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KGWiking
10-31-2009, 03:46 PM
Have any guilds made rulings on this yet?

I am weighing it out - but can't see a valid reason why to allow people to accellerate to lvl 4 (in a PD setting).

I don't see it the same as 32 point builds as there are a lot of dead 32 point builds out there - but to start at level four in most PD guilds would allow you to run with lvl 4 to 7 groups ---- and that's a huge advantage.

Does anyone have a valid reason - within the PD framework - for allowing this other than to let people not have to do the introduction stuff?

KG

Lorien_the_First_One
10-31-2009, 03:51 PM
Because people are bored with the L1-3 stuff?

If you put in place a rule saying Vet chars can't run L1-3 stuff then all you are doing is copying the very common D&D PnP practice of allowing groups to skip low levels with premade chars to avoid the more boring stuff. L4s autopromoted actually have less equipment and resources than a L4 who levelled through Korthos so they won't exactly be overtwinked by going this route, they will face additional challenge.

whysper
10-31-2009, 03:56 PM
Adventurers who have previously gotten some stuff done over in Sarlona and decided to try Xen'drik or something? The only argument against it is that it still requires Favor or Real Money to obtain.

Lithic
10-31-2009, 04:40 PM
Adventurers who have previously gotten some stuff done over in Sarlona and decided to try Xen'drik or something? The only argument against it is that it still requires Favor or Real Money to obtain.

Since it only takes 1000favor (which I have personally done in less than 10 hours before), its not really a hardship. Its pretty hard to get a lvl 20 character WITHOUT 1000 favor. The only ones I see having a problem getting it would be the hardcore PDers who have no normal characters.

Keep in mind however that PDers are uniquely favored by the "TP for Favor" program as they reroll more than most, and are likely to gain quite a few points to spend for such things as unlocking vet status.

KGWiking
10-31-2009, 05:33 PM
To those who replied are you in a guild that has made a ruling on this...

Am just curious.

KG

kafrielveddicus
11-02-2009, 10:16 AM
Hi Kg,

Our guild will not be allowing Veteran status, I think Veteran status is more for long time players who are playing in a regular non pd manner. The other problem it will pose is those that dont have status will be left without others to group with, not to mention those who do take will eventually be going back to run the early content anyways for favor.

Stay Safe and Happy Hunting!!!

OzmarDDO
11-05-2009, 09:12 AM
Have any guilds made rulings on this yet?

I am weighing it out - but can't see a valid reason why to allow people to accellerate to lvl 4 (in a PD setting).

I don't see it the same as 32 point builds as there are a lot of dead 32 point builds out there - but to start at level four in most PD guilds would allow you to run with lvl 4 to 7 groups ---- and that's a huge advantage.

Does anyone have a valid reason - within the PD framework - for allowing this other than to let people not have to do the introduction stuff?

KG

Only reason I can think of to allow this within a PD framework is to keep the guild more open and attractive to players: might positively influence membership. I.e., veteran players who are very tired or frustrated with re-playing characters through 3 levels only to die at level 4 or 5 and then have to do it all over again, might decide to quit the guild. But if they can start at level 4 and die more quickly... then they might stick around.

Just a thought. As my highest level character only recently obtained the exalted 4th level, I am hardly in the "Veteran" category, and wouldn't be able to use this option anyway.

-Ozmar the Newbie

kafrielveddicus
11-05-2009, 11:20 AM
Only reason I can think of to allow this within a PD framework is to keep the guild more open and attractive to players: might positively influence membership. I.e., veteran players who are very tired or frustrated with re-playing characters through 3 levels only to die at level 4 or 5 and then have to do it all over again, might decide to quit the guild. But if they can start at level 4 and die more quickly... then they might stick around.

Just a thought. As my highest level character only recently obtained the exalted 4th level, I am hardly in the "Veteran" category, and wouldn't be able to use this option anyway.

-Ozmar the Newbie


Only problem with this is it gets away from the whole point of permadeath which is the challenge itself, what happens when they unlock a newer status that allows 8th level toons, and then 12th level toons.

Point being those that are dying at 5th and 6th level, need to play more low level content in order to improve their skills and tactics, and having to play this repititively eventually pushes that person to slow down and play with more thought!!! Low level quests are the single best place to hone your skills, because you can make a mistake and get away with it, note these mistakes and make changes in your playstyle and you will survive much longer in higher end content!!!


Permadeath is certainly a playstyle choice and if running low level content is not what you want to do, and you want to run hard and fast with tactics being a side thought, you should strongly research what permadeath guild you want to be part of, guilds out there that allow brokers and auction house should be at the top of the list for players that fit that shoe, those open rule concepts simply make it easier to play that way!!!

KGWiking
11-06-2009, 10:53 PM
[QUOTE=TheNarc;2536875]Only problem with this is it gets away from the whole point of permadeath which is the challenge itself, what happens when they unlock a newer status that allows 8th level toons, and then 12th level toons.


