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lod254
11-09-2009, 07:25 PM
I was looking at trying to make a very defensive paladin. I was looking into 2fighter/2rogue/16paly trying to get evasion but realized I can't use heavy armor if I get evasion, correct?

I wanted to go full dex for AC bonuses and reflex saves and just take the feat to convert damage modifiers to dex over str.

If I'm going down the wrong path here, help me. A link would be great. I looked around and haven't seen much besides old lvl 16 builds.

Lehrman
11-09-2009, 07:45 PM
18 pali/ 2 rogue. Drow.

str 16
dex 16
con 12
int 10
wis 8 (you would have to get a wisdom item to cast spells)
cha 16


str 28 - 4 lvl points, 6item, 2tome (boost to 34--divine might enhancement)
dex 26 - 6item, 2 racial enhance, 1 rogue enhance, 1 tome
con 20 - 6 item, 2tome
int 10
wis 16 - 6item, 2tome
cha 26 - 6item, 2tome, 2 enhancement

saves:
11/6/6 18th pali
0/3/0 2nd rogue
4/4/4 fully upgraded aura
8/8/8 charisma
5/8/3 stat bonuses
5/5/5 resistance item
4/4/4 greater heroism
--------------
37/38/29

Feats as you see fit. You can go 2weapon, sword and board, or 2hander.

captain1z
11-09-2009, 07:50 PM
Needs light armor.

Leather----- mithral breastplate----- +8 bracers is the path you wanna take (when they become available) ending with a dragon touched outfit.

str 13 (1 class, 6 item) 20
dex 16 (5 level, 6 item, 1 tome) 28
con 14 (6 item) 20
int 11 (+2 tome)
wis 12 (+6 item as needed) 18
cha 12 ( 2 class, 6 item) 20


twf
weapon finesse
toughness
power attack
improved crit piercing
combat ex (later)

rapier & short sword combo

grab exhalted smite line


not a stellar plan here but maybe it will get the community brain juice flowing and grabsome feed back for your thread.

lod254
11-09-2009, 08:20 PM
18 pali/ 2 rogue. Drow.

str 16
dex 16
con 12
int 10
wis 8 (you would have to get a wisdom item to cast spells)
cha 16


str 28 - 4 lvl points, 6item, 2tome (boost to 34--divine might enhancement)
dex 26 - 6item, 2 racial enhance, 1 rogue enhance, 1 tome
con 20 - 6 item, 2tome
int 10
wis 16 - 6item, 2tome
cha 26 - 6item, 2tome, 2 enhancement

saves:
11/6/6 18th pali
0/3/0 2nd rogue
4/4/4 fully upgraded aura
8/8/8 charisma
5/8/3 stat bonuses
5/5/5 resistance item
4/4/4 greater heroism
--------------
37/38/29

Feats as you see fit. You can go 2weapon, sword and board, or 2hander.

Why not do minimum str and get weapon finesse?

Can you use a shield with evasion? If so, how much AC down is a light armor and shield tank looking at?

Lehrman
11-10-2009, 10:44 AM
You could lower strength and go with weapon finesse. Nothing wrong with that at all, but if you do, then the build will need to be altered a bit. I would recommend taking goin the 2wpn route and taking 2 points from strength and adding them to wisdom, then take monk instead of rogue for evasion since wisdom bonuses get added to AC. The main drawback of going monk instead of rogue is that you will not be able to cap your UMD, so no heal scrolls, rez scrolls, etc.

Paladin/Monk
Starting:
Str 12
Dex 16 (Put lvl points into dex)
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 16

Str 20 - 6item, 2tome
Dex 30 - 6item, 2tome, 2racial enhance, 4 lvl
con 20 - 6item, 2tome
Int 13 - +1tome (for CE)
Wis 22 - 6item, 2tome, 1monk wis enhancement, 1 lvl
Cha 26 -6item, 2tome, 2enhancement

saves:
11/6/6 18th pali
3/3/3 2nd monk
4/4/4 fully upgraded aura
8/8/8 charisma
5/10/6 stat bonuses
5/5/5 resistance item
4/4/4 greater heroism
--------------
40/40/36

Feats:
P-1) Weapon Finesse
M-2) Toughness
M-3) Combat Expertise and 2wpn fighting
P-6) Power Attack
P-9) Improved 2wpn fighting
P-12) Imp Crit:Pierce
P-15) Grtr 2 weapon Fighting
P-18) ??

