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Gray_Bodhisattva
10-29-2009, 07:56 PM
I was ideaing around a death knight build for DDO, I specifically used Vecna in the title so you'd know I wasn't talking about the WoW Blasphemies to Lord Soth and the Thirteen Deathknights. The requirements were: create undead, Aura, Cause fear, heavy armor, THF, high saves, high str, high cha, self buffs, negative energy spells. How did I do and any advice to make it a bit better?

EDIT: After thinking it over and respeccing the build, I have come up with a new setup which advice I need on. Thanks for everyone's help so far! Also, don't mind the +4 tomes, they're just for fun. To me AC doesn't matter much, Human, DPS, self-healing, high-saves, and not getting one shotted are my major goals. Negative energy nukes, create undead, auras, DPS barrier (blade barrier/flame wall etc), heavy armor and THF are all flavor goals. Having both my major and flavor goals met are what I'm looking for, beyond that I'm open to suggestion about anything regarding the build. Unfortunately I can't use 32 point builds, premium classes, or premium races for quite some time.


Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Fighter / 6 Paladin / 12 Cleric)
Hit Points: 350
Spell Points: 794

BAB: 17/17/22/2727
Fortitude: 26
Reflex: 16
Will: 21

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 26
Dexterity 12 16
Constitution 12 17
Intelligence 10 14
Wisdom 12 18
Charisma 14 20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 10
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 10
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 10
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 10
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 10
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 10
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 20
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 3 14
Bluff 2 5
Concentration 1 3
Diplomacy 2 14
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 5
Heal 1 21
Hide 1 3
Intimidate 2 5
Jump 4 14
Listen 1 4
Move Silently 1 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 2
Search 0 2
Spot 1 4
Swim 2 8
Tumble 3 11
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I

Level 2 (Paladin)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 4 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I

Level 5 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I

Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell

Level 7 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I

Level 8 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I

Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II

Level 10 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III

Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III

Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II

Level 13 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Strength I

Level 14 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV

Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might II

Level 16 (Cleric)

Level 17 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I

Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning I

Level 19 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead I

Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I

Got alot of enhancement points left, overall I think it might be pretty good. What says you about this?

Junts
10-29-2009, 08:07 PM
why rog2 on a heavy armor build? Just for umd? You'd probably gain more by just doing rog1, and possibly not doing pal7, and getting 13 caster levels on harm, blade barrier and heal instead of just 11.


As a character with blade barrier, you really do want to take the maximize spell feat (instead of cleave, which blows) so that you can use the spell, and possibly be a borderline capable spot healer with mclw and mcmw.

Cleric smiting enhancements aren't needed: life magic covers inflict wounds, and smiting only covers a few, very poor (holy smite, chaos hammer, etc) spells you won't use.


It's an interesting build idea though without number crunching I can't tell you how you'll perform ac wise; about all I can tell you is that its highly unlikely you will have the ac to actually get anything out of your full plate at endgame, and that you'll probably be playing a lot like builds with more cleric do (like 18 cle / 2 fighter type builds), as neg energy spells are pretty poor on ddo.

Gray_Bodhisattva
10-29-2009, 08:16 PM
Op Edited

Brennie
10-29-2009, 08:35 PM
HOnestly I started making a black guard, then finished it as a death knight, so thats why there is rogue in there >.<
Anyways I'm suprised negative energy spells would be so bad in DDO. I'll probably have to redo this again after I finish smoking, be prepared for a future edit to the OP

They're equally as bad in Pen and Paper.

If you're looking for effectiveness, I'd add a lot more or a LOT less cleric levels.

If you're looking for roleplay... why are you a lawful good paladin o_O?

Also, consider Rogue Assassin. Nothing says death knight like sneak attacking, poisoning, assassinating, and vorpal striking your enemies.

Gray_Bodhisattva
10-29-2009, 08:43 PM
Op Edited

Junts
10-29-2009, 10:12 PM
Why is it people say play a different build instead, and not trying to figure out how to make an idea work?

If I have to resort to copy catting builds here, I will quit playing MMOs. DDO is the last hope.

EDIT: ffs

Its not a question of copy-catting so much as that you're not fully aware of the benefits and impacts of various char levels (for example, pal7 is not a particularly good level) and so while your idea is interesting, you're piecing together things in a combination that isn't necessarily complimentary.

You might want to look at other builds not to copycat them but to figure out why they succeed at doing the various things you want your build to do, and then look at what they need to succeed at that specific task or role.

Building unique and interesting characters on DDO is quite possible and entertaining, but expect to mess up for a while when doing so because you are learning an entirely different, and rather complex, system, which incorporates new aspects (like enhancements) not even present in pen and paper, and the real time nature of the game changes the value and even bsaic function of some things entirely (eg, cleave is great in pnp .. on DDO, it is completely different and a rather poor feat. But you wouldnt know that until you got to level 10 and started losing damage by using it because it takes too long and isn't very helpful).

Quintun
10-29-2009, 11:02 PM
Why is it people say play a different build instead, and not trying to figure out how to make an idea work?

