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siluro
11-11-2009, 12:24 AM
Recently after having a thread earlier I decided to start a new dual wield character....

I tried to play it smart and follow a TWF Khopesh Barb build (Human)... From HERE (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1290915&posted=1#post1290915)

The only difference was my CON was lower because I couldn't start with a 32point build....

I got my character up to level 4, and I was really frustrated because I would literally miss 8 out of 10 hits, and my attack bonus would be at max 5 with power attack off while wearing light armor with no penalty...

After I talked a little someone told me I should not use power attack, and get a different feat... Over Sized TWF instead as well as being a fighter class....

So I'm planning on re-rolling a new build, can someone please tell me what I should aim for?

So far I'm thinking...

Fighter-Human (Preferred)

16 STR
15 DEX
16 CON

With starting feats: TWF, OSTWF, Weapon Focus: Slashing...

What do you think of that?


Another thing I have been looking at is whether to stick with the Khopesh or going with a different weapon, the Bastard Sword has really caught my attention... I also want to be able to wear heavy armor without any penalties, so what would I need to do for that?



Thanks for all your help!

ReaperAlexEU
11-11-2009, 04:14 AM
with any twf build you may very well miss a lot in the early levels, so pack a 2 hander to swap to if you feel your missing too much (or a sword and board as having a shield is useful any way for some quests). also do not use 2 kopesh at all in your early levels, the penalties for not using a light off-hand weapon are just too much. you will eventually get oversized twf to reduce that penalty. you will want power attack in the end too, there is enough room for both feats by lvl15. you will also want toughness, especially with your low con. also critical rage no longer exists, instead of getting more crits barbs now get bigger crits, but it hurts them each swing they take and you need cleave to unlock that, which makes you 1 feat short and wishing for more hit points.

can i suggest rolling a twf ranger instead? you don't need to hit 17 dex to get the twf feats as you will be given it for free. so you can have a bit more con and some wis to help with the spells. there are sample builds for 28 pointers in the sticky at the top of this forum section.

focus on getting 1750 favour and unlocking 32 point builds (and your choice of +2 tome for any char that hits 1750). in the mean time try going for more focused builds, they will be a lot easier to play and are more likely to be kept when you get 32 pointers.

as for the weapon, when it comes to crits the pesh has the best stats by far, not only does it get a lot of crits due to its nice threat range, it does heavy damage on a crit due to its nice multiplier. the b-sword has 2 pro's over the pesh, it has better dps when your hitting crit-immune mobs, and is a lot cheaper than the equivalent pesh because its not as popular.

oh yeah, heavy armour no use to a barb or a ranger. as a barb you can get some good base DR from levels and enhancements. as a ranger you will eventually get evasion making heavy or medium armour worse than light. also armour class is very hard to get unless your able to grind for lots of rare items, a bit hit point buffer is much better if your not up for the grind. you have to play with the right mind set, let another tank get aggro then dive in and mop up. heavy armour does not give you a good AC, its all the other rare gear that gives you a good AC, and a lot of AC builds don't wear heavy armour, if they wear armour at all!

Arianrhod
11-11-2009, 08:06 AM
Here's a little something many new players don't realize about two-weapon fighting (though it is something one can discover by looking at the "main hand" and "off hand" entries at the bottom of the paperdoll):

Two-weapon fighting penalties:
Normal: Primary Hand -6, Off Hand -10
Off hand weapon is light: Primary hand -4, Off Hand -8
Two-weapon Fighting Feat: Primary Hand -4, Off Hand -4
Offhand weapon is light and two-weapon fighting feat: Primary Hand -2, Off Hand -2

Even having the right feats, you still get a small penalty to hit when dual-wielding. If you don't have the right feats, or aren't using the right weapons, the penalty can be huge. Consider the following example:

Level 2 rogue, 12 Strength
Base Attack Bonus +1, Strength Bonus +1
Wielding +1 Bastard Sword in main hand, +1 Warhammer in off hand:
Non-proficiency Penalty: -4/-4
Dual-wielding non-light weapons without the right feats: -6/-10

Total bonus: -7/-11; it's not surprising this poor rogue can't hit the broad side of a barn ;)

