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Viccoo
10-29-2009, 11:06 PM
Hello All. Need some starting advice on this Two weapon fighting build. I'm going to buy the 32 point build as soon as I can get a character progression plan in order for this guy. I'm having a hard time getting him off the ground with the DDO character gen.

Im thinking I want him to fight in plate and utilize strength over dex. If someone could convince me otherwise I'm fully open to that idea. He should have some grand saves and dps in the end.

Basic idea. 32 Point Start as Human Rogue using Strength. 15 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 12 wis, 14 cha.
Level 2 (and/or 3) take Paladin then take 6 levels of ranger to get Tempest for duel wielding.

Would you want to take the second rogue level at 20 to maximize UMD? And maybe not even take the first one until lvl 10 or so.

I haven't been able to locate any builds in any of the forums yet so any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks Much

Vic

ReaperAlexEU
10-30-2009, 08:15 AM
few ground rules, if you have evasion, milk it! that means light armour and ensuring you have a good reflex save (paly + 14 dex gets you in the right place). naturally you'll want to stay in the full plate until you get evasion. and pumping strength as you level is a good route.

if you take rogue, take it as lvl1. when you start you get a once off rack of skills 4 times the normal amount that class gets. paly's get naff all skills, rangers get quite a few but rogues get absolutely tons, ergo any rogue splash will start as rogue for lvl1. after that they do indeed leave the last lvl of rogue till much much later (lvl10+ depending on how many skill points you have to play with, safer to go later)

i have a similar build, its mostly ranger tho, it does make our starting stats very similar

this is an early version:
http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4788737&postcount=137

i changed it based on my likely hood for getting tomes (put focus on +1's and +2's instead of the +3's). its also now tempest and knight of the chalice. if your interested i can post my working version when i get home (european time zone).

at lvl20 my AC is below par, still working on getting those last few rare items. however what i lack in AC i make up for with my saves and evasion (got evasion at lvl16, it was a long hard wait). i really enjoy the UMD, i can cast heal, raise dead and even resurrection (raise dead but with 50% hp, useful in a raid when its falling apart).

if your going to buy tomes off the store don't forget you will be given a free +2 when you hit 1750 favour

not sure what the pro's and con's are for going mostly paly vs mostly ranger, both paths should have some nice stuff. oh, one more thing, my toon is a dorf, gives dorf axe's as a good alternative to kopesh without the feat cost and the dorf armour mastery enhancement for squeezing more dex into an armour, also has some saving throw bonuses vs spells. once again there will be pro's and con's for each race, and both should be quite workable.

Geonis
10-30-2009, 08:24 AM
Hello All. Need some starting advice on this Two weapon fighting build. I'm going to buy the 32 point build as soon as I can get a character progression plan in order for this guy. I'm having a hard time getting him off the ground with the DDO character gen.

Im thinking I want him to fight in plate and utilize strength over dex. If someone could convince me otherwise I'm fully open to that idea. He should have some grand saves and dps in the end.

Basic idea. 32 Point Start as Human Rogue using Strength. 15 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 12 wis, 14 cha.
Level 2 (and/or 3) take Paladin then take 6 levels of ranger to get Tempest for duel wielding.

Would you want to take the second rogue level at 20 to maximize UMD? And maybe not even take the first one until lvl 10 or so.

I haven't been able to locate any builds in any of the forums yet so any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks Much

Vic

1- Drop Wis 2 points and up Dex to 15. This lets you get GTWF with only a +2 Dex tome, and you can use a +6 Wis item.

2- What is with the Tempest/Pally 12 builds?!?!

It is a waste of a feat(Dodge/Mobility/Spr Atk vs TWF/ITWF) to get what 2 more levels of Pally will get you (+10% atk speed with Zeal).

Also, you lose out on Holy Sword, which lets you go into Shroud/ToD/VoD, etc.... without spending 48 larges on dual Min2s.

You also lose out on tier 3 PrE, set bonus for the top end loot, more Smites, Exalted Smite 3 and 4, more LoHs, etc.....

A huge waste of time and effort in my book......

The only way I put 6 levels of Ranger into a Pally, is if I drop Evasion altogether and go 14/6 for Tempest and Zeal, and I like Evasion too much to do that.

Viccoo
10-30-2009, 08:46 AM
Thanks so much for the thoughts fellows. I would love to hear some other peoples ideas on this build.

Reaper, if it's not too much trouble, I would love to see the other build you are making. As much utility as this character has with UMD, evasion, awesome saves, great AC, decent damage, I am wondering how much damage is left on the table by not going mostly paladin levels as was discussed above. If anyone who knows a lot about upper level paladins could share some thoughts it would be greatly appreciated!

