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captain1z
11-12-2009, 09:14 PM
If you have ever believed the phrase "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts" then multi-classing may be for you. In PNP balance is encouraged and because of the lower range of hit points, Armor Class, saving throws and skill difficulties a level 10 cleric/10 wizard can still function and function well (I actually role play a priest like this one..... hes a necromancer trying to understand life and death). In DDO the range of all these things is much wider, so much so that if you trend to much towards the middle you will find yourself unable to touch the end.

Time has taught those who play this game often how to mix and match classes and gain some of the benefits of one class, while at the same time losing little to none of another.

The Most Important thing to decide when multi-classing is "what is the focus of your character" and "what are the extras you would like to add to that". Think of it as buying a car;

first you decide on the kind of car
then you choose if you want a cd player, mp3 player or just standard radio
do you want hybrid, electric or gas
is it for racing or for driving

Everything in life has limits, so you cant have everything you want. How much are you willing to sacrifice to get what you want and will it be practical to have. A doctor who likes to race cars on his days off doesnt buy a Nascar to drive to and from the hospital, but he might get something sporty and fast with a stick shift. If he takes too many days off to go racing he may be out of a job and if he races on the way to work he could end up in jail or dead. Focus on what you do and if needed volunteer all the extra things you can do to help as well, but only when its needed.

Multiclassing in DDO is often refered to as "splashing". Every class has key levels of importants, when you gain an ability that greatly enhances your character. These levels are called "break points" Im going to try and outline some of these "break points" and try to give some insight on how to make them work for your character.

In most examples I will try to highlight an attribute that will help you make the most of a "splash" most of them will not include constitution but do not be misled, Constitution is NOT a dump stat. Meaning it can not be ignored, the consequences of doing so can be a build killer instead of a killer build.

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Fighters - benefit the most from high str. Dex based, weapon finesse fighter build do exist and are useful but will be unable to take full advantage of many of the benefits of being a fighter class. Feats like stunning blow, power attack, two handed fighting and about 75% of the weapons they are able to use are heavily dependant on strength. Fighter gain a free combat feat at 1st and another at every even numbered level of fighter class. Fighter prestige enhncements are available at 6/12 and 18 and can enhance some expert builds at those levels.

Break points in fighter levels are 1/2/6/12/18 alignment any http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Fighter

Level 1 of fighter gives you the feats needed to use all simple & martial weapons; light, medium, heavy armors; all shields including Tower shields. At level 1 you gain a free combat feat as well, this is of great benefit to classes that are more limited in feats that are available to them.

Level 2 of fighter in addition to all the benefits of level one get another free combat feat as well as the ability to increase thier strength by 1 point through use of action points.

Level 6 of fighter opens up tier 1 PRE's which can provide a nice bump in offense or defense for some builds. The steep requirements needed to qualify may mean this is the only PRE you will have access to.

Level 12 of fighter opens tier 2 PRE's and to the right build may be enough, with careful planning it can work

Level 18 means your role in a party is primarily meleeing. At this level you will have gained almost all of the benefits of being a fighter. You have access to teir 3 prestige enhancements and will only be giving up the capstone and 1 free combat feat, both granted at 20th level.
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Paladins in DDO are difficult to build because of the importants of str,con,wis and charisma to the class. You cant focus to much in one area without crippling another. A paladin who spends all his attribute points in charisma will be just as limited as a paladin who spends all his attributes in strength. In paladins you want to be more balanced in these things but you ar a melee class first and should overall have a higher strength even at the cost of a slightly lower wis & cha while keeping your con balanced. A paladin with wis & cha 2 pts lower than his con and str 2 pts higher is on the right track. The above is true if your primary class will be paladin but a splash of 1-2 levels really only needs charisma. 3 levels of Paladin will grant you immunities to both fear and disease but with items, spells and the high saves granted from only 2 levels I feel the additional level is redundant and can be of more value elsewhere.

Paladin break points are at 1/2/14/15/18 alignment LG http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Paladin

Level 1 as a paladin gives you access to some clerical/healing wands as well as all simple/ martial weapons, light, medium and heavy armors and all shields except the tower shield. One level of paladin is good for a class like fighter that does not have the ability to use clerical/healing wands.

Level 2 of paladin grants a feat called "divine grace" which allows your character to add his charisma bonus to all of his saving throws. So imagine a 16 sorc/2 paladin/2 rogue with 30 charisma, 8th level spells and evasion. At this level you will also gain the ability to "lay on hands" or LOH, which is a quick and powerful heal a paladin may use a limited number of times per rest. LOH is dependant on the level of the paladin and his charisma modifier. You will also have access to bonus charisma via enhancements.

Level 14 grants the paladin access to 4th level spells, with some of the best combat spells a paladin can cast. Having these spells is vital to a primary paladin class. At this level you have tier 2 prestige enhancements and most of what a paladin needs to be effective.

Level 15 is a small break point for getting maximum strength from your auras without benefit of boosts from tier 3 prestige enhancements. The added bonuses from auras is nice if you can fit it into your build.

Level 18 gives access to the 3rd and currently final tier of prestige enhancements, some of which are the only reasons to take more than 2 levels in paladin class. The undead hunter, defender and knight of the chalice (aka devil hunter) are huge boosters of dps for paladins when fighting specific enemies like the undead, devils or most raid bosses.

captain1z
11-12-2009, 09:14 PM
Barbarians are a high damage dealing melee class with a lower armor class then most melees, both of these traits can be directly linked to a barbarians ability to rage. Strength and constitution are the two basic attributes for a barbarian. Dexterity and wisdom are both highly debated secondary attributes that can both reap benefits but either way you go, you will find a barbarian is heavily dependant on the support he recieves. Frenzied rage is a powerful ability allowing your character to crit harder, making weapons that crit often, like rapiers and falchions a consistant source of high DPS. Great axes, Mauls and dwarven axes become weapons that produce insane on crit damage but less often than others. The frenzied berserker teirs are available at 6th, 12th and 18th levels and at each teir you will see a noticeable increase in damage output but its really a better idea to go all the way if you are going to take the enhancement.

For that reason I'll be listing break points at 1/2/18 Alignment Any non-Lawful http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Barbarian

Level 1- Barbarian grants use of all simple & martial weapons, all shields except tower and both light and medium armors. Also granted is the ability to rage, increasing both str and con at the cost of armor class and increased base movement. Keep in mind that this rage ability will prevent the use of spells, spells activated by items and some potions.

Level 2 - Grants you access to increased con, 1 point of DR/- and the use of uncanny dodge, increasing AC and reflex saves by +4 for 15 secs.

Level 18- If you are going to multi-class your barbarian Frenzied Berserker 3 and Death frenzy should not be passed up. Well built barb18/rogue2 evasion barbarians, two weapon fighting barbarian18/ranger2 or the more defensive barbarian18/fighter2 are all good compensation for the lose of mighty rage at barb 20.