I would wear light armor until your stats are high enough to grant=or greater AC wearing Armored bracers. Also, expect to use a shield until at least lvl 9 if soloing. If you can stop using a shield earlier, then great. The monk levels will give you 2 feats and eventually 5-6 AC when unencumbered and not wearing armor or using a shield.

Paladin/Rogue
Starting:
Str 14
Dex 16 (Put lvl points into dex)
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 16

Str 22 - 6item, 2tome
Dex 32 - 6item, 2tome, 2racial enhance, 1 rogue enhance, 5 lvl
con 20 - 6item, 2tome
Int 13 - +1tome (for CE)
Wis 16 - 6item, 2tome
Cha 26 -6item, 2tome, 2enhancement

saves:
11/6/6 18th pali
0/3/0 2nd rogue
4/4/4 fully upgraded aura
8/8/8 charisma
5/11/3 stat bonuses
5/5/5 resistance item
4/4/4 greater heroism
--------------
37/41/29

Feats:
1) Weapon Finesse
3) Combat Expertise
6) 2Wpn fighting
9) Imp Crit:Pierce
12) Improved 2wpn fighting
15) Toughness
18) Grtr 2 weapon Fighting

The main benefit of rogue over monk is that you can have a Use Magic Device skill of 23+8charisma bonus+4 Grtr hero bonus=35. Heal scrolls are 36 or 40 I forget which. You will also gain access to stoneskin wands, shield wands--important for a non-ranger 2wpn build, ressurect scrolls, teleport scrolls, fireshield scrolls, etc, etc, etc.

The main benefit of monk over rogue is the 2 free feats, the extra will and fort saves, and the AC boost from wisdom.

Also, I did make a mistake. Paladin does not have an enhancement that adds to STR, they have an enhancement that adds to damage, so it would be a +6 damage boost, not a +6 strength boost.

captain1z
11-10-2009, 04:46 PM
Why not do minimum str and get weapon finesse?

Can you use a shield with evasion? If so, how much AC down is a light armor and shield tank looking at?

If by minimum str you mean 8-10 that would cause problems at higher levels when you start fighting creatures with any sort of DR.

The most DR you are likely to encounter will be DR 10 (15 is also possible) so to do any damage at all you may need to overcome these 10 pts. Best case scenario you have 10 str with no bonus to damage a +5 rapier that does 1d6+5 you will be able to overcome the DR on a roll off 11 which reduced will actually do 1 pt of damage. Thats if you roll max damage, meaning 5/6 times you will do zero damage.

Many weapon effects only work if you do at least 1 pt of damage. To avoid this I recommended a str of 13 on your build to end with a str of 20 which gives you +5 to damage, so that rapier now does 1d6+10. You would be able to penetrate all but the toughest DR on your lowest possible damage roll.


You can use a shield with evasion, no problem at all. Light armor with enough Dexterity to back it up can have as much AC as heavy armor and sometimes more (but you need special gear) you do still have the advantage of evasion though which heavy armor does not.

Example:

Human Fighter with +5 full plate and the max dexterity allowed and a +5 shield has an AC of

base 10
fullplate 14 (mithral Full plate 14)
shield 7
max dex 1 (mithral fullplate 3)
------------
AC 32 (w/ MFP 34)

Human Fighter with +5 Leather and max dexterity allowed and +5 shield has an AC of

base 10
leather 7 (special gear Mithral breast plate 10)
shield 7
max dex 6 (mithral Breastplate 5)
-----------
AC 30 (AC w/ MBP 32)


Human Fighter with 30 Dex and a +5 shield

base 10
full plate 14
shield 7
max dex 1 (MFP 3)
--------------------
AC 32 (34)

base 10
Armored Bracers +8 (these are light armor substitutes but take the wrist slot leaving body open for robes likely)
shield 7
max dex 10 ( they actually have no max but this is what the sample character has)
--------------------
AC 35 but can be more

lod254
11-10-2009, 09:14 PM
@captain1z

Thanks for the great advice. I'm really looking to make a defensive paladin that would always be sword and board. I'm trying to get a build made up to post right now. Pointers on the build will be greatly appreciated.

I look 2 rogue for evasion. I took 1 fighter for the feat and tower shield proficiency. I could decide between 2fighter/16paly or 1/17.

Because of high paladin saves, can I ignore balance?

