View Full Version : Knowing What You Join

11-11-2009, 11:15 AM
Hello All ---

It is amazing when people join a guild - whether PD or not - and within a few weeks they want to change the core values of that guild. I have found this to be true mostly regarding the use of gear.

There are a lot of PD guilds out there and before you join you should research the guilds stance on gear and some of the other issues that may come in play.

This really saves a lot of grief. I can tell you from experience, most of the guild leaders in the PD world have played on other guilds and have found something they really didn't like - which was not negotiable in their mind that made them start their own place. Don't ask them to change - fidn one you feel you can agree with in principle. The other reason for splits are when playstyles or personality clashes make a splinter group from a larger PD guild on the same server.

It helps to read the rules.

PD Guilds divide SHARPLY over gear acquisition. Now the disclaimer. None of these rulesets are better - they are just different. Having played in many of these guilds I can tell you that the rules can really change the theme.

This is the key issue with most PD guilds and the game is totally different in a guild that has a rule set that allows the AH or Brokers and also allows buying consumable magic. DDO is a completely different game when you take out these three options. Those who allow the AH and Brokers are in one camp and this may open up different tempos and perhaps quest paths (some don't take this view) due to the attributes that the AH - the Brokers - and buying magic (throw in Hirelings too) possess.

To my knowledge there are two established PD guilds that I am well acquainted with that allow this more open ruleset regarding gear. They are The Sublime Guild on Thelanis (The Grandaddy Guild of all DDO PD Play) and Extreme Explorers on Sarlona. Each of these have rather open rulesets regarding gear and the Sublime Guild has less stringent rules overall. Again, I will only speak of the guilds I have run with or have had lengthy discussions with the leaders.

There are three larger guilds which have much stronger restrictions on gear, and would be Valhalla Permadeath Guild on Ghallanda, Mortal Voyage on Argo, and The Core on Khyber. Each of these gears disallow the use of the magic shops, the AH and the Brokers. They also disallow or limit trading of gear in quest and out of quest. They are also "Anti Twink" guilds in that you can't beef up your adventurer by passing your own stuff around. Of the three The Core is the most stringent. Having run with MV and being the leader of VPD these two guilds are comparable with slight - (but in PD world there is no slight) - differences - mostly regarding trading gear (MV for the most part disallows this out of quest and VPD allows some trading.

A new issue which has arrived is the Veteran Status. VPD has actually lost members over this (as well as the AH, Broker, Buying Magic stuff) since Turbine came out with this idea. As far as I know none of the major PD guilds have adopted this model- although some of the smaller guilds allow it. I know that VPD was having a lively debate about this - which is ongoing - but is soon to end. The same was occurring in The Sublime Guild. I can't speak for the other established Permadeath Guilds.

There are some other minor nuance rules that each guild has. Regarding death/resurrection The Sublime Guild has no restrictions as far as I know regarding enhancement resurrections, continuation in quests, and a limit to resurrections. Valhalla allows elven and paladin enhancements with restrictions, has a recall function for certain resurrections, and has a death limit. MV does not allow enhancement resurrections, has a recall penalty in certain cases and also has a death limit. (If I get something wrong it is faulty memory). I can't speak for EE or The Core but I would suspect that EE is closer to Sublime and The Core is closer to MV and VPD.

There are other smaller or less established guilds that have branched off - some amicably others less so - from larger guilds. By large I mean they have been around awhile - and have a consistent number of players every night. In a way all of the PD Guilds are from the root of The Sublime Guild -the granddaddy of us all. In almost every case gear of a split gear acquistion has been the crux of the matter. Sometimes it has just been an oil/water situtation, but it look around --- gear is there.

I'll give you a PD Guild Family Tree of the guilds I know of and based on my understanding of the issues

1) Sublime - branched into Mortal Voyage and Valhalla PD Guild (issue was gear acquisition)

2) MV - branched into The Core and a few other guilds (Issue was over gear acquistion - to the best of my knowledge)

3) VPD - has branched into a few smaller guilds (issues have been gear related and Veteran status and an oil/water thing)

While there are other issues - the common thread is gear. There are those who want to buy what they need/want to progress. There are some who feel the sword that is bought has no value. Within the second group there are those who will wait awhile until they find what they feel they need to progress and those who go ahead anyhow. Neither is wrong, neither is right. However, you will find that each of these paradigms lead to a very different gaming experience.

Candidly, you should look before you buy. Some have called me a Communist and accused me of having a my way or the highway rule because I don't react in the way people may want when they wish to change the core values of VPD. In a way the latter view is right. My retort has been recently - you were asked to read the rules and mission statement before you joined. That's the end of the story. I would suggest that prior to entering a guild you read the bylaws and make sure you can agree with it. I know that I speak for myself and being friendly with many of the PD guild leaders will take the liberty to speak for them - they are not going to change their core rule system - or many of their minor one to suit what you want. All you will do is make them angry. If they wanted to use the AH et al they would be in a place where it is allowed. If they wanted a loose or restricted ruleset they would be there and not have formed thier own sandbox. The key to my staying friendly with a lot of the other PD gulid leaders is tI don't play the way I want to play when I am in their sandbox. Actually I don't make a habit of going to their sandbox even if I have toys (adventurers) in there.

Again, I only speak for myself -but having spoken at length with othe guild leaders I think they would agree - I don't want people to join VPD who feel they would like to "tweak" our ruleset.

I'm begging you, please - go somewhere else. I really would rather just concentrate on enjoying the game with people who want to play in the same sandbox I enjoy. There are other sandboxes --- go there. When people start to complain about this or that - if it is a subject I have talked about before - I don't listen. I don't care anymore to do so as it is a waste of my time and the unhappy party.