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Rangers are the most self sufficient of all the melee classes getting most of what they need to do well for free and often bypassing prerequisites for feats in the process. Rangers are hands down the best two weapon combatants and as good as any will ever get when it comes to ranged weapons. Like fighters they can benefit greatly from high str but dex builds can do just fine with at least a nod in the direction of str. Rangers need a wisdom score of 10+ spell level to cast thier spells and can cast up to 4th level spells. Items that add to wisdom count towards meeting this requirement, thus a ranger with 8 wisdom that wears a +6 item can still cast his highest level spells, giving the ranger a lot of room in deciding how much to put into wis, int and cha* sfter he has taken care of str, dex and con. *Animal Empathy, a ranger ability to charm animals, is based off of charisma. It can also be used on vermin and to fascinate elementals if you choose to spend a few action points and a favored enemy on it. Few players use this option, some because they feel its not worth it others because they dont know about it, build specific or flavor ability at best* Because Rangers have so many valuable abilities, they have the most break points.

Ranger Break points 1/2/6/9/11/12/14/18 alignment any http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Ranger

Ranger level 1- grants you the Bow Strength feat, allowing str bonus to be added to Bow and arrows. You also gain the ability to do added damage to a Favored Enemy. The Damage bonus is increased a 5, 10, 15 and 20 levels, at each point you can also gain another type of enemy. If you only get one, think about taking "evil outsiders" as it has the most endgame use.

Ranger level 2- gives you access to a dexterity boost and two weapon fighting. Keep in mind that any class taking two weapon fighting must have a dexterity of 15 except rangers. They can fall well below this and still use the feat, a trait which can be very attractive to a low dexterity barbarian who wants to maximize his dps potential.

Ranger 6- is a huge break point for most builds, with Manyshot, Deepwoods sniper 1 and Arcane Archer 1 satisfiying those who wanna range and Tempest 1, Improved two weapon fighting (without meeting the dex requirement) covering those who focus on melee. Tempest rogues work very well because of this and the fact that rangers get a good number of skill points and share a few skills with rogues making it possible to keep those skills maxed out but an investment in intelligence would make this easier........ for skill points. If Tempest is your goal then stopping here is ok as the benefits of tempest do not dramaticly increase beyond this point.

Ranger 9- at this level rangers get evasion (the only full BAB class that does). It is a possible break point but after 9 levels its best to take at least 11 if possible. Try to avoid getting evasion as a free feat more than once, meaning taking ranger 9 and rogue 2. It doesnt do any harm but at the same time it doesnt do any good, unless you have a specific reason for doing so.

Ranger 11- Greater two weapon fighting, precise shot and Improved precise shot are great feats to have access to. Allowing an extra melee attack with your off hand weapon and being able to shoot multiple monsters with a single arrow will increase your overall damage output.

Ranger 12- Gives you access to tier 2 pre's as well as maxing out your barkskin spell at +5 to natural armor bonus. Not a bad place for a two weapon specialist to stop at all.

Ranger 14- gives you access to 4th level ranger spells. A few of these like Freedom of movement and Mass Longstrider are useful.

Ranger 18- Grants the last tier in ranger pre's. At this level you have all the benefits of being a ranger and can still grab some great abilities from other classes and all you lose is Ranger Archer Mastery which is not a huge loss at all.

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captain1z
11-12-2009, 09:15 PM
Rogues are the most diverse class in DDO and its hard to assume that two rogues will perform the same in a group. Some are melee, some ranged, some trapmonkeys, some are like clerics........... you just never know (that can be both good and bad). Its hard to point out just one attribute and say rogues should focus on it, the truth is that rogues can do well with high str, dex, everyone needs con, int, wis to a lesser degree and charisma. Placed in order, the most common distribution would be Dex, Int, Con, str, cha, wis although you can easily switch that up without fear.

- Strength based rogues can still have a Dex in the 20's with a strength closer to 30, throw on some mithral breastplate armor and have a functional AC. They are very compatible with any other melee class and can be a great source of added DPS

- Dexterity based rogues depend on sneak attack damage more and tend to have higher AC's. Move Silently, Hide, balance and open locks are all dex based skills. Weapon finesse will improve a dex rogues combat ability and they mix well with pretty much any class or race that can manage a decent dexterity.

- Intelligence is the focus of a rogue who wants many skills at high levels. Too much intelligence can be overkill but when you are taking levels in a class that recieves fewer skill points (like fighters who only get 1 per level) it can help you keep 1 or 2 maxed out. Search and Disable are both intelligence skills which is why wizard/rogues have such great synergy, there is even a feat called "Insightful Reflexes" http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Insightful_Reflexes that allows you to substitute your Intelligence modifier for Dexterity when calculating your reflex saves.

- Charisma based rogues excel in UMD, bluff, haggle, diplomacy and make good choices for paladins, sorcs and bards. The addition of UMD expands the role of any class.

Basicly the rogue can mix with any class and even 1 level if done properly can support select skills, though this highly depends on class and intelligence. For being so varied the rogue has the most break points as any mix from 1-19 levels can have a profound effect.
The only rule that remains constant for any rogue splash is that your 1st level should alway be as a rogue to gain the maximum benefit from your skill points.

Rogue break points are at 1/2/6/10/12/18 alignment any http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Rogue
* stopping at odd numbered levels is encouraged as sneak attack damage goes up every odd level by +1D6*

Rogue level 1- and access to 4 or more skill points per level can make a fairly decent rogue, the more skill points you can get the better (to a point....I'd say 8 is very functional but more than 10 doesnt come without sacrifices). When done right, rangers and wizards only need 1 level to double as a fully functioning rogue others enjoy a large boost in skills.

Rogue level 2- grants access to the evasion feat, only monk 2 and ranger 9 have this feat.

Rogue level 6- opens tier 1 pre's, some of which function well enough at this level. Tier 1 acrobat gives you the "showtime" ability which basicly turns you into the Flash for a few seconds. The use of tier 1 mechanic is questionable, the skill boost is ok but not needed by most. Tier 1 assassin is mostly useless, if you are planning to go assassin tier 2 or 3 is a much better option.

Rogue level 10- gives you the option to take special rogue feats like Crippling Strike (best choice for melees), Improved Evasion (for all serious trapsmiths), skill mastery (for those who need that extra bump in skills), defensive roll and slippery mind (neither are stellar abilities but both provided a second chance at life in emergencies). You get another chance to pick these skills at 13th, 16th and 19th.

Rogue level 12- has tier 2 pre's and they all function reasonably well at this level.

Rogue level 18- is tier 3 of the assassin line and it removes the worst limiting factor of tier 2 assassin by letting you assassinate creatures you on crits so long as you still qualify for melee sneak attack damage. This ability is very deadly when used by a well built melee rogue.

captain1z
11-12-2009, 09:16 PM
Clerics, sorcerors and wizards are not the best candidates for multi-classing. Access to spells, DC's and spell point totals are all highly dependant on the casters level and primary attribute. This could change in the future when pre's become available for these classes but as of now mid-point splashing should be avoided as the usefulness of all your spells will be greatly reduced.

