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View Full Version : TWF Fighter vs Ranger - Who does more dps?



DnD3
10-25-2009, 06:53 PM
Assuming both wield kopashes? I have a 8 fighter and I'm not sure if I should re-roll and get a ranger instead, I'm thinking of going pure which is why I'm asking about dps seeing as Rangers get more survivability with evasion, spell casting and even get enhancements for healing(damn, I took a Halfling fighter for the Healing dragonmarks, didn't know rangers got 40% more healing enhancement to use with their spells), get 10% ias at 6 and not 20 and the TWF feats for free.

Also with keen +18 kensai +1 to critical threat, does keen come into account after or before kensai 3?

Angelus_dead
10-25-2009, 08:32 PM
The answer depends on whether the fighter is able to make optimum use of his Action Boosts, especially Haste Boost.

Certainly a ranger is not bad at DPS, and has many other advantages as you noticed.

DnD3
10-25-2009, 08:47 PM
If he does make good use of em, what would be a realistic lead % in dps for the fighter if the enemy was a FE?

7-day_Trial_Monkey
10-25-2009, 09:46 PM
Whoever has the higher Str wins :)

I would think a Ranger has more places to put stat points compared to a fighter. That gives the fighter a shot at having a better str.

My 20 fighter Kensai 3 with dual khopeshes has 34 str, but has 8x 1min +8 str boosts and can drink a rage pot for 44 str.

He swings fast enough that I see 8 hits 1 above the other before they fade away, if the mob stays alive long enough.

My 8 haste boosts are on a different counter than the str boosts.

Angelus_dead
10-25-2009, 09:54 PM
He swings fast enough that I see 8 hits 1 above the other before they fade away, if the mob stays alive long enough.
That's not how the combat feedback works. There is a limit to how many numbers it will display at once, and it is easy for any TWF character to max it out. Everyone can show the same number of hits at once.

In fact, if I cast Fireball into 30 monsters, I'll get the same number of damage numbers you do.

Angelus_dead
10-25-2009, 09:56 PM
Another important factor is that the Fighter suffers if the monster has Fortification or DR/Blunt, while the Ranger is worse at high ACs.

78mackson
10-25-2009, 10:14 PM
fighter wins the DPS contest.

a ranger(the standard 18/1/1) is around 200/crit w 15% boosts VS FE, maybe average 55/hit(not counting SA n such)
a fighter is more likely with same gear on 210/250 w 30% boost vs ANYTHING that isnt dr/blunt. he also got +1crit range..

But a ranger is still waay superior imho(cause they don´t need a nanny): bow-dmg w precise or wop-bows w preciseshot, quicken/empowered self heal, self res, barkskin, high AC, higher saves, u name it...

uhgungawa
10-25-2009, 10:50 PM
fighter wins the DPS contest.

a ranger(the standard 18/1/1) is around 200/crit w 15% boosts VS FE, maybe average 55/hit(not counting SA n such)
a fighter is more likely with same gear on 210/250 w 30% boost vs ANYTHING that isnt dr/blunt. he also got +1crit range..

But a ranger is still waay superior imho(cause they don´t need a nanny): bow-dmg w precise or wop-bows w preciseshot, quicken/empowered self heal, self res, barkskin, high AC, higher saves, u name it...

If these are the feats you're taking then yes a fighter would be on top. :eek:

Rangers have evasion, can self heal, AC while duel wielding. But in the end, both have their good points and bad. It's up to how it's played.

My mutted out ranger has AC in the 60's (low end by the newer standards) 34 Str (hits like a mule) and 610 unbuffed HP.

The +8 Str boost fighters gets gives +4 to hit (if they need that with all of the weapons feats they take, it's time to reroll) and +4 to damage. The +1 to crit range is really nice, but as we get in to harder stuff fort is starting to play it's hand more and straight damage is looking like the future.

Just play what you want, have fun with it. It's a game.

7-day_Trial_Monkey
10-26-2009, 12:10 AM
That's not how the combat feedback works. There is a limit to how many numbers it will display at once, and it is easy for any TWF character to max it out. Everyone can show the same number of hits at once.

In fact, if I cast Fireball into 30 monsters, I'll get the same number of damage numbers you do.

You misunderstand.

If you have 1 mob only face to face and are swinging at it, each hit, 1 after the other produces a damage number that floats up and fades away. The distance it floats up before fading away is fixed. How many times you can hit the mob, and hence create a column of damage numbers above his head depends on your attack speed.

