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View Full Version : some more .... Low Level (f2p) Raids



dwelsh99
11-02-2009, 07:45 AM
I would like to see more low level raids, perhaps a couple more around the harbor and marketplace.

One quest that comes to mind is Kobald's Assult. This could easily get re-done into a 12 man 4-6 level raid. Make the area larger, keep it mostly outside, for exploring through the raid squence. Naturally more then just defending the ruins. Add some caves, for looting some kobald dens.

Just an idea, more raiding at lower levels would add some fun for those of us that have re-rolled several times.

Update: Another place (not sure if f2p) is one of those dead-ends in steam tunnels...add a hogoblin raid.

Mav145
11-02-2009, 07:45 AM
Good idea, I like it.

Chaosprism
11-02-2009, 07:54 AM
A level 5-6 ish raid in searing heights (currently with no quests) would be a good one, and yes theres no reason why raids have to occur at high levels. Thats simply following a pattern set by other mmo's for no reason.


Some people think level 5-6 people are too inexperienced to understand the game to raid, actually BEING in a raid is a huge learning experience itself. (and yes alts abound anyway)

Uska
11-02-2009, 07:55 AM
I could go for a low level raid or two

dwelsh99
11-02-2009, 08:09 AM
A level 5-6 ish raid in searing heights

I like this idea also, for sure this would be a little tougher area as a raid. Lots of casters for opponents. :)

sirgog
11-02-2009, 08:16 AM
A level 5-6 ish raid in searing heights (currently with no quests) would be a good one, and yes theres no reason why raids have to occur at high levels. Thats simply following a pattern set by other mmo's for no reason.


Some people think level 5-6 people are too inexperienced to understand the game to raid, actually BEING in a raid is a huge learning experience itself. (and yes alts abound anyway)

There is a reason for raids with lockout timers being all high level as you outlevel them before you can repeat them much.

Lowbie raids without lockout timers? Hell, there's a reason that Tempest's Spine won the 'most popular raid' poll back prior to the Shroud's release. TS is now more popular than any other mid to high level F2P quest; there seems to be a group in there at almost any time the servers are up.

Chaosprism
11-02-2009, 09:28 AM
You can still put lockout timers on raids regardless of level.

All raids should probably have lockout timers, even tempest spine.

Cyr
11-02-2009, 05:46 PM
A level 5-6 ish raid in searing heights (currently with no quests) would be a good one, and yes theres no reason why raids have to occur at high levels. Thats simply following a pattern set by other mmo's for no reason.


Some people think level 5-6 people are too inexperienced to understand the game to raid, actually BEING in a raid is a huge learning experience itself. (and yes alts abound anyway)

Ughh no. Linking raids to explorer zones with 6 person limits is not a great thing (see restless isles for reason why).

Tharlak
11-02-2009, 05:50 PM
/signed

Would like to see 1 or 2 low level raids.

Agree that the mechanics around the raid and (6 man) explorer zone need some thought or other solution.

Falco_Easts
11-02-2009, 05:57 PM
/Signed. I like the idea.

hydra_ex
11-02-2009, 06:12 PM
Raids for F2P with raid loot. Good idea, signed!


Low level raids, no.

What good is a low level raid? Raids in and of themselves are not "super-fun". A raid in DDO should fit the following paradigm:

The raid is fun and difficult, and completable with strategy and preparation.
The raid drops loot which make it worth running.
The raid represents the culmination of a storyline.
The raid retains a seat of status, and is a focus of congregation for a long time.


A low level raid's loot would be quickly outpaced, and, balancing it to make it difficult, especially with regards to twinking, would make it a nightmare to design. The amount of development time required to make a low level raid would be better spent, instead, releasing more quests, as a raid, if designed correctly, takes up time to create a unique adventure.

That said, what would be the point? The loot would be horrendously terrible, and by the time the raid loot you want is dropped, you will be at a higher level that the raid, and the loot becomes worse than what you could simply buy. Conversely, if the loot was made worth it, then high levels, eager to get a share of it, would run through it with little strategy, since, being twice the level of the quest, would have not reason to find any difficulty.

In terms of XP, why? The raid would be too long to run, giving it a low xp per difficulty-time ratio. In addition, getting a group would take forever, as there is a narrow range of players at any lowbie-midbie level range at any given time. One of the main reasons why higher level raids survive, is that everyone has a character at cap, who want to run the raids. Given a few months, when the influx of new players slows down, filling a raid group will be hard. Conversely, one runs the risk of making the raid too short and easy, which would not feel like an accomplishment at all, and be no better than a regular quest, despite wasted developer time.

