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View Full Version : Spot to autofind Traps



JOTMON
11-03-2009, 07:12 AM
I would like to see spot be able to autofind traps (not the trap boxes leave that for the search portion).
Similar to how true seeing shows hidden doors as you come up on them.
A high enough spot should be able to find the trap and display the trap to everyone before you run into them.
I stop everyone else runs past me into the trap... doh...
Set the benchmark higher than the current seach/spot benchmark, so a search will be much more successful in finding the trap than a spot will.
such as... search benchmark finds a trap on 20 or better, Individual spot benchmark is .. whatever..., Unhide trap to party benchmark 10 higher.
Something like an automated warning to the party that the trap is there, but to me makes sense to show the offending trap as they come up on it.

Although autoyell trap on a successful spot would be nice too..


Apparently I have trouble typing and moving at the same time. I don't know how people can run and type chat.

krud
11-03-2009, 07:16 AM
not a bad idea. No need for the rogue to type "TRAP!" in time to stop his friends from stumbling into it. I'm not sure about the benchmarks. There really is no need to set it so high.

Qzipoun
11-03-2009, 07:24 AM
/signed
/signed
/signed
and
/signed

I always thought it was silly that it did NOT work this way. You can spot that there's a trap but can't see the MASSIVE blade on the wall? By the time you search for it and see it, you've probably found the box too...

Would make spot useful for a change. Also, it would allow non-rogue classes to be of at least some help, you might not be able to disable a trap, but at least you'll have an idea of what path to take to avoid as much damage as possible (rangers get spot as a class skill for example but it's useless, I don't even think they can spot traps at higher levels which is silly).

That said, i've suggested this long ago and it never happened :(

JOTMON
11-03-2009, 07:30 AM
True the bench mark may not need to be that high, but its a start.

Would be awsome to see a crit find option where if your skill is high enough that the trap autodisables as you come up on it.

Something along the lines of you come upon a pathetic challenge to your skill and you easily decipher the trap/find a safe passage through the trap... 'click' trap autodisabled....

Then you don't have to wait there for the search timer then go to the disable trap timer and then catch up to the rest of the party who just ran past you.

kafrielveddicus
11-03-2009, 10:10 AM
To the OP Great Idea!!!!

Signed

SableShadow
11-03-2009, 10:13 AM
True the bench mark may not need to be that high, but its a start.

Would be awsome to see a crit find option where if your skill is high enough that the trap autodisables as you come up on it.

Something along the lines of you come upon a pathetic challenge to your skill and you easily decipher the trap/find a safe passage through the trap... 'click' trap autodisabled....

Then you don't have to wait there for the search timer then go to the disable trap timer and then catch up to the rest of the party who just ran past you.

Not a big fan of messing with trap DCs until they add rolls to spot and search, and change crit fail from 'blown box' to 'trigger trap on trapsmith'.

Lyria
11-03-2009, 01:10 PM
True the bench mark may not need to be that high, but its a start.

Would be awsome to see a crit find option where if your skill is high enough that the trap autodisables as you come up on it.

Something along the lines of you come upon a pathetic challenge to your skill and you easily decipher the trap/find a safe passage through the trap... 'click' trap autodisabled....

Then you don't have to wait there for the search timer then go to the disable trap timer and then catch up to the rest of the party who just ran past you.

Um. No, I really, really don't agree with this.

So you want enough spot to basically make search/disarm completely useless?

This would just lead to people stacking tons of spot on their characters, and not bothering with rogues anymore except for the occasional locked door/chest.

Heck, why not just have the game check your BAB and damage, compare it to the mob, and have the mob auto-die when you get near them, at that point? Or just have it figure it all out at the start of the dungeon, determine if it's really a challenge, and auto-award exp/favor/loot to you?

Hyperbole? Sure. But what you're suggesting is a step in that direction.

Cyr
11-03-2009, 02:49 PM
Good idea OP. I like that the concept of revealing the trap, but leaving the box for the actual search skill.

SkyCry
11-05-2009, 01:53 AM
/signed!

But make autofind DC higher (+5? +10) than warning DC.

Uska
11-05-2009, 02:01 AM
not signed doesnt feel right to me.

Visty
11-05-2009, 02:04 AM
Um. No, I really, really don't agree with this.