I agree and I think it is only a matter of time before Turbine goes in this direction that players will start at higher levels ---- and some of the low level content if run with certain mixes is challenging. A group of two sorcs and a rogue (lvl 3's) taking on even Sunken Sewer --- particularly if they get Tarnish and the named Trog is not a joke quest.

Tempo is also a huge factor. If the plan for every quest is DPS DPS and more DPS --- eventually --- and probably often you will run into a nut you can't crack. Unless you resort to using the AH - the Brokers - buying all magic etc to do so.

Not that playing the run and gun style is wrong - it just is a very different brand of play than I became accustomed to when I started playing PD about 2.5 years ago.

KGWiking
11-10-2009, 01:55 PM
Still am undecided about this - however I will note that "most" of the people who really want Veteran Status are those who also have opted to leave VPD due to our no Auction House, No Brokers, No Buying Magic ruling.

I'm becoming a bit more hard line in my thought process about this whole issue and I see a correlation between the two.

My reply for those who don't like to run Korthos over and over is that running quests (even those above level) to your character in a tactically sound manner will redue going back to Korthos.

For those who love to "power game" which is a valid approach - just a bit risky for PD play - they are more dependent upon accelerated gear to apply their playstyle. They also tend to die a lot more when they come to the nasty that is a bit nastier than they.

The other problem is that there are many ways to die even in low level quests if you are careless - or honestly get unlucky. While luck can be controlled by tempo - build type - and other factors - sometimes deaths will occur by numbers of reasons. The vast majority of the deaths my PD adventurers have experienced are due to mistakes that I made or the group made. I don't expect any to feel sorry for me when my adventurers die and reroll and yeah, have to go back to Korthos. They died - didn't they.

I just feel that starting at level four --- just doesn't feel right to me. The question is at what point do things I'm wishy washy about - and there are a few of them - buying 32 point builds is similar - although we've always allowed that in VPD for those who could unlock them - is an example - and those which are core values and part of the mission statement of the guild.

I just don't see how veteran status adds to the "challenge" of the game - which is a core principal I had when forming VPD.

If I wanted all the stuff that made the game easier I would have stayed where I was---

KG

Nethain
11-12-2009, 05:32 AM
[QUOTE=TheNarc;2536875]Only problem with this is it gets away from the whole point of permadeath which is the challenge itself, what happens when they unlock a newer status that allows 8th level toons, and then 12th level toons.

Point being those that are dying at 5th and 6th level, need to play more low level content in order to improve their skills and tactics, and having to play this repititively eventually pushes that person to slow down and play with more thought!!! Low level quests are the single best place to hone your skills, because you can make a mistake and get away with it, note these mistakes and make changes in your playstyle and you will survive much longer in higher end content!!!


I agree with you, that is the reason that I joined a PD guild, because of the specific ruleset and to make it more challenging for myself. Sure I die with my toons, sometimes at the beginning and other times at higher levels. And ofcourse I don't like to start again at Korthos but if you skip it you are missing out in experience and some nice starting equipment. And don't forget the chance to learn from previous misstakes. I have learnt to be more cautious not to rush into the action, and to make killzones from my choosing. I like PD and wouldn't want to play it otherwise.

KGWiking
11-12-2009, 09:00 AM
So, other than the two newer guilds which were formed over controversies of gear acquisition and allowance of veteran status are any other PD guilds allowing this?

Having looked at each guild's website I haven't found any that have endorsed PD adventurers starting at Level four other than the two previously cited.

KG

parvo
11-13-2009, 06:24 PM
In Mortal Voyage, there's been no discusion I know of. Back in the day, the harbor was a proving ground for PD characters and players. The groups were small and the point of PD was challenge, not accomplishment. It felt like something to get out into the market and beyond. So long as your groups are within proper level range, some of the changes in mod nine brought that "proving ground" feel back. This is where you learn teamwork, and some of the basic strategy and tactics. And when a character is rerolled, it's often because those lessons were forgotten. Time for a refresher. I'm all for discussion, but I doubt most in MV are of differnt mind.

Of course, the risk is that some players will die a lot and end up spending most of thier PD time in those first four levels. Some folks do, and are just fine with it, and some get burned out. My viewpoint on those that get burned out is they should find an easier PD guild or maybe just go back to "normal" play. Perhaps if they stay with the game, get better and want a more consistent challenge, they will come back. We'll leave the light on for ya.

Find a guild that's right for you. What most folks are looking for in PD, is a rule set and fellow guildies that give them a really tough challenge, yet with the right mix of variables allows them to accomplish individual goals. That choice is more complex than most folks realize at first. Folks have different levels of patience, skill, luck, teamwork, leadership...the list of attributes that determine a "perfect" rule set for an individual is practically endless, hence the growth of PD guilds with varying rule sets. My favorite new guildie is one that thinks "damn, MV is a tough as hell...but I'm going to get better and give it a good shot".


