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View Full Version : Duo (Cleric/Palladin) advice for leet newbs plz :)



Seelowe
11-10-2009, 08:07 AM
Greetings and thanks for taking time to read through my thread!

I joined the ranks of DDO very recently and am considering coming here full time with the Missus, since we both like the gameplay and community at a first glance. For now though, the accounts are free while we give ourselfs some time exploring.

We are going to start a Cleric (caster-type, not a pure healbot) / Palladin duo and I was looking at builds around to get some ideas. Now, we both have rather extensive PnP background but we are obviously not familiar with the endgame requirements of the quest/raids in this version.

So, after reading a LOT of forum threads about suggested builds and some insight on endgame (but only in theory, so hard to translate it while character planning) I have come up with 2 builds. I assumed no overpowered equipment and 28-point builds, Naturally, such builds can't be optimal, but something to be useful in a raid group (not even touching on the actual player-skill involved to keep things simple):


the palladin:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

XXXXXXX Of The Holy Cross
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 458
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 14
Will: 11

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23 24
Dexterity 8 8 8
Constitution 14 14 14
Intelligence 8 8 8
Wisdom 14 14 14
Charisma 14 16 20

Tomes Used
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance -1 -1
Bluff 2 5
Concentration 2 11
Diplomacy 2 5
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 5
Heal 6 24
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 2 5
Jump 3 7
Listen 2 2
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spot 2 2
Swim 3 7
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 4 16

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Remove Disease
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II


Level 8 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma III


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar III


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost III


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good II


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good III





I took the liberty to use a +3 str tome and a +2 charisma stone at lvl 20 just to see what could be possible if these toons reach endgame on a 28 point build.

also, the character planner would not let me raise Divine Might any higher than lvl1, even though the specified requirements were met. so unsure about that.


and the cleric:



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

XXXXXX Of The Holy Cross
Level 20 Neutral Good Human Female
(20 Cleric)
Hit Points: 284
Spell Points: 1786
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 5
Will: 21

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 10 10 10
Dexterity 8 8 8
Constitution 14 14 14
Intelligence 8 8 8
Wisdom 18 24 28
Charisma 12 12 13

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance -1 -1
Bluff 1 1
Concentration 6 21
Diplomacy 1 1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 1 1
Heal 8 28
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 1 1
Jump 0 0
Listen 4 9
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spot 4 9
Swim 0 0
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a 7

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Heal (+4)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Casting


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Concentration I
Enhancement: Cleric Concentration II
Enhancement: Cleric Heal I
Enhancement: Cleric Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II




similar tomes could be used for endgame stats.


what I would appreciate immensly is for experienced players to inform me if I have missed something dramatic or vital to this version's mechanics. I have heard things are treated differently than PnP in multiple occasions and was wondering if certain feats are just useless or not as important as others for endgame raids etc.

thank you again for any constructive criticism!

p.s.: if any of my players had told me he wants to multiclass a rogue with a palladin back in my active PnP days, I surely would have hit him with negative xp before the story-arche started, so just saying... some things work differently here :D

tihocan
11-10-2009, 08:56 AM
Cleric:
- no points in heal skill, put 1 rank into tumble, rest into balance (of course max out concentration)
- your feats are messed up (no worries, all new players do that ;)). Instead:
L1 toughness
L1 extend
L3 empower healing
L6 maximize
L9 quicken
L12 spell pen
L15 greater spell pen
L18 mental toughness

You can do variants, but basically you want maximize (for blade barriers) and quicken (for blade barriers and heals under heavy heat). You don't really need improved MT as long as you don't mind using scrolls when running low on SPs.

tihocan
11-10-2009, 09:09 AM
Paladin:
- stats look ok though Wis is a bit high (it's only useful to cast spells, and this can be achieved using bonuses from tomes/items/enhancements)
- get rid of that Heal skill, take UMD+balance instead
- get rid of mental toughness (SPs don't matter that much on a paladin); take stunning blow instead

Seelowe
11-10-2009, 12:37 PM
first of all thank you for your quick reply!

