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lppmor
11-03-2009, 05:22 AM
So I finally got access to 32 point builds, and it's time to reroll my Elf Ranger. However, now I'm in doubt if Elf is really the way to go.

I like Humans for role playing reasons and khopesh, but they have no weapon bonuses (which is bad for TWF since those bonuses apply to both hands) and very poor will saves (no additional protection against Hold Person and such spells). Also, they lack good enhancements at start, making it hard to increase your enhancement progress.

On the other hand, Dwarf seems really nice. Lots of bonuses, including AC vs giants that can save your life, ability to get more dex from armor, more sp if you want it, and saves vs spells which I believe work against those damn will spells (Hold Person, Fear, Blindness, etc). Making a few calculations, I noticed two dwarven axes with bonuses can even reach khopesh dps, not to talk about critical immune creatures..

So, any experience with Dwarf Ranger out there? My main concern is if Dwarf bonus saves work against will spells (which are usualy my doom)? And how about Humans?

Carlll
11-03-2009, 08:03 AM
With good gear, at high levels, unarmored gives the same armor bonus as Light Armor, and without capping your Dex. The Dwarven Armor Enhancements become pointless then.
Best AC you reach with a Monk splash, wont wear armor then anyways.

Khopesh does more damage than DAxes, even on a Dwarf. Quite a bit at first; But later, you can get Greensteel DAxes and those have very high base damage, so those are comparable to a Pesh and a good choice for a Dwarf. But without the inflated base damage of the Greensteel DAxes, the Khopesh rules supreme.

As such the lack Human specialization is no issue at all because Khopesh is simply the best. Sometimes a racial weapon can be somewhat comparable to a Pesh and a decent substitute.
Also note that Human can reach 1 higher Strength than all the other races, so this can help for damage too.

Crit immune stuff usually requires Blunt weapons.
The DAxe might be better against stuff with 75% fort, not sure.

Yes, Dwarves bring some nice stuff. Personally i dont think it compares to the Human, but +4 ac vs Giants certainly aint bad.
Both are ok choices.
But the saves against spells: Will save doesnt do much at higher levels - Reflex is very important but Rangers have a strong Reflex save.
The higher AC in Light Armor: Dont need it at low levels, dont need it once you get the super loot to reach same AC unarmored, freeing up your Dex bonus. Plus for high AC you'd probably want to splash Monk, which means unarmored again.

Just play what you like. Human is the best choice, and Dwarf is ok too.

Ardkor
11-03-2009, 11:05 AM
Hmmm I'm not great at math, but it seems a Khopesh will only do a bit more damage than a Dwarven Axe due to crits (19-20/x3 vs 20/x3), but the average damage on the axe would be higher on all non critical hits, even without the dwarven racial enhancements to axe damage. Over time, the Daxe should deliver more damage than the Khopesh.

Can you show me some numbers on this? (I'm not "calling BS", I honestly thought DAxe was higher sustained DPS than Khopesh, and would like to know if my math is way off.)

Here is my math:

Khopesh is d8, 19-20/x3 crit.
Dwarven Axe is d10, 20/x3 crit.

Calculating for maximum damage - In 20 hits, statistically speaking, they do:

Khopesh 18 hits for 8 each (144) plus 2 crits at 24 each (48) = 144+48 = 192 points maximum.
Dwarven axe 19 hits for 10 each (190) plus 1 crit for 30 (30) = 190+30 = 220 maximum

In all respects, the DAxe does more damage than the Khopesh, unless you ONLY count crits. Against creatures immune to crits, the DAxe also wins (190 vs 144). To top it off, the Khopesh weighs 50% more than the DAxe, but only has 65 Durability (vs 85 for the DAxe).

If there are feats that make the Khopesh awesome, these numbers will end up different, but as it stands, the DAxe is superior to the Khopesh in all respects. Add in Dwarven racial enhancements and the Daxe is even more deadly. I suppose if you had a weapon that procced some sort of awesome secondary effect ON A CRIT ONLY, you could say that versus creatures that are not immune to crits the Khopesh has twice the chance to proc that effect than a comparable axe. But as far as raw damage goes...Dwarven Axe is the way to go.