If it's fast enough you can get 8 numbers 1 above the other over the mobs head. If you don't swing fast enough the damage number from your 1st hit will fade away before you are able to hit him an 8th time. Side to side numbers is a whole other thing. On natural 20s I get 7 numbers side by side from 1 hit.

I'll see if I can get a screen shot for you.

FluffyCalico
10-26-2009, 12:17 AM
You misunderstand.

If you have 1 mob only face to face and are swinging at it, each hit, 1 after the other produces a damage number that floats up and fades away. The distance it floats up before fading away is fixed. How many times you can hit the mob, and hence create a column of damage numbers above his head depends on your attack speed.

If it's fast enough you can get 8 numbers 1 above the other over the mobs head. If you don't swing fast enough the damage number from your 1st hit will fade away before you are able to hit him an 8th time. Side to side numbers is a whole other thing. On natural 20s I get 7 numbers side by side from 1 hit.

I'll see if I can get a screen shot for you.

He understood. But it seems you do not.

Monkey_Archer
10-26-2009, 12:22 AM
Assuming both are fighting the ranger's FE and no DR is involved, Fighters have higher dps overall, but rangers will quickly catch up if the fighter runs out of boosts (or choses not to use them)

Against non-FE, the fighter wins period.

Xenus_Paradox
10-26-2009, 12:40 AM
But against endgame monsters, does either one out-dps a dual minII khopesh wielding Pally 20 with KotC and capstone?

lanthan
10-26-2009, 12:54 AM
But against endgame monsters, does either one out-dps a dual minII khopesh wielding Pally 20 with KotC and capstone?

I haven't worked out the numbers but I would bet that for epic desert quests the fighter has the highest dps with ranger being the top dps for epic DQ.

7-day_Trial_Monkey
10-26-2009, 01:16 AM
He understood. But it seems you do not.

Nonsense. You guys are out to lunch. Talking about the number of damage numbers you see from a fireball is completely offbase and has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Not any twf can get 8 hits in on 1 mob before the damage number of the 1st hit fades. I know this because I couldn't do it until after I got my 10% speed boost from cap. Before that, hasted + action boost, only 7 at a time would be visible.

Shade
10-26-2009, 06:26 AM
I haven't worked out the numbers but I would bet that for epic desert quests the fighter has the highest dps with ranger being the top dps for epic DQ.

Nope. It depends on the quest.

KoTC will outdps ftr and ranger on everything the bonus dice works on. And this includes undead.

So for wizard king.. They win. Especially in shorter fights where they can unload there smites.. Given the quest has 4 shrines, they should have a good time with smites.

Tho for Chains, it's mostly gnolls, and its so long that a ftr will run outa boost. So a ranger with FE Gnoll wins overall. But 1 end boss is a evil outsider, so kotc will hold there own in the end fight.

For offering of blood.. A mix of Drow, Abberations and Vermin.. No ranger will have FE for all of thoses, nor does KoTC work. So fighter takes the lead here.

For DQ1 - Such a large mix of monsters and long quest that no class will truely shine. But Rangers will survive the aoe's better, and end up better on the endfight, and probalby have FE for a few of the enemies there, so they probably get the top pick.

For epic DQ? Well all these classes are too squishy to melee (only barbarians can survive her attacks) so there melee DPS is zero. A ranger generally wins because they get the best ranged DPS, especially if pure.

FluffyCalico
10-26-2009, 06:29 AM
Nope. It depends on the quest.

KoTC will outdps ftr and ranger on everything the bonus dice works on. And this includes undead.

So for wizard king.. They win. Especially in shorter fights where they can unload there smites.. Given the quest has 4 shrines, they should have a good time with smites.

Tho for Chains, it's mostly gnolls, and its so long that a ftr will run outa boost. So a ranger with FE Gnoll wins overall. But 1 end boss is a evil outsider, so kotc will hold there own in the end fight.

For offering of blood.. A mix of Drow, Abberations and Vermin.. No ranger will have FE for all of thoses, nor does KoTC work. So fighter takes the lead here.

For DQ1 - Such a large mix of monsters and long quest that no class will truely shine. But Rangers will survive the aoe's better, and end up better on the endfight, and probalby have FE for a few of the enemies there, so they probably get the top pick.

For epic DQ? Well all these classes are too squishy to melee (only barbarians can survive her attacks) so there melee DPS is zero. A ranger generally wins because they get the best ranged DPS, especially if pure.

You are assuming all 3 can hit everything the same % of the time.