Break points for Clerics and wizards are 1/17 with sorcerors being 1/18

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Cleric

Cleric level 1- grants access to all divine wands, so a fighter4/cleric1 can use cure serious wands. Also available though AP's is "Divine Vitality" which will restore spell points to another character with divine or arcane spell access. For example a paladin9/cleric1 or sorceror12/cleric1 would both have dv's in large quantities as it is a charisma based ability.

Cleric level 17- gives you access to 9th level spells, the highest level spells available. That leaves some room to play around in other class abilities and still leaves you in a position to do most of what a full cleric can. cleric 17/rogue 2/ fighter 1 has enormous potential and the loss of the capstone and about four 9th level spells slots is not a huge handicap at this point in time.

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http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Wizard

Wizard level 1- much like cleric 1 gives you use of all arcane wands, it also gets you 1 free metamagic feat but not much else beyond that. Wizards gain additional metamagic feats at 5/10/15 and 20. The available feats have recently been expanded to include mental toughness and improved mental toughness, which may prove valuable to elven arcane archers.

Wizard level 17- very similiar to cleric 17 has access to 9th level spells and has great opportunity to multi-class. Be careful in you planning because your giving up a very important capstone but multi-functional wizards can be a lot of fun to play.

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http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Sorcerer

Sorceror level 1- is nearly identical to wizard 1 except they sacrifice a metamagic feat for a slight increase in spell points. Keep in mind also that the extra sp sorcs get from items is diminished by splashing. The gain is equal to your levels of sorceror divided by your total levels times 10%.

Sorceror level 18- grants access to 9th level spells, leaving two levels for multi-classing. The higher charisma of a sorc leaves tremendous opportunity to splash with paladin (saves boost), rogue (evasion and/or UMD) or cleric (DV's semi-useless flavor splash that I've done before)


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Most of what you can do by splashing levels in these classes can be gained by staying pure but they are fun little build ideas that are a break from the norm and can easily become a favorite character when built well.

captain1z
11-12-2009, 09:17 PM
Almost done here........ please keep in mind the idea behind all of this is to figure out what you wanna be good at primarily. Decide how many levels you wanna invest and piece in the splash classes in portions that will fill out your 20 levels cap. Most of it is already broken in such a way that you can plug them together without too much thought as its mostly laid out for you.


other resources for help:

by Aranticus
- How I build My toons http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=198691 (good insight on stats and feats. which + how much)
- Templates for new players http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=147492 (this is a huge list)

saved for others things tho I may omit fvs bard and monk for lack of knowledge in those areas

captain1z
11-12-2009, 09:17 PM
saved just in case

Deathknight_Xael
11-12-2009, 09:37 PM
fighter 6 - Kensai prestige enhancement.
fighter 12 - Kensai 2 enchancement


/bump

Should sticky when competed

captain1z
11-13-2009, 12:55 AM
fighter 6 - Kensai prestige enhancement.
fighter 12 - Kensai 2 enchancement


/bump

Should sticky when competed

hey thnx.

mind you I didnt forget about levels 6 & 12 but for the purposes of multi-classing Im not sure I would advise anyone to go 6 or 12 levels in fighter unless they had a very specific reason for doing so. Why I say this is because you will end up with a character who is not as focused as im trying to encourage new players to be. I feel if you are gonna go more than 2 levels (in some cases) you may as well go all the way. Again..... Im not saying its a bad idea to do that but only if you are sure of what you are doing..... and if thats the case you really dont need my help at all.


I'll give you an example: using barbarians/ paladins and rogues mixed with 12 levels of fighter

12 fighter/ 8 barbarian - gets lots of feats, misses out on high level fighter abilities that boost DC's on tactical moves and gets very little as a barb. Frenzied berzerker is something that really shoul be taken as far as possible.

12 fighter/ 8 paladin - the 8 levels of paladin give you about the same usefulness as 2 levels would get you. Paladins dont become exciting to play until 14th level or so, then you can really see the difference between a good fighter and a good paladin. this mix cuts you off from the possibility of either.

12 fighter/ 8 rogue - rogue skills will be too low to function as a rogue and your attack bonus will suffer greatly. You hit points will also drop steeply and your strength will drop due to the fact that you have to support your rogue abilities. If you choose not to give this build extra dex or int or a bit of charisma to support UMD then you would have been better off just taking 1 or 2 levels for evasion and focusing on just 1 or 2 skills.

In every case except the barbarian/ fighter split you need to pull points away from strength to help the abilities of your second class function properly and in doing so you make yourself a less capable fighter.

Thats why I recommend 1 or 2 levels for a small investment in fighting or 18 for the full 3 tiers. 1 tier of most prestige enhancements is so weak that its usually not worth taking at all unless you go for all 3 (usually..not always) Take rogues for example... 6 levels of rogue for the tier 1 of assassin is totally useless for both a 6th level character and a 20th level character alike.


or even 6 levels

14 barb/ 6 fighter - this can work but without those upper levels of barbarian your rage is no where near what it could be and all you gained out of the deal was 4 free feats that you really didnt need.

14 paladin/ 6 fighter - again this could work but it would be nice to have a full aura or the 3rd tier.

14 rogue/ 6 fighter - this combo hurts you as a rogue. Fighters only get 1 skill point per level and a rogue needs to support search, spot, disable, UMD and open locks at the bare minimum. For 6 levels you would have 1 skill point to divide amongst at least 5 skills, which means somethings gotta suffer and when called upon to open a door or chest or disarm a trap that is equal to your level, you may not be able to do it. Not to mention your attack bonus has already suffered. You would hurt yourself too much when you could get the same benefit with no drawbacks (or very minor ones anyway) with 18 fighter/ 2 rogue. 18 fighter/ 2 rogue is a capable fighter, who can probably pick a lock or use a heal scroll and has evasion. If we use cars as an example again 14 rogue/ 8 fighter is like an SUV with a sattelite dish on top that runs on eletric. It wants all terrain, with access to radio and internet at anytime but cant go far because it will run out of power if you drive more than a mile...... it works fine in the yard though.

Its like juggling baseballs, you gotta be able to handle the first one before you can throw anymore in there.

thnx for the bump by the way. :)

Impaqt
11-13-2009, 01:10 AM
L3 is a big Paladin break point as well.

Disease and Fear Immunity and Extra Lay on hands and AC Via Enhancemnt Points.

captain1z
11-13-2009, 01:56 AM
L3 is a big Paladin break point as well.

Disease and Fear Immunity and Extra Lay on hands and AC Via Enhancemnt Points.


but would you give up a tier 3 prestige class for it?

I know it looks wierd like Im skipping over certain break points and in truth I am but Im hoping it will make more sense when Im done. I simply would not advise taking 3 levels of pali for fear and disease immunity to a new player because those 2 things are easily dealt with.

I'd rather a new player look at this and say Oh I can go 16 fighter/2pali/2 rogue or 18 pali/ 2 rogue as opossed to 17 ranger/3 pali for fear immunity and lose out on tempest 3.

Uska
11-13-2009, 02:14 AM
nvm someone else already talked about lvl 3 paly

mickey2toes
11-13-2009, 02:40 AM
Being a new player to DDO, (former pnp player MANY years ago), I really like the idea of this guide. Gives us newbs a roadmap of sorts....