Finally, a little class and decency goes a long way to prevent the development of hard feelings if you decide to move out of said sandbox with your feet. The same goes for guild leaders when they toss someone out of the sandbox - which does happen.

Best wishes to all ---- find the sandbox that suits you - and don't take out the paint the hammer and nails to change the sandbox you chose in the first place.

KG Wiking

11-11-2009, 01:02 PM
Nicely Said, from a Minor Player of a PD Toon. (In other word I run one Toon at a time in a PD group, Currently I'm on my 3rd one, (1st Death Ice Spiders held me until I was died, 2nd a Trap got me (Sliced & Diced))

11-11-2009, 01:57 PM
MY biggest Advice to those out there looking for the right fit, first and foremost spend ten minutes speaking with the guild leader and see if his personality matches with yours (sometimes conflict will be evident in the first ten minutes, this is not a fit for you), decide whether you want to be in a guild with gray area or black/white rules, read the rules and confirm whether this an always evolving ruleset or whater it is a firm ruleset with changes only made if absolutely necessary. Permdaeth is a serious time commitment so dont waist your precious time in something that will not end up being what you were looking for ****

To support other Permadeath guilds around the servers I will add several others not listed in the above post;

Roundtable Permadeath - Ghallanda Server (Very open Ruleset)
Red Dragon Permadeath - Argonessen Server (More open then other existing guilds on that server)
The Permadeath Guild - Orien Server (Very open Ruleset)
Cannith Server also has a guild not sure of the name though.

11-11-2009, 02:59 PM
Disclaimer: I am a (relatively new) member of the OP's guild

I am guilty of joining organizations and trying to make them "better." It usually means that you've found a place that almost perfect for you, but it's not quite the way you would have done it yourself. Whether the change is good intentioned or not, as KG says, it's usually that way for a reason, not because the leader just hasn't thought of your idea. The leader has taken the time to create the guild, recruit the members, and set up the rules. Like it or not, it's their guild.

I run into this same thing every baseball season. I coach youth baseball and there's always one or two parents (often well-intentioned, sometimes not) suggesting that I do something differently to fix a player's swing, improve his throwing, etc. Most of the time there is a good reason for why we do it the way we do. My answer is usually to just thank them for their input and go back to my way (sometimes explaining why, but tbh, not always). When people push harder, my response is something along the lines of "if you want to try that strategy out, I encourage you to go to the league and ask to manage your team -- we're always looking for new managers."

That said, Turbine changes are always going to cause conflict for the same reason. I don't think there's anyway around this. I might agree with everything about a guild's rules, but when Veteran Status comes, I completely disagree (not true in this case -- just an example).

So, I suggest that people read the rules of a guild and find one that has rules they can live with. If you can't find one like that, don't try to change it from the inside, just start your own. And I think leaders are just going to have realize that when game changing stuff is released, there will be some fallout. But a well-run guild will survive and soldier on, being made stronger in the process. People who quit over a single issue were likely not that committed in the first place.

11-11-2009, 03:02 PM
Run! Invasion of the wall-of-text monsters!

My eyes hurt.

11-11-2009, 03:47 PM
Regarding the other guilds I didn't list - I just stuck with those guilds where I have played. I have no basis to mention any other guild, nor do I feel compelled to advertise for them! :)

The biggest issue is finding a guild that fits your likes. While talking to the guild leader is not a bad idea - maybe from both perspectives - I know I'm not particularly interested in being a hiring manager - but I do like to group with newer members and that should give them a feeling for what the guild is about.

The biggest thing the new member should do is read the rules/mission statement if they have one and pick. Going into a guild - after seeing what is present in the bylaws - and then moaning about the rules is a crass and thoughtless endeavor. These are private organizations. Recently I was told that to take a position for an employer I had to sign certain waivers in my contract. I have a choice --- sign and join and live by it --- or not sign.

Moaning after the fact is never in good taste and becomes ponderous.


11-12-2009, 11:30 AM
Run! Invasion of the wall-of-text monsters!

My eyes hurt.

I know you're trying to be funny, but you make a good point.

If walls of text hurt, you're likely not a good candidate for PD. It's all about slowing down, reading the quest text, and being cautious. If you can't be bothered to read a bunch of text, you probably can't be bothered with the slower pace of adventuring in PD.

11-13-2009, 06:46 PM
One of the moves I thought showed great leadership was yours to create a type of governing system for your guild. Something less than autocratic (or whatever it is most guild leaders are). However, when I offered that up to my guild, I was made to realize that most folks don't want that. People don't care that much. I was told to keep it as is; Consult with those close to me, gather opinions from those not and make fair decisions in the best interest of the guild. For me, having a guild mission makes that easier. If you know nothing else about MV rules but understand and approve of the guilds mission, chances are, you fit in fine. With no mission, you are essentially scatter shooting and will end up with more players who feel disenfranchised. The biggest mistake I made in MV was initially recruiting players who didn't really want to experience the game the way I do. Although part of MV's mission is to be large and active, initially, I put too much emphasis on that and not enough on the environment for MV players.

11-14-2009, 10:59 AM
As time has gone by I have also made some changes to the Mission Statement to clarify it.

Mostly to make the focus of the guild stronger and very specific.

The mission statement is the absolute litmus test to any rule consideration.


11-18-2009, 03:34 PM
I recommend taking a few days to do the research. This might sound like alot of time, however, after reading 15 different rulesets, deciding which one best suits your needs / playstyle becomes a much easier task. It also beats playing in a guild for a period of time, and then finding out that your opinions did not coincide with the particular guild's values.