Its quite possible on epic to see whiffs from the pally and ranger

Lorien_the_First_One
10-26-2009, 06:33 AM
Nonsense. You guys are out to lunch. Talking about the number of damage numbers you see from a fireball is completely offbase and has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Not any twf can get 8 hits in on 1 mob before the damage number of the 1st hit fades. I know this because I couldn't do it until after I got my 10% speed boost from cap. Before that, hasted + action boost, only 7 at a time would be visible.

Considering since the release of EU the floaty damage numbers aren't in any way in sync with the actual damage only a fool would use them to judge anything (witness the fact you can be getting damge and healing numbers 30+ seconds after combat ends in an intense fight)

Shade
10-26-2009, 06:43 AM
You are assuming all 3 can hit everything the same % of the time.

Its quite possible on epic to see whiffs from the pally and ranger
True..

Those ideals assume a perfect fantasy land where every group has a maxxed warchanter using improved destruction, other players wearing other destruction armor (they stack), the KoTC using the KoTC set for another +4 to hit (assuming its fixed). And always full buffs from everything.

And everyone having the max gear, kensai set bonus, etc ,etc.. Given 100% optimal situations all classes could hit on a 2.. But realistic it will never happen due to the mobs 60-70 ACs.. (tho actually these are pre-nerf numbers I tested, hoping AC wasn't nerfed too badly in the nerf patch)

Realisticly only maxxed-str DPS built Kensai Fighters and Berserker Barbarians with destruciton armor and full ToD raid sets will see good consistant hits on these targets. And ftr may start to weaken after 8-9 mins when his power surges run out.

Monkey_Archer
10-26-2009, 06:53 AM
Realisticly only maxxed-str DPS built Kensai Fighters and Berserker Barbarians with destruciton armor and full ToD raid sets will see good consistant hits on these targets. And ftr may start to weaken after 8-9 mins when his power surges run out.

Even without surges a kensai would still have higher to hit then a barb....

Yargore
10-26-2009, 06:55 AM
KoTC will outdps ftr and ranger on everything the bonus dice works on. And this includes undead.


KoTC only gives bonus damage VS evil outsiders.

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-26-2009, 06:58 AM
Nope. It depends on the quest.

KoTC will outdps ftr and ranger on everything the bonus dice works on. And this includes undead.

So for wizard king.. They win. Especially in shorter fights where they can unload there smites.. Given the quest has 4 shrines, they should have a good time with smites.

Tho for Chains, it's mostly gnolls, and its so long that a ftr will run outa boost. So a ranger with FE Gnoll wins overall. But 1 end boss is a evil outsider, so kotc will hold there own in the end fight.

For offering of blood.. A mix of Drow, Abberations and Vermin.. No ranger will have FE for all of thoses, nor does KoTC work. So fighter takes the lead here.

For DQ1 - Such a large mix of monsters and long quest that no class will truely shine. But Rangers will survive the aoe's better, and end up better on the endfight, and probalby have FE for a few of the enemies there, so they probably get the top pick.

For epic DQ? Well all these classes are too squishy to melee (only barbarians can survive her attacks) so there melee DPS is zero. A ranger generally wins because they get the best ranged DPS, especially if pure.

Shade is 100% correct here. In order:

1) Against Evil Outsiders & Undead, the KotC will out DPS most all Rangers & Fighters.

2) Against Favored Enemies, the Ranger will out DPS most Fighters and Paladins

3) Against "everything else" the Fighter will out DPS most Rangers and Paladins

-I say "most" in all of these situations, as buffs, boosts, and weapons can make a difference.

But assuming similar weapons and appropriate gear, the above should hold.

Now, can a Fighter with Kensai III and a Holy Burst Silver Khopesh of Greater Evil Outsider Bane out DPS a KotC Paladin with a Mineral II Khopesh? Sure, it can happen. But under "normal" circumstances, the above 'guidelines' should hold.

Also, you have to figure that the KotC Paladin is likely going to wear the KotC Set, thus increasing his DPS against EO&Undead. Most Fighters and Rangers aren't going to wear that set (but they could), and that can make a big DPS difference.

Also, the above is basically assuming EVERYONE is TWF with GTWF (or more importantly, everyone is using the same weapon style with the same feats for that style -TWF, THF, or SnB). When you get to THF vs. SnB vs. TFW it gets WAY to complicated.

Shade
10-26-2009, 07:01 AM
Even without surges a kensai would still have higher to hit then a barb....

