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View Full Version : How to make Reaver's Refuge a better selling adventure pack



sirgog
11-11-2009, 11:05 AM
Currently, this pack is seldom recommended to F2P players, and as such isn't all that likely to be purchased. I'd be surprised if its sales are even a quarter of those of Gianthold. Yet it contains some excellent quests

Here's some suggestions to make it more appealing. The main ones (for dragontouched armor) are at the very bottom.

Edit: I've made clearer that my comments about Enter the Kobold normal being harder than Amrath Elite are my opinion to avoid that debate derailing this thread; personally I feel a PUG EtK normal is more likely to wipe than a PUG of an Amrath Elite quest, assuming competent players.


Explorer areas:
These are generally good, but there's little incentive to explore them other than once for the dragon soul gems. To make these more appealing, up the XP awarded for completing all rares or all explorer points in an area to double what it is now. Also, make the same changes to the frost giants in Aussiercaex's Valley as I recommend in Prey on the Hunter.
Additionally, up the spawn rates on the Eerie Forest rare encounters - they seem to be extremely low.

Monastery of the Scorpion:
No real changes are needed here, although adding one or two unbound named items would be an excellent idea, and furthermore would prepare this quest in advance for future Epic-ification. Bound named items should not exist outside raids, they ruin the game's economy as they leave nothing to trade. Don't forget - one of the main reasons people buy the Restless Isles pack is to farm the unbound named items.

Enter the Kobold:
Currently, except in groups with extremely unusual composition, I find this quest is harder to beat on Normal than most of the Amrath quests are to beat on Elite, and harder to beat on Hard than any of the Desert quests are on epic. Most PUGs, even at level 20, insist on two or three evasion toons for normal, and will seldom take more than one melee that hasn't got evasion, and even with such a group are likely to wipe; possibly even so often they give up. Plus, any group that's even remotely close to being strong enough to beat the end fight finds the rest of the quest trivial.
This quest - or at least the end fight - really needs to be hit on the head, hard, with the nerf bat, to make it sensible for a level 17 quest.
I recommend making the Living Spells no longer respawn, and cutting the hit points of the Fire Elementals in the last fight by 70%. Also, make the trash tougher by giving the Paragon Kobolds 30% more HP, a precast Greater Heroism, and weapons that deal 6d10 fire damage on a critical hit (8d10/10d10 on hard/elite). The quest will remain challenging, but will be more consistent from start to finish, and will be more reasonable for typical PUGs to beat on Normal. Evasion characters will still be optimal, but non-evasion melees will no longer be left as lever pullers in there.
Of course, as well as the key changes, add two unbound named items to make repeat runs more attractive - an item similar to the Firestorm Greaves or Cloak of Ice would make a lot of sense here.

Prey on the Hunter:
This quest is generally well done, except for two things. Clearly a lot of developer work went into making the dragon battle, and there's not many of them in the game. But, there's pretty much no incentive to fight the dragons. The loot is unremarkable, and is eclipsed by a ten minute no-donut Mindsunder run.
In addition, the Frost Giants are dull to fight - they have enormous hitpoints, and deal very little damage to players. Fighting foes with enormous HP remains entertaining in the Epic dungeons, as the foes hit hard enough to be a threat. The Frosties are dull to battle, however, and so most players simply zerg past them.

Two suggestions:
Drop the HP of the Frost Giants by 60% on all difficulties, but make their attacks (melee and ranged) and spells deal 50% more damage. They'll be quicker to kill but more entertaining to fight, and will pose a similar overall challenge to what they pose now. Note - these changes may force a slight retooling of the fight against Kalijarne, in particular Aussiercaex may require more HP (or better AC and higher Reflex and Will saves) in that battle, but she should not benefit from these if we fight her - remember, she's only had a moment to tend her injuries.
Secondly, add items to the Dragon Hoard. As a suggestion, consider adding two named items - one dropping in any chest, one only in the Hoard, plus giving the dragon hoard a slim chance - say 1% normal, 2% hard, 3% elite - to drop a random, bound-to-character +3 tome.