what you are suggesting would boil down to something along these lines:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Edited Paladin
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 295
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 14
Will: 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 21
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 10 10
Charisma 16 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 0.5 10
Bluff 3 5
Concentration 2 11
Diplomacy 3 5
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 5
Heal 0 0
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 3 5
Jump 3 5
Listen 0 0
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spot 0 0
Swim 3 5
Tumble 0 0
Use Magic Device 4.5 16

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+1.5)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Remove Disease


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost III
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar III
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II




and


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Edited Cleric
Level 20 Neutral Good Human Female
(20 Cleric)
Hit Points: 262
Spell Points: 1652
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 5
Will: 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 10 10
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 18 26
Charisma 12 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance -1 8
Bluff 1 1
Concentration 6 27
Diplomacy 1 1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 1 1
Heal 4 8
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 1 1
Jump 0 0
Listen 4 8
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spot 4 8
Swim 0 0
Tumble 1 1
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Intervention
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Concentration I
Enhancement: Cleric Concentration II
Enhancement: Cleric Concentration III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality II
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I




a couple of remarks concerning them:
paladin:
1. he would need a +1 to +4 wis item to be able to cast spells at all. isn't that a liability depending on quest rewards or are such items fairly common at the equivallent levels? also, are they common in generally useful items... ;)
2. I gave him Force of Personality in favor of better saves compared to the Stun. I tend to like permanent effects more than roll-favored ones.

cleric:
is there any particular reason to take extend that early instead of empower healing? any specific spell being the cause?
ty again!

Individual
11-10-2009, 12:47 PM
- get rid of mental toughness (SPs don't matter that much on a paladin); take stunning blow instead

Saw the change to Force of Personality from this comment, though paladins have excellet saves due to Divine Grace anyways, I wouldnt use a feat on this.

Disagree with Stunning Blow because the only way to increase your DC on a human paladin other than STR mod is a Weighted weapon, I would vouch for Extend in its place. Also I would consider dropping WF; Slashing aswell, the +1 to-hit isnt all that great at endgame - I would suggest Cleave or Skill Focus; UMD.

tihocan
11-10-2009, 01:15 PM
Disagree with Stunning Blow because the only way to increase your DC on a human paladin other than STR mod is a Weighted weapon, I would vouch for Extend in its place.
I agree with you. I browsed through the feats quickly and I think I skpped the metamagics; extend can be handy for a paladin.

Weapon focus is not that useless anymore with the Epic stuff. I wouldn't blow a feat on SF: UMD unless it would let me use heal scrolls with a near 100% success rate, which is unlikely I believe for this build.

Individual
11-10-2009, 01:21 PM
Weapon focus is not that useless anymore with the Epic stuff.

Definately, although +1 to-hit is not going to be a huge deal in the long run. Being able to reliably hit Raise scrolls, Stoneskin wands, and UMD higher level items IMO will be more useful in a duo than that +1 attack. Cleave will be nice for when the Paladin gets Weapons of Good and higher tiers of KotC at higher levels to increase DPS against several enemies at once, not to mention the benfits from cleave with a Vorpal, Smiting, Disruption or Weighted weapon.

Individual
11-10-2009, 01:24 PM
I wouldn't blow a feat on SF: UMD unless it would let me use heal scrolls with a near 100% success rate, which is unlikely I believe for this build.

Well since the paladin is tandum'd with a cleric heal scrolls werent my main reason for UMD, but rather Stoneskin, Raise Dead, and other useful buffs. Although IMO if you can reliably hit a Heal scroll with a 60% or better you should carry them anyways, since 1 heal scroll is about 4-5x that of a CSW potion for out of battle healing.

tihocan
11-10-2009, 01:34 PM
1. he would need a +1 to +4 wis item to be able to cast spells at all. isn't that a liability depending on quest rewards or are such items fairly common at the equivallent levels? also, are they common in generally useful items... ;)
It's not a big deal, +wis items are easily found.
If you're serious about this character you'll probably want to craft a Concordant Opposition item in the Shroud raid. You can make one for instance giving you +6 Wisdom, +45 HPs, and a chance to get back spell points and gain temporary HPs when hit. Pretty handy.


