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lazyliquid
10-28-2009, 04:25 AM
After read the Build Help: The Jedi (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=202077&highlight=jedi) thread, i felt curious about the possibility of Human Sith (Chaotic Neutral) based on Sorc / Fighter (5-1 rite now) using a 2H-Greatsword and electric attacks (Evocation School), starting using the following start template.

Str 15
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 12
Wi 10
Cha 15

The main goal is have a average AC (armor, mobility and buffs), some HP (more to kamikazi than to tank build), good spells damage with low resist or imunity chance, and a decent melee capacity. I dont care so much about death risk (since i be dangerous too) or high SP(mana) dependency.

Is it possible?
What would be the most apropriate multiclass distribuition?
Even if electric spells are not as good as fire and cold, what is the best way to use when you dont have fear to get closer to the foe? Does it Stunt enemies?
What are the + and the - of pick the Chaotic Neutral Alignment on this case? Is that hard to find some GreatSword that reminds a Red Lightsaber and really can hurt people?

Thank you if anyone answer, even to say why it will not works (at least after a certain level, because by now im being a versatile damage dealer and debuffer).

Avonwey
10-28-2009, 05:04 AM
Its generally not a good idea to mix caster classes with melee. A straight fighter will far outperform a mixed fighter/sorc.

lazyliquid
10-28-2009, 05:43 AM
Yeah, i understand your point. I´ve read here so many times about how messed a multiclass can be compared to any pure class. Also ive saw some "excentric" but cool builds be called as "play style dependant", Fun or RP. And yes, by now i agree this build cant solo so well...

My actual multi is Sorc 5 / Fighter 1, but my goal is build this template aiming to Sorc 6 / Fighter 14. Then ill be able to use all spells i think are important to look like a Sith and not open hands of some Fighter´s essencials.

Plus, by now my buff and debuff spells (Mage Armor, Magic Shield, Bull´s Strenght and Ray of Enflebement) are making a vital diference for me. And is being pretty cool to solve some party issues related to Stone Elementals, Skeletons, Undead... my strategy is kill the casters on the first sight and then help the tanker to deal damage against who is strong against melee and fire/ice spells (regular caster´s favorites).

Well, there are still no answers aboout some questions i´ve made in the first post, so ill ask one more thing: How intimidate can be usefull when i dive inside a crowd mess?

ddoer
10-28-2009, 05:47 AM
Yeah, i understand your point. I´ve read here so many times about how messed a multiclass can be compared to any pure class. Also ive saw some "excentric" but cool builds be called as "play style dependant", Fun or RP. And yes, by now i agree this build cant solo so well...

My actual multi is Sorc 5 / Fighter 1, but my goal is build this template aiming to Sorc 6 / Fighter 14. Then ill be able to use all spells i think are important to look like a Sith and not open hands of some Fighter´s essencials.

you should prepare to solo a lot as many groups may not take your build into their party. it will be very tough to level to 20.

there is nothing wrong to build the sith build to have fun, however. You'd better get to know a group of role play gamer before you start, so you got friends to group with.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-28-2009, 05:53 AM
you should prepare to solo a lot as many groups may not take your build into their party. it will be very tough to level to 20.

there is nothing wrong to build the sith build to have fun, however. You'd better get to know a group of role play gamer before you start, so you got friends to group with.

I agree with this. I suspect your build will be a little too odd to be commonly accepted. I don't recommend it. You won't be able to fully put out the melee or spell damage. If you do decide to do it, your best bet is probably a WF Sorc with a level of fighter to at least maximize your spell casting options. As for your red weapon, you could stick with true chaos/anarchic weapons. They will give you the look you want and tear up some mobs, but for other mobs they will do very little damge.

EAB
10-28-2009, 08:49 AM
The big question is why? At higher levles you will not be as effective as a Sorc or Fighter. You can do this but you will learn the hard way. :)

doppleganger
10-28-2009, 08:59 AM
It always amazes me when I see new players getting out of their ways to do mutt builds before even learning the ropes of the standard classes. In my opinion, melee + arcane combinations should only be attempted once you can actually answer the kind of questions you are asking.

Thrudh
10-28-2009, 09:08 AM
It always amazes me when I see new players getting out of their ways to do mutt builds before even learning the ropes of the standard classes.

Because no other game lets you multi-class like this one? Because it's fun? (until it's not)...

OP... A better choice might be a sorc/paladin. Both paladins and sorcs use CHA... When you multi-class, you want to look for overlaps like that...

Multi-classing is fairly straight-forward... You have to compare what you gain with what you lose... The compendium has good information on each class...

For instance... say you want to compare a 20 fighter to a 18 fighter/2 rogue... Just compare what you what you get from levels 19-20 as a fighter to what you get from levels 1-2 as a rogue...

Fighter 19-20:
10% boost to attack speed... This is BIG
A feat

Rogue 1-2:
UMD class skill
1d6+3 sneak attack
Evasion (if your Reflex save is high enough)
+1 Dex enhancement

Therigar
10-28-2009, 09:49 AM
PUKE!!!! GAG!!!! VOMIT!!!!!

Sorry, those were my reactions in reading the responses to OP (other than Thrudh, who beat me to a response).

The "you'll never amount to much" and "nobody will love (er, group with) you" lines are just so much horse manure.

The servers are full of players thanks to F2P and nearly all of them have no clue what they are doing or why. As a result their character builds vary from mildly amusing to genuinely horrid. Yet, somehow, they manage to plug away until they hit L16 and higher ("to infinity and beyond" to quote Buzz).

A sorcerer/fighter multiclass will only get tossed from groups led by elitists who insist on having the ultimate cookie-cutter party designed to maximize every aspect of the game and speed through content at the fastest practical pace for maximum loot and reward. The notion that the build will not succeed or that it will have difficulty in grouping is simply unfounded.

As proof I offer my much ballyhoo'd and often maligned mutt of a battlecleric which is currently L17 as cleric 12/paladin 3/monk 2. This completely useless build continues to progress and has never received a tell saying, "Sorry, we'd like a real cleric/tank/whatever." In all of the weeks since launch of DDO:EU he has been ignored in group requests only twice. Rather than being rejected, he is accepted to nearly every group.

The same will be true for OP's build. The shear number of players means that almost nobody cares. A fighter is a fighter and they are darned happy to have another one.

Now, @ OP.

When update 1 goes into effect today go to the DDO store and buy the 32 point build. Rebuild your character with the following stats: STR 15 DEX 11 CON 17 INT 8 WIS 8 CHA 15. Start as a sorcerer and take the first 6 levels. Then switch to fighter. (Alternately, take 1 level of fighter at L1 then the 6 levels of sorcerer). As you increase levels put your stat increases into STR. Use your human stat enhancements to increase STR and CHA.

Your goal for stats is:

STR 32 (15 base + 1 human enhancement + 3 fighter enhancements + 5 level increases + 2 tome + 6 STR item)
DEX 18 (11 base + 1 tome + 6 DEX item)
CON 24 (17 base + 1 tome + 6 CON item)
INT 8 (8 base)
WIS 8 (8 base)
CHA 26 (15 base + 1 human enhancement + 2 sorcerer enhancements + 2 tome + 6 CHA item)

Your spell selection is:

L1: Jump, Magic Missile, Nightshield, Shield
L2: Blur, Melf's Acid Arrow
L3: Haste

Magic Missile is force damage. Use the Force! Melf's has no save and no spell resistance. The fact that some higher level creatures are resistant to acid is moot since you won't be using spells on them anyways. It is a toss up between Haste and Displacement but, IMO, Haste will have more utility.

Do not go for Intimidate as a skill. You will not have the AC to take the focus of attacks. Instead cross-class into UMD. Your skills should be UMD and, IMO, Spot. A good alternative to Spot is Balance. Do not put points into Concentration because you won't be casting spells during combat. Do not put points into Jump because you will use the spell.

The only metamagic feat you need is Extend. Use the rest of your feats for things to improve your THF. Don't forget to take Toughness. If you don't know what else to take, take Toughness (you can always swap later if you find something useful).

scidude
10-28-2009, 02:44 PM
Toasters make better "Jedis" cause they can heal themselves. And Jedis are also proction orient, so a paladin splsahs makes more sense. Could do like a two handed sword with a toaster sorc16/monk2/paladin2. Or just take sorc high enough to get haste and then put the rest into some kind of mix of melee classes. Not worth it imo, tho.

jmonty
10-28-2009, 02:46 PM
If you do decide to do it, your best bet is probably a WF Sorc with a level of fighter to at least maximize your spell casting options.

this, but consider wiz/barbarian too. :)

edit--this might be helpful:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1991101&postcount=5

i think the class split is 1 barbarian, 2 rogue, and the rest wizard.

Therigar
10-28-2009, 03:53 PM
Toasters make better "Jedis" cause they can heal themselves. And Jedis are also proction orient, so a paladin splsahs makes more sense. Could do like a two handed sword with a toaster sorc16/monk2/paladin2. Or just take sorc high enough to get haste and then put the rest into some kind of mix of melee classes. Not worth it imo, tho.

Are Jedi Lawful and Good? Are Sith Chaotic and Evil?

IMO general perception will be that the two are opposites. I question whether either can be Chaotic as both obey a side of the Force. Which side is Good and which Evil probably depends on how they have been portrayed and which is victorious.

Paladin does not seem to fit populer perception of Sith (although it would make for more powerful D&D characters). Lawful Neutral would seem most appropriate give DDO alignment restrictions.

The next issue is nature of this particular Sith. Is it primarily arcane (uses the Force) or fighter (uses light weapons). OP's initial concept favors the fighter side.

Would it hurt to post concerning ways to make OP's concept work rather than changing the entire build -- race and classes -- to fit what we think is a better game tool?

Brennie
10-28-2009, 04:36 PM
Are Jedi Lawful and Good? Are Sith Chaotic and Evil?

I would think Sith would be Lawful Evil, if anything. Heck, they even have their own "code"!

To OP: If you want to be a cool Sith AND useful in DDO terms, think about modeling yourself after the Emperor. If you've played any of the KOTOR games, he would be more of a Consular type, AKA pureclass sorceror. And of course, start with 18 Charisma, cause that guy ran the frikkin Empire for decades using only his charm to keep his alter ego hidden :P

Shocking Grasp is probably the most "Force Lightning"-ish spell. At higher levels you can get Electric Loop, Ball Lightning, Lightning Bolt, and Chain Lightning (which is currently bugged/broken).

Chaotic Neutral will let you weild Anarchic and Tue Chaos weapons, which will give you your cool red lightsabery feel. I'd recommend longsword or rapier for pure asthetics (No Jedi/Sith use long two-handed geat-lightsabers! C'mon now!). Neutral will let you use "taint of evil" items, which is very sithlike. True Neutral is superior from an Optimzer standpoint, but Chaotic Neutral won't hurt you.

You will not be proficienct with these weapons (but you can slap on a Masters Touch spell, how sith sounding is that ^_^) and then go to town. Tensers Transformation in later levels will also help you out in the melee department, but remember that the Emperor controlled the flow of battle from the back lines whenever possible.

Hold Person/Hold Monster can fill the "Force Choke" feel, and Charm Person/Dominate person/Charm Monster can fill the jedi Mind Trick role. Phantasmal Killer and Finger of Death can even give the "I'm so evil, i look at you and you die" feel. Several other spells also have a very Jedi-ish feel, like Haste (Jedi are fast!) Jump (you saw Yoda!), Blur (If you move fast enough, people strike where you were, not where you are), Displacement (same), Sheild/Nightsheild (Deflecting blaster bolts! Er... magic missles!) and things of that nature. Even Scorching Ray or Magic Missle can help you feel like you just whipped out a blaster! Pew Pew Pew!

I do emplore you to *not* try to multiclass Fighter with Sorceror. Concept characters are awesome and all, but it simply does not fit well into the DDO mechanics. Your melee and spell damage, armor class, hitpoints, ability to hit, etc, will all suffer. It is not a gentle way to help ease yourself into the game. Its actually a quick way to get frusterated and burnt out on the DDO experience all together. And lastly, if yuo ever decide to stray away from concept character and into a more optimized role, you can always change feats, spells, and enhancements over time, for in-game currency. You cannot change Class Levels, Alightment, Skills or starting stats without using the reincarnation system (Which costs Turbine Points AKA real world money).

scidude
10-28-2009, 04:53 PM
Sith are not chatoic, that's for sure. More lawful than most light Jedi. Better off just ignoring the whole alignment thing. A sith would be Neutral(10%) or Lawful(90%) Evil.

lazyliquid
10-28-2009, 05:28 PM
Well, im not so familiar with every Barbarian specification, but i believe that Sorc / Barb also would offer a good choice for a Sith Build too, if i would aim to a wild build. Maybe if the Rage and Bull´s Strenght stacks, i could have some extra power. But i choiced the Fighter as split class because i liked more, considering the kensei path, more balanced abilities and some interesting enhancements.

By now my goal is something like Sorc 7 / Fighter 13. I want to still dangerous, without not be balanced. Pick the Human Race for some extras was very convenient.

My idea of Sith is not even close to a tank nor a ranged caster. My goal is build a versatile fighter with a lot of mobility who can deal damage on most kind of enemies, helping a tanker to kill that mob that insist to not get damaged. I mean, right now i can take 60 dmg from undeads, wraiths, skeletons and some others enemies witch the normal melee fighters swear to kill.

Yesterday, my party discovered something tricky about the wraith: Everytime you get killed by one, it get your "soul" and replicate another new wraith. Well, we discovered kinda late, when the number of foes growed from 2 to 8 (after the whole party be killed by them). Miraculously i and only me could kill them all, running like a desperated and casting shocking sparks against them. I think a natural melee without a specific weapon or a caster with low defense and hp couldn´t handle it.

Ok, maybe a good cleric or paladin could deal easier with it, but hey... Siths are not nice guys! Paladins or Cleric for multiclass Sith kinda weird.

At least i never saw a Sith with a kind heart. The dark side of the force is BLACK, not grey.

About alignment, i tought: If my Sith is Lawfull Evil, so ill must be a bad guy and respect an "emperror". But if i follow a Anarchic Neutral, i dont have a shiny heart, but also i dont give a f... for doutrines. So i like the second option better, or else i would must to sabotate every quest or raid i would join, and THAT would makes me unwanted on a party.

scidude
10-28-2009, 05:39 PM
Ok, maybe a good cleric or paladin could deal easier with it, but hey... Siths are not nice guys! Paladins or Cleric for multiclass Sith is out of discussion.

At least i never saw a Sith with a good heart. The dark side of the force is BLACK, not grey.

There are evil clerics and paladins.

Quintun
10-28-2009, 06:54 PM
After read the Build Help: The Jedi (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=202077&highlight=jedi) thread, i felt curious about the possibility of Human Sith (Chaotic Neutral) based on Sorc / Fighter (5-1 rite now) using a 2H-Greatsword and electric attacks (Evocation School), starting using the following start template.

Str 15
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 12
Wi 10
Cha 15

The main goal is have a average AC (armor, mobility and buffs), some HP (more to kamikazi than to tank build), good spells damage with low resist or imunity chance, and a decent melee capacity. I dont care so much about death risk (since i be dangerous too) or high SP(mana) dependency.

Is it possible?
What would be the most apropriate multiclass distribuition?
Even if electric spells are not as good as fire and cold, what is the best way to use when you dont have fear to get closer to the foe? Does it Stunt enemies?
What are the + and the - of pick the Chaotic Neutral Alignment on this case? Is that hard to find some GreatSword that reminds a Red Lightsaber and really can hurt people?

Thank you if anyone answer, even to say why it will not works (at least after a certain level, because by now im being a versatile damage dealer and debuffer).


I fail to see how this build is dangerous, other than to my group losing 10% EXP when you die. You will not have much AC, you will not have a ton of HP to offset the damage, but you most likely will not get aggro much either. Spells will not land or do any real damage after the mid levels anyway.

Maybe wait for KOTR MMO to release and build a sith in a game where it actually fits.

Therigar
10-28-2009, 07:26 PM
There are evil clerics and paladins.

Not in DDO. :)

whysper
10-28-2009, 07:34 PM
Spells will not land or do any real damage after the mid levels anyway.
Yeah, the lightning thing will probably not work so great, but Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Frost Lance, Chain Missiles, Enervation, Ray of Exhaustion...

Brennie
10-28-2009, 07:46 PM
By now my goal is something like Sorc 7 / Fighter 13. I want to still dangerous, without not be balanced. Pick the Human Race for some extras was very convenient.

This will be a a very underwhelming character.

For survivability, either yuo are wearing amror and sheilds, and thus making it difficult to cast, or you're wearing robes and using spells, in which case the fighter levels are entirely unnecessary to your survivability.

You will not be "Dangerous" with this build. You will lack any combat spells with decent punch as you cannot cast anything higher than level 3, you will have very little SP to use said spells, you will lack the better enhancements to make them really sting, you will not be using the correct gear to make them sting even more (unless you are hotswapping weapons between swings), and anything with a save *will* be saved against. Anything that allows spell resistence will be resisted, though that applies less to damage spells.