So you want enough spot to basically make search/disarm completely useless?


in no way does this suggestion make those skills worthless

you still need search to find the box, you still need disarm to disarm it

all this suggestion does is showing the trap like trueseeing shows hidden doors when you walk nearby

JOTMON
11-05-2009, 09:04 AM
Um. No, I really, really don't agree with this.

So you want enough spot to basically make search/disarm completely useless?

This would just lead to people stacking tons of spot on their characters, and not bothering with rogues anymore except for the occasional locked door/chest.

Heck, why not just have the game check your BAB and damage, compare it to the mob, and have the mob auto-die when you get near them, at that point? Or just have it figure it all out at the start of the dungeon, determine if it's really a challenge, and auto-award exp/favor/loot to you?

Hyperbole? Sure. But what you're suggesting is a step in that direction.

Not what I am talking about at all...
Spot would only be for finding traps not the boxes, like true seeing does for finding doors.

Search is the factor for autofinding trap boxes (still having the requirement that any trapbox over the 20 benchmark requires rogue) if the search skill greatly exceeds the search benchmark

the disable device skill would be the factor for the autodisable traps if the DD skill greatly exceeds the trapbox benchmark.

For example a ranger with a 40 skill in spot and and search walks by a trapped hall with a benchmark 25 trap.
The trap spikes auto displays for the party to see. The trap box does not pop up since he has no rogue levels. The splashed rogue walks up with his 40 search skill and the trapbox pops up on the other side of the trap automatically but does not autodisable the trap, he could disable it with his 30 DD skill but would have to get through the trap to do it. The trap specc'ed rogue walks up with his 60 Disable device and assesses the situation, identifies the trap, control box and its weaknesses. He easily exceeds the trapbuilders skill requirement and the trap disables automatically.

Elyanna
11-05-2009, 09:18 AM
Not what I am talking about at all...
Spot would only be for finding traps not the boxes, like true seeing does for finding doors.

Search is the factor for autofinding trap boxes (still having the requirement that any trapbox over the 20 benchmark requires rogue) if the search skill greatly exceeds the search benchmark

the disable device skill would be the factor for the autodisable traps if the DD skill greatly exceeds the trapbox benchmark.

For example a ranger with a 40 skill in spot and and search walks by a trapped hall with a benchmark 25 trap.
The trap spikes auto displays for the party to see. The trap box does not pop up since he has no rogue levels. The splashed rogue walks up with his 40 search skill and the trapbox pops up on the other side of the trap automatically but does not autodisable the trap, he could disable it with his 30 DD skill but would have to get through the trap to do it. The trap specc'ed rogue walks up with his 60 Disable device and assesses the situation, identifies the trap, control box and its weaknesses. He easily exceeds the trapbuilders skill requirement and the trap disables automatically.

Only issue I can see is a lot of rogues swap equipment to get their skills to the proper level. Which is why you should have to spot the trap (i'm fine with this showing the trap but not the box), Search (shows the control panel), then disable device. Auto would not be right since it would be using lower numbers than the character actually has. What if the auto comes up a critical failure on the disable will it be smart enough to know that wasn't a proper disable attempt. Then if it is smart enough to see that it wasn't a player generated attempt does it bork the code for a player attempt.

ahpook
11-05-2009, 10:41 AM
Only issue I can see is a lot of rogues swap equipment to get their skills to the proper level. Which is why you should have to spot the trap (i'm fine with this showing the trap but not the box), Search (shows the control panel), then disable device. Auto would not be right since it would be using lower numbers than the character actually has. What if the auto comes up a critical failure on the disable will it be smart enough to know that wasn't a proper disable attempt. Then if it is smart enough to see that it wasn't a player generated attempt does it bork the code for a player attempt.

The auto-disable would only fire if you were well over the DC trap eg surpassed by 20 points). There would be no chance of a failure because the auto-disable would not even fire if you didn't have enough DD to make success an automatic.

BTW, I like these ideas and they give a good reason to exceed the trap skill watermarks.

Janth
11-05-2009, 10:55 AM
I wish spot showed us the trap and the secret doors. I understand why it does not. The way it works now is like getting "a feeling." Yet it is also what lets us "see" stealthed enemies. I definitely think it would make the game easier if they rolled search and spot into the same skill as it would save everyone skill points. Just lock some of the hidden doors and rogues would be actually more useful. On that point you could roll unlock and disable into the same skill too with casters being able to knock trap boxes. Just my opinion on something that would make the game easier, but then does the game really need to be easier? I'm glad I have voice chat on my ranger so I can yell trap and door. Cheers.