Stealer of Souls:
This quest really should be changed to level 19 or even 20 (just as WW and the Abbot were pushed up in level), as that would more accurately reflect its actual difficulty. I don't recommend any changes to the actual quest itself, but would add some extra items to Sor'jek's loot, particularly on hard and elite (as noone runs this quest on those difficulties at all).
I'd add named items - one themed to each element (Earth/Acid, Cold, Fire, Air/Lightning) that drops in each section chest, and add a chance at an unbound Teleport clicky (like the Royal Guard mask) to the extra chest that appears on Hard and Elite, and a modest chance (say 5%) of pulling a bound +3 tome to the Elite-only chest. This provides a reason for those players that already have their perfect Sovereign Rune to want to rerun this quest, as at present it is extremely difficult to fill a group for it. Plus, the +3 tomes on Elite give level 20 players something other than Epic quests and the Shroud to run.

Dragontouched Loot System:
The Dragontouched Armor loot system has been very unpopular with players. A minority of players do like it for the fact that you can quickly get a solid set of armor from it (example: my new Warchanter has run each quest once, and is now the proud owner of a set of robes with Destruction, Crushing Wave Guard and Resist Lightning 30 - a big improvement on my old Elemental Mithral Breastplate from Tempest Spine; and I intend to keep Destruction). However, this positive is eclipsed by two major negatives - the fact that getting a perfect set together requires enormous grinding with no end in sight, and the fact that to aim for something 'perfect', you need to sacrifice great mods you might have rolled (example: you want Radiance Guard on your Rogue's armor, but have Melodic Guard which you find to be worthwhile but not as good as Radiance. If you grind Sovereign Runes, you will lose Melodic Guard and may end up with something useless. Worse still, you might end up with something like +20% threat that is seriously detrimental to your character and makes your DT armor unusable until you get a new Soverign Rune.)

Suggestion:
Divide runes into several categories - example: Melodic Guard, Radiance Guard, Dodge +3, Insight +4 AC and others like them all become Sovereign Runes of Defense. That way, players can trade the runes they know they have no use for in the chest with other players - so players who are dead-set on one modifier can get there more quickly, and players at least feel there's a good chance of progress every time they loot a new rune that's of the type they need.




There you have it - a few suggestions to make this pack more enticing, and presumably better selling.

Hafeal
11-11-2009, 11:27 AM
Thanks for taking the time to write this up. I like the suggestions.

It seems to me that for many players, the new content from EU's launch, Update 1 and raids (Shroud, DQ in particular) are still the place to be for high level characters. The Path of Inspiration is relatively easy, good loot for those looking to pad their coffers.

The number of groups running these quests [Reaver's Refuge] seems to have dwindled to me and is now the province of guild runs.

Maxou69
11-11-2009, 11:39 AM
Kobold on normal is harder than any Amrath quest on elite?

You wrote a lot of good stuff but this affirmation is false IMHO

I can solo Kobold on elite with my FS18monk2 with no problems. I guess the fact I was solo mobs had less hp (not sure about elite tho) But come on, on normal it's a piece of cake, even if you are in a bad party, let them die and do the job.

sirgog
11-11-2009, 11:54 AM
Kobold on normal is harder than any Amrath quest on elite?

You wrote a lot of good stuff but this affirmation is false IMHO

I can solo Kobold on elite with my FS18monk2 with no problems. I guess the fact I was solo mobs had less hp (not sure about elite tho) But come on, on normal it's a piece of cake, even if you are in a bad party, let them die and do the job.

I stand by what I said about that quest's difficulty relative to other quests in the game. Only characters with Evasion and extreme burst self-healing can handle that end fight solo.

FvS18/Mnk2 or Clr18/Mnk2 builds are a bit of an exception, but with a build like that I can see you soloing Weapons Shipment, Wrath of the Flame, Sins of Attrition and A New Invasion easily on normal and hard, and possibly Elite too.

I'd rather be a cleric in a PUG Sins Elite than in a PUG EtK, as at least in Sins we are unlikely to wipe even if I use mana pots - in EtK, a wipe is quite likely *after* you have burned mana potions trying to keep people alive through the fireballs.