Likewise, your melee abilities will be hurting. You will have subpar hitpoints for 7 levels (Gaining 28 hitpoints instead of 70!), you will either sacrifice AC for robes, or risk high spell failure, you will start with low strength and have to decide whether to increase strength or charisma at level ups, you will lack Kensai 3 and the fighter capstone, and will have to split Enhancements, feats, and skills between two classes that have no complimenary aspects.

DDO is *NOT* like most other MMOs. Most other MMOs have pre-built classes that you can fiddle with to make them optimized awesome, or slightly less than perfect. most of these "optimizations" matter very little, and are less important than group makeup or gear. Either way, you can still do fine with the content provided.

DDO hands you a fairly open multiclass and character building system that is very easy to screw up in, ultimately creating a character who is not just "Suboptimal" but is truely a liability. Deep multiclassing of a caster without intimate knowledge of the game is one of the easiest ways to achieve that.

Again, I strongly strongly suggest that this not be your first attempt at a character. Theme characters are entirely viable, as long as you are willing to be open about the possibilities of the theme. Sorcerors make great Sith Overlords (C'mon, you can charm person from level 1!). Chaotic monk/other melee class combos could let you whip out chaotic/anarchic red glowy weapons, while jumping around, ebing speedy, and even having a few "Magic-like" effects (Monks can use lightning too!), all while still being a perfectly viable character who resembles a Sith Maurader (Borrowing from KOTOR again). Heck, even a straight Rogue can take the Assassin path with a couple rapiers or shortswords, and with Evasion and a few other rogue tricks, it totally fits the theme.

Quintun
10-28-2009, 08:08 PM
Yeah, the lightning thing will probably not work so great, but Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Frost Lance, Chain Missiles, Enervation, Ray of Exhaustion...

How often will these spells land with all of 6 Sorc levels? One chain missle? One Frost lance? He can not even use enervation. The rest are level 3 so he could have any one of them which after level 10 will be all but useless.

Brennie
10-28-2009, 08:21 PM
Yeah, the lightning thing will probably not work so great, but Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Frost Lance, Chain Missiles, Enervation, Ray of Exhaustion...

Ray of Enfeeblement is the only one of those spells worth noting. Scorching Ray will do 4d6 damage on a level 6 sorc, Frost lance will do 4d10 (more like 2d10, since fort save + wicked low charisma = never gonna stick it), Chain Missle will do a whopping 3d4+3, While Enervation and Ray of Exhaustion will no be availible to him.

Quintun
10-28-2009, 08:30 PM
Ray of Enfeeblement is the only one of those spells worth noting. Scorching Ray will do 4d6 damage on a level 6 sorc, Frost lance will do 4d10 (more like 2d10, since fort save + wicked low charisma = never gonna stick it), Chain Missle will do a whopping 3d4+3, While Enervation and Ray of Exhaustion will no be availible to him.

Compendium has Ray of Exhaustion as a level 3 spell.

Brennie
10-28-2009, 08:36 PM
Compendium has Ray of Exhaustion as a level 3 spell.

You're right! I take that back, then! He WILL be able to cast the spell. Whether or not he will ever make it past enemy Spell Resistence or enemy Fort saves is a different matter entirely, though.

Ditto on spell resistence for Ray of Enfeeblement.

Quintun
10-28-2009, 09:03 PM
You're right! I take that back, then! He WILL be able to cast the spell. Whether or not he will ever make it past enemy Spell Resistence or enemy Fort saves is a different matter entirely, though.

Ditto on spell resistence for Ray of Enfeeblement.

We both know he has no chance of getting it past SR or saves reliably. None of those spells will be of use. His only spell that will matter is haste and some real caster is going to have a better version.

You can build anything you like, but DDO is a game built on group dynamics and while you may find so groups that have room for you, you will find it harder to get groups come the shroud or Vale. Some will argue that their X build has no problem getting groups, but look up those builds on MyDDO instead of the theory they put here and see what they really look like, not what they would like with all the gear they do not have yet.

Those builds are let in to fill out groups, they are not sought after nor are they a vital part of the group. They get called pileons for a good reason.

whysper
10-28-2009, 09:08 PM
The Fortitude save part of RoEx is secondary. If you do not know what I mean, you should give it a try.

A 13/7 or similar split would be rather difficult, sure, but it is quite possible to build a viable battlemage (a 2Pal/2Rog/16Sor, for example, can be monstrous.) How well it translates into "sith" is a different matter.

Quintun
10-28-2009, 09:22 PM
The Fortitude save part of RoEx is secondary. If you do not know what I mean, you should give it a try.

A 13/7 or similar split would be rather difficult, sure, but it is quite possible to build a viable battlemage (a 2Pal/2Rog/16Sor, for example, can be monstrous.) How well it translates into "sith" is a different matter.

14 fighter 6 sorc is not going to be good and all those spells you listed are not going to save it.

whysper
10-28-2009, 09:36 PM
14 fighter 6 sorc is not going to be good and all those spells you listed are not going to save it.

A 14Ftr/6Sor is unlikely to be good, particularly played by a new player, but I was not addressing that (Therigar did, however.)

Do you think the OP is dead-set on 14/6? Or even the classes? Or, really, anything?

Quintun
10-28-2009, 09:43 PM
A 14Ftr/6Sor is unlikely to be good, particularly played by a new player, but I was not addressing that (Therigar did, however.)

Do you think the OP is dead-set on 14/6? Or even the classes? Or, really, anything?

He wants to play a sith in DDO. I really was not taking this that seriously right from the first line. I was going to suggest the Ewok race myself.

Brennie
10-29-2009, 02:42 AM
He wants to play a sith in DDO. I really was not taking this that seriously right from the first line. I was going to suggest the Ewok race myself.

You mean dwarf ^_^?

Kralgnax
10-29-2009, 10:13 AM
You mean dwarf ^_^?
I resemble that remark!

Battleworm
10-29-2009, 10:24 AM
PUKE!!!! GAG!!!! VOMIT!!!!!

Sorry, those were my reactions in reading the responses to OP (other than Thrudh, who beat me to a response).

The "you'll never amount to much" and "nobody will love (er, group with) you" lines are just so much horse manure.

The servers are full of players thanks to F2P and nearly all of them have no clue what they are doing or why. As a result their character builds vary from mildly amusing to genuinely horrid. Yet, somehow, they manage to plug away until they hit L16 and higher ("to infinity and beyond" to quote Buzz).

A sorcerer/fighter multiclass will only get tossed from groups led by elitists who insist on having the ultimate cookie-cutter party designed to maximize every aspect of the game and speed through content at the fastest practical pace for maximum loot and reward. The notion that the build will not succeed or that it will have difficulty in grouping is simply unfounded.

As proof I offer my much ballyhoo'd and often maligned mutt of a battlecleric which is currently L17 as cleric 12/paladin 3/monk 2. This completely useless build continues to progress and has never received a tell saying, "Sorry, we'd like a real cleric/tank/whatever." In all of the weeks since launch of DDO:EU he has been ignored in group requests only twice. Rather than being rejected, he is accepted to nearly every group.

The same will be true for OP's build. The shear number of players means that almost nobody cares. A fighter is a fighter and they are darned happy to have another one.

Now, @ OP.

When update 1 goes into effect today go to the DDO store and buy the 32 point build. Rebuild your character with the following stats: STR 15 DEX 11 CON 17 INT 8 WIS 8 CHA 15. Start as a sorcerer and take the first 6 levels. Then switch to fighter. (Alternately, take 1 level of fighter at L1 then the 6 levels of sorcerer). As you increase levels put your stat increases into STR. Use your human stat enhancements to increase STR and CHA.

Your goal for stats is:

STR 32 (15 base + 1 human enhancement + 3 fighter enhancements + 5 level increases + 2 tome + 6 STR item)
DEX 18 (11 base + 1 tome + 6 DEX item)
CON 24 (17 base + 1 tome + 6 CON item)
INT 8 (8 base)
WIS 8 (8 base)
CHA 26 (15 base + 1 human enhancement + 2 sorcerer enhancements + 2 tome + 6 CHA item)

Your spell selection is:

L1: Jump, Magic Missile, Nightshield, Shield
L2: Blur, Melf's Acid Arrow
L3: Haste

Magic Missile is force damage. Use the Force! Melf's has no save and no spell resistance. The fact that some higher level creatures are resistant to acid is moot since you won't be using spells on them anyways. It is a toss up between Haste and Displacement but, IMO, Haste will have more utility.

Do not go for Intimidate as a skill. You will not have the AC to take the focus of attacks. Instead cross-class into UMD. Your skills should be UMD and, IMO, Spot. A good alternative to Spot is Balance. Do not put points into Concentration because you won't be casting spells during combat. Do not put points into Jump because you will use the spell.

The only metamagic feat you need is Extend. Use the rest of your feats for things to improve your THF. Don't forget to take Toughness. If you don't know what else to take, take Toughness (you can always swap later if you find something useful).

No,you're totally right.A brand new player that has NO CLUE about anything should mix the 2 worse possible classes to mix and carry his mutt build all the way to the waterworks door.How many groups will keep him and his untwinked and useless build (sorry op)?People,keep in mind for all we know he doesn't know the quests,which spells or feats he wants and you just say yes,do it.Great way to make someone leave without even knowing.After being told 100 times he sucks what do you think is most likely to happen?I wonder.

Therigar
10-29-2009, 01:05 PM
No,you're totally right.

That is correct. You should remember that. :D


A brand new player that has NO CLUE about anything should mix the 2 worse possible classes to mix and carry his mutt build all the way to the waterworks door.

This is not the worse possible class mix. You are clearly prone to over-exaggeration and have already forgotten that I'm totally right. :(


How many groups will keep him and his untwinked and useless build (sorry op)?

The vast majority of them. See your first point. :)

As I clearly stated, most players are happy to have characters to fill in their groups. The class mix will scarcely matter. The build will be a L14 fighter that has some self buffs that will do him in emergency situations. His BAB will be no worse than a rogue that is in the party and with the Kensai enhancement line his damage will be as good as most of the other warrior types.

These things are true because the majority of players are not min/max builds focused on ultimate DPS or AC or DR -- they are generally 28 point builds pulled straight off the pre-made character list or attempts to recreate PnP characters that are not DDO-centric.

Your errors are a) you forgot your first point and b) you are in the minority (as are most veterans posting ATM) in thinking groups demand uber builds. :)


People,keep in mind for all we know he doesn't know the quests,which spells or feats he wants and you just say yes,do it.

Yep. Because this isn't about making YOU happy it is about meeting the OP's stated goal. A L6 sorcerer (even a fighter 1/sorcerer 6) will have no trouble grouping. Everyone knows he can't carry the weight in a quest yet. The biggest controversy will be "Haste or Fireball" as a different thread has shown.

In the transition to fighter 6/sorcerer 6 there will be some "that's an interesting build" comments. But, thanks to the Anger's set and the insight goggles from Korthos the build will still hit just fine and the STR focus will mean that it will damage just fine as well.

OP does know what they want. However, I gave recommendations regarding spells because they are more realistic and useful to OP than the present set (see original post). I did not recommend feats because most people clever enough to post a build idea are also smart enough to read the feat list and figure out what a THF build needs.


Great way to make someone leave without even knowing.After being told 100 times he sucks what do you think is most likely to happen?I wonder.

You wonder because you continue to forget the first point you made - I am totally right. By definition this means you are totally wrong. But, more importantly, the reality of the DDO gaming population and your assumptions on how the build will be received means you are totally wrong.

In a group you run OP will be met with derision -- if he even is allowed into your group. This applies to veteran players and some new players who believe that every build must be uber. Elitists will always denigrate things that do not further their goals.

However, the reality of DDO:EU is that people are just wanting to have full groups and to get through quests with completions. They are not freaking out when it doesn't go perfectly -- they don't need (and in some cases don't want) a script to tell them how to do things most efficiently. Read the forums, people want to experience the quests.

For the majority of players the only desire is to get to the end after having had fun along the way. They don't care about your build, my build or any other character's build.

OP won't be in any group as the arcane caster after about L8 or 9. OP knows that. OP will be in groups as one of the "tanks." He'll stand in doorways while someone else puts up a wall of fire or he'll bash mobs along with the rest and that will serve him and the group thru L16 at least.

DDO just isn't that hard. It really does not demand perfect builds or perfect group dynamics. As a result people will not blame OP for a party failure -- those blames are reserved for clerics and arcanes.

OP's build will be an eccentric fighter build -- nothing more and nothing less. If people even bother to ask OP will be able to explain that he's working on a Sith because Star Wars is cool and he thought it would be neat. Toss a Nightshield to boost someone's saving throws or a Blur to cut down on hits or a Haste in the middle of a melee to boost the group for a few seconds and he'll be seen as having done something useful.

So, let's go back to what you first posted. I am totally right. Thus, you are totally wrong. You should have stopped at the first sentence instead of proving the corollary. :D

Battleworm
10-29-2009, 01:08 PM
That is correct. You should remember that. :D



This is not the worse possible class mix. You are clearly prone to over-exaggeration and have already forgotten that I'm totally right. :(



The vast majority of them. See your first point. :)

As I clearly stated, most players are happy to have characters to fill in their groups. The class mix will scarcely matter. The build will be a L14 fighter that has some self buffs that will do him in emergency situations. His BAB will be no worse than a rogue that is in the party and with the Kensai enhancement line his damage will be as good as most of the other warrior types.

These things are true because the majority of players are not min/max builds focused on ultimate DPS or AC or DR -- they are generally 28 point builds pulled straight off the pre-made character list or attempts to recreate PnP characters that are not DDO-centric.

Your errors are a) you forgot your first point and b) you are in the minority (as are most veterans posting ATM) in thinking groups demand uber builds. :)



Yep. Because this isn't about making YOU happy it is about meeting the OP's stated goal. A L6 sorcerer (even a fighter 1/sorcerer 6) will have no trouble grouping. Everyone knows he can't carry the weight in a quest yet. The biggest controversy will be "Haste or Fireball" as a different thread has shown.

In the transition to fighter 6/sorcerer 6 there will be some "that's an interesting build" comments. But, thanks to the Anger's set and the insight goggles from Korthos the build will still hit just fine and the STR focus will mean that it will damage just fine as well.

OP does know what they want. However, I gave recommendations regarding spells because they are more realistic and useful to OP than the present set (see original post). I did not recommend feats because most people clever enough to post a build idea are also smart enough to read the feat list and figure out what a THF build needs.



You wonder because you continue to forget the first point you made - I am totally right. By definition this means you are totally wrong. But, more importantly, the reality of the DDO gaming population and your assumptions on how the build will be received means you are totally wrong.

In a group you run OP will be met with derision -- if he even is allowed into your group. This applies to veteran players and some new players who believe that every build must be uber. Elitists will always denigrate things that do not further their goals.

However, the reality of DDO:EU is that people are just wanting to have full groups and to get through quests with completions. They are not freaking out when it doesn't go perfectly -- they don't need (and in some cases don't want) a script to tell them how to do things most efficiently. Read the forums, people want to experience the quests.

For the majority of players the only desire is to get to the end after having had fun along the way. They don't care about your build, my build or any other character's build.

OP won't be in any group as the arcane caster after about L8 or 9. OP knows that. OP will be in groups as one of the "tanks." He'll stand in doorways while someone else puts up a wall of fire or he'll bash mobs along with the rest and that will serve him and the group thru L16 at least.

DDO just isn't that hard. It really does not demand perfect builds or perfect group dynamics. As a result people will not blame OP for a party failure -- those blames are reserved for clerics and arcanes.

OP's build will be an eccentric fighter build -- nothing more and nothing less. If people even bother to ask OP will be able to explain that he's working on a Sith because Star Wars is cool and he thought it would be neat. Toss a Nightshield to boost someone's saving throws or a Blur to cut down on hits or a Haste in the middle of a melee to boost the group for a few seconds and he'll be seen as having done something useful.

So, let's go back to what you first posted. I am totally right. Thus, you are totally wrong. You should have stopped at the first sentence instead of proving the corollary. :D

Ok,sure.OP make sure to come back and tell Mr.perfect how your experiment went.before uninstalling the game preferably.Thanks!And btw,This build wouldn't ever get in any of my groups.You should almost suggest an even better build of 1 paladin,6 wizard and 13monk.Now THAT would rock as good as yours.

Avonwey
10-29-2009, 01:13 PM
As I clearly stated, most players are happy to have characters to fill in their groups. The class mix will scarcely matter. The build will be a L14 fighter that has some self buffs that will do him in emergency situations. His BAB will be no worse than a rogue that is in the party and with the Kensai enhancement line his damage will be as good as most of the other warrior types.

...


Yep. Because this isn't about making YOU happy it is about meeting the OP's stated goal. A L6 sorcerer (even a fighter 1/sorcerer 6) will have no trouble grouping. Everyone knows he can't carry the weight in a quest yet. The biggest controversy will be "Haste or Fireball" as a different thread has shown.


You are wildly off the mark here. 99% of the DDO players I know would never ever group with a 1 Fighter/6 Sorcerer or a 14 fighter/6 sorc. Because it shows that the player has little grasp of what makes good builds in this game.

Battleworm
10-29-2009, 01:14 PM
You are wildly off the mark here. 99% of the DDO players I know would never ever group with a 1 Fighter/6 Sorcerer or a 14 fighter/6 sorc. Because it shows that the player has little grasp of what makes good builds in this game.