Indrn_Fretgoop
11-05-2009, 11:28 AM
IMO thre best way impliment this is by using the highest persons spot then a box like u get for yourself appear for the whole party as if ur character said it.

ahpook
11-05-2009, 11:34 AM
IMO thre best way impliment this is by using the highest persons spot then a box like u get for yourself appear for the whole party as if ur character said it.

The box only works if everyone is together. You don't want a character in another part of the dungeon getting the warning. You could only give the warning to people in a 30 foot radius but unhiding the traps would seem to provide that proximity filter automatically.

I could live with an auto text where you character says "I am near a trap" in party chat whenever they get the warning.

Borror0
11-05-2009, 11:40 AM
A better implementation, to me, would be this:

A successful Spot check triggers an immediate Search without the animation.
If the Search was successful, then the trap is shown to other players.
If the Search was unsuccessful, there should be an alarm displayed to other players (either in party chat or at the top of the screen).

This way, you keep both Search and Spot relevant rather than have Spot trump Search.

The advantage in doing this is that, if traps ever become randomly displayed in dungeons, it will greatly improve the players' experience and the usefulness of Spot. Until then, it at least makes Spot useful to veterans and gives players the long requested "Search without animation".

EDIT: The alarm could also be displayed on a successful Search if deemed necessary, useful or easier to implement this way.

Lyria
11-05-2009, 11:50 AM
Not what I am talking about at all...
Spot would only be for finding traps not the boxes, like true seeing does for finding doors.

Search is the factor for autofinding trap boxes (still having the requirement that any trapbox over the 20 benchmark requires rogue) if the search skill greatly exceeds the search benchmark

the disable device skill would be the factor for the autodisable traps if the DD skill greatly exceeds the trapbox benchmark.

For example a ranger with a 40 skill in spot and and search walks by a trapped hall with a benchmark 25 trap.
The trap spikes auto displays for the party to see. The trap box does not pop up since he has no rogue levels. The splashed rogue walks up with his 40 search skill and the trapbox pops up on the other side of the trap automatically but does not autodisable the trap, he could disable it with his 30 DD skill but would have to get through the trap to do it. The trap specc'ed rogue walks up with his 60 Disable device and assesses the situation, identifies the trap, control box and its weaknesses. He easily exceeds the trapbuilders skill requirement and the trap disables automatically.

I still don't agree with this. Anything that removes interactivity between the player and the game and turns it into a simple case of "just stack enough points in a skill and you can run through the dungeon at a sprint without worry" seems ridiculous to me.

I understand that you're frustrated that your party ignores you when you try and stop to disarm a trap. But dumbing down the traps so that you can auto-find/disarm them isn't the right way to go, imo. The only thing this would do if implemented is force the minimum DC for traps to go even higher, to prevent exactly what you're suggesting. Otherwise traps, which are one of the most unique things about DDO dungeons, become trivial.

Borror0
11-05-2009, 11:54 AM
interactivity between the player and the game
What do you mean by that?

JOTMON
11-05-2009, 03:38 PM
I still don't agree with this. Anything that removes interactivity between the player and the game and turns it into a simple case of "just stack enough points in a skill and you can run through the dungeon at a sprint without worry" seems ridiculous to me.

I understand that you're frustrated that your party ignores you when you try and stop to disarm a trap. But dumbing down the traps so that you can auto-find/disarm them isn't the right way to go, imo. The only thing this would do if implemented is force the minimum DC for traps to go even higher, to prevent exactly what you're suggesting. Otherwise traps, which are one of the most unique things about DDO dungeons, become trivial.

I don't see this as taking anything away from the game, there is still a requirement to maintain a healthy investment into stats and gear for spotting searching and disabling traps. It just rewards the exceptional and tweaked investment into those stats.
Mix and matching gear and keeping stats at the levels required I don't is as simple as stacking enough points in a skill, there are a lot of skills that require points to be of any use. Most classes (rogue with intel being an exception) don't have enough skill points to spread around to be to keep all these stats maximized. Ranger/Rogue splashes can come close, but even still would not be a easy task.

salmag
11-05-2009, 04:03 PM
What do you mean by that?

