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Chad28
11-02-2009, 08:07 PM
I've been playing this game for a bit, and have been having fun with my pure Barbarian. But I'm indecisive about what I want for my rogue. It seems that I can't get weapon finesse on a pure rogue, and I feel that's important for a character that has higher dexterity than strength. I like the ranger's favored enemy feat, and they can learn WF. But my problem is that I don't know what feats they naturally gain at levels, so I don't know what the level ratio should be.

I could do it 10/10 to be even, but are there any really good feats that one or the other learns past level 10 that I don't want to miss out on?

By the way, I have him as a halfling. At first I went with an Elf, but I changed my mind. His stats are 8/18/8/14/14/14. I may need to change that and raise his stats, because I made him before I remembered WF requires an attack bonus of +1. Which means I think I need to have 12 strength, or get an item that raises strength.

Multiclassing is complicated, but I don't think I can get everything I want with a pure rogue. I want him to be a stealthy scout and trap disarmer/secret door opener/lock picker. I'm not really concerned with DPS, because I already have a barbarian for that.

Quintun
11-02-2009, 08:10 PM
I've been playing this game for a bit, and have been having fun with my pure Barbarian. But I'm indecisive about what I want for my rogue. It seems that I can't get weapon finesse on a pure rogue, and I feel that's important for a character that has higher dexterity than strength. I like the ranger's favored enemy feat, and they can learn WF. But my problem is that I don't know what feats they naturally gain at levels, so I don't know what the level ratio should be.

I could do it 10/10 to be even, but are there any really good feats that one or the other learns past level 10 that I don't want to miss out on?

By the way, I have him as a halfling. At first I went with an Elf, but I changed my mind. His stats are 8/18/8/14/14/14. I may need to change that and raise his stats, because I made him before I remembered WF requires an attack bonus of +1. Which means I think I need to have 12 strength, or get an item that raises strength.

Multiclassing is complicated, but I don't think I can get everything I want with a pure rogue. I want him to be a stealthy scout and trap disarmer/secret door opener/lock picker. I'm not really concerned with DPS, because I already have a barbarian for that.


WF requires BAB +1 on a rogue thats level 2. It does not require strength as it is a dex based feat. Rogue will get you all you want. The wants you listed are exactly what a rogue is for. Of course the stealthy scout part has nearly no use in DDO sadly.

Chad28
11-02-2009, 08:37 PM
WF requires BAB +1 on a rogue thats level 2. It does not require strength as it is a dex based feat. Rogue will get you all you want. The wants you listed are exactly what a rogue is for. Of course the stealthy scout part has nearly no use in DDO sadly.

Oh, so I can get it with a Rogue. I was mistaken.

Yeah, I notice a lot of people like to just rush through missions, and traps don't really become an issue until hard or elite, unless it's something like the Redfang quest in Marketplace that's full of traps. But I still like the idea of it, and it's different from my barbarian. So I'll just try to go pure with rogue.

Quintun
11-03-2009, 12:04 PM
Oh, so I can get it with a Rogue. I was mistaken.

Yeah, I notice a lot of people like to just rush through missions, and traps don't really become an issue until hard or elite, unless it's something like the Redfang quest in Marketplace that's full of traps. But I still like the idea of it, and it's different from my barbarian. So I'll just try to go pure with rogue.

Finding and disabling traps is useful, I mean the stealthy scouting ahead is not as good in DDO as it could be. Rogue skills are good to have.

Ardkor
11-03-2009, 12:14 PM
You can always take a couple of levels of Rogue and the rest as a Ranger. With 14 INT you get enough SP each level to bump Move Silent, Hide, Search, Spot (as ranger skills) plus Disable Device and Open Lock (cross class rogue skill). You'd still be the stealthy scout/trap monkey you want to be, but you'd also be respectable for melee/range attacks, and rangers are very durable.

Chad28
11-03-2009, 08:38 PM
So what do you get at level 20 for a rogue? cheat death? What does it do, and is it really worth giving up?

Narwe
11-04-2009, 07:04 AM
A very useful blend of rogue and ranger is 13 rogue / 6 ranger / 1x (fighter, barbarian or monk). This allows for improved evasion and acrobat II along with manyshot, bow strength, improved twf, tempest, ram's might and jump spells. The barb 1 option gives faster run speed (though acrobat does too and I dont know if they stack). Fighter gives an extra feat as does monk (as well as defense bonus from dex and wisdom). You might want to consider dropping dex and increasing strength as this frees up a feat (you don't take weapon finesse with a strength build) and increases damage.

Ardkor
11-04-2009, 07:04 AM
From everything I have heard, the capstone at 20 for rogue....er..."inhales"...yeah, thats a polite way to put it.