I was wondering where all good common sense had gone,thanks for bringing some back.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-29-2009, 01:28 PM
IMO general perception will be that the two are opposites. I question whether either can be Chaotic as both obey a side of the Force. Which side is Good and which Evil probably depends on how they have been portrayed and which is victorious.

I'd definately argue that the Sith are Lawful. They have a strict code, if anything more so than the Jedi. Everything we saw them doing was ordered and planned. I don't think they were particulaily evil either, they didn't kill for the sake of killing, they killed when needed for their ends with no particular value in life, that's neutral in D&D terms. So overall, definately Lawful-neutral.

whysper
10-29-2009, 02:45 PM
You are wildly off the mark here. 99% of the DDO players I know would never ever group with a 1 Fighter/6 Sorcerer or a 14 fighter/6 sorc. Because it shows that the player has little grasp of what makes good builds in this game.

This "99%" is composed of cookie-cutters with little imagination and their lack of skill barely patched up up by gear out the wazoo and cast-iron idiot-proof tactics. Maybe you ought to get to know better players?

Offered in the same spirit of courtesy, helpfulness and mutual respect yours was.

whysper
10-29-2009, 02:48 PM
I don't think they were particulaily evil either, they didn't kill for the sake of killing, they killed when needed for their ends with no particular value in life, that's neutral in D&D terms.

Er...that is Evil. Sith, as an organisation, would probably be Lawful Evil with significant overlap with Neutral Evil and very few Chaotic Evil characters.

Then again, the D&D Lawful-Chaotic axis has always been substandard, because it tries to represent both external and internal rules simultaneously.

Battleworm
10-29-2009, 02:53 PM
This "99%" is composed of cookie-cutters with little imagination and their lack of skill barely patched up up by gear out the wazoo and cast-iron idiot-proof tactics. Maybe you ought to get to know better players?

Offered in the same spirit of courtesy, helpfulness and mutual respect yours was.

So,aside from quoted above,would you really recommend a sucky build like this to a brand new player?Even a vet with twink gear and plat and knowledge would have problems making this heap of @#$%! shine,much less a new player with absolutely nothing.Better be as awesome as you make it to be cause he sure will solo a lot.Oh,make sure to visit the store for rez cakes.

whysper
10-29-2009, 03:17 PM
Which sucky build? There have been 5-7 different suggestions in this thread.

Therigar
10-29-2009, 04:16 PM
In a group you run OP will be met with derision -- if he even is allowed into your group.


And btw,This build wouldn't ever get in any of my groups.

I just hate being right so very often. :D

BTW, what makes you so certain anyone wants into your groups? I mean, seriously, I can't say that I even know you from anywhere but the forums. Why should anyone care? :eek:

Krag
10-29-2009, 04:25 PM
Which sucky build? There have been 5-7 different suggestions in this thread.

Does it matter if it is 14 fighter/6 sorc or 1 paladin/6 wizard/13 monk?

Will the OP have problems soloing content?
Yes, definitely.

Will the OP have problems finding spot in PUGs?
Yes, again.

Will the OP be constantly reminded that his build sucks?
I bet 5000 TP on it.

Will the suggested build be more fun to play than a decent one?
I doubt it.

Therigar
10-29-2009, 04:27 PM
You are wildly off the mark here. 99% of the DDO players I know would never ever group with a 1 Fighter/6 Sorcerer or a 14 fighter/6 sorc. Because it shows that the player has little grasp of what makes good builds in this game.

No, it shows that you have an opinion that isn't compatable with others doing something different. How do you feel about cleric 15/paladin 3/monk 2? Going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing it won't pass your muster.

The problem isn't with OP or his build idea. The problem is with narrow-minded bigots who believe that there is only one way to make successful characters and only one way to conquer DDO.

Now, not by accident, a very common sorcerer build is with a 1 fighter splash. I'll bet your server is full of them. Of course, most happen to be warforged. :)

But, it isn't the build or class split that is the issue. It is people's prejudices.

You, like Battleworm, exhibit a point of view that is your right to have and to hold. It does not, however, have much validity in the DDO:EU experience. Any and every player has not only the ability but also the right to enjoy the game on thier own terms.

OP can build a sorcerer/fighter and he will get enjoyment from that build -- provided that it is what he wants to do. And, honestly, it will be all the sweeter because he's been told it cannot be done.

I happen to run that 15/3/2 split. I happen to group with PuGs almost all of the time. I happen to have an fairly well established reputation among many players who are online during my main gaming times. And, I happen to know that a less than perfect build -- based on forum opinion -- can not only succeed but excel.

What you do is your choice. But assuming that others will act the same only shows the narrowness of your thinking. That is called bigotry. Personally, I'm opposed to that characteristic.

Therigar
10-29-2009, 04:37 PM
I don't think they were particulaily evil either, they didn't kill for the sake of killing, they killed when needed for their ends with no particular value in life, that's neutral in D&D terms.

Er...that is Evil. Sith, as an organisation, would probably be Lawful Evil with significant overlap with Neutral Evil and very few Chaotic Evil characters.

"They are disciplined and believe that adhering to and enforcing laws and traditions is the most important thing. They will not generally go out of their way to help others but will intervene to stop crime."

"They respect the law, but have no concern for others, and tend to exploit the law to rise to power. Often they will engage in merciless, organised, planned killing."

Which more closely describes Sith? The first is Lawful Neutral. The second is Lawful Evil.

Note, however, that DDO does not permit Evil alignments and people tend to view Evil alignments as permitting them to sabotage groups -- something counter-productive in DDO. Thus, regardless of LN or LE the closest DDO alignment will be LN.

Therigar
10-29-2009, 04:38 PM
Which sucky build? There have been 5-7 different suggestions in this thread.

I'm pretty sure the references at this point are to the recommended 32 point sorcerer 6/fighter 14 that I posted. ;)

Therigar
10-29-2009, 04:40 PM
Does it matter if it is 14 fighter/6 sorc or 1 paladin/6 wizard/13 monk?

Will the OP have problems soloing content?
Yes, definitely.

Will the OP have problems finding spot in PUGs?
Yes, again.

Will the OP be constantly reminded that his build sucks?
I bet 5000 TP on it.

Will the suggested build be more fun to play than a decent one?
I doubt it.

Pretty impressive set of opinions from someone with no time on the forums. Does that match your DDO game experience?

Or, are you another "been here since beta -- no, the first beta" folks who just managed to find the forums in the last two months?

Krag
10-29-2009, 04:52 PM
Pretty impressive set of opinions from someone with no time on the forums. Does that match your DDO game experience?

Or, are you another "been here since beta -- no, the first beta" folks who just managed to find the forums in the last two months?

Your interest in my person is flattering.
I'm surprised that you don't even try to deny the truth of my words.

whysper
10-29-2009, 04:56 PM
"They are disciplined and believe that adhering to and enforcing laws and traditions is the most important thing. They will not generally go out of their way to help others but will intervene to stop crime."

"They respect the law, but have no concern for others, and tend to exploit the law to rise to power. Often they will engage in merciless, organised, planned killing."

Which more closely describes Sith? The first is Lawful Neutral. The second is Lawful Evil.

Note, however, that DDO does not permit Evil alignments and people tend to view Evil alignments as permitting them to sabotage groups -- something counter-productive in DDO. Thus, regardless of LN or LE the closest DDO alignment will be LN.

The second is Sith, insofar that particular explanation of the axes is concerned. Another Lawful Neutral archetype is "the judge."

In other news, I rerolled Kcarl into 2Rog/2Pal/16Sor...see how it goes :p

Therigar
10-29-2009, 05:11 PM
Your interest in my person is flattering.
I'm surprised that you don't even try to deny the truth of my words.

If only there were truth there to deny.

However, since you only repeated the same mistruths put forth by others I didn't see much need to show them wrong another time. :cool:

Therigar
10-29-2009, 05:13 PM
In other news, I rerolled Kcarl into 2Rog/2Pal/16Sor...see how it goes :p

OMG!!!! Don't you know you'll never get a group? Don't EVER answer an LFM from me (we all know how great I am) 'cause you'll never get in. That will cause you to quit DDO and everything.

BTW, can I have all your stuff when you do? ;)

Krag
10-29-2009, 06:16 PM
If only there were truth there to deny.

However, since you only repeated the same mistruths put forth by others I didn't see much need to show them wrong another time. :cool:

Screenshot or it didn't happen.

Seriously, do you expect me to believe that TWF focused 6-th level human sorcerer with neither self-heal nor decent AC nor croud control spells will be fine all by himself? Or is he going to improve later?

Are you implying that people won't try to help you by pointing out low synergy of those two classes or by suggesting a reroll?

GunboatDiplomat
10-29-2009, 06:33 PM
DDO is *NOT* like most other MMOs. Most other MMOs have pre-built classes that you can fiddle with to make them optimized awesome, or slightly less than perfect. most of these "optimizations" matter very little, and are less important than group makeup or gear. Either way, you can still do fine with the content provided.

DDO hands you a fairly open multiclass and character building system that is very easy to screw up in, ultimately creating a character who is not just "Suboptimal" but is truely a liability. Deep multiclassing of a caster without intimate knowledge of the game is one of the easiest ways to achieve that.

This is excellent advice. First toon I built was a ranger/wizard, based on my pnp knowledge. Absolute disaster, although people were very nice about how gimped I was. I then started a pure fighter to get to know the game better and it made life a lot easier, not least because people accepted me into their groups and gave me advice rather than just shaking their heads in despair and cliking the 'request denied' button.

Save your multiclass ambitions for a little bit, you will be able to exercise them, just not now!

Brennie
10-29-2009, 07:11 PM
This is excellent advice. First toon I built was a ranger/wizard, based on my pnp knowledge. Absolute disaster, although people were very nice about how gimped I was. I then started a pure fighter to get to know the game better and it made life a lot easier, not least because people accepted me into their groups and gave me advice rather than just shaking their heads in despair and cliking the 'request denied' button.

Save your multiclass ambitions for a little bit, you will be able to exercise them, just not now!

Thank you ^_^!

The debate about whether builds have to be cookie cutter min-maxed or whether free-range idea-making of random build ideas is viable is *COMPLETELY* off base in this discussion.

What you should be asking yourself is: What are the chances a brand new player with no concept of DDO will be able to pull off deep multiclassing a caster with any degree of success? And if your answer is "not likely", will having a difficult time finding groups, having less than decent damage and abilities that are difficult to make work properly cause this new player to dislike his DDO experience?

Personally, I think that if they are coming to the forums for advice, then its a good sign that they don't want to end up frusterated after several levels of griding out their character, just to find they've made a series of poor character build descisions based on bad advice or lack of knowledge.

Deep multiclass casters get a rating of RDTP from me, for "Ridiculously Difficult to Play", and i will continue to suggest new players play a pure caster, a pure melee*, or a bard.

*EDIT: By pure melee, I mean a character designed to be good at beating stuff up, not necessarily a pureclass melee. there are still several new-player-friendly melee multiclasses.

Quintun
10-29-2009, 07:14 PM
No, it shows that you have an opinion that isn't compatable with others doing something different. How do you feel about cleric 15/paladin 3/monk 2? Going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing it won't pass your muster.

The problem isn't with OP or his build idea. The problem is with narrow-minded bigots who believe that there is only one way to make successful characters and only one way to conquer DDO.

Now, not by accident, a very common sorcerer build is with a 1 fighter splash. I'll bet your server is full of them. Of course, most happen to be warforged. :)

But, it isn't the build or class split that is the issue. It is people's prejudices.

You, like Battleworm, exhibit a point of view that is your right to have and to hold. It does not, however, have much validity in the DDO:EU experience. Any and every player has not only the ability but also the right to enjoy the game on thier own terms.

OP can build a sorcerer/fighter and he will get enjoyment from that build -- provided that it is what he wants to do. And, honestly, it will be all the sweeter because he's been told it cannot be done.

I happen to run that 15/3/2 split. I happen to group with PuGs almost all of the time. I happen to have an fairly well established reputation among many players who are online during my main gaming times. And, I happen to know that a less than perfect build -- based on forum opinion -- can not only succeed but excel.

What you do is your choice. But assuming that others will act the same only shows the narrowness of your thinking. That is called bigotry. Personally, I'm opposed to that characteristic.


You should link your build in your signature, this way you do not have to talk about it in every thread you join.

Quintun
10-29-2009, 07:16 PM
Pretty impressive set of opinions from someone with no time on the forums. Does that match your DDO game experience?

Or, are you another "been here since beta -- no, the first beta" folks who just managed to find the forums in the last two months?

You spend too much time worrying about how long people who disagree with you have been around. Funny thing is most of them show much more game knowledge than you so you hope and pray to discredit them through such silly things.

Noctus
10-29-2009, 07:34 PM
Thank you ^_^!

The debate about whether builds have to be cookie cutter min-maxed or whether free-range idea-making of random build ideas is viable is *COMPLETELY* off base in this discussion.

What you should be asking yourself is: What are the chances a brand new player with no concept of DDO will be able to pull off deep multiclassing a caster with any degree of success? And if your answer is "not likely", will having a difficult time finding groups, having less than decent damage and abilities that are difficult to make work properly cause this new player to dislike his DDO experience?

Personally, I think that if they are coming to the forums for advice, then its a good sign that they don't want to end up frusterated after several levels of griding out their character, just to find they've made a series of poor character build descisions based on bad advice or lack of knowledge.

Deep multiclass casters get a rating of RDTP from me, for "Ridiculously Difficult to Play", and i will continue to suggest new players play a pure caster, a pure melee*, or a bard.

*EDIT: By pure melee, I mean a character designed to be good at beating stuff up, not necessarily a pureclass melee. there are still several new-player-friendly melee multiclasses.


This is heads on! Excellent post.

whysper
10-29-2009, 07:36 PM
The debate about whether builds have to be cookie cutter min-maxed or whether free-range idea-making of random build ideas is viable is *COMPLETELY* off base in this discussion.

What you should be asking yourself is: What are the chances a brand new player with no concept of DDO will be able to pull off deep multiclassing a caster with any degree of success? And if your answer is "not likely", will having a difficult time finding groups, having less than decent damage and abilities that are difficult to make work properly cause this new player to dislike his DDO experience?

I agree, and I think the "you probably should not do it" angle has been adequately addressed among the various posts. I have remarked previously that the YOU CAN DO ANYTHING brigade is usually not very helpful (as it does not understand the deficiencies in resources, experience and skill), but neither are the "OMG every1 will spit in you face if you even try!!!" nabobs.

A measured consideration of the various options with their benefits and drawbacks, alternate builds and so on, can only be useful to an OP who, usually, is plenty smart enough to be able to process input and not a mere automaton swayed by whichever advice is yelled loudest.

Brennie
10-29-2009, 07:59 PM
This is heads on! Excellent post.

Apply Directly to the Forehead


...a mere automaton swayed by whichever advice is yelled loudest....

YOU CAN DO ANYTHING

I found this statement amusingly ironic :P

Its nice to finally have some agreement around here though! And great additions Whysper, +1 rep (like you need it, heh)

strath
10-29-2009, 08:33 PM
There are a few ways you could build Jedi/Sith

Favored Soul Pure - I can't stress this enough FS pretty much IS a force wielder. If Jedi pick, healing and buffing spells. If Sith take damage casting and buffs.

Favored Soul with Two levels of monk. I don't usually split FS, but if monk adds to the flavor go for it.

Cleric With 2 levels of monk, as above but you may have to trigger a clicky for your longsword ability. You could add a fighter level, but don't drop Cleric below a target of 17 IMHO, you miss out on way too much good stuff if you do. (some will even tell you NEVER split a cleric!)

Ranger/Monk. Ranger is a very skilled warrior that gets a fair amount of casting mid to late game. The monk stances would also aid the feel of the force . . .

A ranger with monk 2 or 3, if 3 take the healing ability for Jedi, (be warned this ability will feel awesome when you first get it but will be underpowered at high levels)

A ranger and Monk 2 Rogue 1 for Sith (I can't believe no one else wants backstab for a Sith . . .)

The other fun thing about ranger casting would be the feel of going through the training phase, you would really feel like you are working up to force abilities. ^_^

You will notice I did not suggest arcane at all.
This is for three reasons . . .
1) They have really low BAB potential
2) They have low HP, this can be offset by feats but you will never match a cleric in this Dept.
3) Jedi/Sith can FIGHT, I always want to keep the BAB and melee DPS respectably high

Now there is one kind of Sith I would use a Sorcerer for.

Sith lord Emperor - a Sith so old and strong in the force that the sword is rarely used. This is a PURE Sorcerer. Note: He will Melee sometimes and when he does he will do it well . . .
To melee take the right spells
Spells:
LVL 1 Master's Touch, Mage Armor
LVL 2 Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance
LVL 3 Displacement, Haste

At high levels this will become a novelty compared to the damage of your other abilities, but will feel like opening a can of hurt on enemies at the mid levels. No one expects a displaced, hasted, Bear, Bull, Mage armored Master's Touch caster to whip out a Two handed sword and deal out death, but it can happen. This may even be a novelty at low levels because if you cast Bull/Bear, Displacement and Haste on a Melee primary the results are staggering.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 12:19 AM
The debate about whether builds have to be cookie cutter min-maxed or whether free-range idea-making of random build ideas is viable is *COMPLETELY* off base in this discussion.