Can I use base 12str to get to 20? 2tome 6item? I might plop that extra point in str because my other skills require 2 for additional anyway.

I'm very undecided on feats. I know I was force of personality to swap will saves to cha. I need weapon finesse to convert my damage from str to dex. Toughness is usually a given. Combat expertise to bump my AC more and is the reason for 11int to start and a 2tome at 7. The shield masteries are likely to go.

Here is the mess I came up with. Race and everything is still a toss up. Its a 32pt build so I added +2 to con from tomes at lvl 1 (1con=2ability pts and I'd have 4 extra than the 28 allowed)

Explain paladins and cha to me a bit if you can. What are the major paladin levels?

What changes do you see from dex bonus to AC as dex increases using light or robe armor? If I use a +8bracer and increase from 28 to 30 dex, that bonus to I obtain? How about using a mithril breastplate?


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Tank Paladin
Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(1 Fighter \ 17 Paladin \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 296
Spell Points: 164
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 16
Will: 13

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 13 13
Dexterity 18 18
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 11 13
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 8 22
Bluff 3 3
Concentration 4 4
Diplomacy 3 3
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 7 7
Heal -1 -1
Hide 4 4
Intimidate 7 26
Jump 5 5.5
Listen 2 4
Move Silently 4 4
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 0 3
Spot 3 5
Swim 1 1
Tumble 5 5
Use Magic Device 7 7

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Finesse


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)

tihocan
11-11-2009, 08:21 AM
Thanks for the great advice. I'm really looking to make a defensive paladin that would always be sword and board.
Just a note: be aware that you will feel like (and pretty much be) a dead weight in a number of quests/raid where what matters is DPS, not defense. It can be frustrating to be useless and feel like a leech. I know someone who started along the same line and eventually respecced into TWF to at least be a bit more useful to the party.


I look 2 rogue for evasion. I took 1 fighter for the feat and tower shield proficiency. I could decide between 2fighter/16paly or 1/17.
Kinda sucks to lose on Defender of Siberys III...


Because of high paladin saves, can I ignore balance?
No, you'll still get tripped.


Can I use base 12str to get to 20? 2tome 6item? I might plop that extra point in str because my other skills require 2 for additional anyway.
You can, though your DPS will be sub-par. Looks like you're not even planning to take power attack...


I'm very undecided on feats. I know I was force of personality to swap will saves to cha. I need weapon finesse to convert my damage from str to dex. Toughness is usually a given. Combat expertise to bump my AC more and is the reason for 11int to start and a 2tome at 7. The shield masteries are likely to go.
You probably don't need FoP with the paladin bonus to saves. Sure, it'll help in a few situations, but overall since you're starved on feats, you can probably get better stuff.


What are the major paladin levels?
I'm definitely not a paladin expert, but at least 18 for tier III of prestige enhancements, and 14 for L4 spells.


What changes do you see from dex bonus to AC as dex increases using light or robe armor? If I use a +8bracer and increase from 28 to 30 dex, that bonus to I obtain? How about using a mithril breastplate?
One thing that doesn't work well with your build idea is using a tower shield with evasion. Because evasion means light armor, which means high Dex, but the tower shield will cap your dex bonus to AC.

lod254
11-11-2009, 03:55 PM
I'm trying to keep dex up to attempt to get a similar AC for a light armor/robe + bracers char that uses evasion. Dex is also being used to generate a high reflex save.

I might just need to reconsider the value of evasion and drop it and the 2 rogue levels for 2fighter/18paly.

What I initially wanted was... (after realizing Drow can't be 32pt)

13 Str
18 Dex
12 Con
11 Int
8 Wis
16 Cha

I'm now rethinking dropping evasion, but keeping a dex build. How does Dex affect AC though? If I'm wearing heavy armor and a tower, is dex over a certain point a waste? Does the cut off for light or robe and tower as well? 11 int is obviously for a +2tome to get Combat Expertise later.

My reasoning for 13str is that I need 20 to bypass DR on the toughest mobs. I can do this with a +2tome and +6item. I could drop it to 12, but I had an extra stat point and it needed a home. I know my damage won't be phenomenal, but I'm going the tank route.

What sort of AC do the following have at max self buffed? TWF Evasion Paly (18paly/2rogue)? Intimitank Fighter (likely pure fighter, but any way you see it)? Dex build Paly Tank (2figher/18paly) with +8bracers/Robe or Light Armor, both carrying a tower? Dex build paly tank (2fighter/18paly) in heavy with a tower?


