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susume_bachi
11-11-2009, 10:15 PM
Now that I'm within striking distance of getting a drow, I was looking around for a rogue/wiz build, but it seems that the best option is rog/ranger.

Is there any hope for a rog/wiz or am I gimping myself?

Quintun
11-11-2009, 10:29 PM
Now that I'm within striking distance of getting a drow, I was looking around for a rogue/wiz build, but it seems that the best option is rog/ranger.

Is there any hope for a rog/wiz or am I gimping myself?

It is a very common multiclass since they go together well. You are not gimping yourself that bad really.

captain1z
11-11-2009, 10:38 PM
rogue wiz is easy.

Go 19 wiz/1 rogue

Dont gimp your casting in favor of your rogue skills, the rogue skill are to enhance your abilty as a character...... adds an extra layer of usefullness.

Take rogue at level 1 and max out your skills. search, disable, open locks concentration if you can

Then progress as a wizard from that point on always adding points to those skills but now just focus more on search and disable adding 2pts open locks adding 1.

stats something like this:

str 10
dex 10
con 16
int 18
wis 12
cha 10

or as close to that as possible...... its just quick/rough numbers but the focus should be int and con.

This idea gives up evasion but if you want evasion and decide to take 2 levels of rogue you can do that and take that feat that lets you use you intelligence bonus to boost reflex saves I forget the name.

You are a wizard first with rogue skills anything else may not work.

Quintun
11-11-2009, 10:44 PM
rogue wiz is easy.

Go 19 wiz/1 rogue

Dont gimp your casting in favor of your rogue skills, the rogue skill are to enhance your abilty as a character...... adds an extra layer of usefullness.

Take rogue at level 1 and max out your skills. search, disable, open locks concentration if you can

Then progress as a wizard from that point on always adding points to those skills but now just focus more on search and disable adding 2pts open locks adding 1.

stats something like this:

str 10
dex 10
con 16
int 18
wis 12
cha 10

or as close to that as possible...... its just quick/rough numbers but the focus should be int and con.

This idea gives up evasion but if you want evasion and decide to take 2 levels of rogue you can do that and take that feat that lets you use you intelligence bonus to boost reflex saves I forget the name.

You are a wizard first with rogue skills anything else may not work.

DO not neglect spot. Search,spot and disable need to be maxed at least search and disable I guess you can dump spot a couple of times. Open lock can safely be ignored on a few level ups, but you still want some ranks in it.

As a new player he will not know where the traps are so spot is needed. Hell I would dump concentration to get spot since the idea of the caster class is avoid aggro.

Carlll
11-11-2009, 11:30 PM
Splashing only 1 level of Rogue is a horrible idea. You sacrifice the nice capstone for nothing.

Wiz 18/ Rogue 2 is ok. Your DC will be 1 lower than that of a Wiz 20 but get Evasion. A nice trade-off.

WF is a better choice than Drow.

Lorien_the_First_One
11-11-2009, 11:36 PM
Splashing only 1 level of Rogue is a horrible idea. You sacrifice the nice capstone for nothing.

Wiz 18/ Rogue 2 is ok. Your DC will be 1 lower than that of a Wiz 20 but get Evasion. A nice trade-off.

WF is a better choice than Drow.

This is good advice. Make sure you take Insightful reflexes if you go this route (it uses INT instead of DEX for your reflex save)

Drow does work for this build but the WF option gives self healing and more HP.

In all cases of Wiz/Rog take your first level as Rogue and your 2nd level somewhere around 8-12.

Now what this gives you is a Wizard that's almost as effective as a full Wiz but also has full rogue skills and evasion.

I know some people like Rog/Ranger but I really see no reason to go that route, if what you want is TWF damage dealing a Rog19/1Ftr can do the job for you better in most cases.

amyndris
11-11-2009, 11:54 PM
I feel that between a Drow and a 28 pt Warforge, the Drow is the better choice. WF are effectively 26 point builds while Drow are technically 32 point builds, but they start with a 20 Int which helps compensate for that 1 lost DC from the Wizard capstone. In addition, with 20 int you get enough skill points to keep UMD close to max which gives them healing options there.