This is incorrect. It is, in point of fact, the essential part of understanding the various responses. Those who fault ideas without analysis or substance and merely proclaim how nobody will group with such characters are the ones completely off base -- in any discussion. What they mean to say is that they and those they are familiar with will not associate with such builds. That is elitist and does not speak for the entire DDO community. It is an argument without substance and without foundation.


What you should be asking yourself is: What are the chances a brand new player with no concept of DDO will be able to pull off deep multiclassing a caster with any degree of success? And if your answer is "not likely", will having a difficult time finding groups, having less than decent damage and abilities that are difficult to make work properly cause this new player to dislike his DDO experience?

You make the same errors as others are making. You are assuming that the player will have a hard time finding groups, that the build will do less than decent damage and that there are difficulties. You make this assertion without presenting any factual support. You have done nothing to flesh out a build using OP's criteria and to analyze what it can and cannot do.


Personally, I think that if they are coming to the forums for advice, then its a good sign that they don't want to end up frusterated after several levels of griding out their character, just to find they've made a series of poor character build descisions based on bad advice or lack of knowledge.

Well of course they are coming to the forums looking for advice. What you have failed to do is show flaws in character concept or design. You've simply assumed that they are there. You have spent no time thinking about how to make the concept work. And, you have spent no energy on evaluating the concept or providing proof that it will not. Like so many posters, you offer your opinion and presume that this equates to fact. Like them you are wrong.


Deep multiclass casters get a rating of RDTP from me, for "Ridiculously Difficult to Play", and i will continue to suggest new players play a pure caster, a pure melee*, or a bard.

*EDIT: By pure melee, I mean a character designed to be good at beating stuff up, not necessarily a pureclass melee. there are still several new-player-friendly melee multiclasses.

Well, I'm certain that coming from YOU that this settles the issue then. After all, everyone knows that you are the second coming and thus inherently correct.

Alright, maybe they don't know that. Or maybe it is just me. But, I require proof that something will not work -- not simple assertions.

What is the factual basis for your position that a deep multiclassed of arcane is unworkable? Or even of your prejudiced opinion that only a person with experience could hope to pull one off?

Here are my objections to the build advice that I gave:

1) THF is less effective than TWF. The character would be more powerful if it were a TWF build.
2) To qualify for TWF the build needs to have more DEX or it needs to use ranger as the warrior multiclass.
3) An end game 26 CHA is overkill on a character that will only use L3 spells. All of the build points spent on CHA could be used elsewhere to better effect.
4) Armor will increase spell failure and there are no enhancements to help. The character therefore must find armor that reduces spell failure or expect to fail when casting spells.

These are factual objections that are almost so self-evident that they do not need additional support. Most people will accept them at face value because they know that the math will prove them correct.

Let's look at some of the points I've made in the course of this discussion. I've asserted that the build will be at least as effective at hitting things as a rogue. BAB on 14/6 split -- 17/17/22/27/27. BAB on 20 rogue -- 15/15/20/25/25. The fact is that the 14/6 multiclass will hit just as easily as a rogue.

I've asserted that the build will do adequate damage. THF is not my favorite choice, see my own objections above. However, it is what OP asked for. Using a greatsword each hit will produce 2d6 damage. Note that this is not a greensteal sword or anything special, just an ordinary greatsword. Not calculating any special damage from elemental or alignment effects and just taking into account a 32 STR the average damage per hit is 7 + 22 = 29. This is precisely 2 points of damage less than a fighter with 18 STR and the same follow-on increases and 4 points less than a fighter with 18 STR that consumes a +3 tome. In other words, the damage difference is negligible -- particularly when elemental and alignment bonuses, feats and enhancements are figured in.

Let's consider enhancements and feat selections. I recommended the entire fighter line of THF feats plus all applicable enhancements. I subsequently recommended Kensai enhancements. Only Kensai III and Greatsword Specializaton II will not be available to a L14 fighter. That is a whopping 1 point difference in combat feat DCs and 1 point difference in damage.

Now, we have established that the build hits as well as a rogue. Anyone here suggesting L20 rogues should not be in a group?

We have established that the build hits nearly as hard as it would were STR at 18 and full Kensai and Specialization enhancements taken. Anyone here refusing to take THF Kensai fighters?

The FACTS are that the build can have every other STR boost that we'd apply to any fighter and so it is only lacking in hitting power if we conceed that every other THF build lacks in hitting power. This happens to be my personal opinion and the basis for my preference for TWF. But, the evidence is that the damage difference is not enough to prevent people from playing THF builds.

Objections that the character won't perform at end-game are untrue because they are not supported by the facts. If you believe such objections are in fact valid then provide facts to support your POV. I don't think you can do that. But, feel free to try.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 12:42 AM
Seriously, do you expect me to believe that TWF focused 6-th level human sorcerer with neither self-heal nor decent AC nor croud control spells will be fine all by himself?

I'm just curious. Why does such a build need to be fine all by itself? Are you suggesting that any L6 sorcerer is fine all by itself?

You see, I could suggest spells that would make this the case. I could recommend a charm based character. And, as a L6 sorcerer it would be fine all by itself -- as fine as any L6 arcane will be.

But, that is ignoring the long-term build.

I would venture to say that arcanes are considered the most difficult classes to solo with at early levels because they lack any real spell power. This can be overcome by spell selection but most people simply group until Wall of Fire. At that point the arcanes become serious threats.

I see nothing in the L6 build recommendation to suggest that the OP will need to quest alone. To the contrary, the spell selection provides several useful buffs (blur, jump, nightshield) and the all important haste that will suffice.


Or is he going to improve later?

No, actually the build will be more challenging to play in levels 7-12 when it has a bit of mixed identity. This is a legitimate objection to my earlier advice. In retrospect I would suggest that OP run primarily as a fighter and fit in sorcerer every third or fourth level. He can rationalize it as coming to terms with the Force and learning how to use it.

The advantage to my initial advice and leveling approach is that it permits the OP to shift gears and remain on the sorcerer path should he decide that he wants more arcane (I mean Force) power.

However, at end with the 14/6 split the build will be just fine. See my earlier post regarding to hit and damage information.


Are you implying that people won't try to help you by pointing out low synergy of those two classes or by suggesting a reroll?

I'm not implying anything. I'm saying very clearly that such comments are not helpful because they are opinion and not fact based. There is very low synergy. But that does not translate into a need for rerolling. What it translates to is a need to understand the limitations and to adjust stats and goals to accommodate those limitations.

In this case the spell level will never be high and sticking spells at high end will not happen. Thus spell selection reflects that. My previous post also addresses spell failure concerns. Again, spell selection reflects that. For example, Shield has no arcane or armor spell failure. Knowing that others will means needing to plan for armor to reduce this impact.

This is why your advice is bad. It isn't based on facts or information. It is based on opinion and bias. Now, it is a fact that opinionated and biased people play DDO. But just because DDO is occassionally populated by jerks is no reason not to build a particular character.

When you present facts to support your objections then you will benefit the OP and contribute to the decision process.

Brennie
10-30-2009, 03:48 AM
Well, I'm certain that coming from YOU that this settles the issue then. After all, everyone knows that you are the second coming and thus inherently correct.

This is all i really need to quote. I was attempting to offer advice to help a new player. You are obviously here to stir muck and start arguments.

I offered opinion, and specifically used words to point out that it was my opinion. And yet you attack me for giving an opinion. Wonderful.

As for me not offering advice per the outlined request of the OP, please referr back to page one where i do exactly that, in quite some detail, with various themed options.

As for now, i do not want to participate in a bickering argument in what is supposed to be a forum for guidance and advice, so i shall how the OP got want he was looking for and be done here.

Battleworm
10-30-2009, 08:53 AM
This is all i really need to quote. I was attempting to offer advice to help a new player. You are obviously here to stir muck and start arguments.

I offered opinion, and specifically used words to point out that it was my opinion. And yet you attack me for giving an opinion. Wonderful.

As for me not offering advice per the outlined request of the OP, please referr back to page one where i do exactly that, in quite some detail, with various themed options.

As for now, i do not want to participate in a bickering argument in what is supposed to be a forum for guidance and advice, so i shall how the OP got want he was looking for and be done here.


He thinks so much of his opinion,he writes wall of texts running in circles,he's just giving His SO important opinion.Cause you knwo we care about the silliness he's saying trying to pretend he actually has a clue.Wizard fighter for the win!Therigar,ever thought the people that disagree with you might once in a while be right?although you do sound like someone that just likes to hear himself talk and feels important when you do.You're not special,important and your opinion to new players is bad.Just like telling ANYONE 6 con is ok.That's just ********.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 09:15 AM
This is all i really need to quote. I was attempting to offer advice to help a new player. You are obviously here to stir muck and start arguments.

I am not stirring muck and I am not starting arguments. I am pointing out that your advice is opinionated and not factually correct.


I offered opinion, and specifically used words to point out that it was my opinion. And yet you attack me for giving an opinion. Wonderful.

I am not attacking you. I am disagreeing with you. I am supporting my disagreement by showing that your advice is opinion that has no factual basis. Thus your opinion is invalid. That it remains your opinion is not the issue. The issue is that your advice is wrong because it is based on bias and misunderstanding of the facts.


As for me not offering advice per the outlined request of the OP, please referr back to page one where i do exactly that, in quite some detail, with various themed options.

Yes, I saw your post. It came immediately after I questioned the Chaotic Neutral alignment that OP was planning. Here is what you wrote.


I would think Sith would be Lawful Evil, if anything. Heck, they even have their own "code"!

To OP: If you want to be a cool Sith AND useful in DDO terms, think about modeling yourself after the Emperor. If you've played any of the KOTOR games, he would be more of a Consular type, AKA pureclass sorceror. And of course, start with 18 Charisma, cause that guy ran the frikkin Empire for decades using only his charm to keep his alter ego hidden :P

Shocking Grasp is probably the most "Force Lightning"-ish spell. At higher levels you can get Electric Loop, Ball Lightning, Lightning Bolt, and Chain Lightning (which is currently bugged/broken).

Chaotic Neutral will let you weild Anarchic and Tue Chaos weapons, which will give you your cool red lightsabery feel. I'd recommend longsword or rapier for pure asthetics (No Jedi/Sith use long two-handed geat-lightsabers! C'mon now!). Neutral will let you use "taint of evil" items, which is very sithlike. True Neutral is superior from an Optimzer standpoint, but Chaotic Neutral won't hurt you.

You will not be proficienct with these weapons (but you can slap on a Masters Touch spell, how sith sounding is that ^_^) and then go to town. Tensers Transformation in later levels will also help you out in the melee department, but remember that the Emperor controlled the flow of battle from the back lines whenever possible.

Hold Person/Hold Monster can fill the "Force Choke" feel, and Charm Person/Dominate person/Charm Monster can fill the jedi Mind Trick role. Phantasmal Killer and Finger of Death can even give the "I'm so evil, i look at you and you die" feel. Several other spells also have a very Jedi-ish feel, like Haste (Jedi are fast!) Jump (you saw Yoda!), Blur (If you move fast enough, people strike where you were, not where you are), Displacement (same), Sheild/Nightsheild (Deflecting blaster bolts! Er... magic missles!) and things of that nature. Even Scorching Ray or Magic Missle can help you feel like you just whipped out a blaster! Pew Pew Pew!

I do emplore you to *not* try to multiclass Fighter with Sorceror. Concept characters are awesome and all, but it simply does not fit well into the DDO mechanics. Your melee and spell damage, armor class, hitpoints, ability to hit, etc, will all suffer. It is not a gentle way to help ease yourself into the game. Its actually a quick way to get frusterated and burnt out on the DDO experience all together. And lastly, if yuo ever decide to stray away from concept character and into a more optimized role, you can always change feats, spells, and enhancements over time, for in-game currency. You cannot change Class Levels, Alightment, Skills or starting stats without using the reincarnation system (Which costs Turbine Points AKA real world money).

A good post until your last paragraph. Note that I did not bother to respond. You even repeated the core of your last paragraph in this post, also from page 1:


This will be a a very underwhelming character.

For survivability, either yuo are wearing amror and sheilds, and thus making it difficult to cast, or you're wearing robes and using spells, in which case the fighter levels are entirely unnecessary to your survivability.

You will not be "Dangerous" with this build. You will lack any combat spells with decent punch as you cannot cast anything higher than level 3, you will have very little SP to use said spells, you will lack the better enhancements to make them really sting, you will not be using the correct gear to make them sting even more (unless you are hotswapping weapons between swings), and anything with a save *will* be saved against. Anything that allows spell resistence will be resisted, though that applies less to damage spells.

Likewise, your melee abilities will be hurting. You will have subpar hitpoints for 7 levels (Gaining 28 hitpoints instead of 70!), you will either sacrifice AC for robes, or risk high spell failure, you will start with low strength and have to decide whether to increase strength or charisma at level ups, you will lack Kensai 3 and the fighter capstone, and will have to split Enhancements, feats, and skills between two classes that have no complimenary aspects.

DDO is *NOT* like most other MMOs. Most other MMOs have pre-built classes that you can fiddle with to make them optimized awesome, or slightly less than perfect. most of these "optimizations" matter very little, and are less important than group makeup or gear. Either way, you can still do fine with the content provided.

DDO hands you a fairly open multiclass and character building system that is very easy to screw up in, ultimately creating a character who is not just "Suboptimal" but is truely a liability. Deep multiclassing of a caster without intimate knowledge of the game is one of the easiest ways to achieve that.

Again, I strongly strongly suggest that this not be your first attempt at a character. Theme characters are entirely viable, as long as you are willing to be open about the possibilities of the theme. Sorcerors make great Sith Overlords (C'mon, you can charm person from level 1!). Chaotic monk/other melee class combos could let you whip out chaotic/anarchic red glowy weapons, while jumping around, ebing speedy, and even having a few "Magic-like" effects (Monks can use lightning too!), all while still being a perfectly viable character who resembles a Sith Maurader (Borrowing from KOTOR again). Heck, even a straight Rogue can take the Assassin path with a couple rapiers or shortswords, and with Evasion and a few other rogue tricks, it totally fits the theme.

Note that I did not reply to that post either.

Why? Why would I not bother to reply to two posts that I so clearly disagree with? If my purpose were only to argue wouldn't I have jumped on them -- even though it would serve no real purpose and would only cause me to repeat what I've posted to others?

You might want to work that out.

But, then you shift gears. You post this:


The debate about whether builds have to be cookie cutter min-maxed or whether free-range idea-making of random build ideas is viable is *COMPLETELY* off base in this discussion.

This post is wrong. So, I answered it in detail. That is not stirring up muck. It is not picking an argument. It is demonstrating how opinion is meaningless in light of facts.

Like many others who have posted here and to whom I have responded in various threads on the forums your response to facts is to fix blame on me and refuse to debate. That is your right. But, IMO, it demonstrates that your POV is without any basis other than ignorance and bias.

You have made assertions. You have made essentially the same assertions not once but three times. I challenge you to demonstrate that the assertions are valid. I provide facts to show they are not. I invite you to counter my facts with your own to demonstrate that I am wrong. You respond with:


As for now, i do not want to participate in a bickering argument in what is supposed to be a forum for guidance and advice, so i shall how the OP got want he was looking for and be done here.

Unfortunately, that is how others respond when I make the same type of challenge.

You do not need to pardon me, but I'm sure other readers will, when I point out that this casts serious doubts on the validity of your opinions. I do not know which of these you find more compelling:

A) No factual support leading to an opinion
B) Factual support leading to an opinion

My belief is that the second is always more compelling. On that basis I conclude that OP's initial request is not only buildable (most things are buildable in DDO) but also playable and that objections to a 14/6 class split are unmerited bias.

OP's concern should be whether the bias is so pervasive that it overrides good sense and becomes threatening to the character's success based not on the character's abilities but on the other player's prejudices. I would equate it to real life situations when people of different racial, ethnic or social backgrounds choose to visit particular neighborhoods. They ought to be allowed and the law supports them, but good sense dictates that it isn't usually a good idea regardless of right and wrong.

I don't think DDO should be that way. I don't think our gaming perspective should be so focused on character utility. When it is then the only answer is to provide facts showing that oddly designed characters surrender minimal utility in exchange for the flavor.

That is the case with a 14/6 fighter/sorcerer. It is being opposed because it does not fit people's biased view. Posters consistently show an inability to look beyond the surface (skin color, gender, race, religion, etc. in RL) to the abilities (the person underneath it all).

If it were unworkable I would post that. If it would be so badly damaged that it could not function I would concur. Such is not the case. To the contrary, the evidence is that it will hit at least as well as a L20 rogue (I know there isn't a lot of rogue love, but who will suggest that a L20 rogue should not be in end-game groups) and within 5 points of damage per hit of a L20 fighter (which pure class people advocate in preference to the multiclass).

You can quit the discussion. You can restate your unsupportable opinion. Or you can show how my facts are in error.

Doing either of the first two does nothing to help the OP or any other reader of this, or any similar, thread.