Incidentally, my ranger is Dwarven, uses DAxes and loves them. I splashed rogue for the first level (I want trap skills), but I am not sure what I will take for my other non-ranger level if I go 18/1/x. I will almost certainly not take Monk, as it doesn't fit the character concept. He is a vermin slayer, so being as tough as possible (including resistant to poison/disease/magic) while solo is the core goal. As he stands now, even at low level, he's tough as nails and hits like a freight train. He shrugs off spells, poison and anything less than a red name boss. God help the monster that fails to notice me slipping up on him in stealth mode...

Carlll
11-03-2009, 11:44 AM
The more additional damage you get, the more important the crit profile becomes. Strength bonus, Favored Enemy bonus, weapon modifier, Bloodstone and for raids you should also count Bard songs.

In your calculation you only consider base damage. For high level, well equipped Rangers you should at least add Strength (+12 or so), FE bonus (+14?), +5 weapon bonus and +6 Seeker from Bloodstone. Then with a Bard +8 or so from his song, +1 from a Cleric's prayer...

Ardkor
11-03-2009, 12:18 PM
The more additional damage you get, the more important the crit profile becomes. Strength bonus, Favored Enemy bonus, weapon modifier, Bloodstone and for raids you should also count Bard songs.

In your calculation you only consider base damage. For high level, well equipped Rangers you should at least add Strength (+12 or so), FE bonus (+14?), +5 weapon bonus and +6 Seeker from Bloodstone. Then with a Bard +8 or so from his song, +1 from a Cleric's prayer...

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me. Are you saying that at very high levels, the extra 5% chance for a crit outweighs the huge difference in base damage? Everything you listed as adding to damage adds equally to both the Khopesh and the Dwarven Axe, yes? So that doesn't change the basic advantage the Axe has over the Khopesh, as far as I can tell. The ratio of damage is still the same overall.

EDIT: Ah..you are saying that at the high end of the game, you will have more than 28 points worth of added damage (from various sources), so that one extra crit will make up for the 28 point difference in base damage between the two weapons. OK, I can see that - except that at high levels you also have more monsters that are immune to crits, and you are still doing much more damage on average with the axe (discounting crits). In a well balanced party I can see a lot of stacked 'on crit' effects, though, so you may be right. For me (playing solo 90% of the time) I can't rely on others for damage add effects, so the consistent extra damage from the DAxe is more valuable to me.

Quintun
11-03-2009, 01:01 PM
The more additional damage you get, the more important the crit profile becomes. Strength bonus, Favored Enemy bonus, weapon modifier, Bloodstone and for raids you should also count Bard songs.

In your calculation you only consider base damage. For high level, well equipped Rangers you should at least add Strength (+12 or so), FE bonus (+14?), +5 weapon bonus and +6 Seeker from Bloodstone. Then with a Bard +8 or so from his song, +1 from a Cleric's prayer...

A dwarf using all the enhancements comes close enough to Khopesh to make taking Khopesh on a dwarf a waste of time.

Emili
11-03-2009, 01:08 PM
Here is my math:

Khopesh is d8, 19-20/x3 crit.
Dwarven Axe is d10, 20/x3 crit.

Calculating for maximum damage - In 20 hits, statistically speaking, they do:

Khopesh 18 hits for 8 each (144) plus 2 crits at 24 each (48) = 144+48 = 192 points maximum.
Dwarven axe 19 hits for 10 each (190) plus 1 crit for 30 (30) = 190+30 = 220 maximum


The Khopesh actually wins in critical hit damages... What you forgetting here is the STR/DAMAGES pivot point outside the weapon... a STR ranger starts peaking at 28 str +9 then add in rams might, Power Attack, Rages, guess what starts to happen? The Khopesh crits outpower the axe.