EtK's end fight has (in 6 player normal) about 6 fire elementals spamming 140+ damage Delayed Blast fireballs; living spells spamming Meteor Swarms that deal significant unavoidable damage (I think it's about 70-100 no save damage, plus a big chunk of damage that can be prevented by Evasion), and since Mod 9 there is now no way to keep the living spells under control save the hard-to-land Ooze Puppet. I've been killed in there on a Cleric with over 500 HP that had a Fire Shield Cold up, and was spamming quickened heals on myself - the incoming damage was just that much.

Dretharis
11-11-2009, 11:57 AM
I like your ideas, and wish to subsribe to your newsletter :)

In all seriousness though, I'd like to highlight this point:


Bound named items should not exist outside raids, they ruin the game's economy as they leave nothing to trade. Don't forget - one of the main reasons people buy the Restless Isles pack is to farm the unbound named items.

I've never been a fan at all of the "bound loot" system for loot; it waters down the value of currency and other items, as bound loot tends to consist of the most desirable or powerful equipment available. In doing so, it weakens and marginalizes the game's economy - there's a reason so many people ignore trading, or call plat "worthless."

The shroud's popularity I believe is evidence of this - in essence, you get "unbound raidloot" in the form of the ingredients, as you can trade them as much as you'd like prior to crafting. Many people value other items in terms of ingredients, and no one's ever disappointed to pull a scale. Alternatively, if you're running for example reaver, and you've already got a woo-stick, another pull doesn't do much for you.

I think the devs are starting to pay attention to this issue, they seem to be experimenting with different loot systems - the system in the refuge is pretty awful, but the new BtA system (in particular in mindsunderer) is an improvement, and epic crafting ingredients flagged as unbound is a step in the right direction.

As for the quests, I'd agree wholeheartedly on the addition of named loot, in particular for the optional Prey chests - I'll be honest, I've always wanted to try fighting the dragons at the end for fun, but I can never convince a group to do it, and I understand completely why they wouldn't want to. It's a huge waste of resources with little reward.

The difficulty of the quests seems to have been designed with the idea of getting players to use alternate tactics/spells, for example ooze puppet in Kobold or FtS on giants. I think that's a good idea, but it seems they just went a little overboard. I'd just suggest a slight nerf to these, and I wouldn't remove the respawn on living spells - for intentionally difficult high level quests, I'd argue specific character requirements are acceptable, especially given the ease we have in swapping spells compared to PnP.

On the categorical organization of DT armor, I had actually proposed the same thing about a week ago - I agree that's probably the best way to fix it, as it allows the devs to maintain the "lottery" aspect, but diminishes the ridiculous grind and painful reaction to useless or detrimental mods.

I'd reccomend instead of making seperate Sovereign drops, implement a token system - have the quests drop "Eldritch Essences" or "Sovereign Trophies" or whatever you want to call them, and allow players to exchange said tokens at the NPC by the alters for the appropriate rune in a selected category.

moops
11-11-2009, 12:12 PM
Very good post :)

I too would pug any Amrath Quest Elite and even Epic Quests, before ETK Normal on my cleric-- I used to do it on elite, but with the changes its extremely non evasion friendly even on normal. And while there are tactics that I know my guild and friends can use with smooth results, pugs tend to go disastrous employing these, you never know if they have what they really say they have for weapons/spells/DCs on spells. Also, it Might be easier to solo as one only has to heal one person instead of keeping 6 people alive.

Angelus_dead
11-11-2009, 01:59 PM
I stand by what I said about that quest's difficulty relative to other quests in the game.
Pop quiz: What is dangerous about Barnizdu elite?

Pro tip: Your suggestions might get a better response if they weren't accompanied by hyperbolic claims exaggerated past the point of hilarity.

Angelus_dead
11-11-2009, 02:21 PM
Bound named items should not exist outside raids, they ruin the game's economy as they leave nothing to trade.
Newsflash: DDO's economy is bad. Avoiding a bad system is good.



Also, make the trash tougher by giving the Paragon Kobolds 30% more HP, a precast Greater Heroism, and weapons that deal 6d10 fire damage on a critical hit
That would be further encouragement for players to not even visit most of the quest, and instead just jump directly to the overhead bridge.


The loot is unremarkable, and is eclipsed by a ten minute no-donut Mindsunder run.
Lol, what do they do to drag it out to 10 minutes?