I'd like to hear more about how a robe/bracer8 char gets more AC than a heavy armor tank. I hear that the dex AC bonus is limited by the tower...

tihocan
11-11-2009, 04:24 PM
I'd like to hear more about how a robe/bracer8 char gets more AC than a heavy armor tank. I hear that the dex AC bonus is limited by the tower...
Typically the robe/bracer8 (or dragontouched robe + chaosguarde) is not using a shield, but instead relying on a monk splash to get Wis bonus to AC.

If you're using a Tower shield, consider for instance the Hound one, it has a max dex bonus to AC of 4. Add +3 with fighter enhancements. Another +3 with the Defender of Siberys (I think). That gives you a +10 dex bonus to AC, so you can reach it with 30 Dex.
The robe+bracers combo will thus give you 8 + 10 = 18 AC (+ the shield).
Compare this to heavy armor (DT armor, going dwarf for dwarven armor mastery to be able to increase the max dex bonus to AC to 10 as well): it gives 15 + 10 = 25 AC (+ the shield). Add +2 with chaosguarde.

So by going in robe you're losing 7-9 AC. If you go light armor with chaosguarde, you get 8 + 10 + 2 = 20 AC (+ the shield). So only slightly better than robe, and still 7 AC behind the heavy armor.

Conclusion: using a tower shield in light armor/robe does not work well (if the goal is to have a high AC character).

PS: about the sentence: "I know my damage won't be phenomenal, but I'm going the tank route". If you don't even take the TWF feats, your damage will be really pathetic and you are likely to regret this choice when you reach L15+.

captain1z
11-11-2009, 04:31 PM
Last night I wrote a very long and detailed post responding to yours, with a buncha links and everything. Then I clicked in the wrong window to get another link and erased the entire post by mistake after spendind 1 hour putting it together. I wasnt going to do it again........... at least not last night, so heres the quick version.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Paladin this is the compendium entry for paladins

http://ddowiki.com/page/Dragontouched_Armor this is the wiki for Dragontouched armor

- 2 fighter gives you 2 feats and +1 to strength

- High saves Might keep you from falling (its a reflex save usually) but balance helps you get up off the ground..... paladin saves do not effect balance. Your balance will be pretty high tho if you plan on having high dex and light armor...... it wont be an issue for you, dont focus to heavily on it. 10-15 in balance is good enough usually and your dex alone is gonna give you 10.

- You are not gonna have a lot of feats as it is. Id focus on more combat feats, your saves will be fine as a paladin adds his Charisma bonus to all saves vs Fort, reflex and Will. Force of personality may be overkill for you and it only adds to your will save, not the others.
Its a good feat but not right for you.

- Paladin level break points are 2/6/14/15/18/20 (refer to the paladin compendium)

level 2 gets you Divine grace saves bonus. If a sorcerer takes 18 levels of sorc and 2 of paladin he will have divine grace from the 2 pali levels and maybe a 34 charisma as a sorc. This would boost his saves by +12. Works for any class or character with good charisma who takes 2 pali levels

- level 6 gets you the 1st teir of a prestige class. Generally speaking its not worth it but in the case of a warforged, he can take the lord of blades ability which could be of use depending on the build.

- level 14 you get one 4th level spell. Zeal & Holy Sword are the 2 spells that make a paladin more combat able. Having access to these spells is a must for a serious paladin.

- level 15 is when you get your strongest arua's and +5 bonus to AC for you and your group.

- level 18 is the 3rd and last teir of the 3 prestige classes for paladins. Many paladins will take the first 18 levels then take 2 fighter for combat feats or 2 rogue/monk for evasion.

- level 20 gives you access to weapon of good, which makes any weapon in your hand good aligned and does an extra +1d6 damage


Those are the best places to stop in paladin levels.......3 gives you fear immunity and 4 gives you disease immunity but I cant justify taking 3-4 levels for that purpose as your saves will be high enough to prevent most of that and there are other ways to avoid it all together. Hope this info helps

lod254
11-11-2009, 07:09 PM
Last night I wrote a very long and detailed post responding to yours, with a buncha links and everything. Then I clicked in the wrong window to get another link and erased the entire post by mistake after spendind 1 hour putting it together. I wasnt going to do it again........... at least not last night, so heres the quick version.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Paladin this is the compendium entry for paladins

http://ddowiki.com/page/Dragontouched_Armor this is the wiki for Dragontouched armor

Blahh and now my boss just came in...will update later

Haha I'm sorry for your loss, its ours too. Thanks for the help though.

