatically imply that the character can never group. If I were looking to build a character to only, ever, solo then I probably would be looking at some form of sorcerer build -- very possibly a warforged sorcerer. But, soloing exclusively is never what I am discussing in the context of being able to solo (except in those few posts where that is clearly the OP's intent).

Quintun
11-17-2009, 07:08 PM
Good question and the answer is pretty simple -- very few people solo exclusively. In my case I plan to group as often as possible and reserve soloing only for those times when groups are not available or I'm only online with a limited amount of time -- or, sometimes, when I'm just looking to try something different.

Building a character that can solo well doesn't automatically imply that the character can never group. If I were looking to build a character to only, ever, solo then I probably would be looking at some form of sorcerer build -- very possibly a warforged sorcerer. But, soloing exclusively is never what I am discussing in the context of being able to solo (except in those few posts where that is clearly the OP's intent).

SO a thread titled BATTLE CLERIC FOR SOLO does not qualify as one of those times?

Quintun
11-17-2009, 07:11 PM
The point of a battlecleric is not to be a DPS machine. While I've shown in other places where the melee damage from such builds can easily surpass that of sword and board intimitank types the real bottom line is that melee DPS is never going to match the DPS builds.

Having said that, being a DPS machine isn't the requirement in my mind. Being competent in DPS with the ability to melee first and use offensive spells only when the situation really needs or rewards them is the goal. The build I suggest will be able to maintain a high level of melee combat provided the player does not simply charge into a crowd and start swinging away. To be used effectively, particularly in solo play, the build has to be played with a certain amount of caution and respect for the mobs.

The build is designed to permit melee when that is the best option and offensive spell use when that is best. It retains a reasonable DC so that its offensive spells can be mostly effective -- although it will be less than a pure cleric build. It also retains the ability to serve in a primary healer role when that is what is most advantageous to a party.

But note that it is gear intensive and some of the gear isn't that easy to acquire (+8 bracers, Icy Raiment, Chattering Ring). My main point in posting it is to show that the cleric/monk battlecleric is likely superior to other cleric/whatever builds.

For example, the build I suggest has a higher DC for spells (22 WIS vs 20 WIS), more AC, higher reflex save, higher will save, better to hit numbers and evasion compared to OP's build. In exchange it has fewer HP, fewer spell points, a marginally lower fort save and a higher damage modifier.

The grousing about using the dodge feat is simply personal preferences. If the build swaps Power Attack for Dodge it then has more damage while still retaining the higher AC (even with -1 for the lack of dodge and -2 for not having defensive fighting on). These are preferences that can be quibbled over and provide reasonable options in personalizing the build.

As for questions about splashing fighter or monk -- the build already splashes 2 monk levels. Fighter is not helpful for reasons pointed out by others -- shield use negates the WIS bonus to AC.

Edit: Players should not ignore stat damaging weapons in builds like this. Along with vorpals they provide the mainstay when fighting trash mobs. Damage is still needed to kill things (mod 9 changed the way stat damagers work in a lot of ways) but rendering the mob essentially powerless is still a good option.


So you have shown it can out DPS a non DPS build in the intimitank? WOW that certainly shows the end game DPS ability of a battlecleric. Your math in those posts was biased and you continue to believe in bad math. Fact is you have not proven anything, you have made unverified statements which you believe to be facts. That alone makes them opinion still.

A finesse build should be built around stat damage since actual damage is very limited when you have finesse.

Vua
11-17-2009, 07:19 PM
Good question and the answer is pretty simple -- very few people solo exclusively. In my case I plan to group as often as possible and reserve soloing only for those times when groups are not available or I'm only online with a limited amount of time -- or, sometimes, when I'm just looking to try something different.

Building a character that can solo well doesn't automatically imply that the character can never group. If I were looking to build a character to only, ever, solo then I probably would be looking at some form of sorcerer build -- very possibly a warforged sorcerer. But, soloing exclusively is never what I am discussing in the context of being able to solo (except in those few posts where that is clearly the OP's intent).

I realize, but the OP doesn't say he wants to group, so trying to plan for items that he can't ever get doesn't help the OP. Planning his character how you play isn't going to do him any good.

I also have my doubts about being able to get DT armor, but it's a little more real than min II weapons and a chattering ring.

Quintun
11-17-2009, 07:46 PM
I realize, but the OP doesn't say he wants to group, so trying to plan for items that he can't ever get doesn't help the OP. Planning his character how you play isn't going to do him any good.

I also have my doubts about being able to get DT armor, but it's a little more real than min II weapons and a chattering ring.

You can not solo the shroud? Are you gimp? As a vet I expect you to solo the Titan and the Shroud daily while avoiding raid timers.

Unrealistic and hard to find items are the staple of forum builds. Without them reality would intrude way too often.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 07:52 AM
I realize, but the OP doesn't say he wants to group, so trying to plan for items that he can't ever get doesn't help the OP.

What OP says, what lots of posters say, is they want a build that they can solo with. The question of grouping or not grouping is ambiguous in those posts most of the time.

On occassion the post will say "mostly solo" or "only solo" or "solo when there are no groups" or something else that removes the ambiguity. And, some people will read the thread title and assume that it implicitly removes any question.

However, unless the poster is explicit my assumption is that they do not actually intend to solo 100% of the time. I make that assumption because DDO is not intended to be a single-player video game. Like the PnP game, DDO can be soloed for much of its content but that is not how it was designed.

Keep in mind as well that when I post build information I routinely include caveats so that readers are informed of the difficulties they may encounter. Quintun's point about forum builds making assumptions about equipment and such is a valid one. Without the caveats it becomes very misleading and readers go away thinking, "Oh, this will be easy."


Planning his character how you play isn't going to do him any good.

Well, I don't know how OP plays so can only make suggestions based on what I would do. I have expanded on that in various posts in this thread so I don't feel that I am shortchanging anyone who might try a build such as I've suggested.


I also have my doubts about being able to get DT armor, but it's a little more real than min II weapons and a chattering ring.

If we make suggestions only based on easy to acquire items then we are possibly, probably I would say, led to the conclusion that all of these suggestions thus far are wrong. If we do limit ourselves only to easily obtained items we will need to tell OP that any form of cleric is a horrid choice for soloing and he needs to spend the TP for warforged and run a warforged 18/2 sorcerer/monk (or wizard/rogue) instead.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 08:10 AM
Regarding DPS the issue is really very simple. Damage must be greater than the ability of mobs to regenerate or heal AND must kill the mobs before they can kill your character.

To achieve the first part of this does not require a maximum DPS machine. It does, however, require more damage than you will be able to create with STR as a dump stat in a min/max build. A build that can maintain equivalent or higher AC while TWF and has sufficient STR so that damage overcomes any mob DR will likely out DPS one that has to rely on sword and board to maintian AC.

Achieving the second part of this takes one of two things -- either the character is a pure killing machine with enormous HP OR it has sufficient AC and HP to stand in the mobs while being hit only on 20+ rolls. My experience in this regard is that the first of these has more difficulty soloing than the second. However, either can be successful provided a player chooses their fights carefully and does not allow themselves to be swamped.

mechgouki
11-18-2009, 08:16 AM
I agree with Ther. Although I don't really understand why is there such a disagreement regarding AC.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 08:29 AM
Regarding Quintun's observation of my math I feel it important to point out he routinely claims the math is wrong yet never posts his own to show that I've made errors. Going all the way back to elementary school I learned that we need to work the problem and show where the error is. Since Quintun does not do this it is safe to dismiss his assertions as just sour grapes -- afterall, the math in question disproves his POV.

Unfortunately, Quintun is like many posters in that he attacks what people have to say but offers nothing to show that the others have made mistakes. He nibbles around the periphery pouncing on trivial issues rather than answering the tough questions. I have yet to see him post a complete build, as an example. Yet, he is Johnny on the Spot to criticise the builds of others. And, I've never seen him post his own math to show how anyone elses math is incorrect -- never, ever.

Certainly Quintun is free to post as he does. However, readers should be aware that rhetoric does not equal proof. That is a difficult thing to grasp in our current society where every word of the media is grasped as holy writ. We are conditioned to accept that vigorously stated derision of others invalidates their points. This frees them to offer their own POV as if it were divine inspiration. For example:


So you have shown it can out DPS a non DPS build in the intimitank? WOW that certainly shows the end game DPS ability of a battlecleric. Your math in those posts was biased and you continue to believe in bad math. Fact is you have not proven anything, you have made unverified statements which you believe to be facts. That alone makes them opinion still.

A finesse build should be built around stat damage since actual damage is very limited when you have finesse.

Note how Quintun uses sarcasm and a dismissive tone and then makes a claim regarding bias and "bad math". If we were to take time to go to the thread where this supposed bias and bad math occurs we will see that he never disproves the math or demonstrates the supposed bias. Now that takes effort, more effort than most of us will put into this, and so we are inclined to accept his POV simply because he is so dismissive and obviously convinced of his own rightness -- after all, he must have researched this and have proof otherwise he wouldn't make such claims.

Of course, that provides the perfect segway into Quintun's own opinion -- which we are now ready to accept as fact -- that finesse builds should be based on stat damage.