In addition, the Frost Giants are dull to fight - they have enormous hitpoints, and deal very little damage to players.
False and false. Their hitpoints are managable, and their damage is substantial. The design problem with Frost Giants is that the Cleric variants are too much more threatening than the others.


The Frosties are dull to battle, however, and so most players simply zerg past them.
Incorrect. The real reason people run by them is that the frost giants respawn infinitely. Obviously you have to run past instead of killing them; that's how the quest was designed.


Stealer of Souls:
This quest really should be changed to level 19 or even 20 (just as WW and the Abbot were pushed up in level), as that would more accurately reflect its actual difficulty. I don't recommend any changes to the actual quest itself
The difficulty in SOS is almost as imbalanced as in ETK.

However, the most important problem with SOS is something you didn't mention here: the reflagging mechanic. People would play the quest as it is, if they didn't need to reflag through the other three (and give up 1-2 inventory spaces while partially reflagged).


This provides a reason for those players that already have their perfect Sovereign Rune to want to rerun this quest, as at present it is extremely difficult to fill a group for it.
The main cause of that difficulty is reflagging. Many people would be very happy to join your group, except that they can't get into the dungeon.

Battleworm
11-11-2009, 02:37 PM
Scrap that whole pile of turd and pretend it never existed.Plus the armor in mindsunder beats playing lottery for ever for nothing and burning out on the game.

Angelus_dead
11-11-2009, 02:40 PM
Plus the armor in mindsunder beats playing lottery for ever for nothing and burning out on the game.
The Mindsunderer armor is not impressive, at least without a psionic upgrade on it. It takes less time to get a DT armor with random powers in the three slots, which will give you more AC and probably one non-useless ability.

Battleworm
11-11-2009, 02:45 PM
The Mindsunderer armor is not impressive, at least without a psionic upgrade on it. It takes less time to get a DT armor with random powers in the three slots, which will give you more AC and probably one non-useless ability.


but then i would need to farm the 6 gems,get the 3 essences...assuming i cared about ac I guess it would be better but My FvS wants the medium armor with displacement resistance 5 and jump 10 (and other fluff)

Would much rather farm mindsunder and collect all the named loot rather than that mind blowingly boring quest chain.And i don't see how featherfall,exceptionnal intelligence +2 and superior combustin whatever would help me - that has been my DT history so far.

moorewr
11-11-2009, 02:51 PM
My band-aids for Reaver's Refuge:


Make the draconic runes (at least) trade-able or bound to account.
Make the runes and essences bound to account.
Have the NPC accept two eldritch runes in exchange for a Tempest Rune, and three tempest in return for a sovereign. Or have him exchange draconic runes for the others. Something.
Also, make it so that you know the effects of runes that are the same as runes you have already used. That cuts down on the aimless repetition. Or even simply prevent repeats of effects on a given DT item.
Also, Fix the narration in Monastery so we know who the hell is talking and what they're talking about. Who's try to help us? Why are we fools to help them???
One more: once flagged for sor'jek, you stay flagged.

moorewr
11-11-2009, 03:06 PM
I'm back:

Another thing I want to see (in many places, but here most of all) - the blanket immunities on giants in the refuge should be subject to dispel magic and disjunction. It's the principle off the thing.

Dretharis
11-11-2009, 04:18 PM
Newsflash: DDO's economy is bad. Avoiding a bad system is good.

Firstly, why is it bad? What constitutes a bad MMO economy, in your opinion, and what would constitute a healthy MMO economy?

The largest problem I'd identify, given the same question, is inflation - DDO does indeed suffer from it.

However, a significant portion of that inflation is primarily because of said bound items. As I mentioned above, they frequently obsolete non-bound items, discouraging trading, and therefore significantly decreasing the effectiveness of the AH's plat sink. We could probably use another plat sink or two, but I'd guess that if the AH were more popular, we'd see a significant reduction in the total amount of plat available ingame.



That would be further encouragement for players to not even visit most of the quest, and instead just jump directly to the overhead bridge.

I'd agree strongly here; every aspect of the quest doesn't necessarily need to be challenging.



Lol, what do they do to drag it out to 10 minutes?


I'm guessing he was going for a generous estimate here, which is a reasonable thing to do.