Not worth going to 20 for, is what I've been told.

Chad28
11-06-2009, 10:59 PM
I have a question about favored enemies. what are some good favored enemies that people use? Undead is good because they're found throughout the game. Kobolds are good while doing Stormreach quests because they're all over the sewers. Vermin could be good, due to the spiders and scorpions and such. Animals can also be hard hitting sometimes.

cdr
11-06-2009, 11:33 PM
You really want to do undead and then maybe giants - you want your favored enemies to be useful throughout the game, and especially endgame.

Chad28
11-07-2009, 07:59 AM
Yeah, Hill Giants are massive. and Ogres fit in the giant category too. Fighting HG make me wonder if jumping up to hit an enemy higher on the body makes any real difference. Like hitting them in the face instead of the chest. Or does that make no difference?

Ardkor
11-07-2009, 08:33 AM
Jumping up when you hit won't affect the way damage is applied at all, it's not that kind of system (i.e., it doesn't use hit locations). In fact, moving while attacking will make it harder for you to hit (-4 to hit) unless you have the Spring Attack feat (melee) or Shot On The Run feat (ranged).

Choosing your favored enemy usually involves one of the following methods:

1. Choose enemies that are immune to critical hits (undead, constructs, etc) so your damage output vs these is higher.
2. Choose enemies that are very common in mid to late game (evil outsiders, giants, etc) so that you get the most 'bang for your buck' through the life of your character.
3. Choose enemies based on roleplay choices or personal reasons (my ranger/rogue is a 'vermin slayer' as an RP choice, and it honks me off that spiders can detect me with tremorsense from 120' away, so I can never sneak up on them...so they were my 1st FE choice, LOL).

honkuimushi
11-07-2009, 09:00 AM
Pure Rogue will work and there are several Ranger/Rogue builds that work as well. Weapon Finesse requires a BAB of 1, which most Rogue builds won't get until level 2. But you don't get a new feat until level 3, so unless you take a class with a bonus feat at level 1 for your second level, like Fighter or Monk, you will have to wait until level 3 to get Weapon Finesse.

The bigger problems are your stats, 8 Str and Con are big mistakes. What you are probably going to notice first is your Str. Halflings already have a penalty to carrying capacity and having an 8 Str will mean that one or 2 pieces of heavy armor taken as loot will overburden you. And when you're overburdened, you slow down, lose your dex bonus to AC and lose Evasion.

But 8 Con is probably the bigger mistake. Rogues only have a d6 for hp and no Toughness enhancements. The rule of thumb is to buy con to the limit of the 1 to 1 point buy, on a halfling, that's 14. You can probably make it to level 10, but after that, the decreased protection of AC will mean that you will die quite frequently. Drop your Wisdom and Charisma to 8 and increase Str to 12 and Con to 14.(your stats are a 30 point build)

If you had 32 point builds, you could put the extra points into Wis and Chr, but Charisma is mostly used for UMD and Wisdom for saves and a Spot modifier. As a skill modifier, the 3 point difference will not be a big issue at later levels. The Will save will be more of an issue, but that's hard to avoid on a rogue. If you plan on taking 6+ levels of Ranger, you might want to take one point from dex and put 2 points into wisdom to make it easier to cast spells.

Finally, a note about the role of Rogues. Don't discount DPS. Getting traps is good. If a Rogue is being specifically recruited, the party usually wants some locks or traps done. But there are a lot of quests when the locks and traps are negligeable. And there are parties that already have a trapper, or just plan to blow through the traps. In that case, you are competing for spots against other melee. Rogues get 1d6 Sneak Attack every other level. That means that by mid levels they can do a lot of damage. Multiclassing can make them a better all around combatant at the expense of some of that Sneak Attack.

But that also means that you have to buld a rogue that plans to increase DPS and survivability. That means that most rogues should probably put Str and Con to the max a 1 to 1 point buy can get. Finesse may still be a good strategy, especially on elves, drow and halflings which get extra dex and dex enhancements. And even if you ignore AC, the increased reflex saves, ease of qualifying for TWF feats, and higher to hit possible are all reasons why Finesse builds make sense. But that doesn't mean that you can't be a good combatant. Get Str items, use your feats for combat, keep your hp up. If you do that, you'll be welcome in parties for any quest, not just a few quests where people want a Rogue to do the traps. After all, your Barbarian can't give xp and favor to your Rogue.

Chad28
11-07-2009, 04:17 PM
I have noticed through play that I become overburdened easily. so I may need to reroll for a stronger rogue. I'll drop charisma to spread those points out between strength and constitution.