Unfortunately, mod 9 changed the way stat damage works. If we go to the release notes we will see this. Being reduced to 0 constitution will no longer kill players or monsters. They will be stunned for a short period of time and then behave as if they had been reduced to 0 in any other ability score (automatic criticals, etc.). This change applies to all ability scores - for example, Shadows will no longer kill you if your strength is reduced to 0, though you will continue to spawn a shadow if you die while under the effects of their touch. (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_DDO_Unlimited_Official)

What this means is that stat damage only reduces mobs to an ability score of 1. That is very handy for rendering them impotent but does nothing to kill them. And, note this bit from the release notes as well. Ability damage now regenerates at a rate of 1 point of each ability score per minute. (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_DDO_Unlimited_Official)

What this means is that even if you render a mob impotent for the moment it will eventually regenerate its stats and become a threat again. Assuming that you have not pulled it along far enough so that it rubberbands back to its starting point this means you will eventually be surrounded by a bunch of mobs that you have not killed and that will regenerate and kill you when enough time has expired.

So, I wrote this about stat damaging weapons in this thread:


Players should not ignore stat damaging weapons in builds like this. Along with vorpals they provide the mainstay when fighting trash mobs. Damage is still needed to kill things (mod 9 changed the way stat damagers work in a lot of ways) but rendering the mob essentially powerless is still a good option.

The point is that you have to kill the mobs. At some point that means enough damage to eliminate their HP. And, that is what the build I offered provides. Not coincidentally, it does that even if stat damagers are not used. :D

Therigar
11-18-2009, 09:10 AM
I agree with Ther. Although I don't really understand why is there such a disagreement regarding AC.

Thanks. :)

The amount of AC you have allows you more flexibility in dealing with mobs. It is less difficult to solo because you are at lower risk to be hit by mobs. And that means you can wade into situations a bit more often than if you are being hit regularly.

Take, as example, AC 65. Let's say that mobs hit that AC on 17+. That is 20% of all attacks by mobs causing damage. Now, reduce that AC by 5. The character is now being hit on 12+ -- 45% of the time.

Let's say the mobs do 10 points of damage on every hit. In 20 attacks the 65 AC character is hit 4 times for 40 points of damage. Meanwhile the 60 AC character is hit 9 times for 90 points of damage.

Let's skew this a bit. Let's give the 60 AC character a damage resistance of 10/-. And, let's give the 60 AC character 500 HP while limiting the 65 AC character to only 300.

In 20 attacks the 60 AC character now takes no damage at all because the mobs only ever produce 10 points of damage. This means that a good way to compensate for AC is thru DR. If we were to offer a build that provides this then we could safely drop AC to nothing.

Only, the reality is that mobs at the higher levels do much more than 10 points of damage per hit. If we raise the damage per hit to 20 points we have an interesting situation developing.

AC 65 hit 4 times per 20 attacks with 300 HP takes 80 damage in 20 attacks and dies in 80 attacks having takend 320 points of damage. AC 60 hit 9 times per 20 attacks with 10 DR takes 80 points of damage in 20 attacks and dies in 120 attacks having taken 540 points of damage.

What this shows is that DR combined with HP is a good way to compensate for AC. And, in reality, this is what some of the elite builders have suggested at various times.

What happens if we remove the DR from the 60 AC character. Now 9 hits in 20 attacks causes 180 points of damage. With 500 HP it takes 60 attacks to kill the character while the 65 AC character dies in 40 attacks. This shows that a significant HP difference can also substitute for AC.

But, what happens when there is no significant AC difference? OP's build has 380 HP while my suggestion has 262. Understand that anything after the base numbers can apply to both builds. That is a 120 point difference. At 20 points per hit what happens?

OP's best AC in full defensive mode is 61* while mine is 66. That is close enough to our hypothetical 60 and 65. :D

With 380 HP OP dies on the 19th hit (380/20=19). Meanwhile my build dies on the 14th hit (262/20=13.1). At 9 hits per 20 attacks OP dies in ~43 attacks. Meanwhile my build dies in ~65 attacks. So, here we see that AC does matter**.

Now, soloing is all about making sure that you are not in a spot where you are going to take 40 attacks all at once. And, if you cannot avoid that kind of a situation then you need to go with some AoE spell that will rapidly kill the mobs so they don't get the chance for all those attacks. This is where I would use BB on my battlecleric builds.

So, let's say that we are playing smart and only ever pulling mobs that will get in 5 attacks before we kill them. Either build will be fine. But, in 5 hits the higher AC build is taking about half the damage that the lower AC build is taking. That means less healing and less chance of equipment damage. Ultimately it means that a character spends less resources in maintaining itself. For these reasons it is my opinion that AC does matter.

*OP's build actually will have a 60 AC. In making AC comparisons I gave it the benefit of the dodge feat which OP doesn't actually plan for.

**AC stops mattering if the mobs are hitting the lower AC only on 20s. As long as this isn't the case then AC does make a difference -- and the more frequently the mobs hit the lower AC the more that the difference actually matters in game terms.

tihocan
11-18-2009, 11:34 AM
I agree with Ther. Although I don't really understand why is there such a disagreement regarding AC.
You'll probably understand once you try to get a character with good AC at high level. It's not easy.

Quintun
11-18-2009, 11:41 AM
Regarding Quintun's observation of my math I feel it important to point out he routinely claims the math is wrong yet never posts his own to show that I've made errors. Going all the way back to elementary school I learned that we need to work the problem and show where the error is. Since Quintun does not do this it is safe to dismiss his assertions as just sour grapes -- afterall, the math in question disproves his POV.

Unfortunately, Quintun is like many posters in that he attacks what people have to say but offers nothing to show that the others have made mistakes. He nibbles around the periphery pouncing on trivial issues rather than answering the tough questions. I have yet to see him post a complete build, as an example. Yet, he is Johnny on the Spot to criticise the builds of others. And, I've never seen him post his own math to show how anyone elses math is incorrect -- never, ever.

Certainly Quintun is free to post as he does. However, readers should be aware that rhetoric does not equal proof. That is a difficult thing to grasp in our current society where every word of the media is grasped as holy writ. We are conditioned to accept that vigorously stated derision of others invalidates their points. This frees them to offer their own POV as if it were divine inspiration. For example:



Note how Quintun uses sarcasm and a dismissive tone and then makes a claim regarding bias and "bad math". If we were to take time to go to the thread where this supposed bias and bad math occurs we will see that he never disproves the math or demonstrates the supposed bias. Now that takes effort, more effort than most of us will put into this, and so we are inclined to accept his POV simply because he is so dismissive and obviously convinced of his own rightness -- after all, he must have researched this and have proof otherwise he wouldn't make such claims.

Of course, that provides the perfect segway into Quintun's own opinion -- which we are now ready to accept as fact -- that finesse builds should be based on stat damage.

Unfortunately, mod 9 changed the way stat damage works. If we go to the release notes we will see this. Being reduced to 0 constitution will no longer kill players or monsters. They will be stunned for a short period of time and then behave as if they had been reduced to 0 in any other ability score (automatic criticals, etc.). This change applies to all ability scores - for example, Shadows will no longer kill you if your strength is reduced to 0, though you will continue to spawn a shadow if you die while under the effects of their touch. (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_DDO_Unlimited_Official)

What this means is that stat damage only reduces mobs to an ability score of 1. That is very handy for rendering them impotent but does nothing to kill them. And, note this bit from the release notes as well. Ability damage now regenerates at a rate of 1 point of each ability score per minute. (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_DDO_Unlimited_Official)

What this means is that even if you render a mob impotent for the moment it will eventually regenerate its stats and become a threat again. Assuming that you have not pulled it along far enough so that it rubberbands back to its starting point this means you will eventually be surrounded by a bunch of mobs that you have not killed and that will regenerate and kill you when enough time has expired.

So, I wrote this about stat damaging weapons in this thread:



The point is that you have to kill the mobs. At some point that means enough damage to eliminate their HP. And, that is what the build I offered provides. Not coincidentally, it does that even if stat damagers are not used. :D

SO you can render a mob impotent and still not kill it in a minute? Seriously how little DPS can you do? Once again you have proven you do not understand the basics of the game. You do understand what automatical criticals are right? Mobs reduced to ZERO are STUNNED for a short period of time granting AUTOMATIC CRITICALS. Even your gimp builds should be able to kill any mob you have rendered helpless. How does this do nothing to kill them?

Therigar you constantly prove your understanding of game mechanics is weak at best. Instead of an entire wall of text attempting to belittle me, maybe try reading the WIKI and game update notes. As I said before I have built characters which seemed good and then failed in the higher levels, I speak from experience and learned the hard way.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 01:12 PM
I don't know, can you kill an impotent mob in less than a minute? How many monsters are actually around you? Are you having to reduce them to near nothing before going back to deal with the previous ones?

In small encounters it isn't an issue. What becomes an issue is those encounters where there are 10 or more mobs that you need to deal with all at the same time. Can you render them all impotent and kill them all before you are killed yourself?

With a high AC, high evasion, adequate DPS build the answer is always going to be yes. With a low AC, no evasion, adequate DPS build the answer is often going to be no.

As I say, you have the knack for picking around the perimeter without really dealing with the real issue. Thanks for making that abundantly clear. :D

mechgouki
11-18-2009, 01:46 PM
You'll probably understand once you try to get a character with good AC at high level. It's not easy.