The difficulty in SOS is almost as imbalanced as in ETK.

Not particularly; I'd argue SoS is relatively well-designed, from a difficulty perspective. It seems as if it's designed to encourage the usage of a variety of different general character roles/classes, while not making the quest impossible without an "ideal" party makeup.


However, the most important problem with SOS is something you didn't mention here: the reflagging mechanic. People would play the quest as it is, if they didn't need to reflag through the other three (and give up 1-2 inventory spaces while partially reflagged).

I highly doubt that's the primary issue. The vast majority of players are aware of the usage of the fifty draconics to avoid Kobold/Monastery. I doubt it was an accident that they made it easy to skip the first two quests which offer the lowest tier of rune. Prey is a relatively quick run, comparable to the twilight forge, VoN 5, etc. Any issue with Prey being too much of a hassle is merely player perception of it as such due to the lack of a direct link between the two quests. It'd be nice if you didn't have to re-run Prey, but it's a reasonable requirement.

While it's true that you have to reflag all three quests after you first obtain your armor, I'd argue that it's unlikely that one would've already obtained the eldritch effect desired on their dragontouched armor from the initial run, and neither quest is particularly long. However, the fact that a player is so unlikely to have found a desired effect is a significant issue.


The main cause of that difficulty is reflagging. Many people would be very happy to join your group, except that they can't get into the dungeon.

The main cause of that difficulty is the loot. It's a classic comparison of an integer reward versus a random reward; it's incredibly painful to grind out the desired effects, if only because there's no way to know when you'll get the effect you want. Also, if one were dedicated enough to grind out the armor desired, why re-run any of those quests (beyond helping others)?

The useful items (runes) in the quest are bound, and you already have them, so you have no use of them - see the problem with bound loot that I mentioned earlier?

The best way to fix this in my opinion is to institute the token/rune category system I described above. If not that, decent named loot available (in particular for the optional dragon fight and SoS) could help, and some of the suggestions made by moorewr and the OP would certainly help as well.

Junts
11-11-2009, 04:23 PM
You have good ideas, gog, but you drastically over-estimate the difficulty of enter the kobold; the quest can be soloed by a competent caster or evasion type, and the idea that the end fight is difficult is laughable.

Sure, some characters are pretty ineffective in there, but it takes very little to do the end fight easily, and people who nitpick their groups for this quest are straight up fools.

Angelus_dead
11-11-2009, 04:51 PM
Firstly, why is it bad? What constitutes a bad MMO economy, in your opinion, and what would constitute a healthy MMO economy?
Uh, the answer is "its fun".

If you want a longer answer, that would be 10-20 pages, and I'm not going to do that here.


The largest problem I'd identify, given the same question, is inflation
To say that indicates using a far too narrow perspective, and drawing unwarranted analogies to mainstream economic theory instead of focusing on game design.


Not particularly; I'd argue SoS is relatively well-designed, from a difficulty perspective.
What's good about 4 out of 5 sections being nearly harmless, and one being highly lethal? What's good about a mega-hitpoint regenerating boss whose vulnerabilities are totally different from those used to defeat the rest of the quest?


I highly doubt that's the primary issue.
But yet, it is the primary obstacle. In fact, it's virtually the only obstacle.

To understand why, imagine that someone was asking you for help in Reaver's Fate, but that each time you entered the raid you'd have to reflag with 3 dragons to get in again.


The main cause of that difficulty is the loot. It's a classic comparison of an integer reward versus a random reward; it's incredibly painful to grind out the desired effects
That is so far wrong that it suggests you don't know the topic that's being discussed.

The "difficulty" under consideration here is the difficulty of recruiting other players to help you in Stealer of Souls, and that is almost entirely due to the need to reflag to enter the quest. The complexities of how you reflag and what parts could be avoided are mostly irrelevant. All that matters is to notice that reflagging is not trivial, and that you can't enter SOS until you do.

The dragontouched armor mechanic is a separate topic entirely: regardless of whether a potential party recruit is working on DT armor, has already completed it, or is uninterested in anything but Starter Rags, the fact remains that he can't help you do the quest unless he himself has reflagged.

sirgog
11-11-2009, 09:26 PM
You have good ideas, gog, but you drastically over-estimate the difficulty of enter the kobold; the quest can be soloed by a competent caster or evasion type, and the idea that the end fight is difficult is laughable.