Thanks

+1 for you

Deathknight_Xael
11-13-2009, 03:42 AM
What about 6 fighter 12 ranger, or 12 fighter 6 ranger

but really, noone should multiclass rogue more than two levels for most reasons. I'd give up tier 3 abilities for fear immunity, of course I usually multiclass three ways anyways...

I'm starting to sense some bias towards these breakpoints. If you're going to make a guide, try to keep personal opinions out of it. I'm not attacking you, I'm advising against holding information back. If you feel you must put your opinions into it, give it like experienced advice AFTER you've supplied the full information. I think that would help people alot more.

captain1z
11-13-2009, 05:03 AM
What about 6 fighter 12 ranger, or 12 fighter 6 ranger

but really, noone should multiclass rogue more than two levels for most reasons. I'd give up tier 3 abilities for fear immunity, of course I usually multiclass three ways anyways...

I'm starting to sense some bias towards these breakpoints. If you're going to make a guide, try to keep personal opinions out of it. I'm not attacking you, I'm advising against holding information back. If you feel you must put your opinions into it, give it like experienced advice AFTER you've supplied the full information. I think that would help people alot more.

6 & 12 will indeed be break points for rangers when I get to it :)

Bias..... yes there is bias. there are certain things I feel just dont work well when multiclassing or can be done better. I will have links so anyone can dig deeper if they choose but like I said this is for the begginer, not someone who knows what they want from the start.

But heres the thing about the fear immunity and disease immunity. If I had 20 levels to spend between fighter and paladin but I wanted to be mostly fighter I could:

a) go 17 fighter/ 3 paladin and be immune to fear/disease and have tier 2 Kensia abilities

or

b) go 18 fighter/ 2 paladin and wear a disease immunity item. Disease immunity comes on many heavy fort belts or I could just put one on when I need it but its a fort save and fighters have great fort saves and with the level 2 paladin save boost they become even better or I could just drink a remove disease potion. As far as fear goes again I will have great saves already an will likely make my save vs fear or I can get a fear immunity item or will be immune to fear if a wizard casts the greater hero spell on me. With so many ways to aviod or negate those 2 conditions all together I feel it would be of greater benefit to someone who is multi-classing to get the tier 3 PRE instead because there is nothing you can buy or find easily that will give that to you. The teir 3 PRE will be useful in 100% of the content of the game. the disease and fear immunity will be useful only in quests where this is a problem... of which there are few.

Yes its a break point and you will see it in the link but for multi-class purposes I cannot advocate taking the 3rd level for that reason. Of course some will disagree and that is thier choice but I cant justify it. Im sorry if you feel Im being biased in that area but its sorta like taking 3 levels of wizard so you can cast scorching ray.

Its certainly not hidden as Yourself, Uska and Impact have already pointed it out. Anyone can decide for themselves if its a choice they would like to make....... but again, I wouldnt recommend doing it.

I very much appreciate the input. Seriously.

Deathknight_Xael
11-13-2009, 05:07 AM
keep up the good work, looking forward to the rest of it.

ivar415
11-13-2009, 05:35 AM
Eagerly awaiting the Ranger and Rogue parts. Like that you keep the classes one has to buy separate.

mechgouki
11-13-2009, 05:41 AM
Very important question about Enhancements for Multiclasses. Will they stack?

For example, you have fighter 10 and Paladin 10.

Not counting the Racial Toughness, will the Fighter Toughness and Paladin Toughness Enhancement all stack up?

Aranticus
11-13-2009, 05:46 AM
this is very similar to what i did in my "how i build my toons" thread. once you are done, let me know and i'll put the link up

mechgouki
11-13-2009, 05:48 AM
Please answer my question on the Enhancement stacking, thanks.

JOTMON
11-13-2009, 08:11 AM
DDO is a versitle character building game.
Pure classes can vary in many ways to suit personal choice, add multi-class and your possibilities become exponential.

With multiclassing comes the risk of gimpness, some classe mixes work well early but lose their benefit later.
Such as a Primary class rogue with a splash of cleric. Early on self healing/wand usage is great with low umd.
At higher levels though the UMD of that rogue and the loss of a rogue level or 2 outweighs the benefit of those early cleric levels.

Splash classes typically is what you call taking 1 to 3 levels of another class for benefit that the other class provides that does not really impact your primary class in a large way.
Common splashes are for 2 levels or Rogue or Monk for evasion, 1-3 levels Paladin for saves/divine wand usage, Ranger for TWF/divine wand usage. Barbarian for HP and martial weapons.... there are many combinations.

The cost of splashing is the loss of a capstone, spell points/DC (in the case of caster classes) and possibly the prestige set bonuses.

Careful planning in some cases is required when taking other classes. timing of when you take those classes also makes a difference in some cases. Taking Rogue at first level nets a lot more skill points, but taking rogue at the second level when your primary class will be something else may ultimately cause you to not get the fuull benefit of the cross class. Taking rogue to get UMD for example capped at 4 skill points at level 1, can take one more at level 2 but then is crooss class after that. Rogue gets 8 skill points per level. Taking rogue at 2nd level will force you to put the 7 skill points somewhere else.

Some classes don't see real benefits between 2nd level and 6th level. so in some cases taking 3 or 4 levels in a cross class is not as beneficial as taking only 2 or taking the class to 6 levels to get the first enhancement tier.
Ranger for example TWF at 2nd level Tempest at 6th, not much in between.

Personally I love multiclassing have a cleric with 2 levels of rogue and one with 2 levels of monk. completely different playstyles. Human Trapmonkey 18cleric/2rogue with evasion and D-Door. and Halfling 17Cleric/2Monk/1Sorc AC evasion battlecaster cleric.

My Halfling 17Cleric/2Monk/1Sorc took a sorcerer level thinking I wa going to get double mana on mana enhancing gear soon discovoured that was not the case. the double mana from an item is based on sorcerer levels. so instead of getting +300 from my shroud gear I got (shroud item Wiz6(150)+50+100)/20(my current level)*1(Sorcerer level) = +15.

Many Pen and Paper players new to the game give advise, they are generally quite knowledgeable but...
Dont take PnP as being gospal, DDO does follow PnP as a general rule, but there are differences in DDO.
So make sure you do your research before multiclassing and ask questions then get a second/third opinion.

Good luck.

Impaqt
11-13-2009, 08:52 AM
but would you give up a tier 3 prestige class for it?

I know it looks wierd like Im skipping over certain break points and in truth I am but Im hoping it will make more sense when Im done. I simply would not advise taking 3 levels of pali for fear and disease immunity to a new player because those 2 things are easily dealt with.

I'd rather a new player look at this and say Oh I can go 16 fighter/2pali/2 rogue or 18 pali/ 2 rogue as opossed to 17 ranger/3 pali for fear immunity and lose out on tempest 3.

By that logic you shold not be listing anything other than 1/2/18 then.

Going 14/15 levels breaks PrE Teri 1 on another class.

If it doesnt make sense as a partial posting, ya should just wait till your ready to post to actually post it then....