If I have to resort to copy catting builds here, I will quit playing MMOs. DDO is the last hope.

EDIT: ffs

Figuring out how to make it work is your job based on the advice some people give. While you may not want to hear it sometimes the best advice will not include the classes or feats you want. That is what advice is for, you can choose to use it or ignore it.

tihocan
10-30-2009, 09:56 AM
You can pretty much forget AC on such a build, so remove the heavy armor (so at least evasion will work), and possibly drop down Dex (will hurt your reflex, but the paladin bonus should compensate).
You can swap power attack and THF. PA is often best kept off at very early levels.
Going Pally 6/Cleric 12 will let you take the tier II prestige enhancement line as a cleric, which may be handy since there's probably going to be a battle-cleric one (warpriest). We don't know the prereqs yet though.

Gray_Bodhisattva
10-30-2009, 11:26 AM
Op Edited

Junts
10-30-2009, 12:47 PM
Junts has class. Thanks for your advice.

You're working with a pretty difficult build concept, primarily because you're giving up some of the best cleric levels in DDO (12-15) and hitting 15cle would do a lot more for your character than any of the melee levels could, since it will give you so many sp and so much spell strength (maxing out heal, harm and blade barrier die basically) that sp will be the only difference between you and a 20 cle in using those spells (presuming you take maximize for bb).

The untyped damage spells (BB and cometfall) are by far the cleric's best offensive acasting on DDO, and you can use the other 5 levels to either be great at beating things down, or to have some great defense, though I would warn you that if you're not planning on a wis based/monk splash build, you probably won't be able to get both offense and defense out of those 5 splash levels. I would advise offense, because there are some great items in DDO that cause sp regen when you are hit in melee, and though they are raid loot and tough to acquire at first, they make being a cleric type incredibly entertaining (get hit 3 times, get more sp back than it cost to heal yourself).

A strong two handed melee build using that kind of thing to heal itself and using clerical aoe spells to deal with large groups of mobs is very, very cool, and probably about the closest you'll come to your concept.

Having both very high ac and very good offense on DDO is hard even for pure melee classes, and only a few combinations can do it very successfully; when trying to cast as well, its pretty much impossible. You'll need to pick one.

Gray_Bodhisattva
10-30-2009, 02:38 PM
Op Edited

Junts
10-30-2009, 02:43 PM
To me AC doesn't matter much, Human, DPS, self-healing, high-saves, and not getting one shotted are my major goals. Negative energy nukes, create undead, auras, DPS barrier (blade barrier/flame wall etc), heavy armor and THF are all flavor goals. Having both my major and flavor goals met are what I'm looking for, beyond that I'm open to suggestion about anything regarding the build. Unfortunately I can't use 32 point builds, premium classes, or premium races for quite some time. kinda hit the financial gutter for a while. Any advice about this?

Edit: obviously to wear heavy/medium armor I should use divine spells, and paladin is the only class I know of that has auras. Also fear effect rp (diplomacy?) if there are no fear aura modifications(none I know of) are wanted but not as important

If you want a fear effect you mght as well take a couple more cleric levels for lv 6 spell slots; symbol of fear is one of the only ones that actually works, and most players will absolutely hate you if you use fear effects

For better effect you should just get any 'fearsome' item, which can fear mobs that hit you in melee .. but everyone will hate you, because mobs will constnatly run as far away from you and the party as possible, even when they have to be killed, and then will catch back up at inopportune times, or force people to chase them to the far end of the quest to kill them.

DDO players hate fear effects.

Gray_Bodhisattva
10-30-2009, 02:54 PM
Op Edited

Junts
10-30-2009, 02:56 PM
there's a number of items that can give you gt on all weapons intead of spending 6 class levels for it.

Gray_Bodhisattva
10-30-2009, 03:07 PM
Op Edited

Junts
10-30-2009, 03:55 PM
I'd find a way to get cleric 13/14/15, as they are incredibly powerful levels and are likely to do more for your effectiveness than youd get from 3 melee class levels .. I'd peg yourself for 15 cle and spend 5 levels tops on the melee stuff; this will also give you lv 7-8 spells, which include the much better inflict damage spells .. if you're gonna get anything out of inflicts (and you probably will find you ont really load or cast them cause they do suck badly) you might as well get the good ones; ilwm and imwm will not even begin to be useful. With a greater nullification 8 ring, serious and critical might be useful; more realistically, you will use blade barrier for aoe and harm for single-target damage.

BB isnt just better than inflict spells here, it's better by like a power of 5 .. if you've got it, you will end up using it instead of inflicts, as it's a pervasive aoe and you can hit a mob with it 10-12 times per cast instead of once, in addition to it doing more damage and nothing being immune or resistant to it .. and it having a higher base damage die.