Sure, some characters are pretty ineffective in there, but it takes very little to do the end fight easily, and people who nitpick their groups for this quest are straight up fools.

Several players have soloed Wiz King Epic (myself not one of them), or elite Sins of Attrition, or elite A New Invasion, but I wouldn't call any of those quests easy even with a group of six. Seldom in these quests are there moments where a player rolling an unlucky 1 will lead to a party wipe.

On the other hand, EtK normal, in a group with only 1 evasion character, has plenty of situations where rolling a 1 is likely to lead to a wipe. The evasion toon that is holding aggro on the elementals and trying to keep the Living Spells at 0 Str will roll many 1s over the course of the encounter - but if two are in rapid succession, they will probably die and take the rest of the party with them.

In addition, the standard strategy uses a borderline exploit method of hiding a cleric in a spot where poor enemy AI doesn't notice them - somethnig I don't notice Amrath elite groups doing.


Regardless of whether you feel it is easier than, say, elite Sins, or you feel it is harder as I do, however, I think it's pretty safe to say that this quest (and to a lesser extent SoS) are far too dificult to be called level 17 quests.

Junts
11-11-2009, 09:34 PM
Several players have soloed Wiz King Epic (myself not one of them), or elite Sins of Attrition, or elite A New Invasion, but I wouldn't call any of those quests easy even with a group of six. Seldom in these quests are there moments where a player rolling an unlucky 1 will lead to a party wipe.

On the other hand, EtK normal, in a group with only 1 evasion character, has plenty of situations where rolling a 1 is likely to lead to a wipe. The evasion toon that is holding aggro on the elementals and trying to keep the Living Spells at 0 Str will roll many 1s over the course of the encounter - but if two are in rapid succession, they will probably die and take the rest of the party with them.

In addition, the standard strategy uses a borderline exploit method of hiding a cleric in a spot where poor enemy AI doesn't notice them - somethnig I don't notice Amrath elite groups doing.


Regardless of whether you feel it is easier than, say, elite Sins, or you feel it is harder as I do, however, I think it's pretty safe to say that this quest (and to a lesser extent SoS) are far too dificult to be called level 17 quests.

You dont have to weak/enfeeble them all .. just grab the aggro and run in circles like a madman, making liberal use of going under the arch

I almost soloed this quest with a lv 13 character, and went back and buzzed it without difficulty after 16 on my way up to 20; characterizing it as competitive with raiyum (which I've soloed all of except for the wiz king), elite sins (done that) or elite invasion/bastion (2nd has been done, never seen the first) is misleading .. hell, this quest can easily be done with no one having evasion as long as your caster has ooze puppet, which is another simple method of completing. For that matter, the only spell that has to be neutralized is the meteor swarm .. even a caster with fireshield can easily kite all 3 elementals and all the other spells while the party kills desaga, and should have no problem scroll healing itself.

I can't understand why you exaggerate the difficulty of ETK so much; what it is is incredibly unforgiving to people without good knowledge of the quest and/or good mobility skills and/or poor characters, it is not a difficult quest by any standard. Elite is a bit more painful, but still no more difficult than similar quests with the kind of group that ought to run elite.

Are people on your server really that afraid of this quest?

if you are actually rolling most of the saves against the mobs in ETK, you aren't doing it right.

BlackSteel
11-12-2009, 01:51 PM
i agree with alot of ur suggestions

except one: kobold isnt that difficult at all. all you need is one wizard for the living spells and the quest becomes a joke. The fire elementals can be managed by several different methods; easiest being having the same wizard if a wf run them around with cold shield up, or simply have an evasion tank kite them in the hallway.

with ooze puppet the quest can easily be done with 0-1 people with evasion.

since the last changes tho, I wouldnt recommend this quest w/o an arcane with that spell. Yes its doable, but not nearly as easy.