Vic

ReaperAlexEU
10-30-2009, 09:27 AM
sure, will be about 5-6 hours tho till i can gather the info. my build was quite defence focused and it was very refreshing to play a durable character after all my squishy gimps :). damage wise he's also been fine, probably not top notch but more than enough to hold his own and rack up the kills.

will be interesting seeing what the differences are between the 2 builds :)

tihocan
10-30-2009, 09:43 AM
Personally I would start with Str 16 / Dex 15 / Con 14 / Int 8 / Wis 10 / Cha 14.
Just make sure you plan your ranger/rogue levels so that you can max out UMD after getting a +2 Int tome.
The Wis is only really to cast ranger spells, so at first you may need some item (or owl's pots), but it won't be an issue once you get some tome.
Then the 15 Dex is a must to get your ITWF/GTWF feats. And +1 Str compared to your original build won't hurt :)
Btw, all level up points go into Str.
Oh, and forget about full plate as soon as you get your 2nd rogue level (take it earlier than 20 too, you want evasion sooner).

ReaperAlexEU
10-30-2009, 04:45 PM
Name: Grout (chosen because its a woody sounding word, google "Woody and Tinny Words" to see what i'm on about)
Class: Rogue1/Ranger12/Paladin7
Race: Dwarf

Levelup: 1st level Rogue, then did 3 paly for immunities, 6 ranger for tempest then mixed ranger and paly to keep skills high

Base attributes:
Strength 16
Dexterity 14
Constitution 15 (I changed this to 16)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 11
Charisma 12 (I changed this to 11)

i swapped 1 cha for 1 con, this matched the tomes i had banked better
so instead of waiting for a +3 CON tome i'm waiting for a +3 CHA tome. probably better to have less HP but better saves, smites and LoH.
both starting stats did not plan for lvl20 so both would benefit from a +3 STR tome.

Ending attributes (at 20):
Strength 31 (16 base + 5 level + 2 tome + 6 item + 2 Rams)
Dexterity 24 (14 base + 2 tome + 2 ranger + 6 item)
Constitution 26 (15 base + 3 tome + 2 dwarf + 6 item, i'm on 24 with no tome due to changes)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 18 (11 base + 1 tome + 6 item). Optional, i'm on 16 with a +4 wis item)
Charisma 22 (12 base +2 tome +2 paladin + 6 item, i'm on 20 with +1 tome due to changes)

I'll be doing the numbers below based on my actual char, not its potential when all the tomes and gear are in place. I'll also indicate areas that can be improved on.

Skills: Intimidate and UMD primary, leftover points into acrobatic skills (balance, tumble, jump)

UMD:
23 ranks
+5 cha
+6 shroud
+1 luck from voice of the master (+2 luck from reavers head)
+5 titan (+3 golden cartouche is easier to get)
+4 GH
+2 rangers boost.
= 46 (resurrection=44)

Intimidate:
23 ranks
+5 cha
+1 luck (+2 luck)
+13 item
+6 shroud item
+4 GH
=52. Good for day to day intimidating, a bit short for raid bosses. Would need Skill Focus features for more. also i don't have the intimi ring equiped by default, got a nice proof vs poison + greater false life on. will have to swap bits about when i finish my AC off and can grab aggro more often.

Saves: (buffed up)
Fort: 34
Ref: 34
Will: 23
Add 4 from Dwarf bonus vs spells.

Fort:
13 base
+7 con
+5 cha
+3 aura
+1 voice
+1 resistance item
=30 (34 vs spells)
+4 GH
=34 buffed (38 vs spells)

Ref:
12 base
+7 dex
+5 cha
+3 aura
+1 voice
+1 resistance item
=29 (33 vs spells)
+4 GH
+1 haste
=34 buffed (38 vs spells)

Will:
6 base
+3 wis
+5 cha
+3 aura
+1 voice
+1 resistance item
=19 (23 vs spells)
+4 GH
=23 buffed (27 vs spells)

Missing:
+1 to all swapping voice for reavers head
+1 to all market ritual
+1 to all if i ever get a +3 char tome or if you follow original base stats and have +2 tome
+1 to fort +2 con tome or if you follow original base stats and have +3 tome
+1 to will +6 wis item (have +4 wis ring with 40 SP)

Feats:

1: toughness
3: dodge
5: FE undead
6: mobility
9: spring attack, FE evil outsider
12: imp crit
15: power attack
18: oversize twf, FE elemental