Quite simple EACH critical damage grows larger... The higher the STR and the more Damage feats the more Critical damage is affected. This is also true of critical processing damages... holy burst, blast, etc... and other things relying on a crit such and seeker, banish etc...

Generally Khopesh > Dwarf Axe in dps... until said mob has 50% fort or better. There are tons of threads out here on DPS builds and among the 30 or so listed on gfunks compiled list ... http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906&highlight=dps+spreadsheet ... which changed some since these numbers compiled but the order still holds pretty true.

Halfling Khopesh > WF Khopesh : Halfling guile subs for low str
WF Khopesh > Human Khopesh : WF PA enhancements heavy hitter
Human Khopesh > Dwarf Khopesh : human extra feat offset/one more str point (Human rangers cap standing 36 str right now before rams... etc... one more mod attainable then other races, but who is to say will not change.)


A dwarf using all the enhancements comes close enough to Khopesh to make taking Khopesh on a dwarf a waste of time. 12aps vs feat really depends... full favored enemy, full favored attack, full dex, full con, tempest III, toughness ... things add up and are trade offs everywhere.

I do tend to agree though ... if going dwarf take the axe, elf - rapiers or scimis, drow - rapiers and every other race khopesh.

Ardkor
11-03-2009, 01:56 PM
Hmmm...the comparison in this thread so far has been between a Human with Khopesh vs a Dwarf with Dwarven Axe, so I will stay with that.

Here's my thinking:

If there are no *racial* enhancements that a human can take to improve Khopesh damage, then a dwarf can take two enhancements to bump the DAxe base damage up by +2 and improve the DAxe even more. That makes the maximum possible damage increase (20 hit test: 19 hits @ 12 each, plus one crit at 36 = 264 maximum), it also increases the minimum damage (DAxe = 62 minimum in 20 hits vs Khopesh = 24 minimum in 20 hits). Increasing the minimum means you increase the AVERAGE damage as well, not just the maximum - another strong advantage to the DAxe.

In 20 hits, you are now looking at a difference (in maximum base damage, counting the dwarven racial enhancement) of 72 points of damage (264 max DAxe - 192 max for Khopesh). You need to do *72 points* more damage on that 1 extra crit you get with the Khopesh, to *break even* with a DAxe in the hands of a dwarf with the racial enhancements.

And you need to do that consistently, to consider the Khopesh superior to the Dwarven Axe.

Now all my math is useless if there is a human racial enhancement that you can take to buff Khopesh damage by 2 points. Class features etc don't count because a dwarf could take those as well, so they cancel out.

(Note: I have not even considered the extra 2 points of accuracy you can get as a dwarf, using a DAxe, either. More hits = more chance to crit, or confirm a crit.)

Carlll
11-03-2009, 02:17 PM
The math about Khopesh vs DAxe:

Damage boni, for both:
+5 Weapon
+12 Strength
+14 Favored Enemy
---
+31

On crit:
+6 Bloodstone

Pesh does 4.5 base dmg on average, DAxe 7.5 with the Dorf enhancement.

We assume the Improved Critical feat, so DAxe crits at 19+, Khopesh at 17+.

Khopesh 16 hits for 31+4.5=35.5, in total 568, and crits 4 times for (35.5+6)*3=124.5, in total 498.
568+498=1066

DAxe 18 hits for 31+7.5=38.5, in total 693, and crits twice for (38.5+6)*3=133.5, in total 267.
693+267=960.

[Edit: Actually, both weapons miss on a 1 so they should have one less hit and a miss instead; but im too lazy too adjust the numbers; it doesnt change much]
[Edit2: I forgot Power Attack which is another +5 damage bonus that favors the Khopesh]

Now, these values of course change. Bard songs favor the Khopesh (and that's a big deal), Greensteel will benefit the DAxe since GS DAs have much higher base damage, as will Fortification and fighting against non-favored enemies favors (however, stuff with 100% Fortification usually requires Blunt to break DR, so both Pesh and DAxe suck for those), not having a +5 weapon favors the DAxe, having a Burst effect on the weapon favors the Khopesh and so on.
Also, i have a included a Bloodstone which not all Rangers have.