Battleworm
10-30-2009, 09:18 AM
I am not stirring muck and I am not starting arguments. I am pointing out that your advice is opinionated and not factually correct.



I am not attacking you. I am disagreeing with you. I am supporting my disagreement by showing that your advice is opinion that has no factual basis. Thus your opinion is invalid. That it remains your opinion is not the issue. The issue is that your advice is wrong because it is based on bias and misunderstanding of the facts.



Yes, I saw your post. It came immediately after I questioned the Chaotic Neutral alignment that OP was planning. Here is what you wrote.



A good post until your last paragraph. Note that I did not bother to respond. You even repeated the core of your last paragraph in this post, also from page 1:



Note that I did not reply to that post either.

Why? Why would I not bother to reply to two posts that I so clearly disagree with? If my purpose were only to argue wouldn't I have jumped on them -- even though it would serve no real purpose and would only cause me to repeat what I've posted to others?

You might want to work that out.

But, then you shift gears. You post this:



This post is wrong. So, I answered it in detail. That is not stirring up muck. It is not picking an argument. It is demonstrating how opinion is meaningless in light of facts.

Like many others who have posted here and to whom I have responded in various threads on the forums your response to facts is to fix blame on me and refuse to debate. That is your right. But, IMO, it demonstrates that your POV is without any basis other than ignorance and bias.

You have made assertions. You have made essentially the same assertions not once but three times. I challenge you to demonstrate that the assertions are valid. I provide facts to show they are not. I invite you to counter my facts with your own to demonstrate that I am wrong. You respond with:



Unfortunately, that is how others respond when I make the same type of challenge.

You do not need to pardon me, but I'm sure other readers will, when I point out that this casts serious doubts on the validity of your opinions. I do not know which of these you find more compelling:

A) No factual support leading to an opinion
B) Factual support leading to an opinion

My belief is that the second is always more compelling. On that basis I conclude that OP's initial request is not only buildable (most things are buildable in DDO) but also playable and that objections to a 14/6 class split are unmerited bias.

OP's concern should be whether the bias is so pervasive that it overrides good sense and becomes threatening to the character's success based not on the character's abilities but on the other player's prejudices. I would equate it to real life situations when people of different racial, ethnic or social backgrounds choose to visit particular neighborhoods. They ought to be allowed and the law supports them, but good sense dictates that it isn't usually a good idea regardless of right and wrong.

I don't think DDO should be that way. I don't think our gaming perspective should be so focused on character utility. When it is then the only answer is to provide facts showing that oddly designed characters surrender minimal utility in exchange for the flavor.

That is the case with a 14/6 fighter/sorcerer. It is being opposed because it does not fit people's biased view. Posters consistently show an inability to look beyond the surface (skin color, gender, race, religion, etc. in RL) to the abilities (the person underneath it all).

If it were unworkable I would post that. If it would be so badly damaged that it could not function I would concur. Such is not the case. To the contrary, the evidence is that it will hit at least as well as a L20 rogue (I know there isn't a lot of rogue love, but who will suggest that a L20 rogue should not be in end-game groups) and within 5 points of damage per hit of a L20 fighter (which pure class people advocate in preference to the multiclass).

You can quit the discussion. You can restate your unsupportable opinion. Or you can show how my facts are in error.

Doing either of the first two does nothing to help the OP or any other reader of this, or any similar, thread.



/faceplant.This thread should just be locked as one person tries to drown every other that show reasons by the dozen why this build and every advice this guy gives is straight up garbage.Why don't you list your toons and server oh mighty one so we can know you a bit better and make fun of your build in quest>?

Therigar
10-30-2009, 09:26 AM
He thinks so much of his opinion,he writes wall of texts running in circles,he's just giving His SO important opinion.Cause you knwo we care about the silliness he's saying trying to pretend he actually has a clue.Wizard fighter for the win!Therigar,ever thought the people that disagree with you might once in a while be right?although you do sound like someone that just likes to hear himself talk and feels important when you do.You're not special,important and your opinion to new players is bad.Just like telling ANYONE 6 con is ok.That's just ********.

:D

Here is my challenge Battleworm, instead of providing yet more opinion provide facts.

The CON thread is a different one from this, although it is worth reading. Let's stick to this thread.

Help me if I misunderstand.

You: 14/6 fighter/sorcerer will never group, is totally gimped, will need a reroll, may cause you to quit DDO -- it is that bad.

Me: 14/6 fighter/sorcerer is at least equal to a L20 rogue in hitting ability and just less than a L20 fighter using the same THF and Kensai feat/enhancement lines. Thus it is not useless or gimped and any grouping problems are the result of player bias. There is no need to reroll and the idea it will cause you to quit DDO is without merit.

Now, I'm pretty sure I've got the gist of the discussion correct. I see opinion and bias in your POV whereas mine is based on demonstrable facts.

If this were a high school or college debate I know how the judges would rule. But, this is the court of public opinion. If people refuse to accept facts and insist on believing their prejudices then you are right and I am wrong.

I would hope that the DDO community is able to distinguish between bias and facts. The replies of three or four posters to this thread show that I may be wrong.

Battleworm
10-30-2009, 09:30 AM
:D

Here is my challenge Battleworm, instead of providing yet more opinion provide facts.

The CON thread is a different one from this, although it is worth reading. Let's stick to this thread.

Help me if I misunderstand.

You: 14/6 fighter/sorcerer will never group, is totally gimped, will need a reroll, may cause you to quit DDO -- it is that bad.

Me: 14/6 fighter/sorcerer is at least equal to a L20 rogue in hitting ability and just less than a L20 fighter using the same THF and Kensai feat/enhancement lines. Thus it is not useless or gimped and any grouping problems are the result of player bias. There is no need to reroll and the idea it will cause you to quit DDO is without merit.

Now, I'm pretty sure I've got the gist of the discussion correct. I see opinion and bias in your POV whereas mine is based on demonstrable facts.

If this were a high school or college debate I know how the judges would rule. But, this is the court of public opinion. If people refuse to accept facts and insist on believing their prejudices then you are right and I am wrong.

I would hope that the DDO community is able to distinguish between bias and facts. The replies of three or four posters to this thread show that I may be wrong.



Are you done spreading lies?List your toons if you have any guts and where you play I am Battleworm and Nightmare on cannith.Who are you?Your opinion is yours but is still a garbage opinion.Telling a new player to make a less than ideal build with ABSOLUTELY no synergy is a great idea...man don't bother responding to me at all you're just a lost cause.And yeah the 6 con thread is another one but it was to show how smart you are.Any toon with 6 con = Constantly dead end-game.And don't you worry,i have no problems finding groups cause you know,I know how to make a good character.


Also you think you're very smart and eloquent but you don't impress me at all.You base your opinion on nothing,i don't need nothing to prove you wrong,been playing and kicking these builds from my groups for 3 years.Need more?Now list your toons unless you are some coward.Be a man stand by your word.

Battleworm
10-30-2009, 10:09 AM
Internet anonymity to spread lies,what a surprise!

Therigar
10-30-2009, 10:31 AM
I just hate things like this: Present facts --get told facts don't matter, ask for factual rebuttals -- get told how stupid I am, restate the desire to discuss facts -- get asked for my characters so that people can avoid me.

Here are my current builds, all on Cannith:

Neebelnox Fooselbaum -- current 12 cleric/3 paladin/2 monk, planned 15 cleric/3 paladin/2 monk, reincarnating as a 15 cleric/3 paladin/2 monk with additional STR based on what I've learned from the build.
Yucheng of the Shadows -- current 1 bard/1 fighter/4 rogue, planned 1 bard/1 fighter/18 rogue, reincarnating as 1 monk/1 fighter/18 rogue (currently my haggle character to be replaced by Basso Profundo -- see further down).
Ian Royce McAlyster -- current 2 paladin, planned 20 paladin.

And here are my previous characters on Ghallanda:

Leyoni the Fey -- L16 sorcerer
Therindal Durinson -- Barbarian 8/Fighter 7/Ranger 2
Cratesmasher Slayer of Clay Jars -- Ranger 12/Monk 2/Rogue 2

I stopped playing on Ghallanda when Cannith was made live in order to grab a number of character names that I was not able to get on Ghallanda.

Future characters coming to Cannith:

Alaric Rhys Morgan -- planned Ranger 20
Basso Profundo -- planned Bard 20
Caleb ben Ruben -- planned Fighter 20
Certified Used Parts -- planned Wizard 18/Rogue 2
Cratesmasher Slayer of Clay Jars -- planned Ranger 19/Monk 1
Ezra Grey -- planned Favored Soul 20 reincarnating as Paladin 20 reincarnating as Wizard 20
Farfindal Durinson -- planned Cleric 20
Leyoni the Fey -- planned Sorcerer 18/Monk 2
Loren ben Uller -- planned Fighter 20
Seven of Many -- planned Rogue 19/Wizard 1
Therigar Durinson -- planned Fighter 20
Therindal Durinson -- planned Ranger 19/Monk 1

I have one more character slot currently held by Nehemiah Hacaliah's Son. I have not decided on the build for that slot or even if that will be the final name.

But, you've plenty of characters to avoid. :)

Now that I've manned up how about you providing some factual evidence to support your contention that the 14/6 build cannot work?

Somehow I don't think that will be forthcoming. ;)

Battleworm
10-30-2009, 10:37 AM
I just hate things like this: Present facts --get told facts don't matter, ask for factual rebuttals -- get told how stupid I am, restate the desire to discuss facts -- get asked for my characters so that people can avoid me.

Here are my current builds, all on Cannith:

Neebelnox Fooselbaum -- current 12 cleric/3 paladin/2 monk, planned 15 cleric/3 paladin/2 monk, reincarnating as a 15 cleric/3 paladin/2 monk with additional STR based on what I've learned from the build.
Yucheng of the Shadows -- current 1 bard/1 fighter/4 rogue, planned 1 bard/1 fighter/18 rogue, reincarnating as 1 monk/1 fighter/18 rogue (currently my haggle character to be replaced by Basso Profundo -- see further down).
Ian Royce McAlyster -- current 2 paladin, planned 20 paladin.

And here are my previous characters on Ghallanda:

Leyoni the Fey -- L16 sorcerer
Therindal Durinson -- Barbarian 8/Fighter 7/Ranger 2
Cratesmasher Slayer of Clay Jars -- Ranger 12/Monk 2/Rogue 2

I stopped playing on Ghallanda when Cannith was made live in order to grab a number of character names that I was not able to get on Ghallanda.

Future characters coming to Cannith:

Alaric Rhys Morgan -- planned Ranger 20
Basso Profundo -- planned Bard 20
Caleb ben Ruben -- planned Fighter 20
Certified Used Parts -- planned Wizard 18/Rogue 2
Cratesmasher Slayer of Clay Jars -- planned Ranger 19/Monk 1
Ezra Grey -- planned Favored Soul 20 reincarnating as Paladin 20 reincarnating as Wizard 20
Farfindal Durinson -- planned Cleric 20
Leyoni the Fey -- planned Sorcerer 18/Monk 2
Loren ben Uller -- planned Fighter 20
Seven of Many -- planned Rogue 19/Wizard 1
Therigar Durinson -- planned Fighter 20
Therindal Durinson -- planned Ranger 19/Monk 1

I have one more character slot currently held by Nehemiah Hacaliah's Son. I have not decided on the build for that slot or even if that will be the final name.

But, you've plenty of characters to avoid. :)

Now that I've manned up how about you providing some factual evidence to support your contention that the 14/6 build cannot work?

Somehow I don't think that will be forthcoming. ;)

Perfect,thanks a lot.We're one of the very few cannith end game raiding guilds,so thanks.I especially enjoyed seeing you backpedal in the rogue thread.That was fun.Shows how much you know,right?

And i didn't call you stupid,I know forum rules.Might have implied it but that's for the reader to decide.Anyways thanks for all the great build advice,I will follow your advice and roll out a few gimps - just for fun.

Couldn't help but notice you have none of those uber fighter - wizard builds how strange right since it's so gooood?

Therigar
10-30-2009, 10:56 AM
Are you done spreading lies?List your toons if you have any guts and where you play I am Battleworm and Nightmare on cannith.Who are you?Your opinion is yours but is still a garbage opinion.Telling a new player to make a less than ideal build with ABSOLUTELY no synergy is a great idea...man don't bother responding to me at all you're just a lost cause.And yeah the 6 con thread is another one but it was to show how smart you are.Any toon with 6 con = Constantly dead end-game.And don't you worry,i have no problems finding groups cause you know,I know how to make a good character.


Also you think you're very smart and eloquent but you don't impress me at all.You base your opinion on nothing,i don't need nothing to prove you wrong,been playing and kicking these builds from my groups for 3 years.Need more?Now list your toons unless you are some coward.Be a man stand by your word.


Internet anonymity to spread lies,what a surprise!

You know, I understand it isn't personal, but it is sure starting to sound that way. I'm more than a little confused about the last post. Does anyone know who you are in RL or what your background and qualifications are?

I appreciate that you have been kicking these toons for three years. That is just three years of you acting based on opinion and prejudice rather than on build facts.

I appreciate that you do not need anything to prove me wrong -- that the force of your opinion is sufficient in your mind. That does nothing to change that simple math shows that I am correct.

I understand posters who need to be right regardless of what is factual. And, I understand that they will not alter their points of view in light of what is fact.

I post not to convince you but to convince others who reads these forums with an eye to understanding what really goes on.

You should really look again at the 6 CON thread. You'll see that I posted initially a way for OP to boost CON without rerolling while striking a balance between the value of higher CON and the value of using build points elsewhere. The immediate response was "good post." Unless something has changed this morning there are no responses saying "bad post."

Because of your comment in this thread I went back to the CON thread and posted additional information. You really should read that before making your comments here.

Now, I don't know your characters on Cannith. I don't know who any of your characters are on any other server. I posted all of mine. You can search the forums for them and for my previous posting ID of Leyoni (and for a very short span Cratesmasher). You will find out that I have had some very unusual build ideas and that I've successfully developed some of them (Cratesmasher my 6 STR warforged ranger). I've debated with better know forum posters than you -- better known not only on the forums but also on their servers.

I've been shown wrong on many occassions by factual evidence. And, I've had reluctant acceptance of my points of view just as often. Perhaps no build demonstrates this more than Cratesmasher where there was "given your experience you can make this build work" and my "yes, but the others are right 6 STR is probably a mistake."

Would a sorcerer 20 fit the Sith concept? Yes. Does that marry up with OP's posted desire? Not really.

Would a fighter 20 have advantages over a fighter 14? Yes. Does that prevent the fighter 14 from being useful in a group? Not really.

Does fighter 14 fit the Sith concept? Yes. Does that marry up with OP's posted desire? Yes. Can stat distributions and spell selections be structured in such a way as to mitigate the differences between fighter 20 and fighter 14? IMO I've shown that it can.

Now, I've answered your request for my character list. I'll point out that you have still failed to answer my request for facts to show my POV on the 14/6 build is wrong.

But, because this is growing close to personal how about we do this. List who your alts during those 3 years of play are and which servers they are on. That way your server buddies can chime in on how great a player you were and on how much your opinion is to be valued.

As I say, I've no idea who your characters on Cannith are. I've not yet run across them.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 11:13 AM
Perfect,thanks a lot.We're one of the very few cannith end game raiding guilds,so thanks.I especially enjoyed seeing you backpedal in the rogue thread.That was fun.Shows how much you know,right?

And i didn't call you stupid,I know forum rules.Might have implied it but that's for the reader to decide.Anyways thanks for all the great build advice,I will follow your advice and roll out a few gimps - just for fun.

Couldn't help but notice you have none of those uber fighter - wizard builds how strange right since it's so gooood?

This is just silly. Guild name please?

Don't get the uber fighter comment. I have a pretty uber fighter over on Ghallanda that I'm not playing any longer. Anyone can build one.

Every character I have listed is a PnP character dating back to the late 70's early 80's. I don't play often enough to run all of them to level cap and can't play all simultaneously in any case.

Cannith was a new server. I started a warforged, Seven, to unlock Drow. I ran a Drow battlecleric to unlock 1750 favor. I built a Drow haggle character with some rogue utility to keep the battlecleric funded. I'll build the other characters once the ones I have now hit L20 and cap.

Here's the thing. I listed 3 characters level capped at DDO:EU release from Ghallanda. I even listed my forum identity used over the last couple of years (having had, at one point, 5 different accounts -- 4 paid and 1 recent F2P).

I am pretty well known. My build ideas are pretty well known. And, my build ideas are defensible based on the initial concept.

Now, I've answered your manhood challenge. Are you able to answer mine? If not then we will all know which of us is a man and which is not. Not that it is about male or female -- but it is about courage and integrity.

You challenged mine and I answered you. Do you have the courage and integrity to answer me?

Show with facts how a 14/6 fighter/sorcerer using the build concept I provided on P1 of this thread is grossly inferior to a 20 fighter and explain to us how that justifies your opinion that such builds should be denied groups.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 11:48 AM
I especially enjoyed seeing you backpedal in the rogue thread.That was fun.Shows how much you know,right?

I did not backpedal.

Here were my points:

1. CON or elsewhere -- Choice of where to put build points is dependent on what you plan for the character. In a duo it may be reasonable to put the build points elsewhere because of a desire to have additional skills to support your partner.