Enhancements
ranger skill boost I
dorf armour mastery II
dorf axe attack II
dorf axe dmg I
dorf con II
dorf spell defence II
paly courage of good I
paly bulwark II
paly resistance II
paly divine sacrifice I
paly exalted smite I
paly extra loh I
paly extra smite III
paly knight of the chalice I
racial toughness III
rgr fav att I
rgr fav dmg II
ranger tempest II
paly energy of the templar I
paly char II
ranger dex II
paly tough III

Hit points: 474 at the mo, 499 when i finish my green steel, 519 if i get a +2 con tome. thats all pre-buffs so add more for rage.

AC: using +5 mithral breastplate, self buffed, extras in brackets:
10 base
+10 armor
+7 Dex bonus, dwarven armor mastery II lets me stretch max dex bonus
+7 shield
+3 aura
+1 alchemical ritual on armour
(+1 alchemical ritual on shield when i get a speical shield)
+5 deflect, have a cloak i can swap to, will be on my last GS item
+5 barkskin (you can always chug a +3 pot if there is no ranger near by)
+1 haste, on air guard goggles
+4 insight, on mintu axe
+2 dodge, chaosgarde
(+3 dodge chattering ring)
+1 dodge
=55 (+1 to +4 with rares = 56-59 )

With 'optional' stuff:
+2 block mode
+2 defensive stance, normaly in power attack stance
(+3 CE, need +3 INT tome first, and would have to loose oversized twf)
=59 (+1 to +7 with rares = 60-66)

Damage output (physical):
+10 Str bonus
+5 weapon
+5 power attack
+2 Rams
+2 Divine Favor (paladin 6)
+1 dwarf axe enhancement
+9 average from 2d8 green steel dorf axe
(+6 vs two favored monsters)
= 34 (40 FE)

Also add:
- 2d6 - 3d6 elemental/alignment
- Divine Sacrifice
- 1d6 + 3 sneak attack (rogue1)
- Smite here and there

Combat styles (you have all by default):
- Axe + Shield (more so when items are all in place)
- two hander (greataxe, good option if you can't punch through DR)
- TWF (greater TWF, my default style at the mo)
- archer (Multishot can be very useful)

Gear, the aim:
Armor: full plate until evasion -> +5 mithral BP -> hounds BP of destruction -> Kundarak delving suit
Shield: Hound for best blocking DR
Weapon: Mineral II DA with +4 Insight AC
Helm: Minos -> Mineral II (HPs, Fort, +5 deflect)
Cloak: +6 Cha of +X resist (your saves are good, so no need for perfect resist item, see also trinket)
Trinket: Voice of Master -> Reavers head with alchemical ritual
Bracer: Chaosgarde
Belt: +6 Str -> Titan belt (+6 Str, GFL)
Gloves: +6 Dex (Titans gloves for UMD)
Googles: shroud, Air/air/air (cha skills, mana, air guard)
Ring1: false life -> chatering ring (see also Belt)
Ring2: Intimidate, greater energy resist set
Boots: stride, firestorm graves, Titans boots (stride + balance), velah FOM boots, acrobatic utility
Neck: +6 Con

Gear, reality right now:
Armor: +5 mithral BP OR Dragon Touched light armour (has healing amp 10%, healing amp 20%, freezing ice guard, not planned for, just lucky rolls and kept it like that, DT looses 2 AC but i like the healing amp and guard to tend to use it more than mith BP)
Shield: +5 heavy
Weapon: mineral II dorf axe with acid, good burst, +4 Insight AC
Helm: Minos -> Mineral II (working towards this one now)
Cloak: +6 Cha of +1 resist (can swap to +5 prot if i need AC while working towards helm)
Trinket: Voice of Master
Bracer: Chaosgarde
Belt: +6 Str
Gloves: +6 Dex (Titans gloves for UMD, got lucky on the titan gloves!)
Googles: shroud, Air/air/air (cha skills, mana, air guard)
Ring1: greater false life with proof against poison (cute ring i looted) OR Intimidate +13
Ring2: +4 wisdom with 40 SP
Boots: stride
Neck: +6 Con

Pros:
- very high saves. seldom fail saves, will be better once pimped out.
- Evasion. In combination with high saves makes you near immune vs elemental damage
- useful AC. sadly only enough for vales quests, new ones have pushed the bar out again.
- usefull Intimidate
- good HPs (dwarven advantage)
- good DPS
- high enough UMD for Raise/Heal/Reconstuct. Can use rr/align resticted items
- solid self cure/heal with wands, Loh and scrolls
- self buffs
- adaptable. Has all combat styles
- good DC for combat tactics, trip lands often enough to be useful