But notice that under these conditions, the Pesh turns out to do about 10% more DPS than a DAxe, for a Dwarf, with full Axe enhancements.

Raid bosses typically have 50% Fortification but you have Bard songs on you. The Khopesh should still come out on top, however if looking at Greensteel, the DAxe comes very close and is certainly a viable alternative for a Dwarf.

Khopesh costs a feat, DAxe costs 12 AP for a Dwarf for full damage. A feat's a feat, sure, but 12 AP are a lot too. Both cost.

DAxes are ok for Dwarves; But as it should become clear from the numbers, the lack of a specialty weapon for Humans is no problem at all - as the Pesh rules supreme for the most part anyways.

lppmor
11-03-2009, 02:44 PM
The Khopesh would win when your dmg bonus is high enough. Something like this: Khopesh 1d8+25 has higher average dps than DAxe 1d10+27, but DAxe 1d10+7 beats Khopesh 1d8+5.

But, this is not the point of this thread. A Human wielding Khopeshes would be a more powerful damage dealer, but what about other aspects of Dwarves and Elves?

For example, if I choose to go Human, what can I do to improve my saves vs will spells (I just hate hold person and curses)? Which low lvl enhancements can I get as Human to increase progress and be able to get higher enhancements, only improved recovery?

Emili
11-03-2009, 02:55 PM
Hmmm...the comparison in this thread so far has been between a Human with Khopesh vs a Dwarf with Dwarven Axe, so I will stay with that.

Here's my thinking:

If there are no *racial* enhancements that a human can take to improve Khopesh damage, then a dwarf can take two enhancements to bump the DAxe base damage up by +2 and improve the DAxe even more. That makes the maximum possible damage increase (20 hit test: 19 hits @ 12 each, plus one crit at 36 = 264 maximum), it also increases the minimum damage (DAxe = 62 minimum in 20 hits vs Khopesh = 24 minimum in 20 hits). Increasing the minimum means you increase the AVERAGE damage as well, not just the maximum - another strong advantage to the DAxe.

In 20 hits, you are now looking at a difference (in maximum base damage, counting the dwarven racial enhancement) of 72 points of damage (264 max DAxe - 192 max for Khopesh). You need to do *72 points* more damage on that 1 extra crit you get with the Khopesh, to *break even* with a DAxe in the hands of a dwarf with the racial enhancements.

And you need to do that consistently, to consider the Khopesh superior to the Dwarven Axe.

Now all my math is useless if there is a human racial enhancement that you can take to buff Khopesh damage by 2 points. Class features etc don't count because a dwarf could take those as well, so they cancel out.

(Note: I have not even considered the extra 2 points of accuracy you can get as a dwarf, using a DAxe, either. More hits = more chance to crit, or confirm a crit.)

What you're missing is at end game - characters on average standing 32-34 str (dwarf) or 32-36 str (Human) with a bloodtstone + possibly tharns + Power Attack + Rams Might + Raged and bard-songed and improved crit feat slashing... holding GreenSteel weapons... I mentioned the Pivot-point - fact is the weapons dice base damage is the smaller chunk of the damage as the character grows....

Carlll
11-03-2009, 03:03 PM
And some other numbers, beating up raid bosses, end game stuff.
Our Ranger:
Dwarf, 32 Strength unbuffed; Bard in the party.

Boss has 50% Fortification. He also has Acid resistance so no Bursts.

What will do more damage, a Greensteel Khopesh or the Greensteel DAxe? Lets find out:

Damage boni, for both:
+5 Weapon
+5 Power Attack
+14 Strength
+14 Favored Enemy
+8 Bard
+1 Prayer
+2 Ram's Might
---
49

On crit:
+6 Bloodstone

Pesh does 5.5 base dmg on average, DAxe a brutal 12.5 with the Dorf enhancement (3d6 base damage).

Due to 50% Fort, half the crits go away.