The best choice of course, is 32 (30) point Warforged. You can go
Str: 8
Dex: 8
Con: 18
Int: 18
Will: 8
Cha: 8

and start with Con and Int at 18 which is crazy awesome along with self heals.

captain1z
11-12-2009, 12:03 AM
I feel that between a Drow and a 28 pt Warforge, the Drow is the better choice. WF are effectively 26 point builds while Drow are technically 32 point builds, but they start with a 20 Int which helps compensate for that 1 lost DC from the Wizard capstone. In addition, with 20 int you get enough skill points to keep UMD close to max which gives them healing options there.

The best choice of course, is 32 (30) point Warforged. You can go
Str: 8
Dex: 8
Con: 18
Int: 18
Will: 8
Cha: 8

and start with Con and Int at 18 which is crazy awesome along with self heals.

I would drop con 2 points and raise str and use those points to raise str to 14. That way you can carry more items and wont become helpless when hit by ray of enfeeblement. Its never good to dump 4 attribute in favor of 2.

Crazyfruit
11-12-2009, 12:53 AM
Splashing only 1 level of Rogue is a horrible idea. You sacrifice the nice capstone for nothing.

The ability to disable traps throughout the entire game isn't quite "nothing", especially with how they are on elite these days :) No more need to group with those squishy rogues who die the moment they get aggro, or people your group waits 10 minutes for to find out they have 1 search... also lets you get UMD high enough that you won't have to worry about buffing items for many things.

Mellifera
11-12-2009, 07:16 AM
The ability to disable traps throughout the entire game isn't quite "nothing", especially with how they are on elite these days :) No more need to group with those squishy rogues who die the moment they get aggro, or people your group waits 10 minutes for to find out they have 1 search... also lets you get UMD high enough that you won't have to worry about buffing items for many things.

I think he just meant that if youre gonna splash and skip the capstone, why just splash 1 rog when 2 rog its easier to max out your rogue skills AND you get Evasion.

susume_bachi
11-12-2009, 08:51 AM
Oh dear,

So basically something like 15Rog/5Wiz is not an option?

Seems like the idea everyone has is to play wizard with a splash of rogue and not the other way around.

Aumvaar
11-12-2009, 09:04 AM
So basically something like 15Rog/5Wiz is not an option?

I wouldn't bother, because the Rogue's UMD will allow him to use scrolls & wands quite effectively, so the Wizzie levels are kinda pointless, & I suspect you're losing out on Rogue abilities, like an extra feat or something. It doesn't seem worthwhile to me, but maybe one of the DDO Pros could prove me wrong :)

I think if you're going to multi-class a mostly Rogue character, you're better off splashing in a level or two of Fighter, Ranger, Monk, or Barbarian, & even then only 1 or 2 levels.

tihocan
11-12-2009, 09:08 AM
Oh dear,

So basically something like 15Rog/5Wiz is not an option?

Seems like the idea everyone has is to play wizard with a splash of rogue and not the other way around.
You probably lose more than you gain by splashing a few levels of wiz into rogue.

Nevthial
11-12-2009, 09:16 AM
Wiz 18/ Rogue 2 is ok. Your DC will be 1 lower than that of a Wiz 20 but get Evasion.

Your DC will be one lower only if you're not a Drow , or only if comparing it to a Drow Wiz 20. A Drow Rog 2 / Wiz 18 can still hit a 40+ INT.

Lorien_the_First_One
11-12-2009, 09:23 AM
Oh dear,

So basically something like 15Rog/5Wiz is not an option?

Seems like the idea everyone has is to play wizard with a splash of rogue and not the other way around.

No, that's almost certainly a bad option. What do you think the 5 wiz would give you, a couple short term buffs?

The 5 Rogue levels will cost you a lot including 3d6 of sneak attack damage on almost every swing, 2 rogue feats, -2 to saves vs traps, 10 hp, -2 to hit, -1 to reflex save, -1 fort save, loss of teir 3 PrEs (and T3 is where the fun stuff is), 30 skill points.

Krag
11-12-2009, 09:35 AM
Oh dear,

So basically something like 15Rog/5Wiz is not an option?

Seems like the idea everyone has is to play wizard with a splash of rogue and not the other way around.


Now this is what I call gimp.
Sacrificing SA, HP, BAB, skills to gain what? A bunch of low-level buffs with CL no better than from wand?