I'd suggest to you 15 cle / 4 pal / 1 fighter, as a human, with feats that look like this, with the fighter level taken late so all feats are available with it that require bab:

1: extend spell
1h: toughness
3: two-handed fighting
6: power attack
9: maximize spell
12: improved two-handed fighting
15: quicken spell
18: improved critical: slashing weapons
18f: greater two-handed fighting


you'll probably be best off with a greataxe, and I suspect you ant a great sword for aestetics; so use a falchion, which are way better than greatswords, and if your +damage is high enough, also better than greataxes. (not sure your +dam will be, but it should be close at least)

Go something like 16 str, 14 con, 16 wisdom, 14 charisma (cha to get value out of your paladin levels. divine grace/2 lay on hands per day). In the end, you'll lose out on a paladin prestige class and divine might I, but you'll gain so many spells and abilities from those 3 cleric levels you'll be glad you took them in the end.

Honestly 4 pal isnt the best idea, but it works well with what you wanted for your build, so I kept it; If I were making a char like this, it'd be a 18/2 cle fighter. Stopping at 12cle is something you'll really regret though, since most of the most frequently used cleric spells stop improving at cle 15 anyway, the last 5 levels are spell points, spell slots and lv 9 spells .. heal, harm and blade barrier are maxed out, and you'll use them constantly.

Gray_Bodhisattva
10-31-2009, 12:35 AM
I have finally edited the original post,w ith some new design theories in mind. I've included all the advised feats in it, taken out rogue, added fighter, and couldn't decide between toughness*2 or lightning reflexes so I used toughness*2. I used some spell point enhancements to up my SP total, and I was considering getting Spell Penetration with some of my extra enhancement points. CLeric 12 will give me slots for Harm, Blade Barrier, and Create Undead, which fulfills my flavor policies so I don't really see the need to go further their. Any advice would be appreciated about the newly revised build. Thanks.

Junts
10-31-2009, 01:59 AM
You'll have to load heal, your other spells wont be adequate to keep you alive; I really advise dropping the 2nd fighter level if you're using its feat on toughness or lightning reflexes (the first is bad to take twice, the second is just bad) and taking cle 13 to get another spot.

Gray_Bodhisattva
10-31-2009, 02:05 AM
You'll have to load heal, your other spells wont be adequate to keep you alive; I really advise dropping the 2nd fighter level if you're using its feat on toughness or lightning reflexes (the 2nd is bad to take twice, the first is just bad) and taking cle 13 to get another spot.

Perhaps, but I also have lay on hands a few times with a pretty high charisma, if I absolutely must use HEAL then I suppose I might have to go for cleric 13, paladin 6, fighter 1 strangely however before that I was considering making a 12 cleric 6 fighter 3 paladin...I'm not sure what the point would be besides kensai however. also I used the last one on GTHF, which freed up a slot for something else, I noticed my HP wasn't that high at all..only about 300 so I took another toughness feat.

Junts
10-31-2009, 02:13 AM
Perhaps, but I also have lay on hands a few times with a pretty high charisma, if I absolutely must use HEAL then I suppose I might have to go for cleric 13, paladin 6, fighter 1 strangely however before that I was considering making a 12 cleric 6 fighter 3 paladin...I'm not sure what the point would be besides kensai however. also I used the last one on GTHF, which freed up a slot for something else, I noticed my HP wasn't that high at all..only about 300 so I took another toughness feat.

Heal is so much better than your other cuartive spells that you -will- drop another spell to load it; if you want to keep create undead (by the way, cu is so bad that its not even useful for flavor .. the mobs have about 20 hit points), you'll want that extra level, cuase after you play for about 2 days, you'll have ahard time justifying keeping create undead loaded over a spell as important as heal).

Xyfiel
10-31-2009, 02:19 AM
If you prefer unorthodox builds, the only way to really see how it works is play it. Then you can come back here in a month or two and see why no one else has that build. Theory is useless if you don't know what you are theorizing against. Only way to know that, play the game, on different roles. Play a healer, a caster, offensive melee, and a defensive melee, and you will know everything you need to make this work. In shorter form, play a rogue2/paladin and a max wisdom cleric to at least 16, and you will understand why not having heal and counting on negative spells isn't mana effiecient, or party friendly.

Create undead is not a good party spell, it fears everything and the melee have to chase them to kill them. This takes more time, time is lost mana on buffs, mana saved from not healing. End result=same mana spent, more time taken.

Gray_Bodhisattva
10-31-2009, 02:33 AM
BB, Harm, and Heal at lvl 6 cleric spells
Spell REsistance, protection from elements, true seeing, and stalwart pact lvl 5 cleric spells
divine power, Recitation, symbol of flame,and death ward lvl 4 cleric spells
Prayer, Bestow curse, all stat buffs lvl 3 and lower cleric spells

Would you change anything?

Xyfiel
10-31-2009, 03:44 AM
BB, Harm, and Heal at lvl 6 cleric spells
Spell REsistance, protection from elements, true seeing, and stalwart pact lvl 5 cleric spells
divine power, Recitation, symbol of flame,and death ward lvl 4 cleric spells
Prayer, Bestow curse, all stat buffs lvl 3 and lower cleric spells

Would you change anything?

stalwart pact-->raise dead
symbol of flame-->freedom of movement
bestow curse-->magic circle against evil maybe, something