So, a lowbie raid, with loot either useless, or unbalanced, would require much developer time to make. Time spent crafting an adventure worthy of being called a raid. Time better spent releasing more quests. In short, its simply a bad idea.

Ranmaru2
11-03-2009, 01:34 AM
So, a lowbie raid, with loot either useless, or unbalanced, would require much developer time to make. Time spent crafting an adventure worthy of being called a raid. Time better spent releasing more quests. In short, its simply a bad idea.

And the Inspired Quarter is an example of them spending their better time releasing more quests? I don't think so. How do you manage to **** up going into someone's mind, ESPECIALLY A ROGUE'S, that badly? I don't care if he is good aligned, it should still be the most twisted and puzzle riddled dungeon in the whole game, but instead its a giant snooze fest with a one-time funny joke of Freud being in it.

A low level raid might actually allow one to immerse their character more into the world and feel like they're interacting with the story line. I think changing Kobold Assault or Gladewatch to a low level raid might actually bring a different kind of feel to leveling up a character. They could even make it like Tempest Spine with random loot drops throughout so that you can get stuff throughout (real life emergencies come up and it sucks having to leave a preraid). Currently, while one is countering the siege in the Harbor, the rest of the quests in the game don't exactly feel like Stormreach is under attack that much. Some raids to return this feeling to maybe fill in some plot lines and such might actually be a good idea.

And as far as making it accessible to all levels, they could just use the mechanic in the Devil Assault quest to make it different levels based on the difficulty with different kinds of loot drops (or different, more upgraded, versions of the same loot) based on the difficulty you enter on.

A little more fun at low levels and less monotony is a good idea, not just focusing on high level content where they can't even manage to convince me that I'm in my own character's head or even in the head of a rogue. I'd rather more experiences throughout the game rather than the failure that is the Dreaming Dark for my higher level toons.

Irinis
11-03-2009, 02:23 AM
It'd be nice to have a shortish "training raid" or two at lower levels. The loot thing isn't a problem, sure you'd outgrow the loot quickly but that'll discourage higher level toons from raiding it. Kobold Assault redone as a raid might be really interesting.

dwelsh99
11-04-2009, 11:06 AM
For a lowbie Raid, Kobolds Assult would be the best one to re-do, IMO.

Concidering it is a low lvl raid, I would not expect to find 'make or break' loot, but raiding is still fun. I would enjoy it on my lowbies.

Baahb3
11-04-2009, 11:18 AM
If you want a raid based off of story, how about the Waterworks/STK story line. Have the lady you give the Seal to turn out to be working for the Dreaming Dark or the Emeral claw and you have to go in and stop the transaction from taking place.

The story elements would be there and would fit nicely in that 5-8 range of a lowbie raid before you get to TS at 10.

kafrielveddicus
11-04-2009, 11:21 AM
For a lowbie Raid, Kobolds Assult would be the best one to re-do, IMO.

Concidering it is a low lvl raid, I would not expect to find 'make or break' loot, but raiding is still fun. I would enjoy it on my lowbies.

Please dont change Kobold Assault into a raid, I love watching all the new players desperate to find groups for this quest, knowing very well that all the permadeathers in my guild have a good idea of how to solo this one on elite with level approriate toons!!!

In regards to the OP, in the very beginning Irestone Inlet was designed as a Raid then swtiched over to a 6 man quest.

I think the best quest that would make a good low level raid would be proof is in the poison, make a couple more areas attached to the existing quest, then after killing the existing end boss have yourself go into some sort of a waterworks(piping sytem) type of puzzle with all kinds of levers/runes (requiring Stats) and the group must split into 3 or 4 groups(unfortunately cant be soloed) to find the real source of the Poison(The real End Boss).

bobbryan2
11-04-2009, 11:22 AM
Low level raids are a lesson in futility.

Memnir
11-04-2009, 11:27 AM
Low level raid sounds to me like an excellent reason to reopen BlackLoch - and bring on the Pirate King!!!

Although, I have to admit - I still like the idea of Tempest's Spine being the "trainer" raid. It fits the bill on that quite well. However, if a lower level raid were to be implemented, I am quite serious about the above suggestion. :D
(Hell, I just want BlackLoch back... loved that zone.)