Edit: It seems I was a bit too slow.

susume_bachi
11-12-2009, 10:09 AM
No, that's almost certainly a bad option. What do you think the 5 wiz would give you, a couple short term buffs?

The 5 Rogue levels will cost you a lot including 3d6 of sneak attack damage on almost every swing, 2 rogue feats, -2 to saves vs traps, 10 hp, -2 to hit, -1 to reflex save, -1 fort save, loss of teir 3 PrEs (and T3 is where the fun stuff is), 30 skill points.

Heh. It's good to ask questions I guess. Many thanks.

The purpose of 5 Wiz would be to get the 2 level 3 spells displacement and haste. Other lower level spells would be CC and Otto's

Looks like it's either pure rogue or rogue/ranger then.

Any advice?

Crazyfruit
11-12-2009, 10:22 AM
The purpose of 5 Wiz would be to get the 2 level 3 spells displacement and haste.

You can UMD scrolls and potions when needed :) They don't last long, so one of those "boss fight coming up only" things.

Phidius
11-12-2009, 10:25 AM
Heh. It's good to ask questions I guess. Many thanks.

The purpose of 5 Wiz would be to get the 2 level 3 spells displacement and haste. Other lower level spells would be CC and Otto's

Looks like it's either pure rogue or rogue/ranger then.

Any advice?

Like others have said, there's not a lot that 5 Wiz gives that can't be substituted with UMDing scrools and wands, or Greensteel clickies (Displacement, Haste, and Blindness).

Rog13 Wiz7, however, is a different story. While you can find scrolls of Wall of Fire, it just not the same as being cast, and I use DDoor far more than I find the scrolls. Fire Shield with Extend is nice, too.

I have a similar Ranger/Wizard/Monk, but while he's effective and fun, he's not my MOST effective and fun toon to play.

Lorien_the_First_One
11-12-2009, 11:28 AM
Heh. It's good to ask questions I guess. Many thanks.

The purpose of 5 Wiz would be to get the 2 level 3 spells displacement and haste. Other lower level spells would be CC and Otto's

Looks like it's either pure rogue or rogue/ranger then.

Any advice?

D&D has a steep learning curve :)

Here's a few options:

19 Rog/1Ftr gives you almost everything a 20 rogue gets except a useless capstone and a couple skill points. The 1 FTR gives you full weapon proficiencies plus a feat, a great tradeoff. You will see plenty of these out there.

19 Rog/1Rgr Same as fighter except instead of a bonus feat you choose you get Favored enemy, bow strength, and cleric wand use without UMD (helpful at low levels). For me this a less powerful option than 1FTR but you asked about ranger.

13 rogue/6ranger/1monk This is known as a "tempest rogue". You give up some rogue sneak damage and rogue feats but can maintain all rogue skills and gain a bunch of really nice ranger feats and a bonus monk feat. This build has the potential of good DPS (arguably a little less or a letter more than the 19/1, depending what you assume) and the potential for good AC (although you have to grind a bit for that). You will see a bunch of these at high level.

20 Rgr - This is a TWF DPS machine that can bring some very nice short term bow DPS when needed. Ability to use all cleric healing wands. Once again, plenty of these out there.

If you want something rogue like I'd suggest the 19rogue/1ftr, but if you want the high AC, charge in first build then the tempest rogue can be fun.

There are about 4000 other versions out there, those are just some general flavors :)

Therigar
11-12-2009, 11:44 AM
Wizard/Rogue is a common multiclass and it is a good one.

The key rogue skills depend on INT which is also the primary stat for wizards.

You really only need two stats -- INT and CON. Use Insightful Reflexes as your L1 feat to compensate for lack of DEX. You definitely want 2 levels of rogue for evasion. Put left over build points into STR -- the post about carrying and being enfeebled has merit.

Progression is something like rogue, wizard until you get wall of fire, rogue, wizard to L20.

7-day_Trial_Monkey
11-12-2009, 02:47 PM
Oh dear,

So basically something like 15Rog/5Wiz is not an option?

Seems like the idea everyone has is to play wizard with a splash of rogue and not the other way around.

So few wiz levels is not worth it, but you can make a fun char that is not all wiz with a rogue splash.

http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/bebot/

That's mine. He will end up 10 rogue/10 wiz. I play him as a melee character mainly who has extra utility and survivability. The main thing to keep in mind with this kind of build is that any spell with a save is not worth casting. It's all about buffs and fighting in a firewall.