I could be wrong but I think Lyria views this as a "TOO" Easy Button.

If the trap Spot DC is 25 and a Ranger has a 40 Spot he should be warned of the trap; however, the fighter with a Spot of 20 should not be warned. By instantly showing the layout of the trap to everyone just because of the Ranger's Spot makes things a tad bit easier for the group. In this regard, I kind-of agree with Lyria.

What if, for instance, the Rogue didn't want to inform the zerging fighter of the trap's location, in hopes that the zerging fighter would learn a valuable lesson and possibly slow down. ;) I know it's a form of griefing but... :rolleyes:

The current Spot warning that is in game works as intended and forces people to interact with each other and the game itself.

just my opinion...

SkyCry
11-05-2009, 04:50 PM
What if, for instance, the Rogue didn't want to inform the zerging fighter of the trap's location, in hopes that the zerging fighter would learn a valuable lesson and possibly slow down. ;) I know it's a form of griefing but... :rolleyes:

Yes, you acknowledge it would be griefing, hence not a valid reason. Besides, rogue would have to be ahead of rushing fighter to see the trap, so the fighter isn't really rushing that much.

Borror0
11-05-2009, 07:15 PM
If the trap Spot DC is 25 and a Ranger has a 40 Spot he should be warned of the trap; however, the fighter with a Spot of 20 should not be warned. By instantly showing the layout of the trap to everyone just because of the Ranger's Spot makes things a tad bit easier for the group.
If we assume that the ranger has voice chat, there is no difference between the behavior now and the behavior after the change. If, however, the ranger does not have voice then the fighter might run into the trap therefore making of Spot a waste of skill points.

Whether your argument is realism or facilitating the gameplay of users without voice chat, the argument of making things "too easy" is ineffective because, for a wide percentage of the playerbase, there is little to no difference in gameplay. The difference is for those who do not use voice chat. If you believe that this would make things too easy, then you should probably campaign for Turbine to remove voice chat from the game first.

Wyllie
11-05-2009, 07:21 PM
I do not like the idea of the traps auto-showing when detected; spot will then become way more valuable than disarm trap as most traps can be navigated if you know where they are. Who needs disarm when you can run around the trap?

I like the idea of an "Above the Head Icon" similar to /LFB or /LFH that shows up for X seconds after a character detects a trap or hidden door. This way the party can quickly be aware of the situation.

sephiroth1084
11-05-2009, 07:42 PM
I like the idea of an icon or some other visual cue popping up for all players when the rogue successfully spots a trap. I don't think that the trap itself need be displayed in such an instance.

If players decide to ignore the fact that a trap is present, its their prerogative. I'd rather not have rogues inadvertently contributing to players zerging through traps, especially since it would just make rangers even more valuable, while not really improving the stock of rogues dramatically.

Surrealistik
11-05-2009, 07:55 PM
/signed, automated alerts make far too much sense to pass up.

Falco_Easts
11-05-2009, 08:22 PM
I like the idea of an icon showing above someone's head with a succesful spot. I like the idea of if your spot is X over the required spot for the trap the box will show up for you without having to go through the search animation (yay for saving time!) but i don't like the idea of the trap location showing up for the entire party.

Lyria
11-05-2009, 11:33 PM
I could be wrong but I think Lyria views this as a "TOO" Easy Button.

If the trap Spot DC is 25 and a Ranger has a 40 Spot he should be warned of the trap; however, the fighter with a Spot of 20 should not be warned. By instantly showing the layout of the trap to everyone just because of the Ranger's Spot makes things a tad bit easier for the group. In this regard, I kind-of agree with Lyria.

Somewhat, yes. What I mean by reducing interactivity is that once you reach a certain threshold of spot/search/disarm, you don't even have to slow down for traps, let alone stop to disarm them. You wouldn't even need to KNOW there was a trap there. You'd just be sprinting along, and get the "you spotted/disarmed a trap!" message, without even breaking stride. The player no longer has to interact with the trap; the trap is automatically negated by virtue of high stats. Certain 'tricky' traps, where the box is inside the trap itself (requiring evasion to disarm), or on the other side of a number of lethal traps, becomes a non-issue. The rogue auto-disarms the trap once they get close to it.