Larcomtech
11-04-2009, 11:30 AM
I think the idea of a low-level F2P raid would be ingenious for Turbine. It would give the F2P players an idea of what a raid is like, and maybe boost sales.

As far as levels, place it at 6-7ish. making it so that people have to get the copper sigil faster if they are in a rush to raid. Searing Heights would be a good location.

For loot, you do run into the issue that the items will not be effecting by the level you can run the raid, or they will be unballancing. Easy. Make them item sets, insuring multiple runs, or make them bound to account. They could also use a mechanic similar to the invasion tokens, havent really seen that at lower levels.

Shamurai
11-04-2009, 11:43 AM
I highly support for these reasons:

~ It would help people learn to work better with bigger teams
~ Give the F2P a taste for raiding and what's to come thereby increasing the liklihood that they will purchase additonal packs
~ They're fun!!! This is a game, after all and not just twinking gear and grinding XP.

I'm not worried so much about twinked vets mucking it up... any quest that should take 12 to beat surely can't be zerged by a "level appropriat" vet... well maybe some but oh well

- Not enough low levels to run it?? Check the LFM the first 10 LFG's are all korthos and harbor stuff usually over half the posted one.. and those are the lowbies that acutally use the LFM panel add them to the ones that don't.. plenty of low levellers for raiding.. And in a few months.. they will be leveling the first and second alts
- So what if the gear is quickly outleveled.. that will be the case until at least level 14 anyway..

/signed

sirgog
11-04-2009, 12:02 PM
Raids for F2P with raid loot. Good idea, signed!


Low level raids, no.

What good is a low level raid? Raids in and of themselves are not "super-fun". A raid in DDO should fit the following paradigm:

The raid is fun and difficult, and completable with strategy and preparation.
The raid drops loot which make it worth running.
The raid represents the culmination of a storyline.
The raid retains a seat of status, and is a focus of congregation for a long time.


A low level raid's loot would be quickly outpaced, and, balancing it to make it difficult, especially with regards to twinking, would make it a nightmare to design. The amount of development time required to make a low level raid would be better spent, instead, releasing more quests, as a raid, if designed correctly, takes up time to create a unique adventure.

That said, what would be the point? The loot would be horrendously terrible, and by the time the raid loot you want is dropped, you will be at a higher level that the raid, and the loot becomes worse than what you could simply buy. Conversely, if the loot was made worth it, then high levels, eager to get a share of it, would run through it with little strategy, since, being twice the level of the quest, would have not reason to find any difficulty.

In terms of XP, why? The raid would be too long to run, giving it a low xp per difficulty-time ratio. In addition, getting a group would take forever, as there is a narrow range of players at any lowbie-midbie level range at any given time. One of the main reasons why higher level raids survive, is that everyone has a character at cap, who want to run the raids. Given a few months, when the influx of new players slows down, filling a raid group will be hard. Conversely, one runs the risk of making the raid too short and easy, which would not feel like an accomplishment at all, and be no better than a regular quest, despite wasted developer time.

So, a lowbie raid, with loot either useless, or unbalanced, would require much developer time to make. Time spent crafting an adventure worthy of being called a raid. Time better spent releasing more quests. In short, its simply a bad idea.

Everything you say is a perfect argument for why there should be no quests (6 or 12 player) with lockout timers at low level.

Quests with lockout timers and raids are not the same thing. I strongly support having a lowbie raid that uses standard quest mechanics of no flagging, no timer, and rare unbound named loot, just like the most popular pre-Shroud raid in the game.

Angelus_dead
11-05-2009, 12:43 PM
Low level raids are a lesson in futility.
The best reason to add a low level raid:
Seeing it fail would shut up all the requests to add a low level raid.

Angelus_dead
11-05-2009, 12:48 PM
Quests with lockout timers and raids are not the same thing.
Quests with 12 players and raids are not the same thing, except by a meaningless arbitrary definition.

If Turbine declared tomorrow that 6 player instances were now also raids, then what? Would that satisfy the requests for low level raids?


I strongly support having a lowbie raid that uses standard quest mechanics of no flagging, no timer, and rare unbound named loot
What could possibly be good about that? (Aside from putting a stop to requests for lowbie raids)


just like the most popular pre-Shroud raid in the game.
Why do you mention something so highly irrelevant?