I was able to solo Wiz King with conquest at level 10 on this guy (level 12 quest). I've actualy only grouped 3 or 4 times with him and have been completing level appropriate quests (and plenty of stuff 2 levels above me) solo.

Tiberien
11-12-2009, 03:14 PM
(note- long time pnp player/gm, a few months DDO player)

I have a couple serious questions about the wiz/rog, specifically in regard to DDO, that I'd like answers for please :)

1- Why does everyone advocate the big con boost?
2- What's a "capstone" that would be missed out on?
3- What is good/bad from a mechanics standpoint for this idea:

I have a Drow Rog/Wiz, still lowish level but fun and seems effective so far. DEX and INT started at 18s and no minuses (10s). My concept is to keep the levels fairly even, which I guess could end up around 10-10 or maybe the 13-7 suggested above. It's nice to just splash some AoE acid around while attacking with my rapier (using weapon finesse) from a flank or backstab and casting featherfall has been a blessing, light armor doesn't cause fails too often at 15% and usually being sneaky or diplomatic has been ok for avoiding the worst agro. Rogue skills are maxed, concentration is close.

I was hoping for a nice versatile skill/utility spell specialist, but is it going to be gimped in level 11-20 adventures or still able to be useful?

Thx.

tihocan
11-12-2009, 03:21 PM
1- Why does everyone advocate the big con boost?
2- What's a "capstone" that would be missed out on?
3- What is good/bad from a mechanics standpoint for this idea:
1. Because rogue and wiz gain few HP/level, so if you start with low Con, at higher levels you'll be very squishy and will easily die in a couple hits or a failed reflex save.
2. A capstone is a L20 class enhancement, that you lose as soon as you are not pure anymore of course. The rogue one sucks. The wizard one is pretty nice.
3. In short, the good is you're more self-sufficient, and the bad is you're less useful in a group.

Cyr
11-12-2009, 03:23 PM
OP going mostly wiz with a 2 level splash of rogue is a good idea. Going wiz with a 2 level splash of monk is also a good idea. Going mostly rogue with splash of wiz is gimping yourself. Now the real trick is what you want to accomplish with your build. If you want to be an incredible spell caster with evasion, but don't care about traps (which you should not worry to much about since many people can do them in game or you can avoid them) or UMD then the monk splash has win written all over it. You also get two feats with that splash and the fun of actually having the potential of a real AC if you build with it in mind. Those two feats go a long ways. A good rule of thumb is pretty much any build which just has a little wizard in it is a bad move. Either go very heavy or not at all with arcane (unless you are going arcane archer and I can not endorse any of those builds as being worth it either).

7-day_Trial_Monkey
11-12-2009, 03:24 PM
A low con on any character is a pretty bad idea, unless you are a vet with plenty of gear/plat to twink with. Generaly you don't want less than 12 and many players will not make a character with less than 14 to start. Your goal should be 200+ hit points at a minimum, otherwise at end game every hit or couple hits will turn into an emergency situation for your group's cleric.

Capstone is an enhancement than can only be selected if you are a pure level 20 character.

See my post above for a link to that type of character. I like it, but many do not. I don't like weapon finesse myself. Having a low strength realy hurts your damage and with most mobs having dr at end game you won't have much dps.

Bbrik
11-12-2009, 03:46 PM
2rog18wiz WF is the way to go

rog at lvl 1 and 10

you have pure casting abilities max rog skills evasion self buff self heal good saves hp sp and self buff.

Stats should start 17con/int 12wis. 18con/int for 32 pointer. Max skills in search disable openlock and if you can rest into umd. It's fun to play and your a pure caster and pure rog so you take 2 spots and your self sufficient

captain1z
11-12-2009, 06:01 PM
5 levels of wizard gives you

3 1st level spells lets say

jump, shield, magic missle

2 2nd

blur, scorching ray

1 3rd

haste

At 5th level casting ability:

jump will give you +10 the same as a potion from a store
5 mins of shield on demand. same as a 5th level wand
3 magic missles but the damage will be very low..... you'd be better off throwing daggers
5 min blur same as a level 5 wand
1 scorching ray for 1d10 same as a wand
30 secs of haste same as any potion or item

what will happen is you will caste blur and haste on yourself at the start of a quest and the parties wizard will cast right on top of yours over-riding it because his blur will last for 30 mins and his haste for almost 3 mins

sooo not worth it....... this is an easy build and you have a good start just make sure to stay current on your rogue gear. Make sure you have the best rogue gear available for your level and +5 tools always. 1 level of rogues skill boost wont hurt you either.

plus you can hero or greater hero yourself when you need. :)

Lorien_the_First_One
11-12-2009, 06:30 PM
(note- long time pnp player/gm, a few months DDO player)

I have a couple serious questions about the wiz/rog, specifically in regard to DDO, that I'd like answers for please :).