I see. I understand that. I guess I'll sit this one out. I'm not that experienced yet.

Quintun
11-18-2009, 02:46 PM
I don't know, can you kill an impotent mob in less than a minute? How many monsters are actually around you? Are you having to reduce them to near nothing before going back to deal with the previous ones?

In small encounters it isn't an issue. What becomes an issue is those encounters where there are 10 or more mobs that you need to deal with all at the same time. Can you render them all impotent and kill them all before you are killed yourself?

With a high AC, high evasion, adequate DPS build the answer is always going to be yes. With a low AC, no evasion, adequate DPS build the answer is often going to be no.

As I say, you have the knack for picking around the perimeter without really dealing with the real issue. Thanks for making that abundantly clear. :D

So you are saying that a mob you have rendered helpless will not be killed because of the other mobs? You actually stop attacking the one you can kill to go after others? You continue to not understand basics. You are getting AUTO CRITICALS any build, even yours, will kill any mob that can be rendered helpless and AUTO CRITICALED in less than the minute it takes to get the stat back to a 1. Seriously just stop.

The answer is not always yes, if it was nothing in the game would require groups. The more you post, the more we know you speak out of an orifice that is not your mouth.

You should SAY less and LEARN more. You might actually be right some day. But I doubt you will bother to try.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 02:48 PM
I see. I understand that. I guess I'll sit this one out. I'm not that experienced yet.

LOL. :D

Tihocan does make a good point. It is easy to make a character with low AC and hard to make one with high AC. Low AC takes no effort. Just slap on the best armor your character class permits, make sure you have enough DEX to get the corresponding maximum DEX bonus and, if permitted, grab the largest shield you are allowed to use.

High AC takes work and planning and it requires you to put in effort to obtain some relatively hard to acquire items. These can be hard to acquire because they have low drop rates or because they are only found in unpopular quests -- or both. In some cases they require crafting so not only must you first obtain the item you then have to gather the appropriate crafting material.

The vast majority of players give up and settle instead for the low AC model. That sends them looking for solutions when they end up taking huge damage in quests and drives everything from "a proper cleric does this" to "a proper rogue does that" to "a proper <insert class of choice> does some other thing." People begin to rely on other things to mitigate damage.

Some of those things are DR and HP. Since HP is easiest it is the (currently) most popular approach.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 03:38 PM
So you are saying that a mob you have rendered helpless will not be killed because of the other mobs? You actually stop attacking the one you can kill to go after others?

This is just hilarious.

We are discussing builds meant to solo. Mob, unfortunately, is used in MMO discussions to mean both a single opponent and also multiple opponents. If we talk about just one monster then obviously a player kills that one before moving on.

The problem comes in, as I explained once already, when there is more than one monster. It is all well and good to focus on one out of the entire crowd. But, while you do that the others are all attacking you. And, because there is nobody else with you there is nothing to pull aggro away from you.

What seems to be your plan is to render one enemy immobile and then kill it thru autocriticals while you let the others beat on you. And, you recommend doing this while having a low AC so that more of those attacks hit you and do damage.

How many attacks does it take for you to drop a single enemy's CON to 1? If you do not have Wounding of Puncturing weapons (and let's face it, these are hard to obtain) then you will be using simple puncturing weapons. If the enemy has an 8 CON it will take 7 hits for it to drop to 1 and your autocriticals to kick in.

Let's be very generous and give you those 7 attacks in a single attack sequence. And, let's limit the mobs to only 2 attacks each against you during that time. We cannot forget that while you are knocking down the CON of the monster in front of you it is also making its attacks against you.

Back to the discussion on AC and hits. With a low AC if you are being hit rougly half the time the monster in front of you has hit you once. Every other monster in that group has also hit you once during the round of attacks. If there are 8 monsters attacking you then you were hit 8 times. If each monster does just 20 points of damage you took 160 points of damage while you knocked the 1 enemy to your front down to 1 CON.

Now, you suggest that you should stick with that 1 enemy in front of you during the next combat round. It is disabled for 1 minute. But you are going to kill it now. So let's just say you'll do that half way thru the new combat round. At that point you target a new monster and start to knock its CON down to 1.

All this time the other 7 monsters are hitting you for another 140 points of damage. You have taken 300 points of damage in 2 combat rounds while killing 1 monster and almost incapacitating another. And that makes sense to you.

A DPS oriented character will kill each monster in 1 to 3 hits. If they have 7 attacks in the combat round they will have killed off, potentially, every monster in the group.

I just did this with my L9 dwarven fighter soloing through most of Stormcleave normal last night. There was a guld group that broke up after finishing their own Stormcleave run that joined in somewhere after the halfway point. High DPS and high HP with only marginal AC is an effective counter to AC.

However, unless a player really works at it they won't have a high DPS battlecleric character. We've gone over that previously. But, the point of having a battlecleric is to combine acceptable DPS with the spell casting abilities of being a cleric.

What some people will do in the situation where they face multiple monsters is use their AoE spells. IMO that is a waste of spell points if you could just as successfully melee the mobs.

If the build cannot take on 8 to 10 monsters at the same time then it should not be rolled as a battlecleric. That is my take on things. It is why I continue to say that the first choice should be battle and that cleric should only be used when it is really necessary.

If a player is going to rely on the spell casting then they should not waste the time making a battlecleric -- they should just go with a pure cleric build. It isn't even worth the effort to splash rogue or monk for evasion because evasion only works in light or no armor and then only when not heavily encumbered. A player might as well go pure cleric planning to wear ordinary full plate (+5 adamantine if possible).

Just spam maximized/empowered/extended/heightened blade barriers and hope you don't get caught or hit by anything. Anyone have an idea how much mana is used for a blade barrier like that? Do you want to quicken it as well so that it cannot be interrupted when you are being hit? So, how long before you run out of mana?

A battlecleric, IMO, should be killing stuff through melee and ranged combat whenever possible and pulling out their spells only in emergencies. That means being able to do more than just stat damage. But, even if relying on stat damage the bottom line is that you have to neutralize each enemy before you are killed yourself.

And, you don't always have the luxury of encountering only 1 mob at a time -- in many, many cases (most I would say) you will fight more. In that case you are making a mistake if you let the healthy ones beat on you while you stat damage and critical for kills one mob at a time.

So, first off my build isn't getting hit except on natural 20's and second the answer is yes -- if I am relying on stat damage to neutralize a mob I will move on to the next one in the group before going back to kill the ones I've knocked down to harmless. I can do that all well within a minute and then clean up as needed. But, and this is the third point, by having adequate DPS I don't have to worry about whether I've stat damaged them to harmless or not because I am often just killing them outright.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 03:48 PM
The answer is not always yes, if it was nothing in the game would require groups.

DDO is no longer a group focused game. It stopped being that when the decision was made to offer hirelings. With hirelings it is possible to do the majority of the game's content without needing a second, human player. Combine this with the ability of many machines to dual-box and you suddenly had the ability to form 4 character groups while needing only 1 player.

DDO:EU changed this even more. The introduction of the Turbine Store and the ability to buy hirelings there means that you can fill an entire groups with no other human players at all. It has become, effectively, a solo focused game.

IMO that is unfortunate because D&D is meant to be a social event and group focused. However, from a purely financial POV it makes good sense.

What we have now is a game where it is possible to solo much of the content without ever using a hireling and to solo almost all of the rest of the content with hirelings. The huge increase in posts asking about solo capable characters supports this perception -- which is a reality now because of the changes in the game.

And, I need to mention dungeon scaling which also benefits solo players. If a person is willing to avoid elite content the entire scope of the game has shifted to support soloing.

Quintun
11-18-2009, 04:48 PM
This is just hilarious.

We are discussing builds meant to solo. Mob, unfortunately, is used in MMO discussions to mean both a single opponent and also multiple opponents. If we talk about just one monster then obviously a player kills that one before moving on.

The problem comes in, as I explained once already, when there is more than one monster. It is all well and good to focus on one out of the entire crowd. But, while you do that the others are all attacking you. And, because there is nobody else with you there is nothing to pull aggro away from you.

What seems to be your plan is to render one enemy immobile and then kill it thru autocriticals while you let the others beat on you. And, you recommend doing this while having a low AC so that more of those attacks hit you and do damage.

How many attacks does it take for you to drop a single enemy's CON to 1? If you do not have Wounding of Puncturing weapons (and let's face it, these are hard to obtain) then you will be using simple puncturing weapons. If the enemy has an 8 CON it will take 7 hits for it to drop to 1 and your autocriticals to kick in.

Let's be very generous and give you those 7 attacks in a single attack sequence. And, let's limit the mobs to only 2 attacks each against you during that time. We cannot forget that while you are knocking down the CON of the monster in front of you it is also making its attacks against you.

Back to the discussion on AC and hits. With a low AC if you are being hit rougly half the time the monster in front of you has hit you once. Every other monster in that group has also hit you once during the round of attacks. If there are 8 monsters attacking you then you were hit 8 times. If each monster does just 20 points of damage you took 160 points of damage while you knocked the 1 enemy to your front down to 1 CON.