And dungeon scaling makes alot of quests a joke; enemy damage is so completely nerfed while solo that bragging about doing quests solo arent a huge achievement unless you're doing them on elite/epic. (or they happen to be raids)

kingfisher
11-12-2009, 02:00 PM
anything they do to improve the dumb-as-hell-dt-lottery system would be an improvement. whats the big deal with just letting us know what each rune does as soon as we loot it? or even in the chest? what would this possbily hurt?

other than the loot system the entire area is a plus; fun, short, profitable, and repeatable quests, 4 decent explorer areas, and a fun and challenging 'raid'. sadly the loot system and the possibility of a nightmare grinding situation cancel out all the good stuff.

moorewr
11-12-2009, 02:03 PM
The Mindsunder points the way.. require three essences from the party instead of each character - either to open the quest or to just access the sovereign rune chest.

That way you'd still generate repeats of all the flagging quests without worrying about this or that character having all the essences again.

sephiroth1084
11-12-2009, 02:18 PM
Very good post, though I think others have made better suggestions regarding a fix to the DT armor situation--the random element should be gotten rid of or augmented far more than you suggest.

Pyromaniac
11-13-2009, 06:06 AM
My first suggestion is to fix monestary, as the puzzle/air shafts seem borked atm.

Symar-FangofLloth
11-24-2009, 10:07 PM
So....
I bought this, who knows when. Bought all the high-level things. (Bought everythign except Devil Assault, VoN, and Titan. And I'll probably buy the latter 2 eventually.)

And I have a 16 Bard as my highest. Returning player.

I did manage to get three gems, and I visited the refuge long enough to wander aimlessly, and cash the gems in. And an explorer area opened up. (Which I hastily ran away from.)

I haven't a clue what level, or what quests, or what anything even is out here.
All the LFMs for the quests that are mentioned in this thread are always for 18+, or for "know your way in progress". Assuming those quests belong to this. (I don't know. I'd assume they do based on this thread. I was gathering they were Shavarath quests prior to this though.)

And my guild hasn't been online much recently, and mostly running lowbies (which I have been, too, though partially from a lack of higher level things).

I know this isn't the best place to put this, but, can I get some information on this, please?

QuantumFX
11-24-2009, 10:18 PM
OP: Enter the Kobold would be a lot better for non-evasion types if the mobs didn't respawn. Ever.

Prey on the Hunter: The Command of Sorjek buff is complete ******** that unnecessarily nerfs monks way more than any other class. (It hampers WoE, MoBB and Stun effects.)

Dragontouched crafting system: If it worked like the epic crafting system then it would be worthwhile. Until then the lottery format is unnecessarily tedious as you have no goal to “work” for, only one that you can “hope” for.

sirgog
11-24-2009, 11:03 PM
So....
I bought this, who knows when. Bought all the high-level things. (Bought everythign except Devil Assault, VoN, and Titan. And I'll probably buy the latter 2 eventually.)

And I have a 16 Bard as my highest. Returning player.

I did manage to get three gems, and I visited the refuge long enough to wander aimlessly, and cash the gems in. And an explorer area opened up. (Which I hastily ran away from.)

I haven't a clue what level, or what quests, or what anything even is out here.
All the LFMs for the quests that are mentioned in this thread are always for 18+, or for "know your way in progress". Assuming those quests belong to this. (I don't know. I'd assume they do based on this thread. I was gathering they were Shavarath quests prior to this though.)

And my guild hasn't been online much recently, and mostly running lowbies (which I have been, too, though partially from a lack of higher level things).

I know this isn't the best place to put this, but, can I get some information on this, please?


The quests in the Refuge are all level 17, but are all significantly harder than the level 18 quests in the Inspired Quarter.

Monastery of the Scorpion is quite doable without prior knowledge in a group of level 15-18s, just take a rogue with solid trap skills with you, and take it *slow*. Puzzles will be tough, and the final fight will be utterly brutal without foreknowledge; be prepared for a wipe or three (Sanyassi's melee attack hits for 120-150 damage on normal). But you'll get it.

Prey on the Hunter is probably the easiest quest out there for experienced groups, but has a failure condition right near the end that first timers will have real trouble with, plus it is tight on shrines (although not nearly as bad as it used to be before they added one).

Enter the Kobold is, in my opinion, the hardest quest in the game. Quite doable on normal in a 17-20 group where at least three people know it well, but the quest is so easy it is dull until the end fight which is utterly ridiculous.