For a more sensible example, consider:

Level 2 ranger, 14 Strength
Base Attack Bonus +2, Strength Bonus +2
Wielding +1 Longsword in main hand, +1 short sword in off hand:
Dual-wielding appropriate weapons with 2-weapon fighting feat: -2/-2

Total Bonus: +3/+3

That same ranger wielding the longsword and a shield would have a total +5 attack bonus instead (and better armor class, at that level).

tihocan
11-11-2009, 08:08 AM
I tried to play it smart and follow a TWF Khopesh Barb build (Human)... From HERE (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1290915&posted=1#post1290915)

The only difference was my CON was lower because I couldn't start with a 32point build....

I got my character up to level 4, and I was really frustrated because I would literally miss 8 out of 10 hits, and my attack bonus would be at max 5 with power attack off while wearing light armor with no penalty...
- If you dropped Con to 10 it was probably a bad idea. Should have taken Str down to 17 and Con to 13.
- It's not surprising you're missing a lot at low levels, especially since you can't be raging all the time like you'll be at high levels, and as a new player you are probably not using all the gear that you could get to boost your to-hit. At L15 you'd be picking up the cleave feat (for frenzied berzerker) and L18 the oversized TWF feat, which would help your to-hit. So in the long term, this is a very viable build. You can make it work early by either using shield + khopesh (when not raging, to get decent AC), or khopesh+kukri.
- Be aware that being able to use heavy armor won't do much for you past the mid levels if you're going to be dual wielding (it'll help early, but at some point you'll start getting hit a lot regardless of your armor)

ivar415
11-11-2009, 08:08 AM
Yeah, ease up on the funky 2 weapon thing.

I see soo many starting characters running around with two longswords etc, wondering why they never hit anything.

Stay with one weapon, 2 handed or sword&shield till at least level 4. If you want to choose weapon focus, then do so at the start when the +1 to hit matters most.

Talcyndl
11-11-2009, 08:13 AM
As the above figures make clear...you need the feats.

Until then, try sword and board. Or at the very least, use a light weapon in the off hand.

The build isn't bad, it just takes a while before you can truly dual wield the khopeshes that make it a DPS machine. :)

Mav145
11-11-2009, 08:15 AM
If you really must go with two khopeshes in the early game - try a kensai fighter. With the extra fighter feats, you will be able to get twf and otwf in the first two levels, plus toughness, and one of the weapon focus:slashing feats - not sure about the min. level on that though.

You will also be proficient in tower shields and heavy armor.

siluro
11-11-2009, 11:55 AM
Ok, so it's not a bad build, but I would have to continue for a while without a dual-wield until I gather more feats....


In that case should I start over anyways? I talked to someone in a party the other night and he recommended the fighter build with:

16 STR
15 DEX
16 CON

Starting feats: TWF, OSTWF, Weapon Focus: Slashing...

Anyways I would play with that with a 2-handed or sword and board for a little while, but at the same time I could use heavier armor (someone says that it doesn't really make much of a difference later on, so maybe not?) and I would have fewer enhancements (which doesn't bother me so much because I'm too lazy to even bother with triggering anything...)

Does that seem like a good idea especially with the enhancements I don't use? I'm still low level on the barb...




Another thing someone mentioned about the Khopesh is the crit threat range? I haven't heard of this stat where can I learn more about that? Just from comparing a regular Khopesh to a Bastard Sword, I calculated the sword would do more damage by probability even with the lower critical multiplier, but the threat range may change my results... The other possibility is the Dwarf Axe...

tihocan
11-11-2009, 12:07 PM
Ok, so it's not a bad build, but I would have to continue for a while without a dual-wield until I gather more feats....


In that case should I start over anyways? I talked to someone in a party the other night and he recommended the fighter build with:

16 STR
15 DEX
16 CON

Starting feats: TWF, OSTWF, Weapon Focus: Slashing...

Anyways I would play with that with a 2-handed or sword and board for a little while, but at the same time I could use heavier armor (someone says that it doesn't really make much of a difference later on, so maybe not?) and I would have fewer enhancements (which doesn't bother me so much because I'm too lazy to even bother with triggering anything...)