E I was looking at the armors...


* Dragontouched Plate Armor
o Armor bonus: +15 (2 better than usual)
o Max Dex: +1
* Dragontouched Breastplate
o Armor bonus: +12 (2 better than usual)
o Max Dex: +3
* Dragontouched Leather Armor
o Armor bonus: +8
o Max Dex: +7 (2 better than usual)
* Dragontouched Docent
o Armor bonus: +5
o +2 Reinforced Plating (inherent AC bonus)
* Dragontouched Shroud (Robe)
o Armor bonus: +6
* Dragontouched Vestments (Outfit)
o Armor bonus: +6


So in summary

Heavy - 16
Med - 15
Light - 15
None - 6 (14 with +8bracer)

They could all use the same shield. What dex bonus does a robe gain from 30dex vs the others?

People seem to be saying if I throw on a tower, I can only gain the dex bonus AC allowed by the tower and no more.

captain1z
11-11-2009, 07:41 PM
None - 6 (14 with +8bracer)

They could all use the same shield. What dex bonus does a robe gain from 30dex vs the others?

People seem to be saying if I throw on a tower, I can only gain the dex bonus AC allowed by the tower and no more.

DT vestments dont stack with bracers but if you look at the chart you can gain other prperties to the outfit that boost it higher than +8

30 dex wearing robes will get +10 from dex..... there is no restriction
most heavy armors cap dex bonus at 1 (this includes tower shields)
light armors cap dex bonus between 5-8 depending on the armor

A large shield is better for a high dex character who wants to use a shield

tihocan
11-11-2009, 08:03 PM
So in summary

Heavy - 16
Med - 15
Light - 15
None - 6 (14 with +8bracer)

They could all use the same shield. What dex bonus does a robe gain from 30dex vs the others?

People seem to be saying if I throw on a tower, I can only gain the dex bonus AC allowed by the tower and no more.
Both the armor and shield may limit your dex bonus to AC.
The numbers you wrote above are flawed because they take into account the base armor's max dex bonus to AC without the enhancements that improve it.
That being said, my own numbers were flawed as well because I somehow forgot we were in a paladin thread so you can't access the fighter armor mastery enhancements ;)
Basically, you need to figure out first to which extent you can increase your armor and tower shield max dex bonus to AC. At this point you can compare the various armor/shield setup.
I can't remember if paladins get something for that (besides the Defender of Siberys line), and don't have time to check now.

PS: ah, and Daggertooth's belt actually gives fighter armor mastery IIRC. Need to take that into account as well.
PPS: making an AC build is not easy in DDO :p

captain1z
11-11-2009, 08:33 PM
I'm trying to keep dex up to attempt to get a similar AC for a light armor/robe + bracers char that uses evasion. Dex is also being used to generate a high reflex save.

I might just need to reconsider the value of evasion and drop it and the 2 rogue levels for 2fighter/18paly.

What I initially wanted was... (after realizing Drow can't be 32pt)

13 Str
18 Dex
12 Con ****
11 Int
8 Wis
16 Cha ****

I'm now rethinking dropping evasion, but keeping a dex build. .


**** Never sacrifice constitution for charisma on a paladin, you will get hit and go down like a wet noodle. First and foremost you are a melee, if not front line then at least 2nd****

If you are gonna go DEX it would be a waste to not have evasion. As a rule if you are gonna go 2 fighter/ 18 pali you wanna have high strength and wear heavy armor.... as you saw in the examples, your AC will be about the same either way.

If you go the 2 rogue/ 18 pali have some dex to make evasion work for you.




Typically the robe/bracer8 (or dragontouched robe + chaosguarde) is not using a shield, but instead relying on a monk splash to get Wis bonus to AC.

If you're using a Tower shield, consider for instance the Hound one, it has a max dex bonus to AC of 4. Add +3 with fighter enhancements. Another +3 with the Defender of Siberys (I think). That gives you a +10 dex bonus to AC, so you can reach it with 30 Dex.
The robe+bracers combo will thus give you 8 + 10 = 18 AC (+ the shield).
Compare this to heavy armor (DT armor, going dwarf for dwarven armor mastery to be able to increase the max dex bonus to AC to 10 as well): it gives 15 + 10 = 25 AC (+ the shield). Add +2 with chaosguarde.