2. Rerolling isn't the only answer -- Posters suggest minimum +6 build points into CON. Where do those come from? Will you just be replacing those stat points when you level up? If so then instead of rerolling and taking lower stats to boost CON from the start you may want to increase CON with your stat increases. The net result is nearly the same.

3. INT for CON with a reroll may not be best choice -- INT is ultimately more important to a rogue than DEX is. On a character that gets DEX enhancements it might be better to leave INT alone and to reduce DEX.

Now, you are pulling this thread over to our discussion here and insulting the advice. But like in this thread you offer nothing to show that I am in error.

Let's look at what I actually wrote:


In spite of what others may post, nothing in this game demands a particular stat level in order to create a successful character. There are no magic numbers that separate characters that can survive to level cap from those that cannot.

What does exist is consequences for each decision that a player makes in character creation. Let's take as an example the advice to always raise CON using the 1 point stat increments (12 for elves, 14 for most others, 16 for some). On the surface that is good build advice and my purpose is not to knock the advice.

My purpose is to discuss the consequences of making a different choice.

That is what I wrote about. I did not recommend for or against. I discussed what the different choices would mean in terms of consequences to the character.

My second post was driven by your false accusations in this thread but also directed specifically at one element from my initial post -- the value of +60 HP.

There I went into much greater detail concerning build ideas including detailing why OP's initial stat distribution was sub-optimal.

That is not backtracking. As I initially stated, every decision in building a character has consequences.

That applies to the build I recommended in this thread as well. One consequence is that bigots will deny the build an opportunity to play. You have amply proven this point.

I believe, however, that the number of bigots on the servers is smaller than the number of new players that will be happy to have the build along. I believe that the build can work.

It isn't what I would choose (I listed my objections, particularly the choice of THF over TWF). But, those are individual choices and not build killers.

Battleworm
10-30-2009, 11:51 AM
This is just silly. Guild name please?

Don't get the uber fighter comment. I have a pretty uber fighter over on Ghallanda that I'm not playing any longer. Anyone can build one.

Every character I have listed is a PnP character dating back to the late 70's early 80's. I don't play often enough to run all of them to level cap and can't play all simultaneously in any case.

Cannith was a new server. I started a warforged, Seven, to unlock Drow. I ran a Drow battlecleric to unlock 1750 favor. I built a Drow haggle character with some rogue utility to keep the battlecleric funded. I'll build the other characters once the ones I have now hit L20 and cap.

Here's the thing. I listed 3 characters level capped at DDO:EU release from Ghallanda. I even listed my forum identity used over the last couple of years (having had, at one point, 5 different accounts -- 4 paid and 1 recent F2P).

I am pretty well known. My build ideas are pretty well known. And, my build ideas are defensible based on the initial concept.

Now, I've answered your manhood challenge. Are you able to answer mine? If not then we will all know which of us is a man and which is not. Not that it is about male or female -- but it is about courage and integrity.

You challenged mine and I answered you. Do you have the courage and integrity to answer me?

Show with facts how a 14/6 fighter/sorcerer using the build concept I provided on P1 of this thread is grossly inferior to a 20 fighter and explain to us how that justifies your opinion that such builds should be denied groups.

there is no reason at all to explain anything to you.If you've been playing that long you should really have a clue at this point.my guild is loot.

Let's take that awesome build you are recommending to a brand new player (and pretending it's not ***t) what would i bring this build for?No cc,No buffs (we'd get uhm you know a real arcane caster for that) DPS?We'd take an actual DPS class for that you know.What's he good for as a wiz fighter multiclass?Can he umd?Can he intim?What would his amazing stats be?Keep being stubborn and trying to make yourself like someone new players could ask advice.Personnally I would take all your walls of useless text and toss them in the can.Cause we all know ***t goes in the can right?

Battleworm
10-30-2009, 11:55 AM
I did not backpedal.

Here were my points:

1. CON or elsewhere -- Choice of where to put build points is dependent on what you plan for the character. In a duo it may be reasonable to put the build points elsewhere because of a desire to have additional skills to support your partner.

2. Rerolling isn't the only answer -- Posters suggest minimum +6 build points into CON. Where do those come from? Will you just be replacing those stat points when you level up? If so then instead of rerolling and taking lower stats to boost CON from the start you may want to increase CON with your stat increases. The net result is nearly the same.

3. INT for CON with a reroll may not be best choice -- INT is ultimately more important to a rogue than DEX is. On a character that gets DEX enhancements it might be better to leave INT alone and to reduce DEX.

Now, you are pulling this thread over to our discussion here and insulting the advice. But like in this thread you offer nothing to show that I am in error.

Let's look at what I actually wrote:



That is what I wrote about. I did not recommend for or against. I discussed what the different choices would mean in terms of consequences to the character.

My second post was driven by your false accusations in this thread but also directed specifically at one element from my initial post -- the value of +60 HP.

There I went into much greater detail concerning build ideas including detailing why OP's initial stat distribution was sub-optimal.

That is not backtracking. As I initially stated, every decision in building a character has consequences.

That applies to the build I recommended in this thread as well. One consequence is that bigots will deny the build an opportunity to play. You have amply proven this point.

I believe, however, that the number of bigots on the servers is smaller than the number of new players that will be happy to have the build along. I believe that the build can work.

It isn't what I would choose (I listed my objections, particularly the choice of THF over TWF). But, those are individual choices and not build killers.

No matter what you try to say (once again with useless walls of text) telling ANYONE to go ahead with a 6 con character ( which you did) is just the smartest thing to do ever.A rogue with 6 con now that sure rocks dont it?I mean one hit by an orthon,devil,archer,kobold...yup that's amazing.Done with you as prolly a lot of peeps have you on ignore by this point,you just don't know when to stop so i'll just ignore all the nonsical terrible advice you are giving new players.Can you agree to that much? a mix of fighter wizard for a new player is a terrible idea?nah,not even that right?Get lost done with you and your nonsense.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 12:30 PM
my guild is loot.

Is that this loot (http://my.ddo.com/guild-cannith-loot/) with 0 members or this Loot (http://my.ddo.com/guild-cannith-loot/) also with 0 members?

Just wondering, after all you are one of the Cannith raid group guilds right? :D

Quintun
10-30-2009, 12:31 PM
:D

Here is my challenge Battleworm, instead of providing yet more opinion provide facts.

The CON thread is a different one from this, although it is worth reading. Let's stick to this thread.

Help me if I misunderstand.

You: 14/6 fighter/sorcerer will never group, is totally gimped, will need a reroll, may cause you to quit DDO -- it is that bad.

Me: 14/6 fighter/sorcerer is at least equal to a L20 rogue in hitting ability and just less than a L20 fighter using the same THF and Kensai feat/enhancement lines. Thus it is not useless or gimped and any grouping problems are the result of player bias. There is no need to reroll and the idea it will cause you to quit DDO is without merit.

Now, I'm pretty sure I've got the gist of the discussion correct. I see opinion and bias in your POV whereas mine is based on demonstrable facts.

If this were a high school or college debate I know how the judges would rule. But, this is the court of public opinion. If people refuse to accept facts and insist on believing their prejudices then you are right and I am wrong.

I would hope that the DDO community is able to distinguish between bias and facts. The replies of three or four posters to this thread show that I may be wrong.

Lets make sure we ignore the fact a L20 rogue will be doing a ton of backstab the 14/6 fighter sorc will not.

You think too much of yourself, fact is you ignore so much when it comes to enhancements and reality that proving you wrong is done by your own posts.

14/6 sorc fighter is a level 14 fighter at end game who can cast gimpy haste. I am sure he will be a wanted member of all raids.

Battleworm
10-30-2009, 12:37 PM
Is that this loot (http://my.ddo.com/guild-cannith-loot/) with 0 members or this Loot (http://my.ddo.com/guild-cannith-loot/) also with 0 members?

Just wondering, after all you are one of the Cannith raid group guilds right? :D

We know my.ddo.com is super reliable right?

No,in fact we don't exist.

The smartest ones rely on myddo.com entirely.Thanks for helping me peg you.

/throw bone - go get it boy

Quintun
10-30-2009, 12:54 PM
We know my.ddo.com is super reliable right?

No,in fact we don't exist.

The smartest ones rely on myddo.com entirely.Thanks for helping me peg you.

/throw bone - go get it boy

You were expecting something different? Look up Therigar. It shows 2 character attached to his name. I kind of figured MyDDO was broken right there.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 01:03 PM
Lets make sure we ignore the fact a L20 rogue will be doing a ton of backstab the 14/6 fighter sorc will not.

You think too much of yourself, fact is you ignore so much when it comes to enhancements and reality that proving you wrong is done by your own posts.

14/6 sorc fighter is a level 14 fighter at end game who can cast gimpy haste. I am sure he will be a wanted member of all raids.

Quintun, I'd have thought you'd learned a bit more by now. :)

Nobody has ignored anything. Question, if you are putting together a raid group and you have the option of a L20 rogue and a L20 fighter which do you normally choose and why?

If you are always picking the rogue then that will come as a surprise to me. I think the general opinion is that, except in some specific quests, rogues are not needed and the L20 fighter is the better selection.

Now, if I show you that the 14/6 multiclass falls behind the L20 fighter by just 5 points of damage per hit which do you choose -- the L20 rogue with the lower BAB or the 14/6 multiclass with the higher BAB? Don't ignore feats and enhancements, go from starting BAB, add all appropriate feats and enhancements, work out which hits more often.

You see, we did this once with a battlecleric build and I showed how the battlecleric had higher AC and better BAB and damage than the fighter build in that thread. You didn't like the results then and made the same types of comments about my proving myself wrong. Only then, as now, you don't give any evidence of your assertions.

The fact is that IF you prefer the L20 fighter in most cases over the L20 rogue then you should favor the 14/6 multiclass as well. If you disagree with that then provide numbers to show that I am wrong.

Or, join Battleworm in proclaiming how wrong I am while avoiding offering any evidence.

Anyone want to predict how this will turn out?

ddoer
10-30-2009, 01:04 PM
What you should be asking yourself is: What are the chances a brand new player with no concept of DDO will be able to pull off deep multiclassing a caster with any degree of success? And if your answer is "not likely", will having a difficult time finding groups, having less than decent damage and abilities that are difficult to make work properly cause this new player to dislike his DDO experience?


well said. +1 rep.

be honest, my advice to the OP is, don't be stupid. There is no fun to make a gimp build. My first advice at #4 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2515382#post2515382) was not clear enough.




You should link your build in your signature, this way you do not have to talk about it in every thread you join.



Here are my current builds, all on Cannith:

Neebelnox Fooselbaum -- current 12 cleric/3 paladin/2 monk, planned 15 cleric/3 paladin/2 monk, reincarnating as a 15 cleric/3 paladin/2 monk with additional STR based on what I've learned from the build.
Yucheng of the Shadows -- current 1 bard/1 fighter/4 rogue, planned 1 bard/1 fighter/18 rogue, reincarnating as 1 monk/1 fighter/18 rogue (currently my haggle character to be replaced by Basso Profundo -- see further down).
Ian Royce McAlyster -- current 2 paladin, planned 20 paladin.

And here are my previous characters on Ghallanda:

Leyoni the Fey -- L16 sorcerer
Therindal Durinson -- Barbarian 8/Fighter 7/Ranger 2
Cratesmasher Slayer of Clay Jars -- Ranger 12/Monk 2/Rogue 2

I stopped playing on Ghallanda when Cannith was made live in order to grab a number of character names that I was not able to get on Ghallanda.

Future characters coming to Cannith:

Alaric Rhys Morgan -- planned Ranger 20
Basso Profundo -- planned Bard 20
Caleb ben Ruben -- planned Fighter 20
Certified Used Parts -- planned Wizard 18/Rogue 2
Cratesmasher Slayer of Clay Jars -- planned Ranger 19/Monk 1
Ezra Grey -- planned Favored Soul 20 reincarnating as Paladin 20 reincarnating as Wizard 20
Farfindal Durinson -- planned Cleric 20
Leyoni the Fey -- planned Sorcerer 18/Monk 2
Loren ben Uller -- planned Fighter 20
Seven of Many -- planned Rogue 19/Wizard 1
Therigar Durinson -- planned Fighter 20
Therindal Durinson -- planned Ranger 19/Monk 1


lol. well.. um.. if i read it correctly,

you have 6 toons. 2 x lv 17, 2 x lv 16, 1 x lv 6, 1 x lv 4
you have 15 planned level 20 build. you are really an experienced build planner.


so i suppose you do not have any experience in finding group as a level 18-20 toon, and you just guess the OP's build won't have problem in finding group for the end game content, right?

recently, I come across a post that someone commented another one as "noob acting like a vet (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2516287#post2516287)", do you understand why that guy make the comment?

Edited: why don't you make the fighter 14 / sorc 6 build, level it to 20, and then proudly tell us the build works perfectly and you guys are all BSing?




Me: 14/6 fighter/sorcerer is at least equal to a L20 rogue in hitting ability and just less than a L20 fighter using the same THF and Kensai feat/enhancement lines.



Lets make sure we ignore the fact a L20 rogue will be doing a ton of backstab the 14/6 fighter sorc will not.


i think there is no way a level 14 fighter with haste could come close to a level 20 rog in dps.

Battleworm
10-30-2009, 01:12 PM
well said. +1 rep. (hope the system allow me)

be honest, my advice to the OP is, don't be stupid. There is no fun to make a gimp build. My first advice at #4 was not clear enough.







lol. well.. um.. if i read it correctly,

you have 6 toons. 2 x lv 17, 2 x lv 16, 1 x lv 6, 1 x lv 4
you have 15 planned level 20 build. you are really an experienced build planner.


so i suppose you do not have any experience in finding group as a level 18-20 toon, and you just guess the OP's build won't have problem in finding group for the end game content, right?

recently, I come across a post that someone commented another one as "noob acting like a vet (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2516287#post2516287)", do you understand why that guy make the comment?






i think there is no way a level 14 fighter with haste could come close to a level 20 rog in dps.


But yet he goes around spreading terrible build advice and if you dare contradict him he'll hit you with the useless wall of text.Which still doesn't make any sense but he loves to write and read himself.So, what we have is a guy that *thinks* he knows stuff and actually the more you look at it he seems to knwo less and less.Remeber that other thread where some guy was constantly saying oh my neeblenox this and that and uber and wow?yep,that was him.funny , no?

Quintun
10-30-2009, 01:15 PM
Quintun, I'd have thought you'd learned a bit more by now. :)

Nobody has ignored anything. Question, if you are putting together a raid group and you have the option of a L20 rogue and a L20 fighter which do you normally choose and why?

If you are always picking the rogue then that will come as a surprise to me. I think the general opinion is that, except in some specific quests, rogues are not needed and the L20 fighter is the better selection.

Now, if I show you that the 14/6 multiclass falls behind the L20 fighter by just 5 points of damage per hit which do you choose -- the L20 rogue with the lower BAB or the 14/6 multiclass with the higher BAB? Don't ignore feats and enhancements, go from starting BAB, add all appropriate feats and enhancements, work out which hits more often.

You see, we did this once with a battlecleric build and I showed how the battlecleric had higher AC and better BAB and damage than the fighter build in that thread. You didn't like the results then and made the same types of comments about my proving myself wrong. Only then, as now, you don't give any evidence of your assertions.

The fact is that IF you prefer the L20 fighter in most cases over the L20 rogue then you should favor the 14/6 multiclass as well. If you disagree with that then provide numbers to show that I am wrong.

Or, join Battleworm in proclaiming how wrong I am while avoiding offering any evidence.

Anyone want to predict how this will turn out?


You put too much stock in BAB. You obviously do not know what it means or how it works.

Therigar I rarely have a preferance in a raid, I know my friends and I are good enough to short man it so we accept pileons like you regardless of class.



The Rogue is going to hit all the time. L20 Rogue is not gimp or going to hit less than your 14/6 or your 15/3/2(which by the way if his gear in myDDO.com is accurate is not living up to the theory you used as proof).

Battleworm
10-30-2009, 01:56 PM
Quintun, I'd have thought you'd learned a bit more by now. :)
Nobody has ignored anything. Question, if you are putting together a raid group and you have the option of a L20 rogue and a L20 fighter which do you normally choose and why?

If you are always picking the rogue then that will come as a surprise to me. I think the general opinion is that, except in some specific quests, rogues are not needed and the L20 fighter is the better selection.

Now, if I show you that the 14/6 multiclass falls behind the L20 fighter by just 5 points of damage per hit which do you choose -- the L20 rogue with the lower BAB or the 14/6 multiclass with the higher BAB? Don't ignore feats and enhancements, go from starting BAB, add all appropriate feats and enhancements, work out which hits more often.

*snip useless dribble*
Anyone want to predict how this will turn out?