Once people figure out what the minimum levels are for auto-spot/disarm, that will be the new "must have" for groups. Why should they sit and WAIT for the rogue to search out the trap, when they can just grab someone with massive stats and just have them sprinting one step ahead of the rest of the group, so everything is auto-disarmed?


I don't see this as taking anything away from the game, there is still a requirement to maintain a healthy investment into stats and gear for spotting searching and disabling traps. It just rewards the exceptional and tweaked investment into those stats.
Mix and matching gear and keeping stats at the levels required I don't is as simple as stacking enough points in a skill, there are a lot of skills that require points to be of any use. Most classes (rogue with intel being an exception) don't have enough skill points to spread around to be to keep all these stats maximized. Ranger/Rogue splashes can come close, but even still would not be a easy task.

The problem is, as I stated above, you're OVERLY rewarding a "healthy investment" in those skills. The devs would have to either bump the DCs of the traps up to the point that you simply CAN'T auto-disarm them without absolutely maximizing every single skill (skill focus, skill boost, bard song, GH, level-3/4 enhancement, etc), or traps will become a non-issue. As someone else said, many traps can be navigated WITHOUT the need to disarm them, once you know where they are. So someone auto-detecting/revealing the trap to the party will negate a good half of the traps anyway. Not to mention that at that point, you wouldn't even NEED spot. If your search were high enough to auto-find the trap box, and your disarm high enough to auto-disable, your spot could be zero.

And as I said, I DO think it would take something away from the game. What I WOULD agree with would be something like this, perhaps: if someone has spot + X over the minimum detection level, THEY can see the layout of the trap, but nobody else. That would fit better, imo. Just because someone has a massive spot skill doesn't mean they are also going to be able to instantaneously relay to everyone exactly where every piece of the trap is.

If it were changed to that, I could get behind it, because THAT would be kind of a cool addition. But letting one person display the trap to the entire party/raid due to a high spot skill, let alone auto-detecting the trap box AND auto-disarming the trap? No. That would kill a LOT of my enjoyment as a trapmonkey, personally.

Borror0
11-05-2009, 11:53 PM
Why should they sit and WAIT for the rogue to search out the trap, when they can just grab someone with massive stats and just have them sprinting one step ahead of the rest of the group, so everything is auto-disarmed?
Learn the traps' location by heart and just avoid them all by Jumping; there is no need to wait, currently.

If you're concerned about the optimal way to do thing, that is.

SkyCry
11-06-2009, 03:50 AM
I like the idea of an "Above the Head Icon" similar to /LFB or /LFH that shows up for X seconds after a character detects a trap or hidden door. This way the party can quickly be aware of the situation.Or /stop. I like that idea too. (Maybe even some kind of sound!)


Learn the traps' location by heart and just avoid them all by Jumping; there is no need to wait, currently.

If you're concerned about the optimal way to do thing, that is.

I don't like this approach. In fact, I hate it. No one should be required or in some way dependent on learning traps by heart.

Borror0
11-06-2009, 04:05 AM
I don't like this approach. In fact, I hate it. No one should be required or in some way dependent on learning traps by heart.
I think it should not be possible to know where traps are, but it's possible. The game's design allows that.

My point is that, if Lyria is worried about people not letting the rogue search for traps nor disable them, then he has not played for a long time nor as he played in circles of veterans because that is already the case if you've been around for a long time. You know where most traps are and, if you forgot one, drink a pot and move on.

JOTMON
11-06-2009, 07:29 AM
[QUOTE=Lyria;2538553]Not to mention that at that point, you wouldn't even NEED spot. If your search were high enough to auto-find the trap box, and your disarm high enough to auto-disable, your spot could be zero.
QUOTE]

I have seen many times already where this is the case, low investment into spot since they already know where most of the traps are.

I still like the auto disable feature but can see many flaws and area's for problems, more than the Devs would probably want to invest any time into developing.

I like the search bubble over the head idea, could use the icon from the cleric search for traps spell.
Shouldn't be much to implement that into the game.

Sintwar
11-06-2009, 03:37 PM
I think this is a great idea, and I think it would work well if implemented like this:

If you have a high enough spot skill, but not high enough search, you will simply detect that the trap and box are there. If you have a high enough spot AND high enough search to reveal, then it should automatically reveal. If you have a high enough search, but not a high enough spot, you should be able to find it the usual way, but of course won't be able to spot it.