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View Full Version : Step 1 to balancing ranged: Accurately portray Manyshot



Junts
11-10-2009, 01:28 PM
From the d20 SRD, re: epic improved manyshot and manyshot itself, important parts bolded and italicized.

This nerf to manyshot would make it significantly less powerful for rangers and allow more dev freedom in designing ranged without dealing with the 20 seconds of god mode issue.

Manyshot [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6

Benefit
As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.

Special
Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage or the ranger’s favored enemy bonus) only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Manyshot even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

Zenako
11-10-2009, 01:44 PM
Did some back of the envelope type numbers and I don't think it really would make it less powerful. Less PEAK power, but almost certainly more power over time. Can't process everything here at work however.

Also it really depends on some assumptions, like the negative to hit modifier even matters in DDO.

Junts
11-10-2009, 01:45 PM
Did some back of the envelope type numbers and I don't think it really would make it less powerful. Less PEAK power, but almost certainly more power over time. Can't process everything here at work however.

Also it really depends on some assumptions, like the negative to hit modifier even matters in DDO.

That wasn't the part I was highlighting, though it certainly matters on Epic

Removing crits on 3/4 of arrows fired, and favored enemy damage on 3/4 of arrows fired, however, would make a significant impact on manyshot DPS.

Zenako
11-10-2009, 02:08 PM
That wasn't the part I was highlighting, though it certainly matters on Epic

Removing crits on 3/4 of arrows fired, and favored enemy damage on 3/4 of arrows fired, however, would make a significant impact on manyshot DPS.

However, a goodly number of the mobs you face at end game can't be critted anyway, and many find the gaps in FE as well. The problem stems from the sheer increase in number of shots over time, even with lowered average damage against some foes.

For sure, my peak damage against FE Giants would drop a lot, but not sure it would lower at all my expected damage vs gnolls for example.

Lets use 0.75/shot or volley per sec. (~from cforces table)

That means currently over 120 seconds you get 90 base shots and 45 manyshot arrows. (15 volleys during the 20 seconds of manyshot)

135 arrows, all with the same crit and damage chances. Crits are 10% of them and do 3x damage, so you get 162 arrows worth of damage in 120 seconds.

For arguments sake lets put the base damage at 20 points. that would be about 3240 points of damage PLUS FE damage, of 8 per hit or another 1296 points for 4536 points over those 2 minutes.


With your modifications, you would now get the same 90 base arrows and 270 manyshot arrows over those 2 minutes. Those 90 base arrows could still crit for the 3x damage so that is 108 base damage arrows. FE on those too.

So now we have 108*20 = 2160 + 90*8 = 720 or 2880 Base Damge and we still have 270 bonus Many Arrows. Those Bonus arrows will get no extra effects and just do the base 20 ot another 5400. Add to the 2880 base and you are now looking at 8280 damage over those 2 minutes. That is a LOT more damage...a lot.

The problem stems from the huge increase in the number of shots over time you will be getting and that the increase in output due to the special effects is not offset by just limiting it to the base shot.

Too good...

Chimaira
11-10-2009, 02:17 PM
There's already a -8 AB penalty. If mobs had more then 7 AC manyshot would hardly be worth it anyway.

Why did they put it in anyway if it's so unbalanced that they had to beat every archer to death with nerf sticks in order to "balance it out"?

Junts
11-10-2009, 02:20 PM
However, a goodly number of the mobs you face at end game can't be critted anyway, and many find the gaps in FE as well. The problem stems from the sheer increase in number of shots over time, even with lowered average damage against some foes.

For sure, my peak damage against FE Giants would drop a lot, but not sure it would lower at all my expected damage vs gnolls for example.

Lets use 0.75/shot or volley per sec. (~from cforces table)

That means currently over 120 seconds you get 90 base shots and 45 manyshot arrows. (15 volleys during the 20 seconds of manyshot)

135 arrows, all with the same crit and damage chances. Crits are 10% of them and do 3x damage, so you get 162 arrows worth of damage in 120 seconds.

For arguments sake lets put the base damage at 20 points. that would be about 3240 points of damage PLUS FE damage, of 8 per hit or another 1296 points for 4536 points over those 2 minutes.


With your modifications, you would now get the same 90 base arrows and 270 manyshot arrows over those 2 minutes. Those 90 base arrows could still crit for the 3x damage so that is 108 base damage arrows. FE on those too.

So now we have 108*20 = 2160 + 90*8 = 720 or 2880 Base Damge and we still have 270 bonus Many Arrows. Those Bonus arrows will get no extra effects and just do the base 20 ot another 5400. Add to the 2880 base and you are now looking at 8280 damage over those 2 minutes. That is a LOT more damage...a lot.

The problem stems from the huge increase in the number of shots over time you will be getting and that the increase in output due to the special effects is not offset by just limiting it to the base shot.

Too good...