I think you are on dope if you think a 20 rogue wouldn't murder your gimped 14 fighter 6 wizard.14 fighter,seriously,i wouldn't even bring him in shroud so you can imagine how that would work for every other quest.I'd love to see that mutt solo rainbow or devils or anything really.No ac,wiz side gimped to the gills and fighter is only about 5 modules back in dps from the rest but sure if that makes you happy.as for saying i bring no facts,you certainly bring nothing to back you up other than words.Show me actual dps calculations on how close your *gem* of a mutt would do.Great combo and make sure to use robes to get rid of that pesky arcane failure that you never mentionned yet too.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 02:35 PM
lol. well.. um.. if i read it correctly,

you have 6 toons. 2 x lv 17, 2 x lv 16, 1 x lv 6, 1 x lv 4
you have 15 planned level 20 build. you are really an experienced build planner.


so i suppose you do not have any experience in finding group as a level 18-20 toon, and you just guess the OP's build won't have problem in finding group for the end game content, right?

:)

I am not making any guesses. I understand that people who look at character class splits do not look beyond that to what a character may end up able to do.

I have leveled characters to cap when the cap was 16. I switched servers with DDO:EU. I am currently L17 with the only character I am aggressively playing. I know that I'm not having trouble getting groups.

I also know that you are not looking at the build, its to hit numbers or its damage numbers -- that you are simply looking at the class split and assuming that it isn't any good. If it were otherwise you would refute my position by providing solid numbers showing that I am wrong.


You put too much stock in BAB. You obviously do not know what it means or how it works.

Therigar I rarely have a preferance in a raid, I know my friends and I are good enough to short man it so we accept pileons like you regardless of class.

The Rogue is going to hit all the time. L20 Rogue is not gimp or going to hit less than your 14/6 or your 15/3/2(which by the way if his gear in myDDO.com is accurate is not living up to the theory you used as proof).

That is correct. The rogue is going to hit all, or at least most, of the time. Which is why I chose that class.

The conclusion then is that the 14/6 is going to hit all, or at least most, of the time.

BAB -- base attack bonus -- is the number to which your attack modifiers (DEX or STR plus weapon plus any incidentals due to circumstance, such as rogue backstab or FE) is added. In DDO this caps out at 5 attacks per attack sequence (10 if TWF with GTWF feat).

BAB is the start point for understanding if an attack will hit or not. Decreasing BAB through CE or PA, for example, can lead to misses. I know what BAB is, I'm concerned that you don't understand its importance in the to hit calculations.

My plan for Neebelnox is based on end build. I am currently lacking +8 armor bracers and various stat boosting items as well as tomes. I hardly think that is pertinent since I did not design to have the full compliment of gear at L17.

As for building a 14/6 split -- I might on my terms. I've already posted where I would personally differ with OP's initially posted concept.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 02:38 PM
i think there is no way a level 14 fighter with haste could come close to a level 20 rog in dps.

I appreciate that. Do you want to do the math to support your point of view?

Quintun
10-30-2009, 04:45 PM
:)

I am not making any guesses. I understand that people who look at character class splits do not look beyond that to what a character may end up able to do.

I have leveled characters to cap when the cap was 16. I switched servers with DDO:EU. I am currently L17 with the only character I am aggressively playing. I know that I'm not having trouble getting groups.

I also know that you are not looking at the build, its to hit numbers or its damage numbers -- that you are simply looking at the class split and assuming that it isn't any good. If it were otherwise you would refute my position by providing solid numbers showing that I am wrong.



That is correct. The rogue is going to hit all, or at least most, of the time. Which is why I chose that class.

The conclusion then is that the 14/6 is going to hit all, or at least most, of the time.

BAB -- base attack bonus -- is the number to which your attack modifiers (DEX or STR plus weapon plus any incidentals due to circumstance, such as rogue backstab or FE) is added. In DDO this caps out at 5 attacks per attack sequence (10 if TWF with GTWF feat).

BAB is the start point for understanding if an attack will hit or not. Decreasing BAB through CE or PA, for example, can lead to misses. I know what BAB is, I'm concerned that you don't understand its importance in the to hit calculations.

My plan for Neebelnox is based on end build. I am currently lacking +8 armor bracers and various stat boosting items as well as tomes. I hardly think that is pertinent since I did not design to have the full compliment of gear at L17.

As for building a 14/6 split -- I might on my terms. I've already posted where I would personally differ with OP's initially posted concept.


BaB is not as important as you seem to think. You give it too much credit when comparing builds. I not only understand its importance, I clearly have a better grasp of it then you do. It no longer adds attacks at higher BaB. Full Attack chain is reached so early now that BaB no longer plays the role it once did. For someone spouting his own understanding you certainly miss these important keys.


You continue to use BaB as the end all be all of build comparing, sorry but so much more goes into it that BaB is no longer as important. Evolve with the times. To hit is what decides that and BaB is only half the equation. You seem to forget these things in order to make it sound like a 14/6 GIMPO will actually be comparable to a Level 20 Rogue. Seems one of us is delusional on what a rogue does high end.

Problem with Feebelnox is he will not do at end game the things you originally claimed. No need to rehash it, but he is a healbot with less healing than should be. Good AC on a character that will barely get aggro solo is about as wasted as 26 cha on a character taking 6 levels of sorc.

Krag
10-30-2009, 05:02 PM
I'm just curious. Why does such a build need to be fine all by itself? Are you suggesting that any L6 sorcerer is fine all by itself?

You see, I could suggest spells that would make this the case. I could recommend a charm based character. And, as a L6 sorcerer it would be fine all by itself -- as fine as any L6 arcane will be.

But, that is ignoring the long-term build.

I would venture to say that arcanes are considered the most difficult classes to solo with at early levels because they lack any real spell power. This can be overcome by spell selection but most people simply group until Wall of Fire. At that point the arcanes become serious threats.

I see nothing in the L6 build recommendation to suggest that the OP will need to quest alone. To the contrary, the spell selection provides several useful buffs (blur, jump, nightshield) and the all important haste that will suffice.


You are funny. Let me summarise our discussion so far:

Krag: Suggested build is a poor choice for soloing.
Therigar: U are teh n00b! Stop spreading lies!

A few posts later you admit that build does suck at soloing.


No, actually the build will be more challenging to play in levels 7-12 when it has a bit of mixed identity. This is a legitimate objection to my earlier advice. In retrospect I would suggest that OP run primarily as a fighter and fit in sorcerer every third or fourth level. He can rationalize it as coming to terms with the Force and learning how to use it.

The advantage to my initial advice and leveling approach is that it permits the OP to shift gears and remain on the sorcerer path should he decide that he wants more arcane (I mean Force) power.


Care to explain what good are those occasional Sorc levels? You won't even get blur before level 12.


However, at end with the 14/6 split the build will be just fine. See my earlier post regarding to hit and damage information.

If you totally out of ideas on how to improve damage with 6 levels to play with, how about improving survivability? Replace all Sorc levels with Ftr to get extra 6hp per level and put all extra feats into toughness (in case you really don't see more efficient ways to improve your performance).


I'm not implying anything. I'm saying very clearly that such comments are not helpful because they are opinion and not fact based. There is very low synergy. But that does not translate into a need for rerolling. What it translates to is a need to understand the limitations and to adjust stats and goals to accommodate those limitations.

Who said those comments were helpful? They are annoying as hell.


This is why your advice is bad. It isn't based on facts or information. It is based on opinion and bias. Now, it is a fact that opinionated and biased people play DDO. But just because DDO is occassionally populated by jerks is no reason not to build a particular character.

I have not posted any advice so far. Only listed a few problems the OP would probably encounter if he was to follow your lines.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 06:32 PM
You are funny. Let me summarise our discussion so far:

Krag: Suggested build is a poor choice for soloing.
Therigar: U are teh n00b! Stop spreading lies!

A few posts later you admit that build does suck at soloing.

Your first post to this thread is on p3. My response is that you have pretty strong opinions for a person who just joined the forums in September 2009.

Your next meaningful post repeats your point about soloing. To that I ask what does soloing have to do with anything.

No place along the way do I debate with you the ability of the character to solo. No where along the way do I suggest that the character will be good at soloing -- either before your posts or after.

What you have is a situation where you have created an issue that does not exist. There is no truth in your statements to deny and the only parts of your posts that need to be denied are the untruths that I've previously addressed.

Your summary of OUR discussion is woefully inaccurate.


Care to explain what good are those occasional Sorc levels? You won't even get blur before level 12.

Well, as I originally posted the build suggestion on page 1 the idea is to take 6 consecutive levels of sorcerer. Now, blur is a L2 spell which the sorcerer will get at L4. I don't know where the L12 comment comes from unless you are referring to my much later post where I wrote "In retrospect I would suggest that OP run primarily as a fighter and fit in sorcerer every third or fourth level. He can rationalize it as coming to terms with the Force and learning how to use it."

This retrospect is grudging acceptance that DDO is filled with bigots who will deny a place in their group if they see a build that doesn't fit their preconceived notions of what is good and what is bad. Disguising the build a bit will let the player group in spite of the bigotry and establish their own reputation as a competent player. By the time the full sorcerer levels kick in it will not be important as he will have worked his way into a regular group of players who will know and trust him.


If you totally out of ideas on how to improve damage with 6 levels to play with, how about improving survivability? Replace all Sorc levels with Ftr to get extra 6hp per level and put all extra feats into toughness (in case you really don't see more efficient ways to improve your performance).

I didn't know that we were discussing improving damage. I've posted the net damage difference between the proposed 14/6 build and a pure L20 fighter build that starts with max STR. That difference is 5 points of damage per hit. The only thing I did not do was calculate the effect of critical hits. Since OP discussed greatswords which have a 19-20 crit range and x2 multiplier the overall difference is ~7 points per hit even on a keen weapon.

Now, if we want to discuss increasing damage then I've already addressed that with my observation that I don't really favor THF builds -- that TWF causes more damage. But, this was never an issue.

As to increased survivability, 36 HP is not insignificant. However, as the CON thread discusses the relative importance of those HP depends a lot on the build. With a proposed 24 CON the build will have 140+24+140=304 HP just from class plus CON. Toss in the normal HP boosts -- heroic durability, toughness, Minos helm, GFL, favor, etc. -- around 175 additional HP. At somewhere around 450-480 HP those 36 are less than a 10% increase. Valuable, yes, build killer -- I don't think so. They will be far more than the rogue I keep discussing. :D

Still if that is a concern then I'll point to another of my concerns -- that the proposed CHA is too high given the nature of the spells and the maximum spell level. All of the points put towards CHA could instead go towards STR and CON. Both choices would increase damage and survivability.


Who said those comments were helpful? They are annoying as hell.

This needs context.



Are you implying that people won't try to help you by pointing out low synergy of those two classes or by suggesting a reroll?

I'm not implying anything. I'm saying very clearly that such comments are not helpful because they are opinion and not fact based. There is very low synergy. But that does not translate into a need for rerolling. What it translates to is a need to understand the limitations and to adjust stats and goals to accommodate those limitations.

The comments I refer to are yours when you say, "Are you implying that people won't try to help you by ... suggesting a reroll." The comment that a reroll is needed isn't helpful. It isn't helpful because it is not based on facts but on opinion and bias.


I have not posted any advice so far. Only listed a few problems the OP would probably encounter if he was to follow your lines.

You know what, you are right, you haven't offered any advice. You've only offered opinion on possible difficulties that the OP will have if he builds such a character. I guess I confused all of your objections as equating to advice that OP not pursue a Sith build using the 14/6 model.

I think other readers will excuse me for that. Generally when someone says "Do this" and another person says "Don't" the two are seen as offering contrary advice.

I see, however, that your only intent is to argue -- not help the OP or others.

Strangly I've been accused of this intent to argue. Even more odd is that I've actually been offering not only opinion based advice but also the basis for those opinions. :(

Quintun
10-30-2009, 07:10 PM
Your first post to this thread is on p3. My response is that you have pretty strong opinions for a person who just joined the forums in September 2009.

Your next meaningful post repeats your point about soloing. To that I ask what does soloing have to do with anything.

No place along the way do I debate with you the ability of the character to solo. No where along the way do I suggest that the character will be good at soloing -- either before your posts or after.

What you have is a situation where you have created an issue that does not exist. There is no truth in your statements to deny and the only parts of your posts that need to be denied are the untruths that I've previously addressed.

Your summary of OUR discussion is woefully inaccurate.



Well, as I originally posted the build suggestion on page 1 the idea is to take 6 consecutive levels of sorcerer. Now, blur is a L2 spell which the sorcerer will get at L4. I don't know where the L12 comment comes from unless you are referring to my much later post where I wrote "In retrospect I would suggest that OP run primarily as a fighter and fit in sorcerer every third or fourth level. He can rationalize it as coming to terms with the Force and learning how to use it."

This retrospect is grudging acceptance that DDO is filled with bigots who will deny a place in their group if they see a build that doesn't fit their preconceived notions of what is good and what is bad. Disguising the build a bit will let the player group in spite of the bigotry and establish their own reputation as a competent player. By the time the full sorcerer levels kick in it will not be important as he will have worked his way into a regular group of players who will know and trust him.



I didn't know that we were discussing improving damage. I've posted the net damage difference between the proposed 14/6 build and a pure L20 fighter build that starts with max STR. That difference is 5 points of damage per hit. The only thing I did not do was calculate the effect of critical hits. Since OP discussed greatswords which have a 19-20 crit range and x2 multiplier the overall difference is ~7 points per hit even on a keen weapon.

Now, if we want to discuss increasing damage then I've already addressed that with my observation that I don't really favor THF builds -- that TWF causes more damage. But, this was never an issue.

As to increased survivability, 36 HP is not insignificant. However, as the CON thread discusses the relative importance of those HP depends a lot on the build. With a proposed 24 CON the build will have 140+24+140=304 HP just from class plus CON. Toss in the normal HP boosts -- heroic durability, toughness, Minos helm, GFL, favor, etc. -- around 175 additional HP. At somewhere around 450-480 HP those 36 are less than a 10% increase. Valuable, yes, build killer -- I don't think so. They will be far more than the rogue I keep discussing. :D

Still if that is a concern then I'll point to another of my concerns -- that the proposed CHA is too high given the nature of the spells and the maximum spell level. All of the points put towards CHA could instead go towards STR and CON. Both choices would increase damage and survivability.



This needs context.



The comments I refer to are yours when you say, "Are you implying that people won't try to help you by ... suggesting a reroll." The comment that a reroll is needed isn't helpful. It isn't helpful because it is not based on facts but on opinion and bias.



You know what, you are right, you haven't offered any advice. You've only offered opinion on possible difficulties that the OP will have if he builds such a character. I guess I confused all of your objections as equating to advice that OP not pursue a Sith build using the 14/6 model.

I think other readers will excuse me for that. Generally when someone says "Do this" and another person says "Don't" the two are seen as offering contrary advice.

I see, however, that your only intent is to argue -- not help the OP or others.

Strangly I've been accused of this intent to argue. Even more odd is that I've actually been offering not only opinion based advice but also the basis for those opinions. :(



Therigar you need to check the changes to BaB and understand that people get the full attack chain by level 4 and it no longer adds attacks at higher level. You now get more attack speed as you level.

For someone acting like they understand the game you fail at even the simple parts like BaB and attack sequence. Not to mention not understanding spell penetration or DR.

With the advice this guy is getting from you he is going to cause party wipes in the gianthold at level 17.
5.

Artis_Resistance
10-30-2009, 07:53 PM
So... this is what happens when you combine Star Wars, D&D, and the internet. Impressive! All hell has broken loose, I'm convinced the end is nigh.

Krag
10-30-2009, 09:01 PM
Your first post to this thread is on p3. My response is that you have pretty strong opinions for a person who just joined the forums in September 2009.

Your next meaningful post repeats your point about soloing. To that I ask what does soloing have to do with anything.

No place along the way do I debate with you the ability of the character to solo. No where along the way do I suggest that the character will be good at soloing -- either before your posts or after.

What you have is a situation where you have created an issue that does not exist. There is no truth in your statements to deny and the only parts of your posts that need to be denied are the untruths that I've previously addressed.

Your summary of OUR discussion is woefully inaccurate.


The soloing may or may not be the issue for the OP. It's up to him to decide.
I've pointed out the FACT that Ftr/Sorc is a poor choice for solo to help him make his own mind. You posted your own OPINION that soloing is not important.



Well, as I originally posted the build suggestion on page 1 the idea is to take 6 consecutive levels of sorcerer. Now, blur is a L2 spell which the sorcerer will get at L4. I don't know where the L12 comment comes from unless you are referring to my much later post where I wrote "In retrospect I would suggest that OP run primarily as a fighter and fit in sorcerer every third or fourth level. He can rationalize it as coming to terms with the Force and learning how to use it."

L12 comment comes from your suggestion to "fit Sorcerer every third or fourth level"


This retrospect is grudging acceptance that DDO is filled with bigots who will deny a place in their group if they see a build that doesn't fit their preconceived notions of what is good and what is bad. Disguising the build a bit will let the player group in spite of the bigotry and establish their own reputation as a competent player. By the time the full sorcerer levels kick in it will not be important as he will have worked his way into a regular group of players who will know and trust him.

Wow! That's an attitude!
I guess, the OP should be grateful that you don't suggest begging to join a group.


I didn't know that we were discussing improving damage. I've posted the net damage difference between the proposed 14/6 build and a pure L20 fighter build that starts with max STR. That difference is 5 points of damage per hit. The only thing I did not do was calculate the effect of critical hits. Since OP discussed greatswords which have a 19-20 crit range and x2 multiplier the overall difference is ~7 points per hit even on a keen weapon.