Impaqt
11-13-2009, 08:53 AM
Please answer my question on the Enhancement stacking, thanks.



They do not stack because they can not stack.

If a line is shared across classes, taking any amount of that line ion one class locks it out of the other.

mechgouki
11-13-2009, 08:54 AM
I assume Fighter Toughness and Paladin Toughness will stack seeing they are from different pools?

Thrudh
11-13-2009, 09:05 AM
In paladins you want to be more balanced in these things but you ar a melee class first and should overall have a higher strength even at the cost of a slightly lower wis & cha while keeping your con balanced. A paladin with wis & cha 2 pts lower than his con and str 2 pts higher is on the right track.

This is mis-leading... STR is not the most important attribute for a paladin, even though they are a melee class... CHA is just as important. I'd rather have a paladin with a 16 STR and 16 CHA than one with a 18 STR and a 14 CHA.

Divine Might is better than strength.


Rest of it looks very good...

Basically, multi-classing is looking at what you give up and comparing it what you gain, and deciding which is more important to you....

When you splash paladin with two levels of rogue, you have to list out all the things that 2 levels of rogue get you, and then list out everything level 19-20 paladin gets you... and then compare them. and make your decision...

But you have to do the comparison. Too many people multi-class ad-hoc, with no idea what they are giving up at end-game, just looking at what they are gaining right then.

Runehammer
11-13-2009, 09:06 AM
I assume Fighter Toughness and Paladin Toughness will stack seeing they are from different pools?

No because they are both CLASS enhancements and therefor the same type. Now if you had a WF fighter that took toughness you could double dip because WF have a toughness enhancement line "RACE" and a fighter enchancement line "CLASS" and they would stack.

Thrudh
11-13-2009, 09:07 AM
I assume Fighter Toughness and Paladin Toughness will stack seeing they are from different pools?

Nope... race and class enhancements stack (i.e. elven dex with rogue dex), but class enhancements do not (i.e. ranger dex and rogue dex or fighter toughness and paladin toughnesss do not stack)

Samiusbot
11-13-2009, 09:09 AM
There are a lot of good 3 class builds out there. they however, often require a great understanding of short and long term goals of the build and a thick stick skin for those that lack vision.

And most of the time they do focus on one main class and slash 2-4 levels in other classes.

So far so good on helping new players OP. Just keep in mind to also allow room for other break points. Just because you might not i think it is a good idea to say 3 levels in a class or even 5 or 6, but it doesn't mean that some one else won't love it.

But at the same time you don't have to get super detailed ether. Gl

Impaqt
11-13-2009, 09:13 AM
Guides often fail to get their points across due to the infusion of Opinion rather than sticking to the facts.

And when Opinion is presented as Fact, its even worse.

mechgouki
11-13-2009, 09:25 AM
Guides often fail to get their points across due to the infusion of Opinion rather than sticking to the facts.

And when Opinion is presented as Fact, its even worse.

Agreed, but a strategy such as a build can't be presented as a fact, unless it is backed up by proof, am I right?

"This is a better build then the other." is something subjective. Strategies are usually based off experience, and not something scientifically proven.

Hey, I could be wrong here, you know.

What I'm saying, is that it can't really be called wrong unless you do a very in-depth analysis of why a particular setup will perform poorly compared to another, based on the likely situations that the build will face.

Strategies blur the line with facts and experience.

Impaqt
11-13-2009, 10:01 AM
Agreed, but a strategy such as a build can't be presented as a fact, unless it is backed up by proof, am I right?

But we're not talking about a specific build here in this thread... Build threads have their own demons. this is a guild to creating a build.



"This is a better build then the other." is something subjective. Strategies are usually based off experience, and not something scientifically proven.

Hey, I could be wrong here, you know.

What I'm saying, is that it can't really be called wrong unless you do a very in-depth analysis of why a particular setup will perform poorly compared to another, based on the likely situations that the build will face.

Strategies blur the line with facts and experience.

I never said anything was "Wrong" I said his opinion was being presented as a fact.
Its true that Disease and fear may not be all that important to the OP. that doesnt mean it should never be an option for anyone. Thats pots ya have to carry or items ya have to swap out. For some folks, the convience of never having to worry about those 2 things is indeed well worth taking the third level of Paladin.

xanvar
11-13-2009, 10:10 AM
I like how you are keeping it pretty simple. Anyone that is new to the game can benifit from this advice and as they gain experiance and better gear, 32pt builds and such they can branch off and do more complicated builds. Linking other more specific builds into the thread will help alot as well. Overall good starting points I think.

mechgouki
11-13-2009, 10:10 AM
But we're not talking about a specific build here in this thread... Build threads have their own demons. this is a guild to creating a build.


I never said anything was "Wrong" I said his opinion was being presented as a fact.
Its true that Disease and fear may not be all that important to the OP. that doesnt mean it should never be an option for anyone. Thats pots ya have to carry or items ya have to swap out. For some folks, the convience of never having to worry about those 2 things is indeed well worth taking the third level of Paladin.

Ah, valid point taken then.

EAB, he's not a troll if he can substantiate his claims.

WolfSpirit
11-13-2009, 10:24 AM
Fighter lv 12 is a HUGE Breakpoint. And there are great reasons why to stop there.
Awesome Build
12 Fighter Kenii 2/6 Paladin Knight of the Chalice 1/2 Monk.

Janth
11-13-2009, 10:34 AM
The value of 3 pally has been covered in the thread, but is irrelevant to this guide. The OP has done an excellent job in this guide with the discussion of breakpoints by illustrating which he feels are the most important and why. IMHO This is an excellent resource for new players. If you are going to invest 3 levels in pally, considering what you would sacrifice in terms of your other class, you would be advised to go ahead and take more levels of pally. If you have some idea in your head for an uber build that takes exactly 3 levels of pally then feel free to post it in the builds section and include you own mini guide as to why exactly 3 pally is uber... cheers.

Phidius
11-13-2009, 10:44 AM
Be on the look out for this guy. He is very insightful !! This guide is very useful!! Keep up the good work!!!

Fixed that for you.

Op, I'm eagerly waiting for your section Wizards :D If I might make a suggestion, how about listing the different levels, and what you get from each one of them. This way, readers can peruse the different sections, and decide for themselves what they are looking for.

Picking and choosing which levels to describe in your guide is just asking for your personal bias to creep in. Maybe just limit yourself to things that are not obvious (excluding additional HP, SP, etc...)

Bbrik
11-13-2009, 10:58 AM
Lso save a spot for the top builds out there :)

For example:

WF 2pally 2rog 16sorc
WF 2rog 18wiz
WF 2rog 18pally
Dwarf 2monk 18cleric
Halfling 2monk 6rgr 12fighter
Dwarf 1barb 19cleric
Dwarf 1barb 2fighter 17cleric
WF 2fighter 18barb

ect....

Impaqt
11-13-2009, 11:16 AM
The value of 3 pally has been covered in the thread, but is irrelevant to this guide.


Why do you feel its irrelevant?