So by going in robe you're losing 7-9 AC. If you go light armor with chaosguarde, you get 8 + 10 + 2 = 20 AC (+ the shield). So only slightly better than robe, and still 7 AC behind the heavy armor.

Conclusion: using a tower shield in light armor/robe does not work well (if the goal is to have a high AC character).

PS: about the sentence: "I know my damage won't be phenomenal, but I'm going the tank route". If you don't even take the TWF feats, your damage will be really pathetic and you are likely to regret this choice when you reach L15+.

Tihocan is correct about the Tower Shield and high dex, the ways he showed to get the most AC out of a tower shield are on point but what he didnt mention is that the amount of action points it will cost you to do that will make it so you cant afford to do much else enhancement wise. Again making tower shield a bad choice.



********Dont forget that a 15th level paladin will get +5 to AC from his arua of good thats gonna make a huge difference*****


example: with the gear

base 10
dex 10
DT vest 6
chaos Garde 2
arua 5
deflection 5 (protection item)
insight 4 (shroud item or DT ritual)
natural 4 (bark potion or DT ritual)
crafting ritual 1
-------------------
ac 47 (49 w/ +8 bracers)

w/ shield spell clicky 51

w/ shield equipped 54 (55 with shield crafting ritual)

w/ dragontouched ability leviks defender added to vestments gives +5 but does stack with natural AC from the vestment.... it will stack with a barkskin pot though.


+8 bracers are very hard to get but +7 is much easier to come by. Dragon touched vestments can give you +10 to armor class if done a certain way and is by far the easiest of the 3 to acquire. Its gaurenteed after you run the Stealer of souls quest and changing them into something you really want after that is easy but time consuming. Always a work in progress.

Be patient.

lod254
11-11-2009, 08:58 PM
So do armor and tower add separately for Dex to AC?

Lets say Tower + Full Plate, they both get +1 so the limir it 1 or 2?

If I did robe + tower is my limit 1 or infinite?

A def dex based paly is looking less feasible to me, but the idea of nasty saves and the AC sounded great at first.

captain1z
11-11-2009, 09:04 PM
So do armor and tower add separately for Dex to AC?

Lets say Tower + Full Plate, they both get +1 so the limir it 1 or 2?

If I did robe + tower is my limit 1 or infinite?

A def dex based paly is looking less feasible to me, but the idea of nasty saves and the AC sounded great at first.

A limit from any source affects everything. If you wear mithral bp with a dex allowance of 5 with a tower shield that has a dex allowance of 1, the tower shield brings the mithral bp's allowance down to 1 as well.

Dexterity is only added once to the total so anything that limits it affects the whole deal.



Dex builds are not easy to make, one mistake could render it near useless. Str builds are by far easier............. but a dex build done right has much more survivabilty than a strength build and needs less clerical attention.


I will tell you this............

No one makes a perfect character the 1st time out, very often it takes trial and error and experimentation. Ive made dozens of rogues as practice for the day I make the perfect rogue, the one I have now is awesome but not perfect. After many fighters I can easily say I have a handle on how to build one, rangers.... Im getting much better after my last strength build. Its a learning process, make a character, build him up, see how he works and what doesnt then make another to improve upon what you have learned.

Its never gonna be perfect the 1st time because you the player dont have the experience yet.


Also...... I have utterly failed at every attempt to make either a bard or halfling of anykind. Spellcasters Ive only as of the last month managed to make a good one and even still I havent mastered making one that does amazing damage or has tons of sp or really high spell DCs...... but after 4 years Im getting better at all this stuff.


It takes time and some are better than others naturally. Dont be afraid to try anything but dont forget to have some fun it just a game.

lod254
11-12-2009, 06:51 AM
@captain1z

I've got a defensive fighter I experiment on and my main is a sorc. The caster is going very well and I've made minor mistakes that will iron out in the higher levels.

DDO is just so vastly different than most games and I didn't play PnP. I'm 23 so I guess it was before my time because my friends and I were probably the type of people that would have played. Technology has ruined me, I probably couldn't get into it now.

My PnP is now theoretical building online with you guys.