Now, if we want to discuss increasing damage then I've already addressed that with my observation that I don't really favor THF builds -- that TWF causes more damage. But, this was never an issue.

As to increased survivability, 36 HP is not insignificant. However, as the CON thread discusses the relative importance of those HP depends a lot on the build. With a proposed 24 CON the build will have 140+24+140=304 HP just from class plus CON. Toss in the normal HP boosts -- heroic durability, toughness, Minos helm, GFL, favor, etc. -- around 175 additional HP. At somewhere around 450-480 HP those 36 are less than a 10% increase. Valuable, yes, build killer -- I don't think so. They will be far more than the rogue I keep discussing.

You totally miss the point.
My intention was not making ub3r build. All I want is to show how easy it is to improve the poor gimpy Sorc/Ftr.



The comments I refer to are yours when you say, "Are you implying that people won't try to help you by ... suggesting a reroll." The comment that a reroll is needed isn't helpful. It isn't helpful because it is not based on facts but on opinion and bias.


Intention to help is not the same thing as actual help. At least that much we agree on.


You know what, you are right, you haven't offered any advice. You've only offered opinion on possible difficulties that the OP will have if he builds such a character. I guess I confused all of your objections as equating to advice that OP not pursue a Sith build using the 14/6 model.


Wrong. I'm offering FACTS to consider, not opinions.


I see, however, that your only intent is to argue -- not help the OP or others.

As much as I hate to admit it, i do enjoy arguing with you. You are quite... entertaining.

Quintun
10-30-2009, 09:09 PM
The soloing may or may not be the issue for the OP. It's up to him to decide.
I've pointed out the FACT that Ftr/Sorc is a poor choice for solo to help him build his own mind. You posted your own OPINION that soloing is not important.




L12 comment comes from your suggestion to "fit Sorcerer every third or fourth level"



Wow! That's an attitude!
I guess, the OP should be grateful that you does not suggest begging to join a group.



You totally miss the point.
My intention was not making ub3r build. All I want is to show how easy it is to improve the poor gimpy Sorc/Ftr.




Intention to help is not the same thing as actual help. At least that much we agree on.



Wrong. I'm offering FACTS to consider, not opinions.



As much as I hate to admit it, i do enjoy arguing with you. You are quite... entertaining.


Krag this link will help you understand the thought process of some.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2523022&postcount=3

Therigar
10-30-2009, 10:07 PM
Therigar you need to check the changes to BaB and understand that people get the full attack chain by level 4 and it no longer adds attacks at higher level. You now get more attack speed as you level.

For someone acting like they understand the game you fail at even the simple parts like BaB and attack sequence. Not to mention not understanding spell penetration or DR.

With the advice this guy is getting from you he is going to cause party wipes in the gianthold at level 17.
5.

Quintun,

The only thing that patch 1 really means is that the fifth attack in a chain is gone and to compensate higher BAB characters attack faster. It does not change the essential meaning of BAB or of attack sequence.

Let's make it non-trivial. What is Harry's AC? Somewhere around 47 on normal IIRC. Let's take the rogue and the 14/6 build.

Rogue BAB chain is 15/15/20/25. Total bonus to hit is +23*. Add to the attack sequence giving 38/38/43/48. The rogue must roll 9+/9+/4+/2+.

Now the 14/6 BAB chain is 17/17/22/27. Total bonus to hit is +25** . Add to the attack sequence giving 42/42/47/52. The 14/6 must roll 5+/5+/2+/2+.

Even though we know it isn't the case, let's assume attack speed is exactly the same and that there are 20 complete chains for the combat.

Rogue misses 8+8+3+1=20 of 80 attacks. 16/4 misses 4+4+1+1=10 of 80 attacks.

These are facts***.

*Assume rogue has full backstab enhancements, 18 STR with all level ups into STR, +3 tome and +6 item along with +5 weapon, weapon focus and flanking bonus for 4+11+5+1+2=+23.

**Assume fighter has 16 STR with all level ups into STR, +2 tome, +3 enhancements +8 Kensai II surge and +6 item along with +5 weapon, Kensai signature weapon, weapon focus, greater weapon focus and flanking bonus with enhancements for 12+5+1+1+1+5=+25.

***Kensai surge through all attacks is probably unfair as is flanking bonus. However, it is no more unfair than assuming every rogue attack will be a sneak attack and also merit a flanking bonus. Remove these from the calculations.

Rogue: 11+5+1=+17, new chain 32/32/37/42, new roll 15+/15+/10+/5+, new misses 14+14+9+4=41 of 80.

14/6: 11+5+1+1+1=+19, new chain 36/36/41/46, new roll 11+/11+/6+/2+, new misses 10+10+5+1=26 of 80.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 10:19 PM
OK Therigar, so why doesn't a L20 rogue miss Harry >50% of the time?

Well, I'll tell you why. Because in a raid there are additional bonuses flying around to increase the actual to hit chances. You've got Greater Heroism, Inspire Greatness, Recitation plus other potential boosts.

However the basic fact remains that any L20 group taking in a L20 rogue gets at least as competent a character with a 14/6 fighter/sorcerer build in the area of melee.

Note lastly that the comparison assumes exactly the same number of attacks over time and that this changes if the rogue is TWF. First there are additonal attacks and second there are additonal decreases to the to hit bonuses. Actual damage output has to be calculated based on weapon differences. This potential decrease in the 14/6 effectiveness is why I have several times said that I prefer TWF over THF.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 10:32 PM
Wrong. I'm offering FACTS to consider, not opinions..

So, what facts are you offering? I may be dense and missing them. We have established you are not offering advice. So what are the facts you are offering?

Even though you've said you are not offering advice and now say you have presented facts you did post this:


All I want is to show how easy it is to improve the poor gimpy Sorc/Ftr

Clearly you think you've done something to show that 14/6 is gimpy and can be improved on. What exactly is it that you've done?


As much as I hate to admit it, i do enjoy arguing with you. You are quite... entertaining.

Does this define Troll? I think it does. Reason enough to stop addressing your posts in a direct manner.

If you start to actually offer advice or contradict my posted numbers with your own and demonstrate how they are more accurate, then I'll resume direct responses to your posts.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 10:36 PM
Krag this link will help you understand the thought process of some.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2523022&postcount=3

Why not show the entire thread? And, while you are at it, why not post why you think I made a poor choice in the feat swap?

But, more importantly, why not post in that thread where the comments will be appropriate?

Unfortunately, like Krag, you demonstrate that you are not interested in discussing factual things. Like Krag, it means that I will stop responding to you directly until you do.

Quintun
10-30-2009, 10:52 PM
Why not show the entire thread? And, while you are at it, why not post why you think I made a poor choice in the feat swap?

But, more importantly, why not post in that thread where the comments will be appropriate?

Unfortunately, like Krag, you demonstrate that you are not interested in discussing factual things. Like Krag, it means that I will stop responding to you directly until you do.

Good choice, quit while you are behind. The facts are your uber build failed to stop a wipe in a mid level quest at level 17 and then you blamed the AC and the DR of newer players. Theory is all well and good but reality makes the truth evident.

Factual things like you fail to understand BAB or DR? These have been pointed out to you over and over. Facts like your 29 DPS does not count as end game melee? One of us spends too much time in fantasy land. His name is not Quintun.

Quintun
10-30-2009, 10:57 PM
Quintun,

The only thing that patch 1 really means is that the fifth attack in a chain is gone and to compensate higher BAB characters attack faster. It does not change the essential meaning of BAB or of attack sequence.

Let's make it non-trivial. What is Harry's AC? Somewhere around 47 on normal IIRC. Let's take the rogue and the 14/6 build.

Rogue BAB chain is 15/15/20/25. Total bonus to hit is +23*. Add to the attack sequence giving 38/38/43/48. The rogue must roll 9+/9+/4+/2+.

Now the 14/6 BAB chain is 17/17/22/27. Total bonus to hit is +25** . Add to the attack sequence giving 42/42/47/52. The 14/6 must roll 5+/5+/2+/2+.

Even though we know it isn't the case, let's assume attack speed is exactly the same and that there are 20 complete chains for the combat.

Rogue misses 8+8+3+1=20 of 80 attacks. 16/4 misses 4+4+1+1=10 of 80 attacks.

These are facts***.

*Assume rogue has full backstab enhancements, 18 STR with all level ups into STR, +3 tome and +6 item along with +5 weapon, weapon focus and flanking bonus for 4+11+5+1+2=+23.

**Assume fighter has 16 STR with all level ups into STR, +2 tome, +3 enhancements +8 Kensai II surge and +6 item along with +5 weapon, Kensai signature weapon, weapon focus, greater weapon focus and flanking bonus with enhancements for 12+5+1+1+1+5=+25.

***Kensai surge through all attacks is probably unfair as is flanking bonus. However, it is no more unfair than assuming every rogue attack will be a sneak attack and also merit a flanking bonus. Remove these from the calculations.

Rogue: 11+5+1=+17, new chain 32/32/37/42, new roll 15+/15+/10+/5+, new misses 14+14+9+4=41 of 80.

14/6: 11+5+1+1+1=+19, new chain 36/36/41/46, new roll 11+/11+/6+/2+, new misses 10+10+5+1=26 of 80.

Actually the new sequence for attack completely changes what BaB means. You used to get your attacks at a much higher BaB now you have them by level 4. You no longer get the 5 attacks you constantly claim(yet another thing you fail to know) per attack sequence.

Your next character name should be assume, that seems to be the way you try to make points.

EDIT: You can also add the sneak attack accuracy feat a rogue will take and lets not forget that it is much more likely the rogue gets to use sneak attack as in a group there will be others getting aggro nearly all the time, an intim build almost promises unlimited sneak attacks.

Straight up the rogue will demolish the DPS of the Sithgimp.

Therigar
10-30-2009, 11:09 PM
Fact is that I failed to stop a wipe at effective cleric level 12 and accepted responsibility for that after discussing it with the party. I changed a feat to avoid a repeat.


Was running Tor tonight and wiped on White and Blue dragons. We went back and beat White easily. The problem was Blue.

My multiclass mutt battlecleric spammed max/empowered cure medium wound spells but combat logs showed few if any landing. After discussion we determined that my concentration was constantly being broken and that I needed Quicken.

Now, this is a metamagic that I've intended to pick up but I've been having such fun with max/empowered/extended blade barriers that I simply haven't swapped out for quicken. It proved to be a mistake and the fault for the wipe was legitimately mine.

Apologies to the group and an important lesson learned.

Off to respec now.

Note that I did not blame the party, I say "the fault for the wipe was legitimately mine."


I almost did just that. Opted to swap out Extend instead. Neebelnox is a deep multiclassed battlecleric and I'm needing to fill more cleric roles. At L20 he'll only have 15 cleric levels and almost none of the spell selections are buff oriented.

I can handle the combat side of things with straight melee when necessary but max/empowered healing seems more important than max/empowered/extended barriers. Pre-DDO:EU I wouldn't have thought that way but there is something going on at the moment in DDO where groups are taking much more damage than I'd normally expect.

IMO that is because AC and DR on most new players is far below what we'd have expected in Mod 8. They get hit more often and take more damage. So, healing becomes a more critical factor.

Do you know how hard it is for a battlecleric player to think and play that way? :D

At L20 I don't know if I'll take extend or if I'll go with my initial build concept of GTWF. It is sort of dependent on how groups go over the next 3 levels (currently at character L17).


Reference to AC and DR is context explaining why I had wrong feats. It isn't blaming anyone in the party. No where do I say or even suggesting that it is their fault.

I said, "there is something going on at the moment in DDO where groups are taking much more damage than I'd normally expect."

I said, "IMO that is because AC and DR on most new players is far below what we'd have expected in Mod 8."

This isn't to fix blame. It explains why I dropped extend rather than empower. Quicken is not in my initial plan for the build. But circumstances showed that it was a necessary feat.

Quintun
10-30-2009, 11:16 PM
Fact is that I failed to stop a wipe at effective cleric level 12 and accepted responsibility for that after discussing it with the party. I changed a feat to avoid a repeat.



Note that I did not blame the party, I say "the fault for the wipe was legitimately mine."




Reference to AC and DR is context explaining why I had wrong feats. It isn't blaming anyone in the party. No where do I say or even suggesting that it is their fault.

I said, "there is something going on at the moment in DDO where groups are taking much more damage than I'd normally expect."

I said, "IMO that is because AC and DR on most new players is far below what we'd have expected in Mod 8."

This isn't to fix blame. It explains why I dropped extend rather than empower. Quicken is not in my initial plan for the build. But circumstances showed that it was a necessary feat.


Deep multiclass= not doing any role well enough in this case. No DPS to speak of, not enough healing(how do you plan a battle cleric and not get quicken earlier?)and AC that only matters when the rest of the party wipes and you are left alone, does building to include party wipes and how to save the party after one make for a good build? One would think healing to avoid the wipe would be the better plan.

Krag
10-31-2009, 05:25 AM
So, what facts are you offering? I may be dense and missing them. We have established you are not offering advice. So what are the facts you are offering?

I'm not into reposting all of them. Let's start with "Sith is poor at soloing".


Even though you've said you are not offering advice and now say you have presented facts you did post this:

By all the Twelve! I do NOT advise investing 3 feats into Toughness. Just an example on how to improve the build without losing a thing.


If you start to actually offer advice or contradict my posted numbers with your own and demonstrate how they are more accurate, then I'll resume direct responses to your posts.

There is no need to contradict you. You are contradicting yourself. One time your suggest grabbing TWF then you jump into "standing in the doorway" as a meatshield. Reading your equipment advices I see you picking every high-level item possible as if you had unlimited slots.

Post your equipment at levelcap or at 15 for all I care to make sure no item pops out of the air. Only then we can start discussing your numbers.

Therigar
10-31-2009, 07:02 AM
DDO:EU changed the landscape considerably, however, DDO is not intended to be a solo game. It is intended to be a MMORPG. Soloability is not a build criteria unless the OP specifically indicates that desire.

Toughness makes a useful placeholder for feats because it can be taken multiple times and it is not necessary to make complex feat swaps in order to get things into the correct order. If a build will depend on consuming tomes in order to elevate stats to a required level then the reality of the game is that on occassion a character will not have aquired the tome before they would want the feat. Because, at present, feat exchange only evaluates a character's current stat and does not have memory of what the stat was at a specific level it is possible to consume a tome and then go to a pre-tome level and acquire a feat through respec. No other feat selection provides this flexibility.

TWF is the best possible combat style in the game at the present time. Standing in a doorway while an arcane uses Wall of Fire is low risk whether shielded or unshielded as the firewall will draw aggro. However, nothing in TWF prevents use of shield in specific situations. Implying that it does simply is another form of arguing that has no real meaning regarding build designs. It should be noted that at the upper levels a character with TWF will often have better AC without a shield than with one -- especially true if monk splashed for AC. Holding a shield for DR may be counterproductive in that situation as the higher AC might prevent all hits except natural 20s while the shielded AC permits many hits at much lower numbers. Unless DR in such a situation is enough to prevent all damage then there is no benefit to using a shield -- even when filling a "meat shield" role.

Korvek
10-31-2009, 08:02 AM
What is Harry's AC? Somewhere around 47 on normal IIRC.

Last I checked it was 37, which kind of nullifies the rest of your post.

Before I bother responding to anything else, have you ever even played a Rogue?

Krag
10-31-2009, 09:15 AM
DDO:EU changed the landscape considerably, however, DDO is not intended to be a solo game. It is intended to be a MMORPG. Soloability is not a build criteria unless the OP specifically indicates that desire.


Again you are offering your own opinion instead of pure facts. I hope OP is mature enough to decide whether he want to play solo or not on his own.


TWF is the best possible combat style in the game at the present time. Standing in a doorway while an arcane uses Wall of Fire is low risk whether shielded or unshielded as the firewall will draw aggro. However, nothing in TWF prevents use of shield in specific situations. Implying that it does simply is another form of arguing that has no real meaning regarding build designs. It should be noted that at the upper levels a character with TWF will often have better AC without a shield than with one -- especially true if monk splashed for AC. Holding a shield for DR may be counterproductive in that situation as the higher AC might prevent all hits except natural 20s while the shielded AC permits many hits at much lower numbers. Unless DR in such a situation is enough to prevent all damage then there is no benefit to using a shield -- even when filling a "meat shield" role.

Why do you care about monks having great AC? IIRC you Sidhe does not include monk splash. That nullifies your argument.


Whilst we wait for you to post the whole build, I give you a link to a decent TWFer (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630). I'm far from claiming the Monster was the best damage dealer but the thread should give you an idea on what is the DPS of a non-gimp character.

Therigar
10-31-2009, 08:28 PM
Last I checked it was 37, which kind of nullifies the rest of your post.

Before I bother responding to anything else, have you ever even played a Rogue?

You may be right and I may be wrong. Substitute for Harry any other end game boss (assuming Harry even counts for one any more) or boost the difficulty level of the dungeon. It could very well be that on normal Harry is only 37. As I said, "IIRC."

It isn't the issue of Harry per se -- it is the issue of high AC bosses. If you don't like Harry then pick one you do like.