Stats are very much inflated in this game, min/maxing is therefore much more important than in D&D where balance is often better.

Quintun
11-12-2009, 08:10 PM
(note- long time pnp player/gm, a few months DDO player)

I have a couple serious questions about the wiz/rog, specifically in regard to DDO, that I'd like answers for please :)

1- Why does everyone advocate the big con boost?
2- What's a "capstone" that would be missed out on?
3- What is good/bad from a mechanics standpoint for this idea:

I have a Drow Rog/Wiz, still lowish level but fun and seems effective so far. DEX and INT started at 18s and no minuses (10s). My concept is to keep the levels fairly even, which I guess could end up around 10-10 or maybe the 13-7 suggested above. It's nice to just splash some AoE acid around while attacking with my rapier (using weapon finesse) from a flank or backstab and casting featherfall has been a blessing, light armor doesn't cause fails too often at 15% and usually being sneaky or diplomatic has been ok for avoiding the worst agro. Rogue skills are maxed, concentration is close.

I was hoping for a nice versatile skill/utility spell specialist, but is it going to be gimped in level 11-20 adventures or still able to be useful?

Thx.

Many of the even level or close to it splits tend to lose effectiveness by mid level. Your buffs are less than a real caster, your fighting is less than in this case a real rogue. Your offensive spells are of no use and basicly you come to realize you wasted levels staying nearly even.

Sure at low levels the AOE acid has some decent damage, but at higher levels will not dent a mob.

Carlll
11-12-2009, 08:23 PM
1- Why does everyone advocate the big con boost?
Mostly because no other attribute is particularly important, so can as well put everything thats left into Con.
Personally im a huge fan of giving the Wizard decent Strength so that he can fight but most ppl are not.


2- What's a "capstone" that would be missed out on?
You get a "capstone" when you go 20 levels in 1 class. Some are good, some are bad.
The Wizard one is nice - +2 Intelligence and -1 mana for every meta magic feat, -1 per heightened level for Heighten. The Heighten part saves the most mana, and with mana regeneration (end game stuff) even a small discount can make your mana go a lot further.


3- What is good/bad from a mechanics standpoint for this idea:

I have a Drow Rog/Wiz, still lowish level but fun and seems effective so far. DEX and INT started at 18s and no minuses (10s). My concept is to keep the levels fairly even, which I guess could end up around 10-10 or maybe the 13-7 suggested above. It's nice to just splash some AoE acid around while attacking with my rapier (using weapon finesse) from a flank or backstab and casting featherfall has been a blessing, light armor doesn't cause fails too often at 15% and usually being sneaky or diplomatic has been ok for avoiding the worst agro. Rogue skills are maxed, concentration is close.
Pro: Trapmonkey who can do some minor buffs.
Con: Kills Rogue DPS, spells except buffs become meaningless quickly, overall gimped build; some players greatly enjoy being able to Haste themselves from mana so it's not all bad; But just considering the raw power of the build, it's horrible.


I was hoping for a nice versatile skill/utility spell specialist, but is it going to be gimped in level 11-20 adventures or still able to be useful?
It'll be useful if you're running without someone who can cast a real Haste (Wizard, Sorc, Bard) which wont be too often. There isnt much versatility because your build will do everything worse than other builds.

Preparing to run without a real caster may seem tempting but considering how gimped casters are at high levels, it doesnt make much sense to take away the few things they can do (and your build cant even do them well, mind you). Unless you intend to be really elitist and not allow casters into your groups...
Most groups allow 1 Wizard/Sorc/Bard into the group (while the Bard is the far preferable option and is actually helpful), so having a third-rate 30 second Haste to be cast from mana doesnt give you much.