Now, you suggest that you should stick with that 1 enemy in front of you during the next combat round. It is disabled for 1 minute. But you are going to kill it now. So let's just say you'll do that half way thru the new combat round. At that point you target a new monster and start to knock its CON down to 1.

All this time the other 7 monsters are hitting you for another 140 points of damage. You have taken 300 points of damage in 2 combat rounds while killing 1 monster and almost incapacitating another. And that makes sense to you.

A DPS oriented character will kill each monster in 1 to 3 hits. If they have 7 attacks in the combat round they will have killed off, potentially, every monster in the group.

I just did this with my L9 dwarven fighter soloing through most of Stormcleave normal last night. There was a guld group that broke up after finishing their own Stormcleave run that joined in somewhere after the halfway point. High DPS and high HP with only marginal AC is an effective counter to AC.

However, unless a player really works at it they won't have a high DPS battlecleric character. We've gone over that previously. But, the point of having a battlecleric is to combine acceptable DPS with the spell casting abilities of being a cleric.

What some people will do in the situation where they face multiple monsters is use their AoE spells. IMO that is a waste of spell points if you could just as successfully melee the mobs.

If the build cannot take on 8 to 10 monsters at the same time then it should not be rolled as a battlecleric. That is my take on things. It is why I continue to say that the first choice should be battle and that cleric should only be used when it is really necessary.

If a player is going to rely on the spell casting then they should not waste the time making a battlecleric -- they should just go with a pure cleric build. It isn't even worth the effort to splash rogue or monk for evasion because evasion only works in light or no armor and then only when not heavily encumbered. A player might as well go pure cleric planning to wear ordinary full plate (+5 adamantine if possible).

Just spam maximized/empowered/extended/heightened blade barriers and hope you don't get caught or hit by anything. Anyone have an idea how much mana is used for a blade barrier like that? Do you want to quicken it as well so that it cannot be interrupted when you are being hit? So, how long before you run out of mana?

A battlecleric, IMO, should be killing stuff through melee and ranged combat whenever possible and pulling out their spells only in emergencies. That means being able to do more than just stat damage. But, even if relying on stat damage the bottom line is that you have to neutralize each enemy before you are killed yourself.

And, you don't always have the luxury of encountering only 1 mob at a time -- in many, many cases (most I would say) you will fight more. In that case you are making a mistake if you let the healthy ones beat on you while you stat damage and critical for kills one mob at a time.

So, first off my build isn't getting hit except on natural 20's and second the answer is yes -- if I am relying on stat damage to neutralize a mob I will move on to the next one in the group before going back to kill the ones I've knocked down to harmless. I can do that all well within a minute and then clean up as needed. But, and this is the third point, by having adequate DPS I don't have to worry about whether I've stat damaged them to harmless or not because I am often just killing them outright.

Nevermind. You wall of text to avoid the fact you know nearly nothing. Verbosity does not and never will replace simple knowledge.

If your AC is as awesome as you claim the healthy MOBS will not be beating on you. It is amazing how many directions you go in when the inaccuracies and outright falsehoods of your claims becomes obvious.

EDIT: You have obviously not been out to the new quests. You can easily end up stat damaging with a wounder before you could kill them any other way. That is with a dual weilding Barbarian built for DPS. Your piddling DPS builds will never kill anything out there without some kind of stat damage. You simply will not be killing anything melee with a 29 DPS. Once you get there you may notice how little what you say holds true.

Vua
11-18-2009, 04:50 PM
WALL OF TEXT.

Can you please try and make your point in less sentences. I'm sorry but everything you post is a novel. Now to my point. Yes you should be killing one mob at a time in melee. The less mobs you have hitting you the less damage you take. Switching from one mob to the next without killing either does nothing to help your situation regardless of what your AC is. And why wouldn't you use an AOE spell to kill multiple mobs at once? This isn't a waste of spell points, it's a great use of them. Kill them all without getting hit and it's worth it. You don't get bonus XP for getting to shrines with 3/4 of your spell points.

I'm sorry but you're logic is just all over the place and I can't follow it. If you aren't going to use your spell points as a cleric for anything other than melee buffs and healing, roll a class that can do real DPS, get a higher AC without giving up so much and can heal itself when necessary.

Quintun
11-18-2009, 04:53 PM
Can you please try and make your point in less sentences. I'm sorry but everything you post is a novel. Now to my point. Yes you should be killing one mob at a time in melee. The less mobs you have hitting you the less damage you take. Switching from one mob to the next without killing either does nothing to help your situation regardless of what your AC is. And why wouldn't you use an AOE spell to kill multiple mobs at once? This isn't a waste of spell points, it's a great use of them. Kill them all without getting hit and it's worth it. You don't get bonus XP for getting to shrines with 3/4 of your spell points.

I'm sorry but you're logic is just all over the place and I can't follow it. If you aren't going to use your spell points as a cleric for anything other than melee buffs and healing, roll a class that can do real DPS, get a higher AC without giving up so much and can heal itself when necessary.

29 DPS is plenty and with never used SP you get a bonus at the end of a quest.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 06:17 PM
EDIT: You have obviously not been out to the new quests. You can easily end up stat damaging with a wounder before you could kill them any other way.

I'm fairly certain that we are not worried at all about a battlecleric's ability to solo the newest content. Great job however in once again taking us to an area that has nothing to do with the present discussion.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 06:19 PM
Can you please try and make your point in less sentences. I'm sorry but everything you post is a novel. Now to my point. Yes you should be killing one mob at a time in melee. The less mobs you have hitting you the less damage you take. Switching from one mob to the next without killing either does nothing to help your situation regardless of what your AC is. And why wouldn't you use an AOE spell to kill multiple mobs at once? This isn't a waste of spell points, it's a great use of them. Kill them all without getting hit and it's worth it. You don't get bonus XP for getting to shrines with 3/4 of your spell points.

I'm sorry but you're logic is just all over the place and I can't follow it. If you aren't going to use your spell points as a cleric for anything other than melee buffs and healing, roll a class that can do real DPS, get a higher AC without giving up so much and can heal itself when necessary.

Very few words:

Don't use spell points for trivial sized mobs. Kill them with melee instead. Defining trivial depends on your ability to stand in the midst of them and melee.

More AC so hit fewer times means larger mobs. This equals more kills via melee and less via mana. This then is more mana efficient causing mana to last longer.

Quintun
11-18-2009, 07:02 PM
I'm fairly certain that we are not worried at all about a battlecleric's ability to solo the newest content. Great job however in once again taking us to an area that has nothing to do with the present discussion.

We are discussing the merits of your imaginary inability to kill a helpless mob be it solo or grouped. You go off topic to the OP from the start and now you use it as an excuse to ignore more of your failures? Well done, way to be of no service to anyone. Your advice is based off of not knowing the game mechanics or knowledge of the quests past the shroud. Maybe a little more learning would be the way to go, or continue to flounder in futility.

Quintun
11-18-2009, 07:08 PM
Very few words:

Don't use spell points for trivial sized mobs. Kill them with melee instead. Defining trivial depends on your ability to stand in the midst of them and melee.

More AC so hit fewer times means larger mobs. This equals more kills via melee and less via mana. This then is more mana efficient causing mana to last longer.

Do you actually play anything that has this ability? It seems to me you base a lot of things on theory with no practical knowledge of the real game and situations. You use outdated information(such as BAB still having anything to do with number of attacks at higher levels) and seem to think that a solo cleric will be able to get Icy Raiments but will not go to Amarath.

I would think a good solo battlecleric could do the newest content if he can solo for Icy Raiments and chattering rings. Are you noticing the flaws in your advice yet? Or will you continue to wall of text ignore your own mistakes?

Therigar
11-18-2009, 07:23 PM
Well, this thread is vearing completely off into another of Quintun's ceaseless attacks.

1. I am not the one who suggests that a player solo exclusively. The questions of how to obtain hard to acquire gear has already been addressed.

2. I am not off topic. OP asked for soloable battlecleric advice. I offered that while noting that the most survivable battlecleric build will be cleric/monk.

3. I have explained a bit about how I would solo and why I prefer to melee as much as possible.

4. That does not preclude spell use but simply means that using mana when the character could melee instead is, IMO, a waste of mana.

5. I have illustrated how more AC does matter.

6. I have posted a build that has several advantages over OP's provided the player is willing to work for the high end gear.

7. I have provided math and build to support my POV.

You, OTOH, are simply argumentative. You have yet to post a build that is even potentially better than what I offer.

Until you can do that I remain of the belief that it is you who is all talk.

Quintun
11-18-2009, 07:37 PM
Well, this thread is vearing completely off into another of Quintun's ceaseless attacks.

1. I am not the one who suggests that a player solo exclusively. The questions of how to obtain hard to acquire gear has already been addressed.

2. I am not off topic. OP asked for soloable battlecleric advice. I offered that while noting that the most survivable battlecleric build will be cleric/monk.

3. I have explained a bit about how I would solo and why I prefer to melee as much as possible.

4. That does not preclude spell use but simply means that using mana when the character could melee instead is, IMO, a waste of mana.

5. I have illustrated how more AC does matter.

6. I have posted a build that has several advantages over OP's provided the player is willing to work for the high end gear.

7. I have provided math and build to support my POV.

You, OTOH, are simply argumentative. You have yet to post a build that is even potentially better than what I offer.