Shield/AC/Max Dex Bonus/DR (From the Compendium)

Buckler/+1/99/1
Small/+1/99/1
Large/+2/99/2
Tower/+4/2/4

Will a mithril tower increase the dex to only 4? A google search showed these results, or will it increase it to 99 because its classified as a large shield?


End Game Guesses (Ignore armor/shield masteries)

Shield - Tower (4+5)
Armor - +5 DC Heavy (5+15)
Bracers - n/a to AC
Max Dex - 1
Dex Bonus @30 - 1

Total AC - 31

Shield - Large (2+5) [Loses 2AC to tower, gains that easily from dex bonus)
Armor - +5DC Light (5+8)
Bracers - n/a to AC
Max Dex - 7
Dex Bonus @30 - 7

Total AC - 7+13+7=27


Shield - Large (2+5)
Armor - +5 DC Robe (5+6)
Bracers - 0 because of 6AC robe
Max Dex - 99
Dex Bonus @30 - 10

Total AC - 7+11+8+10=28

Further Dex scores only support the Robe/Large Shield/Bracers combo. Did I miss anything? If not, I'll continue to try to build off of the Robe/Large/Bracer combo with Evasion.

What are some key AC feats/enhancements? Dodge, Armor/Shield Mastery, Stalwart Defender?, Spec'd Paladin Aura...

2 rogue seems a definite with the possibility of more or monk.

I came across this build "http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=194791" and it has sparked some of my interest.

I hear about 100AC tanks, but have yet to see a build supporting it.

tihocan
11-12-2009, 08:46 AM
I can't remember if paladins get something for that (besides the Defender of Siberys line), and don't have time to check now.
So, I looked quickly, and as far as I can tell you can only boost your max dex bonus to AC through the Defender of Siberys line. So, if you go Tower Shield with a base 4 max dex bonus to AC, you can boost it to +7. You can reach +7 on heavy DT armor as well if you're dwarf. This means you only need 24 Dex to max it out, and any further Dex is wasted (true also in light armor or robe if you still want that tower shield).

=> Conclusion is the same: if you are using a tower shield, it's a bad idea to have evasion, because it means light/no armor, which means significantly lower AC than with heavy armor.
=> If you want evasion, either use a regular shield or no shield + monk splash with good wis

captain1z
11-12-2009, 04:29 PM
Shield/AC/Max Dex Bonus/DR (From the Compendium)

Buckler/+1/99/1
Small/+1/99/1
Large/+2/99/2
Tower/+4/2/4 **** dex is resticted to 1, this is a error, compendium has a few****

Will a mithril tower increase the dex to only 4? A google search showed these results, or will it increase it to 99 because its classified as a large shield?

**** mithral will increase max allowable dex on any armor or shield by +2, even tho it becomes lighter due to the mithral quality some penalties still apply... max dex wont go to 99****


End Game Guesses (Ignore armor/shield masteries)

Shield - Tower (4+5)
Armor - +5 DC Heavy (5+15)
Bracers - n/a to AC
Max Dex - 1 *****dex bonus is only added once. here you have added it twice but are otherwise correct***
Dex Bonus @30 - 1

Total AC - 31

Shield - Large (2+5) [Loses 2AC to tower, gains that easily from dex bonus)
Armor - +5DC Light (5+8) ***Is this DragonTouched leather?***
Bracers - n/a to AC
Max Dex - 7
Dex Bonus @30 - 7

Total AC - 7+13+7=27 **** I dont know what +5DC is but your formula is correct, numbers might not be***


Shield - Large (2+5)
Armor - +5 DC Robe (5+6) **** DT robes only give you +6 to start but other elements can be added to it***
Bracers - 0 because of 6AC robe
Max Dex - 99
Dex Bonus @30 - 10

Total AC - 7+11+8+10=28 *** again formula is correct but I think the numbers are off and that +8 doesnt seem to come from anywhere***

Further Dex scores only support the Robe/Large Shield/Bracers combo. Did I miss anything? If not, I'll continue to try to build off of the Robe/Large/Bracer combo with Evasion.

What are some key AC feats/enhancements? Dodge, Armor/Shield Mastery, Stalwart Defender?, Spec'd Paladin Aura...

2 rogue seems a definite with the possibility of more or monk.

I came across this build "http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=194791" and it has sparked some of my interest.