While I agree with you, removing 10ish damage per hit and the critical chance reduces the return on the additional attacks the same way offhand strength penalty etc reduces the return on twf's bonus attacks. Against the foes for which manyshot matters (eg, non-epic mobs, as you wont hit an epic anything at -8 to hit), almost everything falls into favored enemy (undead or evil outsider) and are critable.

daniel7
11-10-2009, 02:22 PM
The timer is so long on multishot I don't see why it is really considered over powered. People won't wait on your multishot to reset just as they won't wait on a rogue to sneak.

Talon_Moonshadow
11-10-2009, 04:42 PM
OK........
So you have this barbarian, who is getting attacked by a gnoll archer, up on a perch so high that he cannot jump up on it, what should he do?

Sensible answer, pull out a bow and shoot back.
But in DDO, he is so dismal with a bow that it is a waste of time to even consider it.

or an air-elemental...impossible to melee. Yet the same barbarian has no hope of killing it with a bow.

Why? because ranged combat for a non-ranged specced char in DDO is horribly broken (slow).

Yet a char with manyshot can put out enough DPS to pull a half HP pit fiend off a decked out tank.

So.......
Someday you guys will stop trying to beef up your rangers and tart asking for a fix that makes sense for that melee specced barbarian to actually use a bow when it makes sense for him to do so.

Angelus_dead
11-10-2009, 04:51 PM
Special
Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage or the ranger’s favored enemy bonus) only once.
Favored Enemy is not precision damage. You are apparently thinking about a D&D rule version older than 3.5. The manyshot feat can be viewed here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#manyshot

Junts
11-10-2009, 04:53 PM
Favored Enemy is not precision damage. You are apparently thinking about a D&D rule version older than 3.5. The manyshot feat can be viewed here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#manyshot

Ahh, that's what I found interesting, because ..

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm

Go down to 'improved manyshot' whcih includes the text i highlighted: It specifically refers to favored enemy as precision-based damage.

Angelus_dead
11-10-2009, 04:54 PM
Go down to 'improved manyshot' whcih includes the text i highlighted: It specifically refers to favored enemy as precision-based damage.
That's the epic handbook, which is not the basis for DDO, and which was not really updated from older D&D releases. Even if the Epic Handbook were being used, it would not work for a tertiary feat to redefine a core class feature in a parenthetical aside.

If you have the D&D 3.5 Rules Compendium, this is on page 42.

salmag
11-12-2009, 12:38 PM
However, a goodly number of the mobs you face at end game can't be critted anyway, and many find the gaps in FE as well. The problem stems from the sheer increase in number of shots over time, even with lowered average damage against some foes.

For sure, my peak damage against FE Giants would drop a lot, but not sure it would lower at all my expected damage vs gnolls for example.

Lets use 0.75/shot or volley per sec. (~from cforces table)

That means currently over 120 seconds you get 90 base shots and 45 manyshot arrows. (15 volleys during the 20 seconds of manyshot)

135 arrows, all with the same crit and damage chances. Crits are 10% of them and do 3x damage, so you get 162 arrows worth of damage in 120 seconds.

For arguments sake lets put the base damage at 20 points. that would be about 3240 points of damage PLUS FE damage, of 8 per hit or another 1296 points for 4536 points over those 2 minutes.


With your modifications, you would now get the same 90 base arrows and 270 manyshot arrows over those 2 minutes. Those 90 base arrows could still crit for the 3x damage so that is 108 base damage arrows. FE on those too.

So now we have 108*20 = 2160 + 90*8 = 720 or 2880 Base Damge and we still have 270 bonus Many Arrows. Those Bonus arrows will get no extra effects and just do the base 20 ot another 5400. Add to the 2880 base and you are now looking at 8280 damage over those 2 minutes. That is a LOT more damage...a lot.

The problem stems from the huge increase in the number of shots over time you will be getting and that the increase in output due to the special effects is not offset by just limiting it to the base shot.

Too good...

Just a minor correction, I believe. Manyshot is 20 seconds of awesomeness, followed by 2 minutes of less than mediocrity (for 140 seconds - not 120). So that might change your numbers.

Zenako
11-12-2009, 12:47 PM
Just a minor correction, I believe. Manyshot is 20 seconds of awesomeness, followed by 2 minutes of less than mediocrity (for 140 seconds - not 120). So that might change your numbers.

mmm, will double check tonight when I get home if the timer starts after the manyshot ends or when it begins. (most cooldowns start when the activity is initiated) In any case if it is a full 120 between bursts, that just makes the continuous manyshot option even more powerful since even more down time is now manyshot time.

salmag
11-12-2009, 12:55 PM
mmm, will double check tonight when I get home if the timer starts after the manyshot ends or when it begins. (most cooldowns start when the activity is initiated) In any case if it is a full 120 between bursts, that just makes the continuous manyshot option even more powerful since even more down time is now manyshot time.

True.