Until you can do that I remain of the belief that it is you who is all talk.

The problem is your advice is based on theory and not in game knowledge. You are not helping when you post fantasy. Give the OP solid reality and lose the Therigar loves off the wall build BS for once.

How do you expect a player to work for high end gear solo? Try a build that uses less gear and is actually based in reality.

You speak of ceaseless attacks yet in other threads you feel the need to point out how you never agree with me. Seriously look in the mirror before playing the victim. Your posts are attack after attack on me since the first time we disagreed. If you fail to see your own lack of civility then you need help.

Vua
11-18-2009, 07:40 PM
Very few words:

Don't use spell points for trivial sized mobs. Kill them with melee instead. Defining trivial depends on your ability to stand in the midst of them and melee.

More AC so hit fewer times means larger mobs. This equals more kills via melee and less via mana. This then is more mana efficient causing mana to last longer.

I never said trivial sized. I was referring to your 8-10 mob example. Why sit there and melee them when you could cast 1 spell to kill all 8 or 10. It will most likely cost you less mana than any healing you would need afterwards, not to mention all the melee buffs you had to cast on yourself. Being in melee is not necessarily more mana efficient than casting spells, especially for people that know the quests well and can gather large groups of mobs together. It may be more fun for you but it isn't necessarily more mana efficient.

Even with an untouchable AC you are still hit on a 20, not to mention grazing hits. That means with 10 mobs around you, you are being hit once for full damage every other round on average. Throw in some grazing hit and it's worse. So after buffing up, and getting hit a few times you have to heal. Is that necessarily more mana efficient than dropping one blade barrier and dragging them all through it?

Quintun
11-18-2009, 07:59 PM
I never said trivial sized. I was referring to your 8-10 mob example. Why sit there and melee them when you could cast 1 spell to kill all 8 or 10. It will most likely cost you less mana than any healing you would need afterwards, not to mention all the melee buffs you had to cast on yourself. Being in melee is not necessarily more mana efficient than casting spells, especially for people that know the quests well and can gather large groups of mobs together. It may be more fun for you but it isn't necessarily more mana efficient.

Even with an untouchable AC you are still hit on a 20, not to mention grazing hits. That means with 10 mobs around you, you are being hit once for full damage every other round on average. Throw in some grazing hit and it's worse. So after buffing up, and getting hit a few times you have to heal. Is that necessarily more mana efficient than dropping one blade barrier and dragging them all through it?

I find it unhelpful to build or give advice to build towards a goal no solo battlecleric will hit. Untouchable AC beyond the early levels is not reality for a solo player. The items needed either come from raids or loot runs that are not being soloed by this build.

The untouchable AC is not going to happen unless the OP is running quest 5 levels below him, in which case the best use of resources is likely to be gather em up, Blade Barrier and watch em die. No heal, no buff dead for less SP. Some just refuse to see reality. I understand it is a fantasy game but builds in the game need some reality to be of use.

We can make up all the scenarios we want and hurl insults but the truth is fantasy builds and equipment no solo player is getting have no business being added in this thread.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 09:31 PM
I find it unhelpful to build or give advice to build towards a goal no solo battlecleric will hit.

Since you've never posted a build for people to evaluate I gather that everything you have to offer is unhelpful. If you have a helpful build then bust out the character builder, enter the information, and post it for others to evaluate. Be sure to do what others do -- post the gear and goal state for HP, AC, etc.

Otherwise spare us.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 09:37 PM
I never said trivial sized. I was referring to your 8-10 mob example. Why sit there and melee them when you could cast 1 spell to kill all 8 or 10. It will most likely cost you less mana than any healing you would need afterwards, not to mention all the melee buffs you had to cast on yourself. Being in melee is not necessarily more mana efficient than casting spells, especially for people that know the quests well and can gather large groups of mobs together. It may be more fun for you but it isn't necessarily more mana efficient.

Even with an untouchable AC you are still hit on a 20, not to mention grazing hits. That means with 10 mobs around you, you are being hit once for full damage every other round on average. Throw in some grazing hit and it's worse. So after buffing up, and getting hit a few times you have to heal. Is that necessarily more mana efficient than dropping one blade barrier and dragging them all through it?

I suppose that it is a matter of how you handle things. I find that using mana to heal is not necessary. Although Quintun has elsewhere said that wands don't get much use at higher levels I find that using wands is very important to preserving mana.

In most cases with trash mobs it is not necessary to buff using mana. Now, that may not be the case in the new content or on epic but on normal setting thru mod 8 on the quests that I would typically solo it is true.

A group of 8 or 10 can be killed efficiently by meleeing them and all of the healing, etc. can be addressed with wand use. So it isn't necessary to use mana.

A group of 8-10 may be large in your assessment. It isn't in mine and so I would prefer to melee rather than use mana. The important thing is to be able to do either depending on the quest or the need.

Quintun
11-18-2009, 09:45 PM
Since you've never posted a build for people to evaluate I gather that everything you have to offer is unhelpful. If you have a helpful build then bust out the character builder, enter the information, and post it for others to evaluate. Be sure to do what others do -- post the gear and goal state for HP, AC, etc.

Otherwise spare us.

Spare you? You think too much of yourself and your gimps.

Do us all a favor and spare the wall of text with expert knowledge from 4 mods ago. You show off the lack of current game knowledge in nearly all your posts. You fool no one.

Quintun
11-18-2009, 09:47 PM
I suppose that it is a matter of how you handle things. I find that using mana to heal is not necessary. Although Quintun has elsewhere said that wands don't get much use at higher levels I find that using wands is very important to preserving mana.

In most cases with trash mobs it is not necessary to buff using mana. Now, that may not be the case in the new content or on epic but on normal setting thru mod 8 on the quests that I would typically solo it is true.

A group of 8 or 10 can be killed efficiently by meleeing them and all of the healing, etc. can be addressed with wand use. So it isn't necessary to use mana.

A group of 8-10 may be large in your assessment. It isn't in mine and so I would prefer to melee rather than use mana. The important thing is to be able to do either depending on the quest or the need.

You bring my name up way too often. I sincerely hope when you think of me you keep both hands on the keyboard.

Edit: We have finally hit on the truth. You give advice without having played the new content, yet you continue to argue with those who clearly have and know more than you. Thank you for finally admitting you are a year behind with knowledge.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 09:52 PM
The problem is your advice is based on theory and not in game knowledge.

I have been playing since '06. I know you claim to have been playing since early '06 but we have no proof of that. My postings are not theory. They are based on what I have been able to do with various characters.

Those characters are often much different from what you seem to think is good. In a discussion about a base 8 STR ranger the final observations were that given my experience I could make the build work. The same holds true for my original cleric/paladin/monk that you took exception to. The build does work and it works because I have been playing for a very long time.

I know that the OP's original build will not be successful as a soloing battlecleric. It will run into a brick wall once its AC peaks at around 45 or less. It does not have massive HP to compensate, it does not have DR and it does not have enough WIS for the DCs needed on its spells. Its saving throws are only just marginal and its reflex save in particular is horrid. Once it runs into spell casting mobs it is going to die miserably and regularly.

I offered something that will be more successful in the long run. No, OP won't be able to solo exclusively. Unlike you I never read that to be a prerequisite. Yes, it is a gear intensive build. So what? The game is full of people who are constantly running for the best gear.

Meanwhile you have given OP nothing. You spend your time arguing with me but you offer nothing to the OP to help him out with what is, in reality, a very unusable build if his goal is substantial or even exclusive soloing.

You may be incapable of doing anything other than criticising others. But, if you really have so much more knowledge then demonstrate it by posting a build that OP can use and that doesn't have the flaws that his build has.

I've said this many times -- I don't think you can do that. I think you are all talk and no action -- that you are incapable of producing a workable build.

Last point. If OP is intent on soloing exclusively then I will restate that I would recommend a WF sorcerer/monk or wizard/rogue. Both are much more effective at soloing exclusively than any battlecleric build.

Quintun
11-18-2009, 09:59 PM
I have been playing since '06. I know you claim to have been playing since early '06 but we have no proof of that. My postings are not theory. They are based on what I have been able to do with various characters.

Those characters are often much different from what you seem to think is good. In a discussion about a base 8 STR ranger the final observations were that given my experience I could make the build work. The same holds true for my original cleric/paladin/monk that you took exception to. The build does work and it works because I have been playing for a very long time.

I know that the OP's original build will not be successful as a soloing battlecleric. It will run into a brick wall once its AC peaks at around 45 or less. It does not have massive HP to compensate, it does not have DR and it does not have enough WIS for the DCs needed on its spells. Its saving throws are only just marginal and its reflex save in particular is horrid. Once it runs into spell casting mobs it is going to die miserably and regularly.

I offered something that will be more successful in the long run. No, OP won't be able to solo exclusively. Unlike you I never read that to be a prerequisite. Yes, it is a gear intensive build. So what? The game is full of people who are constantly running for the best gear.

Meanwhile you have given OP nothing. You spend your time arguing with me but you offer nothing to the OP to help him out with what is, in reality, a very unusable build if his goal is substantial or even exclusive soloing.