Does that seem like a good idea especially with the enhancements I don't use? I'm still low level on the barb...




Another thing someone mentioned about the Khopesh is the crit threat range? I haven't heard of this stat where can I learn more about that? Just from comparing a regular Khopesh to a Bastard Sword, I calculated the sword would do more damage by probability even with the lower critical multiplier, but the threat range may change my results... The other possibility is the Dwarf Axe...
You don't have to start over, although if you started with 10 base Con this is definitely a bit low. In the long term there won't be much difference between the barbarian and the fighter versions. Both will be high DPS builds with solid offense and rather poor defense.

Keep in mind that if you start with 15 Dex you'll need a +2 Dex tome to grab Improved TWF.

And khopesh > bastard sword & dwarven axe overall. On a dwarf, the dwarven axe can be justified because it becomes significantly better against crit-immune monsters.

siluro
11-11-2009, 12:48 PM
Well how is the Khopesh better?

It hits between 3-10 damage on a regular hit with a 10% chance of hitting a critical... So you will hit about 65 base damage before you would get a critical... Critical is multiplied by 3 so you will hit anywhere from 9-30 damage.

While the Bastard sword will hit anywhere from 3-12, meaning 75 base damage average every 10 hits and critcal also has a 10% chance except only multiplied by 2, meaning 6-24 damage.

The critical difference is probably somewhere between 3 and 6, but the base damage on the bastard sword is stronger then the Khopesh, so does that mean the Khopesh is slightly weaker, but it has a nicer critical?

Someone can check me on the math...



Also are there any other differences that I missed?


Dwarf Axe is the same as the bastard sword but only 5% chance of hitting critical multiplied by 3...


And these are all from +2's (+2 slash I guess?)

ReaperAlexEU
11-11-2009, 01:32 PM
you get to add your STR bonus to the crits before you multiply it up, so take 30 STR (minimum for an end game melee really) thats a +10 bonus, or 20 extra on a crit for the sword, and 30 extra on a crit for the pesh. also power attack goes in pre-multi for 10 on the sword and 15 on the pesh. oh and the weapons enhancement, another 10 on the sword and 15 on the pesh. so, with just the bare basics were looking at 40 on the sword and 60 on the pesh. the more damage you can do the bigger the difference will get!

tihocan
11-11-2009, 01:40 PM
Also, you should consider the longer term, i.e. after getting improved crit, so the khopesh hits 4 times out of 20 swings, not just 2.

siluro
11-11-2009, 04:31 PM
Aha,

Thank you very much ReaperAlexEU for explaining that, now I understand why it's better.

And tihocan that sounds like a great idea, I will definitely add that feat.


And thanks everyone else on the input, so far the final draft:


Human Fighter:

STR 16
DEX 16
CON 15

Lower level starting with single weapon... Feats (Level 1): TWF, Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh.

Level 2: OS TWF

Level 3: ??



Anything else people would like to add?


Also does it matter which alignment I choose? Feeling like Chaotic myself :D

tihocan
11-11-2009, 04:36 PM
Also does it matter which alignment I choose? Feeling like Chaotic myself :D
Probably a good idea to be good-aligned.
Other than that, doesn't matter much, unless you plan to multiclass into something, because some other classes have alignment restrictions.

ReaperAlexEU
11-11-2009, 04:48 PM
lawful good might be worth it. with your good dex you stand a chance of gathering the AC gear, one of which needs you to be lawful. as tiho said good is worth picking too. there are weapons that do extra dmg to any non-good monster in the game, ie most of em. you need to be good or have umd to use them.

siluro
11-12-2009, 12:45 PM
Any idea which feat I should use at level 3, and what enhancements should I go for (I don't like anything that's toggled).

hcarr
11-12-2009, 01:03 PM
I would take toughness wepon focus slashing and kopesh at creation.
twf at lvl 2
power attack lvl 3
lvl 4 up hopfully have +1 dex tome and then take other twf feats you want. from that point on since lvl 3 is the earliest the +1 tome will show up.

yes power attack is a toggle but it is excellent to have end game.

enhancments take ones towards the pre class you want.
toughness and haste boost(clicky) are also good ones to have.