PDA

View Full Version : Halfling 2/18 Rogue/Bard Warchanter With Strange Priorities



Ecnassianer
10-29-2009, 06:24 PM
This will be my second character (my first is only level 3 right now) These are the features I'm looking for in order of importance (least important at the bottom)

Halfling
Bard
TWF
To be useful to raids at endgame
Open Locks
Reasonable ability to heal (I play with a sorcerer and a paladin/cleric who can pick up where I lack)
Disable Devices
Good buffs
Lots of jump
reasonable ability to sneak, at least at lower levels
Between 1 and 4 +1 tomes. (I'd prefer only 2)


Things to keep in mind
I can get +2 dex from Halfling Enhancements (only +1 is shown below)
I can get +1 dex from Rogue enhancements at my second rogue level (which is not shown below)
I can get some cha from my Bard Enhancements (only +1 is shown below)

So far this is the plan I've come up with goes until the point where I take Warchanter at level 7, and have TWF and Open Locks/Disable devices. That pretty much sums up the things I really want to be able to do, so the rest is gravy.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Ecna Grandiose
Level 7 Chaotic Good Halfling Male
(1 Rogue \ 6 Bard)
Hit Points: 76
Spell Points: 225
BAB: 4\4
Fortitude: 5
Reflex: 11
Will: 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 7)
Strength 13 14
Dexterity 15 16
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 12 14
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 13 14

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 7)
Balance 3 6
Bluff 1 2
Concentration 2 3
Diplomacy 1 2
Disable Device 5 6
Haggle 3 8
Heal -1 -1
Hide 3 7
Intimidate 2 3
Jump 6 13
Listen 0 2
Move Silently 6 9
Open Lock 6 7
Perform n/a 11
Repair 1 2
Search 3 4
Spot 1 1
Swim 2 2
Tumble 4 5
Use Magic Device 5 10

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Halfling Athletics I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I


Level 2 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Bard Perform I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I


Level 5 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I


Level 7 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I

And 1 AP left over.




I'm looking for general advice as well as a few specific questions:

0) General advice?
1) When should I take my second rogue level?
2) Since I'm getting Evasion with my second rogue level, will I be able to keep my reflex save high enough for it to be useful?
3) How much Int do I need to keep my skills high enough to be useful endgame?
4) Will keeping UMD or Balance maxed be necessary for this build? (I haven't played a ton, but so far feel like my points in these skills have been fairly wasted.)
5) I plan to dump a lot of points into these: Jump, Perform, Open Lock, Disable Device. Anything else I need to focus on?
6) People talk a lot about search and spot for rogues. How much will I suffer if I neglect these skills?
7) Anything specific I should I plan to pick up between 7-20?

tihocan
10-30-2009, 10:12 AM
0) General advice?
Good luck!

1) When should I take my second rogue level?
As early as possible (for evasion) *but* maximizing your ability to catch up on skills at the same time. So, need to do some good planning here.

2) Since I'm getting Evasion with my second rogue level, will I be able to keep my reflex save high enough for it to be useful?
Yes.

3) How much Int do I need to keep my skills high enough to be useful endgame?
Again, need to plan it carefully. Most likely 12 is not enough. There are tons of skills you want (UMD/Perform/Jump/Open Locks/Disable Device/Search/Spot/Hide/Move silently) and you can probalby use all the Int you can get, and may still have to do some sacrifice.

4) Will keeping UMD or Balance maxed be necessary for this build? (I haven't played a ton, but so far feel like my points in these skills have been fairly wasted.)
UMD: yes.
Balance: no (target something like 15+ buffed at L20 and you'll be fine).

5) I plan to dump a lot of points into these: Jump, Perform, Open Lock, Disable Device. Anything else I need to focus on?
UMD/Search. Spot will help too, though it's possible to skip it if you don't mind running into traps and not seeing invisible/sneaking foes.
You can probably skip Jump, or at least not invest too much in it. In the long term it's kinda wasted since there is a ML18 named item with a high caster level jump clicky on it.

6) People talk a lot about search and spot for rogues. How much will I suffer if I neglect these skills?
See above for Spot. Neglecting Search will prevent you from finding traps => no disabling for you.

7) Anything specific I should I plan to pick up between 7-20?
I'm guessing raising Int at L4 was a typo?
If you're going Dex-based you should pick weapon finesse.

Geonis
10-30-2009, 11:05 AM
Something like this should get you to level 10:

Only used 1x +1 tome (Str).




Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.06
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 10 True Neutral Halfling Male
(2 Rogue \ 8 Bard)
Hit Points: 90
Spell Points: 242
BAB: 7\7\12
Fortitude: 4
Reflex: 16
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 10)
Strength 12 13
Dexterity 17 22
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 14 14
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 12 12

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 10)
Balance 7 10
Bluff 1 1
Concentration 1 1
Diplomacy 1 1
Disable Device 6 15
Haggle 1 1
Heal -1 -1
Hide 7 12
Intimidate 1 1
Jump 5 11
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 7 12
Open Lock 7 17
Perform n/a 14
Repair 2 2
Search 6 15
Spot 3 3
Swim 1 1
Tumble 7 10
Use Magic Device 5 14

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I


Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Focusing Chant
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I


Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (2): Cat's Grace


Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Spell (2): Rage
Spell (1): Feather Fall
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II


Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (2): Invisibility


Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II


Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I

Ecnassianer
10-30-2009, 02:38 PM
1) When should I take my second rogue level?
As early as possible (for evasion) *but* maximizing your ability to catch up on skills at the same time. So, need to do some good planning here.

7) Anything specific I should I plan to pick up between 7-20?
I'm guessing raising Int at L4 was a typo?
If you're going Dex-based you should pick weapon finesse.

How does one "maximize your ability to catch up on skills"? Does the level that I choose to up my rogue a second time affect how many skill points I can put into my skills? Or are you just saying that I should let those skills lag just before I take the rogue so they aren't near max?

I raised Int at level 4 to get it up to 14, so I would be getting more skill points when I leveled. Is this a bad idea?


Geonis, thanks for your build recommendation. I'm gonna go over it later when I have more time to look closely and probably ask some questions about it. :)

tihocan
10-30-2009, 02:50 PM
How does one "maximize your ability to catch up on skills"? Does the level that I choose to up my rogue a second time affect how many skill points I can put into my skills? Or are you just saying that I should let those skills lag just before I take the rogue so they aren't near max?
When you take your 2nd rogue level, you'll have extra skill points to allocate. You want to use them to max (as much as possible) these skills you care about, but weren't able to max while leveling as a bard due to lack of skill points. That's what I meant by "catching up on skills".
The risk is taking your 2nd rogue level too early, so that you can't spend all your skill points in useful skills (and then you'd end up wasting these skill points). That would happen for instance if you took your first 2 levels as rogue.
So, in short: you want to take your 2nd level of rogue at a level when you can use all your skill points into skills you care about. You can play with the character planner if you're not comfortable with doing the maths ;)


I raised Int at level 4 to get it up to 14, so I would be getting more skill points when I leveled. Is this a bad idea?
Yes. For two reasons:

1. Except for classes where Int may be the main stat (i.e. mostly wizards), it's best to start with whatever Int you want to be your final score, and never put any level-up point on it. Otherwise, you're wasting skill points.
In your situation, I'm guessing your plan was to invest another point into Int at L8 to reach 14 (otherwise 13 Int is pointless). But consider instead increasing Int to 14 at creation, and dropping another stat by 2 points. You'd get +1 skill points from creation to L8, and by putting your level up points into that other stat, you'd end up with the same base stats (but with more skill points).

2. Spending level up points on low stats means you are wasting your initial build points. For instance, at L4 with your current plan you'd be at Str 13 and Int 13. Now consider instead starting with Str 12 and Int 14, then spending your L4 point into Str. You end up at L4 with Str 13 and Int 14... i.e. +1 Int!

Geonis
10-30-2009, 02:58 PM
For later levels, just continue with the Bard progression on the skills.

Level 12 feat ITWF or Imp Crit-Pierce, take the other one of these at 15, and GTWF at level 18. Extend would be nice, you just don't have the feats for it in this build....

Of course, if you do continue with this character all the way through cap, and craft a pair of Min2 weapons (Min2 includes Keen on it), you could swap out Imp Crit for Extend.


Between Bard songs, Pwr Atk and Sneak Atk, this build should be doing some pretty good damage.

whysper
10-30-2009, 02:59 PM
See the Bard forums for some discussion on thief-skilled Warchanters. At this point, I think most have come to the consensus that it is going to be really, really hard to be an effective trapmonkey without some exceptional gear and a fair bit of experience and/or tactical eye.

If you just want Warchanter/Evasion - that works. If you want Warchanter/Traps on Normal, maybe not Hard/Elite - that works.

That said, by all means check some of the builds and give it a try. As you are a new player, I cannot stress enough that you should strive for a decent Spot score (not at the expense of UMD/DD/Perform/Search, though.) The people who know where all the traps are in the handful of quests they run and do not care about new content will tell you it is a waste, but in practice it is not.

Ecnassianer
10-31-2009, 03:39 AM
Geonis,

I was curious about your reasoning behind the 17 dex. I was thinking I might put a point in CHA and a point in CON and go with 16 Dex. I haven't sorted out all the feats or enhancements yet, but I wanted to know why you chose that extra point.

Thanks again for your build, it's been a really helpful guide for changing my version.

Ecnassianer
10-31-2009, 04:49 PM
Now I'm getting tempted to buy the 32 point option.