You may be incapable of doing anything other than criticising others. But, if you really have so much more knowledge then demonstrate it by posting a build that OP can use and that doesn't have the flaws that his build has.

I've said this many times -- I don't think you can do that. I think you are all talk and no action -- that you are incapable of producing a workable build.

Last point. If OP is intent on soloing exclusively then I will restate that I would recommend a WF sorcerer/monk or wizard/rogue. Both are much more effective at soloing exclusively than any battlecleric build.


Are you for real? You think constantly asking for a build will make me go out and do what you want? I could care less if you believe I played before you or not. The fact is you make mistake after mistake in knowing the current game and all you do is try to attack my time in game? Pathetic is the word that comes to mind.

All of your builds will hit the same brick wall at end game, but the truth is you have not been there so you have no clue. You argue like you have played the new quests but you admit you have not. Now which one of us lives in a fantasy. I give you two guesses and Quintun is not the right answer.

I created workable builds while you rolling gimp after gimp. I had the first workable Clogue on Tharashk server. At that time there was a grand total of 4 Clogues on server and we all knew eachother and discussed the build. I would not waste my time actually posting a build to teach you anything. You can pretend all you want that it makes you superior.

Angelus_dead
11-18-2009, 10:00 PM
I also have my doubts about being able to get DT armor, but it's a little more real than min II weapons and a chattering ring.
DT armor is a guaranteed item from one completion of Stealer of Souls (and you don't even need to kill the final boss to get it). That is something that's possible to solo, although it has several very difficult points.

But it's highly probable he could join a group of 6 for just long enough to get it, which is entirely different from repeatedly joining a group of 12 every 3 days until he gets Titan and Shroud drops.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 10:03 PM
We have finally hit on the truth. You give advice without having played the new content, yet you continue to argue with those who clearly have and know more than you. Thank you for finally admitting you are a year behind with knowledge.

I admit no such thing. The newest content is out of reach of most new players. It is out of reach of most experienced players unless they group regularly.

I made a deliberate choice to move to Cannith when DDO:EU went live. I am not a power gamer so I did not play 24/7 to get my character up to L20. Running the newest content is a goal but it is not a god to be worshiped. When Turbine announced Orien I moved there because I could get character names that I was not able to get on other servers.

My dismissive attitude about certain aspects of the game is based entirely on my belief that it really doesn't matter. Changes to BAB, as an example, don't really impact significantly. Instead of more attacks per round higher level characters now attack faster. OK. Isn't that substantially the same thing. The key change is one of animation not of actual effect. So I am dismissive of the changes and, honestly, don't generally pay them a lot of attention.

That doesn't mean that I don't know the game. It doesn't mean that I have not played extensively. It only means that I am running the content that 90% of the players are running.

If anything that makes my advice more meaningful and more valuable. However, I am still waiting for you to post a better build for us to evaluate. Until you do I think we'll end this little discussion as it serves no purpose.

I have routinely put up. Now it is your turn. Put up or shut up.

Angelus_dead
11-18-2009, 10:05 PM
Very few words:
Don't use spell points for trivial sized mobs. Kill them with melee instead. Defining trivial depends on your ability to stand in the midst of them and melee.
More AC so hit fewer times means larger mobs. This equals more kills via melee and less via mana. This then is more mana efficient causing mana to last longer.
Here's even fewer words:
Torc Of Prince Rayum De.

One more hint:
Learn what the word "mob" means.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 10:06 PM
DT armor is a guaranteed item from one completion of Stealer of Souls (and you don't even need to kill the final boss to get it). That is something that's possible to solo, although it has several very difficult points.

But it's highly probable he could join a group of 6 for just long enough to get it, which is entirely different from repeatedly joining a group of 12 every 3 days until he gets Titan and Shroud drops.

Agreed. The question isn't ease it is whether a player wants the better gear. And, FWIW, I don't see any lack of Subterrain runs (that is what you intended to say I think rather than Shroud). Note lastly that I give the Chattering Ring to both builds in making comparisons. So, the delta remains the same whether we have the ring or not.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 10:07 PM
Here's even fewer words:
Torc Of Prince Rayum De.

Yes, and this is easier to obtain and meaningful throughout the character's development in just what way?

Quintun
11-18-2009, 10:08 PM
I admit no such thing. The newest content is out of reach of most new players. It is out of reach of most experienced players unless they group regularly.

I made a deliberate choice to move to Cannith when DDO:EU went live. I am not a power gamer so I did not play 24/7 to get my character up to L20. Running the newest content is a goal but it is not a god to be worshiped. When Turbine announced Orien I moved there because I could get character names that I was not able to get on other servers.

My dismissive attitude about certain aspects of the game is based entirely on my belief that it really doesn't matter. Changes to BAB, as an example, don't really impact significantly. Instead of more attacks per round higher level characters now attack faster. OK. Isn't that substantially the same thing. The key change is one of animation not of actual effect. So I am dismissive of the changes and, honestly, don't generally pay them a lot of attention.

That doesn't mean that I don't know the game. It doesn't mean that I have not played extensively. It only means that I am running the content that 90% of the players are running.

If anything that makes my advice more meaningful and more valuable. However, I am still waiting for you to post a better build for us to evaluate. Until you do I think we'll end this little discussion as it serves no purpose.

I have routinely put up. Now it is your turn. Put up or shut up.

You really are amusing. You have put up nothing. You put up builds people who play end game have told you are not working and you pretend your advice is somehow more valuable? When people talk end game and you argue that your builds work there, yet you clearly are not there you are a liar. It seems you get caught in a mistake nearly every post.

If you do not pay the changes a lot of attention how can anyone believe the rest of your claims? You have just shredded the little credibility you had.

The new content is out of reach of most experienced players? Do you read your posts at all? Therigar we are done, you have been proven to be nothing but a windbag.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 10:09 PM
One more hint:
Learn what the word "mob" means.

Mob as used in these forums refers to one or more of the creatures we have to kill. That is its standard meaning in MMOs. If you think it means something else then please feel free to enlighten us.

Quintun
11-18-2009, 10:10 PM
Here's even fewer words:
Torc Of Prince Rayum De.

One more hint:
Learn what the word "mob" means.

You may want to just link dictionary.com to him. He needs a lot of help.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 10:13 PM
You really are amusing. You have put up nothing. You put up builds people who play end game have told you are not working and you pretend your advice is somehow more valuable? When people talk end game and you argue that your builds work there, yet you clearly are not there you are a liar. It seems you get caught in a mistake nearly every post.

If you do not pay the changes a lot of attention how can anyone believe the rest of your claims? You have just shredded the little credibility you had.

The new content is out of reach of most experienced players? Do you read your posts at all? Therigar we are done, you have been proven to be nothing but a windbag.

Sorry. I put up a build. You did not. I put up. You have not.

The changes are not overly significant. If you think they are then demonstrate how and why.

I said end game is out of reach of most experienced players unless they group. You misrepresent what I said.

You are the one with the 09 join date pretending to know all. I'm sure you do.

Therigar
11-18-2009, 10:16 PM
You may want to just link dictionary.com to him. He needs a lot of help.

Check this source: Mob An AI controlled monster. 'Mob' originally comes from the MUD era, where it was short for 'mobile', to differentiate monsters that would patrol a set of rooms as opposed to monsters which would stay in one place until killed. (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001313.php)

Now, as I said, it means any monster as it is commonly used now as opposed to its original meaning.

Do you ever tire of being wrong?

Angelus_dead
11-18-2009, 10:21 PM
Check this source: Mob An AI controlled monster. 'Mob' originally comes from the MUD era, where it was short for 'mobile', to differentiate monsters that would patrol a set of rooms as opposed to monsters which would stay in one place until killed. (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001313.php)
As was completely obvious from my post, the reason I suggested you look at the definition of "mob" is because you were using it wrong:

Don't use spell points for trivial sized mobs. Kill them with melee instead. Defining trivial depends on your ability to stand in the midst of them and melee.
More AC so hit fewer times means larger mobs. This equals more kills via melee and less via mana. This then is more mana efficient causing mana to last longer.

Quintun
11-18-2009, 10:27 PM
Sorry. I put up a build. You did not. I put up. You have not.

The changes are not overly significant. If you think they are then demonstrate how and why.

I said end game is out of reach of most experienced players unless they group. You misrepresent what I said.

You are the one with the 09 join date pretending to know all. I'm sure you do.

That join date is a thorn in your side. You realize how silly you look for constanly arguing that point right? Having your full attack sequence by level 4 in most cases is very significant, if you do not see why then you know less than I thought.

Most experienced players do group, remember scaling and easier play is not something we vets had from day 1. Oh wait I forgot you are convinced my join date is when I started playing.

You have been wrong time and time again. Then when shown you act like its no big deal to not understand the game but still give advice.

Angelus_dead
11-18-2009, 10:27 PM
Yes, and this is easier to obtain and meaningful throughout the character's development in just what way?
Compared to Chattering Ring? Compared to Mineral 2? Yes, Torc of Prince Rayium De is spectacularly more accessible to a solo character.

The Torc drops from Zawabi's Revenge, which is a simple raid for a cleric to beat by himself. You don't need any special knowledge or rare equipment to do that... you just need 500 arrows, and the ability to hit a monster with them. Help from a single other player to the raid reduces the time by 80%, which is a huge convenience but really not necessary.