I hear about 100AC tanks, but have yet to see a build supporting it.
Added some comments to your post



With dragonTouched robes you should look like this

base 10
DT robes 6 (easy to get but you gotta run the quest)
DT leviks enhancement 5 (gotta run the same quest a few times & get lucky)
dex bonus 10
protection item 5 (easy to come by)
large shield 7
paladin aura 5
----------------
AC 48

add:
chaos garde bracers +2 (pretty easy just gotta run the quest a few times or buy them)
barkskin potion +3
alchemical armor ritual +1 (bind item with ~124 khyber shards, then add 5 vials pure water + 15 prayer beads)
alchemical shield ritual +1 (bind item w/ ~124 khyber shards, then add 2 silver flame hymnals + 3 prophecies of kyber tomes)
----------------------------
AC 55

add shroud insight weapon

Insight +4 (this will be a real grind that may take you 1-2 months)
--------------------
AC 59


AC 59 is a very nice AC..... in a raid group fully buffed this could go up by about +10....wont mean anything if you can do any damage tho....its like being a moving target...just keep that in mind


For a 100 AC build try to find a guy name Squeek AC bandit or westside

http://my.ddo.com/character/ghallanda/westside/

and you can peak at this thread

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173504&highlight=squeek+AC&page=4


These are exceptions not the norm...... walking around with 100 AC ic not possible on a regular basis for 99% of players

captain1z
11-12-2009, 05:35 PM
Been focusing a lot on AC but as I mentioned before dont forget DPS or AC means nothing.


I dont have the formula for exhalted smite here at work but I think its 7 + (paladin levels x 3)

with a strength of 20 using a +5 rapier lets see what it looks like

1D6+10 = 16 + 61 (exhalted smite) = 77 x 2 (crit) = 154

16 - 24 is the average for dex builds and rogues but rogues also have sneak attack damage to greatly increase that by about 50 pts per hit.

The rapier is an excellent weapon for critting often. With improved critical: piercing feat you will roll a critical threat on a 15-20 on d20. Best weapon for you in this case would be any burst weapons (holy burst, flaming burst and such) Stat damaging (holy of enfeebling or puncturing) any of the greater bane weapon.... especially vs elementals as you are going to have a hard time with them and construct bane. Other toys to look for will be a smiting rapier or short sword as well a banisher.

feats you will want are toughness, improved crit: piercing, weapon finesse, power attack, power attack, 2wpn fighting, plus either combat expertise or improved 2 wpn fighting

there will be times when you wont need so much AC and I think having 2wpn fighting as an option to increase your dps is an excellent idea. 2wpn fighting with power attack on this build will make you a major threat with the right weapons in hand. If you need to turtle up you can still do that and you may wanna see if you can work intimidate into the build so even when you turtle up to that nice AC you can still help out a lot by drawing attacks to yourself which hopefully will turn into misses. The barbs, wizards, clerics and rogues will love you........... you wont have a high kill count doing that but thats not the point.............. overall team success is the goal and you'd be playing a huge part in that.

lod254
11-12-2009, 07:41 PM
Added some comments to your post



With dragonTouched robes you should look like this

base 10
DT robes 6 (easy to get but you gotta run the quest) ***Aren't they 6+5?
DT leviks enhancement 5 (gotta run the same quest a few times & get lucky)
dex bonus 10
protection item 5 (easy to come by)
large shield 7
paladin aura 5
----------------
AC 48

add:
chaos garde bracers +2 (pretty easy just gotta run the quest a few times or buy them)
barkskin potion +3
alchemical armor ritual +1 (bind item with ~124 khyber shards, then add 5 vials pure water + 15 prayer beads)
alchemical shield ritual +1 (bind item w/ ~124 khyber shards, then add 2 silver flame hymnals + 3 prophecies of kyber tomes)
----------------------------
AC 55

add shroud insight weapon

Insight +4 (this will be a real grind that may take you 1-2 months)
--------------------
AC 59


AC 59 is a very nice AC..... in a raid group fully buffed this could go up by about +10....wont mean anything if you can do any damage tho....its like being a moving target...just keep that in mind


For a 100 AC build try to find a guy name Squeek AC bandit or westside

http://my.ddo.com/character/ghallanda/westside/

and you can peak at this thread

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173504&highlight=squeek+AC&page=4


These are exceptions not the norm...... walking around with 100 AC ic not possible on a regular basis for 99% of players

OMG... What's his build?

I took +8 bracers off the robe build and forgot it in the calc. I did the calcs in excel at work. I'll email it home and post tomorrow.