The OP has done an excellent job in this guide with the discussion of breakpoints by illustrating which he feels are the most important and why.


Notice what you said there.. What HE feels.... THat is indeed the case... But its being presented as a guide, not what he thinks....


IMHO This is an excellent resource for new players.

Excellent! IMHO is a Perfect way to inform someone that it is Your Opinion and not based on any real evidence or facts.


If you are going to invest 3 levels in pally, considering what you would sacrifice in terms of your other class, you would be advised to go ahead and take more levels of pally.

Why? Yet another open ended statement. according to this "Guide" theres no reason to take anything in between 3 and 34 levels. There are several significant breakpoints in there.



If you have some idea in your head for an uber build that takes exactly 3 levels of pally then feel free to post it in the builds section and include you own mini guide as to why exactly 3 pally is uber... cheers.

Who said anything about that 3rd level making anything Uber? A Prime example here of taking things to the extreme. there are drawbacks and benefits to any level split. Most players could care less about being "Uber" and care more about the functionality of a build.

ArichValtrahn
11-13-2009, 11:25 AM
Does it matter what order you do things in?

IE, is a 2 monk / 18 cleric the same thing as an 18 cleric / 2 monk?

mechgouki
11-13-2009, 11:30 AM
Most players could care less about being "Uber" and care more about the functionality of a build.

I second this. Personally, I am more concerned with the survivability with a character rather than the DPS he can deal.

But perhaps if you were to supply an example of the Paladin having an above Level 2 Splash, it would convince them better.

Adrich, I think it affects the title. You know, whether other npcs call you Cleric or Monk in the end.

Impaqt
11-13-2009, 11:50 AM
Does it matter what order you do things in?

IE, is a 2 monk / 18 cleric the same thing as an 18 cleric / 2 monk?

THe progression can make a difference when leveling with Skill Point distribution and some feat selections. end game it makes no difference at all though. DDO Lists Character levels alphabetically. So a 18Cleric/2 Monk is listed that way because C comes before M in the alphabet.

a 18 Paladin/2 Monk is shown as a "2 Monk/18 Paladin" in your character sheet because M comes before P.

Janth
11-13-2009, 11:53 AM
In DDO the range of all these things is much wider, so much so that if you trend to much towards the middle you will find yourself unable to touch the end.


There are many levels that give added benefits in a class. Listing them all individually is pointless as they can be found in the compendium. I am still waiting to see why Pally three is so important to a build that it needs to be added as a seperate "break point". I think the OP did an excellent job of pointing out the disadvantages of taking pally 3 as it would not let you hit (insert another class) 18. And that is the point of this guide. To point out to new players what they are sacrificing by splashing haphazardly. To encourage new players to take pally 3 just because of the benefits without acknowledging the disadvantages is short sighted IMHO. For example, rangers get a new Favored enemy at Ranger 15. That alone does not make 15 at break point. If you are going beyond Pally 2, why stop at 3?

EDIT: Sorc 1/ Pally 3 / Ranger 16. IDK a high charisma ranger that can wand? - I tried to come up with a build that would reasonable use pally 3 and a splash of 1 to get back to an even amount for the primary class.

Aranticus
11-13-2009, 11:59 AM
This is mis-leading... STR is not the most important attribute for a paladin, even though they are a melee class... CHA is just as important. I'd rather have a paladin with a 16 STR and 16 CHA than one with a 18 STR and a 14 CHA.

Divine Might is better than strength.


Rest of it looks very good...

Basically, multi-classing is looking at what you give up and comparing it what you gain, and deciding which is more important to you....

When you splash paladin with two levels of rogue, you have to list out all the things that 2 levels of rogue get you, and then list out everything level 19-20 paladin gets you... and then compare them. and make your decision...

But you have to do the comparison. Too many people multi-class ad-hoc, with no idea what they are giving up at end-game, just looking at what they are gaining right then.

actually all you need is a base cha high enough with a +3 or +4 tome to hit the last tier of DM, anything excess is gravy

Impaqt
11-13-2009, 12:08 PM
Most players could care less about being "Uber" and care more about the functionality of a build.

I second this. Personally, I am more concerned with the survivability with a character rather than the DPS he can deal.

But perhaps if you were to supply an example of the Paladin having an above Level 2 Splash, it would convince them better.

Adrich, I think it affects the title. You know, whether other npcs call you Cleric or Monk in the end.

Heres one.. Down and dirty, Didnt fill in all the feats, just the ones required for the enhancments I wanted to take. Evasion Intimitank Build. Taking 3 Levels of Paladin and 3 Levels of Monk.

3rd level of Paladin adds Disease and Fear immunity plus raises his aura by +1 across the board for more AC and Saves.

3rd Level of Monk grants Path of Harmonious balance so he can whip out a Quarterstaff and whack a mob for a Healing curse or provide various Monk Buffs to start a fight.
Kensai 2 with Khopesh for great DPS, High Dex, Moderate Wisdom can provide a decent AC in Robes/outfits. You could even drop STR to 15 and raise Int so all it would take is a +3 Int tome to get CE Still Sittin at a 32 standing STR plus Kensai Damage and to hit enhancement is no slouch.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(14 Fighter \ 3 Paladin \ 3 Monk)
Hit Points: 361
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 17
Will: 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 27
Dexterity 15 18
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 11 14
Charisma 13 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 4
Bluff 1 5
Concentration 2 7
Diplomacy 1 3
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 1 3
Heal 0 2
Hide 2 4
Intimidate 1 5
Jump 3 8
Listen 0 2
Move Silently 2 4
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 0
Search -1 0
Spot 0 2
Swim 3 8
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)


Level 3 (Monk)


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Philosophy - Path of Harmonious Balance


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)


Level 15 (Fighter)


Level 16 (Fighter)


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Fists of Light
Enhancement: Disciple of Breezes
Enhancement: Disciple of Pebbles
Enhancement: Disciple of Candles
Enhancement: Disciple of Puddles
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness IV

Crann
11-13-2009, 12:21 PM
From the perspective of a new player, I'd like to thank the OP for the time he's put into this guide. It may be a little more helpful to point out greater degrees of detail for the break points of the different classes for those who do not know them. Also, for you more experienced players, are any of the capstones, or even 3rd tier enhancements "must-have" for a class. For example, I've extensively studied the Ranger/Rogue/Monk 18/1/1 build. I have tried a ranged focused build and a melee focused build and find that melee seems better, albeit at lower levels, so the capstone for ranger has no appeal for me. Is that the case for the rest of the capstones, and if so, why would you ever stay a pure class? Also, is Tempest III that good....is really worth going beyond 6th level in ranger? Or should I go 2 in monk or rogue for evasion?

Roziel_Longblade
11-13-2009, 12:21 PM
Most players could care less about being "Uber" and care more about the functionality of a build.

I second this. Personally, I am more concerned with the survivability with a character rather than the DPS he can deal.
I third this. So much talk is made about dps with little concern about survivability. IMO solid dps may get the job done slower than uber dps, but survivability means you are around to finish the job. Where the trade offs are good or bad is what is subjective.