Stealer of Souls is difficult, but not ridiculously hard. Expect your clerics to require mana potions, but not many of them. (The timer is extremely lenient).

lugoman
11-24-2009, 11:13 PM
Enter the Kobold is, in my opinion, the hardest quest in the game. Quite doable on normal in a 17-20 group where at least three people know it well, but the quest is so easy it is dull until the end fight which is utterly ridiculous.



It wouldnt be so bad for new players to figure out how to do the end boss if it wasnt so far to run to get back if you die and have to recall.

VtecFiend
11-24-2009, 11:43 PM
If the DT loot crafting had a major grind reduction overhaul, I'd mention this as a primary candidate for purchase to every mid-high level free to player I came across.

Really, I love the area. I think the quests are fun, challenging when you don't know them, and the XP is very satisfying.


But a bunch of good ideas have been mentioned here, like eliminating reflag for Sorjek.


The refuge is a good area of the game badly in need of some minor tweaking to make it GREAT. I'm afraid as more and more quests get added it will turn into the desert circa mod 4-6. People pretty much avoided it like the plague(for different reasons obviously).

And while someone was mentioning DDO economic woes, I'd like to say that DDO has not had a plat based economy since the shroud came out. Our economy is in large ingredients and now epic lootables. If you look at the economy from that standpoint things are pretty good LOL

moorewr
11-25-2009, 07:59 AM
Prey on the Hunter: The Command of Sorjek buff is complete ******** that unnecessarily nerfs monks way more than any other class. (It hampers WoE, MoBB and Stun effects.)

Agreed - cheese. Major cheese. It would be a little less aggravating if Greater Dispel or Disjunction had a chance to remove the immunities.

Thrudh
11-25-2009, 08:13 AM
add items to the Dragon Hoard. As a suggestion, consider adding two named items - one dropping in any chest, one only in the Hoard, plus giving the dragon hoard a slim chance - say 1% normal, 2% hard, 3% elite - to drop a random, bound-to-character +3 tome.

I liked your whole post, but especially this...

Does ANYONE fight those two dragons? Why put in a dragon fight, but then give zero incentive to run it? Two dragons, almost no treasure?

I love the devs, but sometimes I really wonder what the heck they were thinking...

Thrudh
11-25-2009, 08:14 AM
I also agree that Enter the Kobold is way too hard for a group that doesn't have a wizard (or the rare sorc with Ooze Puppet)...

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's harder than Amrath quests on elite... but yeah Enter the Kobold could stand to be toned down a bit.

moorewr
11-25-2009, 08:20 AM
I liked your whole post, but especially this...

Does ANYONE fight those two dragons? Why put in a dragon fight, but then give zero incentive to run it? Two dragons, almost no treasure?

I love the devs, but sometimes I really wonder what the heck they were thinking...

Heh. Did it once one on a Sir Edmund Hillary basis ("Because it's there") and have had pity on the dragons ever since.

Thrudh
11-25-2009, 08:21 AM
The "difficulty" under consideration here is the difficulty of recruiting other players to help you in Stealer of Souls, and that is almost entirely due to the need to reflag to enter the quest. The complexities of how you reflag and what parts could be avoided are mostly irrelevant. All that matters is to notice that reflagging is not trivial, and that you can't enter SOS until you do.

A_D, the flagging is fairly trivial now... When you complete SoS, you get 50 runes, which you can use to buy the Kobold and Monestary essences... So basically to reflag for SoS just requires running Prey, which is a pretty quick quest.

The bound runes ARE a huge problem... My cleric has all the Shroud items he needs, yet he keeps running the Shroud to get ingrediants for my other characters... My cleric also has his DT armor "good enough", and has zero reason to ever run those quests again... There is no named loot, and he can't trade the runes.

This is why it's hard to find a group for refuge quests and SoS in particular.


The dragontouched armor mechanic is a separate topic entirely: regardless of whether a potential party recruit is working on DT armor, has already completed it, or is uninterested in anything but Starter Rags, the fact remains that he can't help you do the quest unless he himself has reflagged.

Again, if he's already completed his armor, he has zero incentive to run it again in a PUG.