Cons:
- sometimes miss my fighters maxed out attack bonus
- good/high, but not Ultimate
- AC helps a bit but takes a long time to flesh out. also seems to have fallen behind the curve for new content

ReaperAlexEU
10-30-2009, 05:04 PM
there, finally written up my notes on him and checked all the numbers are a reality and not just theory :)

i'm sure there are better builds out there, but this one has given me a lot of entertainment so i can vouch for it working well enough to be used. i'm half way between a casual player and a power gamer, so it takes me quite a while to gather things like tomes and raid gear. he was able to tank with axe + shield until he hit giant hold, then he just about managed to tank on norm but that was it. since then i've been mostly twf with a paralyser in the main hand and a curse spewer in the off hand. grout got a lot better when he got evasion and enough UMD for heal and res scrolls. he's helped heal some bad shroud raids, including one when our only cleric DC'ed leaving just chars with UMD to keep the tanks alive! its a great feeling to get the cleric back up on his feet during a bad fight.

Viccoo
10-31-2009, 01:54 AM
Whew amazing man. I'll have to look back at this in the morning...it's 2 am.

Viccoo
10-31-2009, 10:34 AM
since then i've been mostly twf with a paralyser in the main hand and a curse spewer in the off hand. grout got a lot better when he got evasion and enough UMD for heal and res scrolls. he's helped heal some bad shroud raids, including one when our only cleric DC'ed leaving just chars with UMD to keep the tanks alive! its a great feeling to get the cleric back up on his feet during a bad fight.

This is pretty much what I was looking to make this character for---Almost Exactly. I really appreciate all the effort you put into this. I'm planning on wearing a plate through the lower levels (we'll see in game) then getting evasion rather quickly as was suggested.

Thanks again man. I may PM you if I hit any bumps in the road. =]

Happy Halloween!!!!!

Vic

redraider
10-31-2009, 10:41 AM
This build is a feat nightmare!

The Tempest reqmts take so many that you don't really have enough for everything you need. Getting the TWF feat, spring attack, etc just sucks down you feats.

I know its not what ou asked, but 12 Ftr/6 Rgr/2 Rog is a much better combo due to the feats. 18 Pali/2 Rog (sub Monk as appropriate) is a much more appropriate because you can use zeal and not waste 2 feats on dodge and mobility.

Let us know what you did if you go Pali as I have looked at this many times and just can't make the feats work.

ReaperAlexEU
10-31-2009, 10:56 AM
yeah, thats one bonus i got from going mostly ranger, all the twf feats for free. still tight on feats tho, i'd be reluctant to loose oversized twf for combat expertise if i ever get a +3 int time. having said that twf its self gives 50% bonus to the number of attacks and imp twf gives a 75% bonus. so even if you cant get greater twf your still getting a lot of swings, which would work wonders with a para+curser combo. would need to do some number crunching tho to compare the dps to using a greataxe, tho i suspect twf would still come out on top.

Solmage
10-31-2009, 11:39 AM
I have to agree - if you're going to dilute your dps by not staying pure, and you absolutely want the versatility of a very high UMD, possibly intimidate or open locks or some other skill like that, and you like paladins, you should consider paladin 18/rogue 2. If you decide the skills don't matter to you that much after all, but you can't live without evasion, monk 2 is a better option.

Pros:

- Zeal (10% speed boost like tempest, but without feat expenditure)
- Access to Tier3 prestige enhancements and gear dependent on said enhancements
- Access to the equivalent of a free +5 holyburst transmuting weapon of your choice against demons and devils. - This is about the equivalent of getting several millions of PLAT worth of shroud ingredients to craft similar weapons. (Less of a concern for us with dozens of shroud ingredients in our chars, but of importance to newbies who may take 6 months of hard work to craft their first weapon)
- Higher DPS, and access to 2nd highest tiers of exalted smite and divine might
- Insanely better lay on hands for emergency heals
- Higher Bulwark of Good AC Aura (useful if going for AC while dual wielding with the monk option)

Cons:
- No manyshot, no bow strength

Another build you should consider for amazing flexibility and just plain fun to play is a rogue1/ranger 18, with the last level usually being used by a monk, but doesn't have to be, specially if you go strength-based. It can have some awesome skills (among others full rogue skills and decent UMD), evasion, great self buffs, and with the monk option achieve some respectable AC too.