Which is why I would like to see an enhancement line added, to reduce the timer in between. I believe someone somewhere suggested it before. Something like:

Manyshot Cooldown I: Lowers cooldown by 20 seconds (to 100 secs)
Req: Manyshot, available at level 12 (?), 1 action point

Manyshot Cooldown II: Lowers cooldown an additional 20 seconds (to 80 secs)
Req: available at level 15 (?), 2 action points

Manyshot Cooldown III: Lowers cooldown an additional 20 seconds (to 60 secs)
Req: available at level 18 (?), 3 action points

Or something like that, not sure exactly. I changed the level availability.

But I think that this would work nicely.

Just my opinion.

LeLoric
11-12-2009, 12:57 PM
I think the best way to balance many shot is allow it to be active all the time as a toggle stance similar to power attack. Each arrow more than one adds a -2 attack bonus. Special effects dont work on the extra hits similar to glancing blows. Spice up the deepwood sniper prc by allowing a chance to add special effects on each extra hit with each tier.

Aspenor
11-12-2009, 01:00 PM
Epic Level Handbook (which is where that rule comes from) is a 3.0 book, not 3.5.

I think changing Rapid Shot to be more like written in the 3.5 rules would help.

Turial
11-12-2009, 01:01 PM
...Stuff...

The tech for what you are suggesting likely doesn't exist in the game or would be very hard to apply.

An easier fix but perhaps less cool would simply to make manyshot an attack that cannot register sneak attacks or critical hits, period. I'm sure their is a script in the code that checks to see if the attack qualifies as a sneak attack and if the target is able to be critically hit. The manyshot buff would then set those two results to "not a sneak attack" and "target can not be critically hit" for its duration.

That would eliminate pretty much most reasons to use manyshot and ranged combat though.

Visty
11-12-2009, 01:19 PM
There's already a -8 AB penalty.

wrong, manyshot has no penalty currently

Mockduck
11-13-2009, 12:09 PM
Wow, you usually don't hear too much about ranged being overpowered in DDO....why take away the one nice thing for ranged folks (well, other than assassin stuff).

Junts
11-13-2009, 12:12 PM
The tech for what you are suggesting likely doesn't exist in the game or would be very hard to apply.

An easier fix but perhaps less cool would simply to make manyshot an attack that cannot register sneak attacks or critical hits, period. I'm sure their is a script in the code that checks to see if the attack qualifies as a sneak attack and if the target is able to be critically hit. The manyshot buff would then set those two results to "not a sneak attack" and "target can not be critically hit" for its duration.

That would eliminate pretty much most reasons to use manyshot and ranged combat though.

My point is that somewhat nerfing manyshot is a significant step to being able to generally upgrade ranged attack speed and DPS, without creating the problem of magnifying the damage by 4-5x during manyshot and having it get completely out of proportion. Ranged damage is so bad on DDO that you could increase it as a baseline by 50-65% and it would still be inferior to melee; however, increasing manyshot damage by 50-65% would move what's already outstanding dps to the state of well out of control, and so the gap between manyshot and normal ranged combat needs to decrease so that the other 100 seconds of no manyshot can be made more useful.

maddmatt70
11-13-2009, 12:23 PM
My point is that somewhat nerfing manyshot is a significant step to being able to generally upgrade ranged attack speed and DPS, without creating the problem of magnifying the damage by 4-5x during manyshot and having it get completely out of proportion. Ranged damage is so bad on DDO that you could increase it as a baseline by 50-65% and it would still be inferior to melee; however, increasing manyshot damage by 50-65% would move what's already outstanding dps to the state of well out of control, and so the gap between manyshot and normal ranged combat needs to decrease so that the other 100 seconds of no manyshot can be made more useful.

You should add to your suggestion that there should also be an increased general rate of fire as well.

The purists in me likes the 4x arrows that Turbine has which corresponds to 3.5, but the problem is Turbine did not implement this correctly. The way manyshot works in 3.5 is you fire 4x arrows in a standard action and then you can use a move action in a round. The move action can not be used to shoot any more arrows. The other option in 3.5 is to shoot the equivalent amount of arrows basically in a Full round action which also uses a round. For all practical purposes manyshot has the same rate of fire in 3.5 as does regular shooting it just gives a character the additional option of executing a move action.

The general rate of fire should be the same for a moving manyshotting character in DDO as a standing non moving archer. I would guess that this is very difficult for Turbine to code though; hence, we do not have it in DDO. I do not know what would be the best way to solve this problem because the answer really resides in the code iteslf.

RobbinB
11-15-2009, 12:09 AM
Simplest solution is to increase rate of attack speed significantly when firing bows normally, then have this rate reduce significantly when you are in manyshot mode. For example, 85% firing rate for 2 arrows, 70% rate for 3 arrows, 55% for 4 arrows. Overall ranged is increased but manyshot at level 20 would only be 2.2X better than non-manyshot.