Compared to the items on your list it is incredibly more accessible. I mean, Chattering Ring, seriously... how many times has the current version of the Titan raid ever been soloed? (I'm thinking zero)

tihocan
11-18-2009, 11:03 PM
:o

Quintun
11-18-2009, 11:06 PM
:o

Is this an indictment of the entire thread?

Therigar
11-18-2009, 11:16 PM
Compared to Chattering Ring? Compared to Mineral 2? Yes, Torc of Prince Rayium De is spectacularly more accessible to a solo character.

The Torc drops from Zawabi's Revenge, which is a simple raid for a cleric to beat by himself. You don't need any special knowledge or rare equipment to do that... you just need 500 arrows, and the ability to hit a monster with them. Help from a single other player to the raid reduces the time by 80%, which is a huge convenience but really not necessary.

Compared to the items on your list it is incredibly more accessible. I mean, Chattering Ring, seriously... how many times has the current version of the Titan raid ever been soloed? (I'm thinking zero)

Maybe you missed it but I never suggested that a player solo Titan or the Subterrain. It is others who have put the restriction that everything has to be obtained by soloing.

Still, A_D, I know you have posted some good builds. What would you recommend as a build? Would you post it? Others only like to find faults but never seem to post anything to compare.

Quintun
11-19-2009, 12:15 AM
Maybe you missed it but I never suggested that a player solo Titan or the Subterrain. It is others who have put the restriction that everything has to be obtained by soloing.

Still, A_D, I know you have posted some good builds. What would you recommend as a build? Would you post it? Others only like to find faults but never seem to post anything to compare.

So you are admitting to ignoring the OPs reason for advice? You are so desperate.

Vua
11-19-2009, 05:29 AM
Maybe you missed it but I never suggested that a player solo Titan or the Subterrain. It is others who have put the restriction that everything has to be obtained by soloing.

Still, A_D, I know you have posted some good builds. What would you recommend as a build? Would you post it? Others only like to find faults but never seem to post anything to compare.

The "other" that put the restriction in place was the OP. I believe it was something like this. My target is a character to solo on a free account. You could at least try a realistic build from that. I understand builds trying to show their potential, but in this case it's not a realistic goal for a new player that plans on soloing.

No need to reply again unless it's for your own satisfaction. I'm done here.

Therigar
11-19-2009, 07:11 AM
The "other" that put the restriction in place was the OP. I believe it was something like this. My target is a character to solo on a free account. You could at least try a realistic build from that. I understand builds trying to show their potential, but in this case it's not a realistic goal for a new player that plans on soloing.

No need to reply again unless it's for your own satisfaction. I'm done here.

Many people have the goal of being able to solo. That does not mean that they will never participate in groups.

Nevertheless, Quintun, Angelus_dead, tihocan and you all have the opportunity to use the character builder and to post what you think will meet this very restrictive view of what it means to have a goal to solo. None of you has done that. All you have done is object to my posts.

So, for the sake of argument we'll all of us agree that I suck and my build sucks and that I'm a total idiot.

Now, post YOUR build recommendation so that OP can have a workable character that is able to solo without ever grouping or ever using henchmen through all content.

(I will conceed that this is not possible as there are at least 3 quests pre mod 9 that require more than 1 character. However, we will accept that in those quests -- and those only -- that the build you recommend can use hirelings. Of course, you can redefine what "solo" means if you want but it is you four who seem stuck on it meaning "never, ever, group" and using hirelings or joining groups "sometimes" seems to defeat that purpose to me.)

Let's see just how competent you four actually are in designing a battlecleric that will only, ever, solo. Please include all information such as gear, HP, AC, saving throws and stats once fully geared.

tihocan
11-19-2009, 08:05 AM
If you cannot do that then shut up because you are only arguing -- you are not giving OP any help at all.
Sweet, you managed to translate my smiley above into words.

Quintun
11-19-2009, 11:44 AM
Many people have the goal of being able to solo. That does not mean that they will never participate in groups.

Nevertheless, Quintun, Angelus_dead, tihocan and you all have the opportunity to use the character builder and to post what you think will meet this very restrictive view of what it means to have a goal to solo. None of you has done that. All you have done is object to my posts.

So, for the sake of argument we'll all of us agree that I suck and my build sucks and that I'm a total idiot.

Now, post YOUR build recommendation so that OP can have a workable character that is able to solo without ever grouping or ever using henchmen through all content.

(I will conceed that this is not possible as there are at least 3 quests pre mod 9 that require more than 1 character. However, we will accept that in those quests -- and those only -- that the build you recommend can use hirelings. Of course, you can redefine what "solo" means if you want but it is you four who seem stuck on it meaning "never, ever, group" and using hirelings or joining groups "sometimes" seems to defeat that purpose to me.)

Let's see just how competent you four actually are in designing a battlecleric that will only, ever, solo. Please include all information such as gear, HP, AC, saving throws and stats once fully geared.

If you cannot do that then shut up because you are only arguing -- you are not giving OP any help at all.

Funny how you accuse others of the very thing you are doing. Not to mention you keep wanting others to shut up. You have been exposed, you have admitted to not paying attention to changes and not knowing how they are important.

Every time anyone questions your numbers you get angry. You really should look into that. There is no debate with you, hubris is your flaw.

RuneStriker
11-19-2009, 11:55 AM
I don't know if the OP is even looking at this thread any more, but as someone who was originally interested in it I'd like to see it get back on track. I think there were some nuggets of good information starting to emerge before all the epeen swinging started. Let's review the outline of the original request and see if everyone can start from there to make this helpful again.

1) OP stated a FREE to play account. Since buying TP puts you into P2P that statement to me says standard races, classes and 28 point build only. So talk of Drow, WF, 32 point builds, Monk and FvS are out. Although it could be argued that eventually they could earn Drow and WF, there is currently no way of earning enough TP with a single char on an F2P account to get FvS or 32 point builds (not sure about Monk but it would be so far into the Char's development as to almost be unusable anyway). Stick with the basics and more specifically, the OP chose Dwarf so discussion for/against this racial selection would probably be helpful. Tomes should also be limited to what could REASONABLY be gained by THAT char during play either through the F2P available quests or the AH.

2) The OP specifically stated wanting to try using the STUNNING BLOW feat and I don't recall seeing a single bit of advice on this. What are the views for/against it especially considering this is a relatively low strength Cleric build and not Fighter so DC might be lower than necessary to be effective. Since the OP is looking toward the Axe Enhancements would it be worth even using this feat to begin with? Perhaps it might be better to instead focus on Hammers/Maces? Also some discussion of where/against whom this feat is best used would probably help.

3) Since the OP was inquiring about having a companion or summon, I would assume that Hirelings are within reason for quest help. I think Solo in this case (and many that I have seen on these forums) refers more to the fact that the player is either socially shy or plays at odd times or in sporadic bursts thus partying can be difficult so they are looking to explore the game on their own time.

4) No One made any comments on the Skills a soloist should be looking into. The OP has almost all skill points into concentration, but that doesn't seem to be the best mix for a solo player. Balance, Jump, Search, Spot maybe even some UMD should all be given some consideration shouldn't they? I guess none of you thinks any of these are worthwhile skills to have.

5) The character will have weaknesses. What are they and how can the player minimize them overall when playing?

Discussion of higher level goals/content/gear should be included where helpful to outline possible branches in development for the character, but let's face facts, this is not going to be the uber-soloist build that normally graces these forums because it's not being funded by a higher level char or a vet player with many enhanced build options available.

So there it is. Who can rise to the challenge and build the 28-point battle cleric soloist from the ground up with full discussion about WHY each part of the build is beneficial (or conversly why something was considered but rejected)?

Quintun
11-19-2009, 12:06 PM
I don't know if the OP is even looking at this thread any more, but as someone who was originally interested in it I'd like to see it get back on track. I think there were some nuggets of good information starting to emerge before all the epeen swinging started. Let's review the outline of the original request and see if everyone can start from there to make this helpful again.

1) OP stated a FREE to play account. Since buying TP puts you into P2P that statement to me says standard races, classes and 28 point build only. So talk of Drow, WF, 32 point builds, Monk and FvS are out. Although it could be argued that eventually they could earn Drow and WF, there is currently no way of earning enough TP with a single char on an F2P account to get FvS or 32 point builds (not sure about Monk but it would be so far into the Char's development as to almost be unusable anyway). Stick with the basics and more specifically, the OP chose Dwarf so discussion for/against this racial selection would probably be helpful. Tomes should also be limited to what could REASONABLY be gained by THAT char during play either through the F2P available quests or the AH.

2) The OP specifically stated wanting to try using the STUNNING BLOW feat and I don't recall seeing a single bit of advice on this. What are the views for/against it especially considering this is a relatively low strength Cleric build and not Fighter so DC might be lower than necessary to be effective. Since the OP is looking toward the Axe Enhancements would it be worth even using this feat to begin with? Perhaps it might be better to instead focus on Hammers/Maces? Also some discussion of where/against whom this feat is best used would probably help.

3) Since the OP was inquiring about having a companion or summon, I would assume that Hirelings are within reason for quest help. I think Solo in this case (and many that I have seen on these forums) refers more to the fact that the player is either socially shy or plays at odd times or in sporadic bursts thus partying can be difficult so they are looking to explore the game on their own time.