Stay hard
--parvo

KGWiking
11-14-2009, 11:18 AM
I also tell players - particularly the ones new to the game - the same thing. I look at Korthos and The Harbor as basic training for new players. I encourage them to take their time - learn group dynamics and that is a good place to get the basic gear you may need to go on to better things.

We have a huge F2P population - and a great many were brand new to the game. So, a lot were getting creamed at lvl 1 to 4 - which shows me that they are not really apt for levels beyond the Harbor. The good news is that some of these players are now hitting Level five through seven - without dying and within a very restricted ruleset.

For veterans who die - is based on the same principal. Due to a smaller pool of players we seem to be capped about level 10. Very few of our players have made it past there.

My focus has shifted from this level of play back to working with new players. I've asked some of the older hands to do the same. Some have been great with walking our future high night players through the early content.

By doing so I've been able to address their tactics - which is good because eventually some of these players will be grouped with me in quests that do not have a large margin of error. If there is a tempo that may not be appropriate for a given quest - and which may not yield good results as an overall theme - I address it. It seems that as a group more of our newer players are experiencing success. It is my hope that within a few weeks a large cadre of new players will be up for running more difficult content. They also will have grouped with our core veterans in the early stages - and understand they way we like to do things. What has happened by this shift of focus is to reinforce a tempo of playstyle as part of the organizational culture of our guild.

Candidly, the best cure for boredom with the low level play is not to die. If the only tempo that is run is DPS - sooner or later you'll lose. Most of my deaths - as I review them - were caused by bad tactical decisions and carelessness. Good strategies eliminate many variable - such as unlucky saves - by the group maintaining control of the situation. These usually involve some form of a patient approach where resources are used effectively - and not just charging into a fight.

Player development is traditionally a key part of the PD experience. Having a PD adventurer close to 1750 on another server was a huge factor when I left that server. I would like to equal it and surpass that achievement in a PD setting which offers a more restrictive environment. If I do that using Veteran status I would feel like I cheated. I also have little interest to achieve that with others who don't feel the same way that I feel about earning this capstone achievement.

When I make an adventurer my long term hope is for them to enjoy the Valhalla Pension Fund :) and not the Valhallan Life Insurance Policy! :)

But if they get to the second that's okay.

KG

Almerel
11-22-2009, 10:23 PM
As a Vet of the game but new to PD myself I would like the option of making a lvl 4 char. I get the proving grounds thing but I have proved lvls 1-3 more times than I care to remember.

Also being able to jump right in the quests with guild mates lvl 4+ would make the game more enjoyable.

Although I may start some chars on a different server for PD since I have 9/10 char slots taken on Khyber. If I decide on this route then I have no worries about Vet status.:p

Gandalfs_Ghost
11-23-2009, 03:47 PM
We are not allowing it in Sublime fyi. All toons must start at level 1.

KGWiking
11-23-2009, 04:00 PM
We have not adopted it either in Valhalla PD Guild. It just doesn't feel right to me.

KG

Almerel
11-23-2009, 04:17 PM
So far it seems that most if not all of the PD guilds out there do not like this idea.

I may start a Vet status PD guild if there is support out there for it. I have enjoyed the low lvl quests again because of PD. However, I doubt it will be fun to re run KI more than once or twice even with the risk of perma death.

parvo
11-24-2009, 01:23 AM
I had a seemingly unenjoyable hat trick today. Three low level character deaths. Can't say I looked forward to Korthos on any of them but the funny thing was, on the third character I ended up in a rare crawl through Misery's Peak. It was a duo on hard and for whatever reason it was beating us up. We had to slow way down. I haven't had to sneak in Misery's in a long time but my groupmate was good and we had a fun time. Ended up down to 4 HP and facing about five mobs. We were trying to pull and my character, sneaking backwards, fell off a small ledge. So, it was a hat trick and that kinda sucks but I had fun anyway so I don't consider it a waste of time.

One thing players tend to do in PD is start grinding lower level content. They formulate some sort of strategy that reduces all the risk just so they can get to "the good stuff". But then when they lose a character, they can't imagine grinding it again. The solution isn't to make the grind easier or faster. That just creates a different grind at a differnt level. For me the solution is finding ways to enjoy the journey, even when it ends prematurely.

cdemeritt
11-24-2009, 01:58 AM
I would have to say the final call is yours and your guild... But if I was making the call, I'd say If you allow Vet status,At least one PD toon has to have earned it... if I were to purchase Vet status or use a non-PD toon to aquire it, it seems a bit like a bypass of the spirit of PD.... Of course this is just me.

Soulken
11-24-2009, 02:02 AM
So far it seems that most if not all of the PD guilds out there do not like this idea.

I may start a Vet status PD guild if there is support out there for it. I have enjoyed the low lvl quests again because of PD. However, I doubt it will be fun to re run KI more than once or twice even with the risk of perma death.

I would interested in a veteran PD guild

Almerel
11-24-2009, 07:59 AM
For those of you that are interested if you could add your support to this thread it would help to organize.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=215835