A good guide will give you all the facts. A great guide will give you all the facts and clearly separate added opinions that are open for discussion.

WolfSpirit
11-13-2009, 12:30 PM
Bias..... yes there is bias. there are certain things I feel just dont work well when multiclassing or can be done better. I will have links so anyone can dig deeper if they choose but like I said this is for the begginer, not someone who knows what they want from the start.

-
The way you are writing this sounds much like:
"This is how I would make all new players play my way"
While I agree that all players should weigh carefully the pros and cons of multiclassing, I wouldn't be able to direct them to a "Guide" where the writer makes statements and admission of Bias such as the one above.
-
On a side note, most of your information was good. It just seemed to stop without giving an unbiased informative writeup on abilities gained per level.

burkoJames
11-13-2009, 12:38 PM
Notice what you said there.. What HE feels.... That is indeed the case... But its being presented as a guide, not what he thinks....


According to this "Guide" theres no reason to take anything in between 3 and 14 levels. There are several significant breakpoints in there.


There is not a single guide I have seen out on these forums which is completely objective. Once you start giving advice (which is what a guide does), you start giving opinions (IMO). Heck the whole idea of writing a guide requires you to have the opinion that people need it. (That statement also expresses an opinion, that people might not believe a guide IS needed, (I could keep nesting opinion disclaimers if you wish, but I think I will stop for now). The only truly objective guide I can think of is... ... ...the compendium. Which while if gives you information, doesn't really 'guide' you anywhere. How can it, anything suggesting how to use the info would begin to consitute an opinion.

By reducing the number of break points, the OP is keeping the new players this guide is aimed at from being overwhelmed. The assumption is this guide can give them a BASIS for making multiclass characters, and helping new players learn how to think about it.

If they use this single solitary guide to create every multiclass character they make in their career in this game, without thinking for themselves once they understand the mechanics, they won't benefit from a more inclusive guide.



If I might make a suggestion, how about listing the different levels, and what you get from each one of them.
We already have that. Its called the DDO Compendium. I use it heavily for my multiclass build studies. As I suggested above, we don't need a new compendium. This is a guide, which by its nature guides the person based on the author's (OP) beliefs.

Impaqt
11-13-2009, 12:42 PM
14 rogue/ 6 fighter - this combo hurts you as a rogue. Fighters only get 1 skill point per level and a rogue needs to support search, spot, disable, UMD and open locks at the bare minimum. For 6 levels you would have 1 skill point to divide amongst at least 5 skills, which means somethings gotta suffer and when called upon to open a door or chest or disarm a trap that is equal to your level, you may not be able to do it. Not to mention your attack bonus has already suffered. You would hurt yourself too much when you could get the same benefit with no drawbacks (or very minor ones anyway) with 18 fighter/ 2 rogue. 18 fighter/ 2 rogue is a capable fighter, who can probably pick a lock or use a heal scroll and has evasion. If we use cars as an example again 14 rogue/ 8 fighter is like an SUV with a sattelite dish on top that runs on eletric. It wants all terrain, with access to radio and internet at anytime but cant go far because it will run out of power if you drive more than a mile...... it works fine in the yard though.



There are literally Dozens of builds that can perform full rogue trap smithing duties with as little as 1 or 2 rogue levels. with 13 or 14 levels of rogue, its incredibly easy to keep essential rogue skills at high levels.

no one is going to make any kind of deep Multiclass rogue build with a 8 INT. So your "1 point"is easily going to be 3 or 4 points during those Fighter levels.

the 13 ROgue/6 Ranger/1Monk is one of the best builds in the game right now. 6 Ranger can easily become 6 FIghter for Kensai 1 and bonus feats.

Kilnedric
11-13-2009, 01:42 PM
As a new player, I love the idea of this thread. I'm an experienced MMORPGer and an experienced PnP D&D 3/3.5 player, so I know what makes good multiclassing, but also know that the MMO implementation must make for some suboptimal builds. This is exactly what I need to see. Thanks!

To throw 2 cents into the debate:

To everyone but the OP, it's his thread, so of course it's his opinion. Politely list other break points so people can read them too and move on. Wasting time arguing about RIGHT and WRONG of OPINIONS isn't too helpful.

To the OP, to make this complete, you might consider adding the break points people talk about here, because they are common, even if you consider them not worth it. You could maybe call out "lesser" vs. "greater" breakpoints, or state why you disagree with them.

Thrudh
11-13-2009, 02:13 PM
actually all you need is a base cha high enough with a +3 or +4 tome to hit the last tier of DM, anything excess is gravy

Which is 16 CHA... since 20 is what you need to thit the last tier of DM...

But then the OP states that strength is more important on a paladin and says it should be higher than CHA... Well a paladin with 17-18 STR AND 16 CHA is not going to have a lot of points left over for CON, DEX (if he wants to go TWF), or WIS...

I think a 16 STR and 16 CHR is the way to go for a pure paladin... If you're planning on multi-classing the paladin, then Divine Might III (18 base CHA needed) is all you can get and one could go with 14 or 15 CHA

Thrudh
11-13-2009, 02:18 PM
Also, is Tempest III that good....is really worth going beyond 6th level in ranger? Or should I go 2 in monk or rogue for evasion?

FYI - rangers get evasion at 9th level...

Check the compendium to see what each Tier III PrE does... some of them just cannot be missed... Frenzied Berzerker III for barbarian for instance is very very good... So is Knight of the Chalice III for paladins.

Tempest III gives an extra attack... so it increases your DPS by 12% I think (9 hits where you used to have 8?) That's pretty solid... you'd have to get something pretty good from the other class to make up for that.

captain1z
11-17-2009, 07:46 PM
Mostly done with this, still a lotta tweaking here and there but the bulk of it is there. Im not super forum savy so its not pretty either.

thanks for all who have commented and added to the thread and those who will fom this point on.

Im not well versed in Monks, Favored souls or bards so if someone wants to add them that would be great.

Also if you have a different opinion please post your thoughts as Im sure the whole is gonna help others build better characters.


If I could add just one more piece of advice to new players I'd add this

- Dont be afraid to quest without a cleric. Carry cure and other potions and usually you will be fine. Remember paladins, rangers and bards can use most wands and cast healing spells also. Learn to take better care of yourselves and your groups will be less frustating for the next cleric who does join you. Its not his sole responsibility to keep you all alive and its not his fault when you die.