4) No One made any comments on the Skills a soloist should be looking into. The OP has almost all skill points into concentration, but that doesn't seem to be the best mix for a solo player. Balance, Jump, Search, Spot maybe even some UMD should all be given some consideration shouldn't they? I guess none of you thinks any of these are worthwhile skills to have.

5) The character will have weaknesses. What are they and how can the player minimize them overall when playing?

Discussion of higher level goals/content/gear should be included where helpful to outline possible branches in development for the character, but let's face facts, this is not going to be the uber-soloist build that normally graces these forums because it's not being funded by a higher level char or a vet player with many enhanced build options available.

So there it is. Who can rise to the challenge and build the 28-point battle cleric soloist from the ground up with full discussion about WHY each part of the build is beneficial (or conversly why something was considered but rejected)?

Number 1) giving advice that includes things they have to buy in the DDO store is good though. We need all the paying people we can find.

Number 2) Stunning blow on a low str BC might be ok for the first few levels, but once you get a little higher and the DC is not going up with STR and the enhancements it is a wasted feat unfortunately.

ON number 4, the problem with skills on a cleric is the lack of skill points. INT is needed and a battlecleric made with 28 PT simply has no points left to bump INT high enough to fill out those skills. I see no real reason for UMD since the most common goal is ressurection or heal scrolls which a cleric has covered. As a solo cleric Concentration is a huge skill, summon monsters and hirelings can only help so much in aggro control and getting hit will be a fact of life.

tihocan
11-19-2009, 12:06 PM
Good points Rune. To answer just some of them:
2. I gave advice about stunning blow on 1st page: "Stunning blow is fine at first, but at some point it won't work anymore so you can swap it out."
4. Skill-wise, I think it makes sense to start with 10 Int (if not human) to be able to pick up both concentration and balance without a tome. Otherwise there's a significant risk of being killed while tripped. This is if going with a low dex build as in the OP. On a high dex twf build this is less of an issue.

RuneStriker
11-19-2009, 01:59 PM
Number 1) giving advice that includes things they have to buy in the DDO store is good though. We need all the paying people we can find.

While I did say later on that discussion of such can be helpful, it's only good if you can offer an alternative for those (like perhaps the OP) who choose to remain F2P. If you can't give the OP advice on how to develop their character beyond "you should get X from the store" then you really aren't helping the situation. If you could turn that into "if you had X you could build this synergy, but with out it you might want to go this route instead..." that would be much better.

I would think that the best advice for F2P chars regarding the store would be what adventure packs to spend their meager TP on to help further their favor/experience/loot gains. I know there is a thread on that but more advice based on the developing build would help I'm sure.



Now we're starting to get somewhere though let's review what we have...

1) Several mentions about lowering CHA, but would that better be served by adding to WIS, STR or INT? Seems that DEX could also be lowered to 10 (or even 9) boost one of those since the OP isn't going near the TWF lines and Dwarves get racial enhancements to help negate any armor penalties which would allow for heavier armor for increased defense.

2) So Stunning Blow will only be good in the early game. If the OP chooses to play with that at first, at what level do you see it becoming useless and what would be good to swap in for it especially since the OP already has two Toughness feats and Extend already factored into the build? Empowered Healing perhaps? Or maybe Quicken to help with battle casting (which could maybe help take a bit of pressure off the Concentration rolls).

<My bad on missing the original discussion of this. Shame on me for that>

3) Nothing yet, but lets look at that, what would be the best hireling for a Battle Cleric since you can't hire a Rogue?

4) So we know that skill points will be slim unless the char wants to sac a stat for some increased INT. So it seems advisable to increase INT to 10 in order to get some points into Balance and possibly Spot to go along with the Concentration? I find Spot to be highly recommended in many posts to new players because they don't know where any of the traps are yet in the game and being solo makes that even more of a hazard because you can't fall back on someone else to pick up that slack.

5) Yeah I added one - Stats need to be fleshed out first to help with direction but I think there needs to be more discussion about weapon/armor/shield considerations for this type of character. Is S&B the best option given the limited Stat points and Feats? What about getting STR up high enough to introduce a THF feat or two for using a GreatAxe against trash mobs where the shield AC may not be needed.

tihocan
11-19-2009, 02:07 PM
4) So we know that skill points will be slim unless the char wants to sac a stat for some increased INT. So it seems advisable to increase INT to 10 in order to get some points into Balance and possibly Spot to go along with the Concentration? I find Spot to be highly recommended in many posts to new players because they don't know where any of the traps are yet in the game and being solo makes that even more of a hazard because you can't fall back on someone else to pick up that slack.

5) Yeah I added one - Stats need to be fleshed out first to help with direction but I think there needs to be more discussion about weapon/armor/shield considerations for this type of character. Is S&B the best option given the limited Stat points and Feats? What about getting STR up high enough to introduce a THF feat or two for using a GreatAxe against trash mobs where the shield AC may not be needed.
4. Spot isn't a bad skill to have but it won't work with the highest level traps. Without an easy skill respec option, I wouldn't suggest to take it.

5. Definitely go THF (start sword & board until you notice you're almost always getting hit, then switch to THF). That's the whole thing that started my argument with Therigar though, so I'll emphasize it's only my opinion ;)

Quintun
11-19-2009, 04:57 PM
While I did say later on that discussion of such can be helpful, it's only good if you can offer an alternative for those (like perhaps the OP) who choose to remain F2P. If you can't give the OP advice on how to develop their character beyond "you should get X from the store" then you really aren't helping the situation. If you could turn that into "if you had X you could build this synergy, but with out it you might want to go this route instead..." that would be much better.

I would think that the best advice for F2P chars regarding the store would be what adventure packs to spend their meager TP on to help further their favor/experience/loot gains. I know there is a thread on that but more advice based on the developing build would help I'm sure.



Now we're starting to get somewhere though let's review what we have...

1) Several mentions about lowering CHA, but would that better be served by adding to WIS, STR or INT? Seems that DEX could also be lowered to 10 (or even 9) boost one of those since the OP isn't going near the TWF lines and Dwarves get racial enhancements to help negate any armor penalties which would allow for heavier armor for increased defense.

2) So Stunning Blow will only be good in the early game. If the OP chooses to play with that at first, at what level do you see it becoming useless and what would be good to swap in for it especially since the OP already has two Toughness feats and Extend already factored into the build? Empowered Healing perhaps? Or maybe Quicken to help with battle casting (which could maybe help take a bit of pressure off the Concentration rolls).

<My bad on missing the original discussion of this. Shame on me for that>

3) Nothing yet, but lets look at that, what would be the best hireling for a Battle Cleric since you can't hire a Rogue?

4) So we know that skill points will be slim unless the char wants to sac a stat for some increased INT. So it seems advisable to increase INT to 10 in order to get some points into Balance and possibly Spot to go along with the Concentration? I find Spot to be highly recommended in many posts to new players because they don't know where any of the traps are yet in the game and being solo makes that even more of a hazard because you can't fall back on someone else to pick up that slack.

5) Yeah I added one - Stats need to be fleshed out first to help with direction but I think there needs to be more discussion about weapon/armor/shield considerations for this type of character. Is S&B the best option given the limited Stat points and Feats? What about getting STR up high enough to introduce a THF feat or two for using a GreatAxe against trash mobs where the shield AC may not be needed.

I would drop a toughness feat as well. Quicken and empower as well as empower healing are all good. If he chooses to max WIS he will have the SP to use empowered, extrended maximized BB as a killing tool at higher levels. Which will help replace the lowered melee he is going to have(yes he could buff up to use melee but he will use the same SP really to get buffed as he would to use the BB). That is also a choice to make later when the OP decides which playstyle he ends up liking best. Stunning blow will really start to be less effective around level 10 or the Giant Hold. Many people fail to realize how much the game changes in that area.

As for hirelings, as a battle cleric I might want another cleric to be honest. That way you can use your SP for offense and emergency healing as needed while using the hireling as the main healing. If after some use I noticed it was not working I would then get a fighter type for aggro.

Quintun
11-19-2009, 07:51 PM
You are the one with the 09 join date pretending to know all. I'm sure you do.

I was just wondering, you mock my join date all the time, yet you seem to have quit the game from March 2007 until 9/1/2009. Or you simply never posted that entire time. So which is it? Or are you not responding as per your new signature?

RuneStriker
11-20-2009, 08:00 AM
I was just wondering, you mock my join date all the time, yet you seem to have quit the game from March 2007 until 9/1/2009. Or you simply never posted that entire time. So which is it? Or are you not responding as per your new signature?

Let it go Quintun. This is no longer the thread for this discussion and the fact that Tarrant stepped in and modified posts in this thread should clue you in to the fact that it's time to refocus or move on. Please don't let your constructive advice be overshadowed by the fact that you can't let this go.

Quintun
11-20-2009, 12:17 PM
Let it go Quintun. This is no longer the thread for this discussion and the fact that Tarrant stepped in and modified posts in this thread should clue you in to the fact that it's time to refocus or move on. Please don't let your constructive advice be overshadowed by the fact that you can't let this go.

Out of my system and moving on. Thanks for the push.