is there any particular reason to take extend that early instead of empower healing? any specific spell being the cause?
Empower healing at low level is typically a bad idea, because it'll make you overheal and burn through your SPs pretty fast.
Extend is handy for extended bless at L1, then bull's strength at L3.

tihocan
11-10-2009, 01:37 PM
Well since the paladin is tandum'd with a cleric heal scrolls werent my main reason for UMD, but rather Stoneskin, Raise Dead, and other useful buffs. Although IMO if you can reliably hit a Heal scroll with a 60% or better you should carry them anyways, since 1 heal scroll is about 4-5x that of a CSW potion for out of battle healing.
What I meant is if you're going to fail your UMD rolls sometimes, then it means you are mostly relying on UMD out of combat. In this situation, it's not such a big deal if you fail more (without SF: UMD), as long as you can affod the consumables :)

Cleave's a decent choice, but the OP prefers passive feats, so I would keep weapon focus.

Individual
11-10-2009, 01:45 PM
What I meant is if you're going to fail your UMD rolls sometimes, then it means you are mostly relying on UMD out of combat. In this situation, it's not such a big deal if you fail more (without SF: UMD), as long as you can affod the consumables :)

Cleave's a decent choice, but the OP prefers passive feats, so I would keep weapon focus.

My paladin uses Heal scrolls in combat with a 85% success rate before outside buffs, he did max out concentration though. I just think an addtional 15% chance to UMD scrolls, wands, and items > +1 to-hit, especailly with the recent changes to UMD. Although I could be alone in that assumption.

Seelowe
11-11-2009, 02:08 AM
thanks again. these types of comments are exactly what I was hoping for.

so, I am ditching the force of personality feat and replacing it with extend. looking at the duration of the buffs extend indeed appears very helpful!
what I am still torn over is +1 to hit, UMD focus (since I read all over the forums how big of a deal this is here) and Cleave.
my problem with active feats is that the paladin I test-played up to level 8 to get a feeling of the game misses. and he misses a LOT, especially on hard/elite quests. so, while I am spamming sunder, trip, (smite evil where applicable) as soon as they are off cooldown, it only triggers very few times. first it has to actually hit, then it has to bypass the save roll of the mob. that is why I am sceptical about active feats like Cleave or Stun. Especially Cleave with a 2h weapon and a decent enhancement effect on it sounds tempting but if this keeps up, a miss miss miss miss miss cleave is less practical than a hit, miss, miss, hit, hit attack. just my approach, I could be wrong for later levels.

thanks for keeping it constructive :)

p.s.: I know there are never enough points for a paladin, so there is not one perfect build, rather than many very good ones according to the situation. the knowledge of what situations are most common at higher levels and how well some of the feats, that worked well on pnp also work well here is what I was after.

ReaperAlexEU
11-11-2009, 04:45 AM
hmm, with 16 str and focusing on it as you level you should't miss that much. make sure your using the best str item you can get your mits on (check AH for any affordable deals). also don't move when attacking, you get hit with a -4 penalty if you move and attack. in korthos make sure you grab the +1 to hit goggles and a +2 to hit item set, they stack. and make sure your proficient with the weapon your using, thats another -4 for any weapon with a yellow border, tho i guess your less likely to fall into that trap with ure PnP background. if your still missing then focus on getting a weapon with a good +enhancement instead of extra bits.

paladins can be quite an active combat style, come end game you'll be mashing the exalted smite and divine sacrifice buttons on bosses. exalted smite replaces your regular smites and improves the crits. divine sacrifice is similar to a smite, it costs a little HP and SP and dishes out some good positive damage. its also not limited to x times per day, as long as you have healths and spell points you can keep using it. it might sound dangerous, but compared to the other things in game that can hurt you the divine sacrifice damage will only tickle :)

stun might not work often enough to be worth getting, your not going to have the silly high str a kensai fighter or a barbarian gets. however stick with the trips, i always like to try tripping the caster, well worth the attempt when you stop the caster from nuking the pair of you as your kill him! try to resist the urge to trip on your first swing, if you wait till your 4th swing then it will come with a +10 to hit! unlike PnP the attack chain gets a to hit bonus rather than a to hit penalty. no, i still can't get my head round why they did that, something about stopping us from re-setting the chain to keep getting the biggest bonus, but they are perfectly capable of keeping the chain together when you tumble between hits.