Warforged are people to :)

zealous
11-18-2009, 10:21 AM
Instead of subjectively removing valid breakpoints, why not state good combinations? :D (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=209918)
e.g.
Fighter 20
fighter 12
rogue 13
rogue 19/monk1
ranger 18/rog/monk
monk 18+
paladin 18+
barb 18+
sorc 18+
FvS 18+
ranger 6
monk 6-7
paladin 6
bard...tricky

wizard 17*+
cleric 17*+

And good splashes i.e. 1-3, think you missed these:
barb/ftr/rog 1: Intim
ftr/rog 1:Haste boost I
rog 1: UMD, 1d6+3 SA
ftr/monk 1-2: 1-2 feats
monk/rog 2: evasion
monk 1: wis to AC
monk 3*: heal curse/"hero" buff/"blur" buff
barb 1: barb PA I, run speed, mini rage
(pal 1: mini aura)
(ranger/barb 1:sprint boost)


*Could be semi-risky depending on PrCs

Also think you might want to add a disclaimer about how useful wands are at higher levels and if it's really worth it to splash just for wand usage.

sly_1
11-18-2009, 09:32 PM
Nothing at all in here about bards (my fave class :) ), so here's my 2 bits:

bard breakpoints = 1,6, 7, 13, 15, 16, 18

bard 1 grants access to umd, along with inspire courage for a nice +1 ab and damage buff that lasts for 4 minutes. Only advisable for builds that can't spare 2 lvls to get umd, as rogue 2 is usually a lot better to get umd + evasion.

bard 6 opens up the only bard pre's, warchanter, virtuoso, and spellsinger. overall if only taking 6 bard levels warchanter is probably best as you can access the relatively awesome "ironskin chant" with this pre granting 5/- dr to all party members within range when you cast it. Also can get up to +2 cha from ap's at this level.

bard 7 grants access to lvl 3 spells and the 2 most awesome spells in the bard list: haste and displacement. If only taking 7 lvls strongly recomend to take extend spell to get a bit of duration out of these 1 awesome spells.

bard 13 grants access to both bard inspired attack and damage III, along with warchanter that's +6 ab and +7 damage to all party members. You can also take enough lingering song enhancements to get about 6+ min duration at this point. all morale bonuses and definitely a great party buff.

Bard 15 grants inspire greatness. +4 stacking ac for good duration with lingering song enhancements.

bard 16 for access to lvl 6 spells.

Bard 18 for mass suggestion, good for the cc bard who wants to dip into rogue for evasion in exchange for the capstone.

OldAquarian
01-24-2010, 09:31 AM
Very good guide
It is worth noting that rogue breaks are better if they are odd for backstabbing dice
You list 10 for the feat, and 12 for pre, but skip 13 which gives +backstab and +another feat
IMHO, drop 10 and 12 and just list 13, from what I have seen, it is a very popular break especially since acrobat only goes to PrE II

In general if a build makes sense at Pally 3 pushing it to Pally 6 makes more sense

Another thing I didn't see is the advice of taking off one level and seeing what you lost, and see if its better someplace else

Anyway, these are nitpicks, the guide as is is very worthwhile, nice job

ltlfield
02-06-2010, 03:35 AM
this one deserves a bump

BUMP!

Orratti
02-06-2010, 03:21 PM
Rgr 2 also gives the opportunity to easily reach manyshot by spending 1 feat on point blank shot and later 1 feat on manyshot if you have the prereq stats for it. I use this alot in my builds and makes the 2 lvl splash of ranger a powerful thing to add to a multiclass build aimed at versatility in combat with very minor class splashing.

Chilly76
02-07-2010, 02:09 AM
huh what?

yeah no...

Talon_Moonshadow
07-08-2010, 06:22 PM
This definately deserves a bump.

But I also want to add something to consider.

While people may hate you for doing so, Clr 7 is actually a nice break point. As it gives access to Divine Power and all the cure-all spells. (and Raise scrolls)
Clr9 gives Raise Dead, and I think Clr11 gives Blade Barrier.
But you will be an inferior healer, and that is all people want clerics for.....

Wiz 5 is a favorite of mine. 10 Min Blur, Shield, False Life, Invisibility. 1 Min Haste and Displacement. Decent scroll use of several nice scrolls. With the right combination of another class, this can be a very nice break point.
Wiz 7 or 8 is another nice one.
And maybe for a WF Wiz 11 or 12, for Tenser's, GH, and Reconstruct. (although Tenser's is better from scrolls IMO.)


Didn't notice what you had for Brd, but Brd 8 is worth considering for some builds too.
Mostly for Haste and Displacement. And because it fills in nicely with lvl 12 from something else.


Let me add: any odd lvl of Rog gives another d6 SA damage.
Pal3 has been mentioned already. No longer as popular as it was but still nice. I kinda like it with Rgr11....or Rgr9 as that leaves 6 or 8 lvls of another class. (say like Ftr to be somewhat conservative)(Rgr11/Pal3/Ftr6)

Dozel9
07-09-2010, 01:26 PM
Arcane spells
Arcane spells with a Somatic component may fail if you try to cast them when using armor or shields. The only exception is that Bards can cast in light armor without penalty. Resource management is important for a caster. Much like divine spells, arcane spells also have a difficulty class and are subject to spell penetration. Although instead of a wisdom bonus to the difficulty class a wizard will get an int modifier bonus while a sorc will get a charisma modifier bonus.

i read this on the DDO wiki, and wondering if i splashed one level of Bard so i could wear light armor with no penalty for casting spells?

thinking of splitting 18 Wizard with 2 Bard.

and is it worth even splashing Bard if that works if you also plan to be Elf/Drow Elf that can train to reduce arcane failure in armor?

Azuarc
07-09-2010, 03:27 PM
Very cool thread. Old, but some nice advice. To the more experienced folks out there, is the information still up to date?

Phidius
07-09-2010, 03:37 PM
...
i read this on the DDO wiki, and wondering if i splashed one level of Bard so i could wear light armor with no penalty for casting spells?

thinking of splitting 18 Wizard with 2 Bard.

and is it worth even splashing Bard if that works if you also plan to be Elf/Drow Elf that can train to reduce arcane failure in armor?

The no-arcane-failure from the 2 bard levels would only apply to the bard spells.


Very cool thread. Old, but some nice advice. To the more experienced folks out there, is the information still up to date?

Not completely - for example, the cleric PrE "Radiant Servant" is missing. I didn't go through the entire thread, though, so there may be more examples.

lorkar
07-15-2010, 06:27 PM
what about bards?

savingsoul
07-16-2010, 06:35 AM
Break points in fighter levels are 1/2/6/12/18 alignment any http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Fighter


I think a lot of this advice is still good, and it was very generous of the original poster. Anyway, my little addition is that a breakpoint exists at level 4 of fighter, where you can get weapon specialization.

Scalion
07-16-2010, 07:52 AM
I think a lot of this advice is still good, and it was very generous of the original poster. Anyway, my little addition is that a breakpoint exists at level 4 of fighter, where you can get weapon specialization.

I was thinking this too... both weapon specialization and another toughness enhancement I think. Though I think this may fall into the personal opinion category because most people would either take 2 fighter levels or go ahead and pick up kensai 1 with 6 levels.

Also the rogue info is a bit off. Rogues get sneak attacks every 3 levels, 1, 3 6 9 12 15 18... the poster said odd levels, but that's not the case.

OldAquarian
07-17-2010, 11:35 PM
Also the rogue info is a bit off. Rogues get sneak attacks every 3 levels, 1, 3 6 9 12 15 18... the poster said odd levels, but that's not the case.

Seems OP was correct for it to be every odd level where do you see every 3?

From: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Sneak_Attack
"A rogue gets +1d6 sneak attack damage at every odd level"