Khopesh:
1 miss on the 1
17 hits for 49+5.5=54.5, in total 926.5
crits twice for (54.5+6)*3=181.5, in total 363.
926.5+363=1289.5

DAxe
1 miss on the 1
18 hits for 49+12.5=61.5, in total 1107,
crits once for (61.5+6)*3=202.5
1107+202.5=1309.5

The Dwarven Axe does about 1% more damage. Surprising.
I must have made a mistake in my calculation ;-).

Carlll
11-03-2009, 03:08 PM
For example, if I choose to go Human, what can I do to improve my saves vs will spells (I just hate hold person and curses)? Which low lvl enhancements can I get as Human to increase progress and be able to get higher enhancements, only improved recovery?
Raise your Wisdom. Splash 1 level of Monk for a boost to saves and to convert your Wisdom into AC.
Hold Shift while you're Held. This applies your Blocking DR and should let you avoid most of the incoming melee damage. With dungeon scaling, Kobolds do very little damage on Normal and Hard. On Elite though, yes, it'll hurt when you're held.
Roll a Warforged and be immune to Hold Person.

Rangers have poor Will saves. I wouldnt advice to build your character just with Will save in mind, they become irrelevant quickly. It's just no big deal, and part of the game at the low levels. And EVERY character will get held from time to time (except a WF). Some less than others.
But Wisdom helps. Being Dwarf helps, yes. Being a Warforged helps even more. Splashing a level of Monk helps, and helps with AC too.

Cursed? Drink a pot.

Human enhancements, +1 to two stats of your choice; Improved Healing.
Dwarf? Axe Damage.

Ardkor
11-03-2009, 03:36 PM
Human enhancements, +1 to two stats of your choice; Improved Healing.
Dwarf? Axe Damage.

Dwarf: Spell Resistance +3 to saves vs spells and magical effects, Poison Resistance +3 to saves vs poison. Higher base CON at start for more HP (to soak up some of that damage when you fail a save), Racial Toughness IV for more HP. Dwarven CON increase (+2 max) for more HP. Also +2 accuracy with your DAxe. THOSE ARE ENHANCEMENTS - the dwarf comes with bonuses to its saves vs magic and poison right out of the box.

Regarding damage (I apologize for hijacking your thread, btw, and will shut up after this post, LOL) if you are grouped with bard/cleric types, and are facing enemies that are not immune to crits, the Khopesh is clearly superior to the Dxaxe, assuming you take Improved Crit - doubling the threat range on the Khopesh moves it well out in front of the DAxe for burst damage on crits. Against opponents who are immune to crits, or when you are solo, the DAxe still shines, however. If you don't take improved crit (for whatever reason) the DAxe is even better. I concede that the Khopesh is an excellent choice for a weapon, but I remain convinced the DAxe is a better choice overall (for me).

Emili
11-03-2009, 04:34 PM
Human enhancements, +1 to two stats of your choice; Improved Healing.
Dwarf? Axe Damage.
Human:
extra feat - usually used on Khopesh
Extra skill points - can amount to free umd if built right

Dwarf:
+2 con,
Toughness IV(of course requireing on taking the +2 con)
- They come with spell and poison saves to start... never met anyone who enhanced them personally,

Humans outside adaptability spend more ap on class enhancements as a result... those who chase recovery usually go full out and with items get that 237% healing or whatever it is...

Generally speaking ... Freedom of movement is usually on and when it's not I cannot recall last time I was ever held even in elite? Though I expect much more from epic? Air eles and comet fall are more a problem... and even the dwarves fall down then. Generally speaking any race is viable at end-game you just have to know what you're doing.

Carlll
11-03-2009, 05:01 PM
Dwarf: Spell Resistance +3 to saves vs spells and magical effects
Mostly useless. Fort and Reflex will be high enough and Will is pointless at higher levels.


Poison Resistance +3 to saves vs poison.
Potion makes immune. Better than saves.


Racial Toughness IV for more HP.
Colossal waste of AP. Toughness 3 is too expensive already.