tihocan
11-11-2009, 07:59 AM
that is why I am sceptical about active feats like Cleave or Stun.
You shouldn't miss as often at higher levels, once you start getting the right gear.
That being said, it's true Stunning Blow won't land that much. But it's fun when it does :)
Cleave is an ok feat but you don't really need it with two-handed fighting, since you have glancing blows to hit multiple targets. Although cleave is more powerful since it's a "true" hit on everyone, it comes with a cooldown, and slows you down (it interrupts the attack chain). Overall, again, it's not a bad choice, but it's not a must-have either.
I'd say the same can be said of SF: UMD and Weapon focus. Both will be somewhat helpful, but none is really mandatory.
So my advice... pick the one you like most, and you can still respec out of it at some point if you change your mind :)

WolfSpirit
11-11-2009, 08:43 AM
I'm giving +1 rep to you See, just because you had the foresight to come to the forums to look for advice instead of trying things on your own and getting stuck with a half powered character that you will ultimatly feel dissatification with.
Now my own imput is just to stress that fact of your level up ability scores. Cleric=Wisdom and Palidin=Strength.
These come at ever 4 levels, VERY important not to split them up except in extreme conditions.

Seelowe
11-11-2009, 11:55 AM
ty all again for the feedback!

looking at UMD, it will end up at 16 for the paladin. so SF UMD would boost it up to 19. just to point out the numbers on the most recent build.

seems like the cleric is pretty much settled now, since most feedback concerns the paladin (maybe just another example of how many ways/opinions there are to build one).

I will wait a bit with that feat on the paladin (since the feat in question is way late in the level progression path either way) and see what I have gathered from personal experience up to there. if I have the right gear and am not missing much, UMD it will be. if I am still not satisfied with the missing part, I suppose +1 to hit will be the way I will go.
I will definitely be going the 2h weapon way, I am satisfied with how glancing blows are working atm.


I will edit the character later on and repost the stats.

and tyvm for the rep :)
on the last mmo I played I finished up with slightly over 2k forum posts/forum moderation. I always appreciate the forums of a game and know what type of a treasure vault they can be. with the right community... and so far, I am loving the community here!

p.s. the missus has left character planning to me, while she is busy making and deleting toons figuring out which appearance she likes best... don't you love sharing the workload :D

tihocan
11-11-2009, 12:02 PM
looking at UMD, it will end up at 16 for the paladin. so SF UMD would boost it up to 19. just to point out the numbers on the most recent build.
Note that it'll be significantly higher than that with items & buffs. Probably around twice as high.

Seelowe
11-12-2009, 01:56 PM
Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Edited Cleric
Level 20 Neutral Good Human Female
(20 Cleric)
Hit Points: 262
Spell Points: 1652
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 5
Will: 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 10 10
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 18 26
Charisma 12 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 0 9
Bluff 1 1
Concentration 6 27
Diplomacy 1 1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 1 1
Heal 4 8
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 1 1
Jump 0 0
Listen 4 8
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spot 4 8
Swim 0 0
Tumble 0 0
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Intervention
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Concentration I
Enhancement: Cleric Concentration II
Enhancement: Cleric Concentration III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality II
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I





We rolled her today. this is what she will look like

Seelowe
11-12-2009, 01:58 PM
Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Edited Paladin
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 295
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 14
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 21
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 10 10
Charisma 16 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 0.5 10
Bluff 3 5
Concentration 2 11
Diplomacy 3 5
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 5
Heal 0 0
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 3 5
Jump 3 5
Listen 0 0
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spot 0 0
Swim 3 5
Tumble 0 0
Use Magic Device 4.5 19

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+1.5)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Remove Disease


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost III
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar III
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II




We rolled him today. this is what he will look like.

thanks to all for the input. helped a lot with the fine tuning of what we had envisioned! :) needless to say, they are still low levels and most things can still be adjusted, if there is any additional criticism, ideas, etc.