I'll call BS on on this. I did the numbers before in beta to show it.. So yea your turn, put up the numbers and prove it.
Show it without ToD sets and with. And no kensai doesn't get 2 sets that boost to-hit, Thats gimped, he uses 1 set for dmg and 1 set for hit.
Also factor in TWF Kensai vs THF barb differences, because reaslisticly I never see or much less group with many THF kensai's.

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-26-2009, 07:01 AM
KoTC only gives bonus damage VS evil outsiders.

The KotC Set adds bonus dice vs. Undead.

This set is assumed for any KotC Paladin build.

Shade
10-26-2009, 07:04 AM
KoTC only gives bonus damage VS evil outsiders.

For whatever reason, it works on undead and a few other types it shouldn't work on.

Or so im told. I don't play a paladin.

But im sure it was true at initial release. Sounds like a bug, anyone confirm if it was fixed?

Absolute-Omniscience
10-26-2009, 07:04 AM
Shade is 100% correct here. In order:

1) Against Evil Outsiders & Undead, the KotC will out DPS most all Rangers & Fighters.

2) Against Favored Enemies, the Ranger will out DPS most Fighters and Paladins

3) Against "everything else" the Fighter will out DPS most Rangers and Paladins



Actually, this is incorrect.
Theory based combat (where the Paladin push DS each 3 second, and never has a casting time with the spells)

Paladin>Fighter>Ranger

Vs non-evil outsiders

Fighter>ranger>paladin

Vs undead (unless the fighter uses blunt weapons as their kensai weapon, then he will be behind ranger above, but ahead vs undead)
Ranger>fighter>paladin

Note that I count that the Ranger ALWAYS has FE dmg.

Also note that these statements are based on math, not on feeling.

EDIT: also note that until the Kotc bug is fixed, paladin is nr 1 at undead as well, in theory ofcourse. The paladin is the one that will drop the most between theory and actual combat

Yargore
10-26-2009, 07:06 AM
Shade is 100% correct here. In order:

1) Against Evil Outsiders & Undead, the KotC will out DPS most all Rangers & Fighters.

Against evil outsiders, yes, but not against undead.


Also, you have to figure that the KotC Paladin is likely going to wear the KotC Set, thus increasing his DPS against EO&Undead. Most Fighters and Rangers aren't going to wear that set (but they could), and that can make a big DPS difference.

The set doesn't give extra damage VS undead.
No, fighters and rangers can't get the extra damage from the KoTC set, it requires KoTC rank III.

Shade
10-26-2009, 07:08 AM
Also, you have to figure that the KotC Paladin is likely going to wear the KotC Set, thus increasing his DPS against EO&Undead. Most Fighters and Rangers aren't going to wear that set (but they could), and that can make a big DPS difference.


Actaully the KoTC set only gives bonus diec to Paladins with KoTCIII. Non-kotc get some **** like SR22.

Also I believe the bonus dice may be 100% proc on glancing blows as all other kotc specific dmg is.. So a THF KoTC would be incredibly effective in wiz king, perhaps almost matching a Berserkers peformance without any self damage assuming he could hit often enough.

Yargore
10-26-2009, 07:08 AM
For whatever reason, it works on undead and a few other types it shouldn't work on.

Or so im told. I don't play a paladin.

But im sure it was true at initial release. Sounds like a bug, anyone confirm if it was fixed?

Will test it in a few minutes.

Yargore
10-26-2009, 07:24 AM
Okay, I tested KotC II, and it worked on undead.
Currently leveling a dps paladin, so this makes me happy :)

I hope it's intended, as I was actually going to make a suggestion to merge the 2 PrEs hunter of the dead and KotC.

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-26-2009, 07:28 AM
No, fighters and rangers can't get the extra damage from the KoTC set, it requires KoTC rank III.

Duh! Not enough coffee. :rolleyes:

But

Against evil outsiders, yes, but not against undead.
KotC is working against Undead in the game atm (don't remember if it is the item set or the PrE or both atm... but undead are getting extra dice)... so as long as that is the case, it puts Paladins up on Rangers for DPS output.


Note that I count that the Ranger ALWAYS has FE dmg.

You absolutely CANNOT assume the Ranger always has FE.

Let's look at the new "Epic" dungeons:
Wiz King: Undead, Construct, Elemental (I think that's what the djinn's are)
Chains: Gnolls, Evil Outsider
Offering: Drow, Abberation, Vermin
DQ1: Too many to count.
DQ2: Gnoll, Marilith

So, even leaving out DQ1 & DQ2...
There are 8 or 9 different FE's you have to take to "always" have FE damage, just in those 3 quests alone! A Pure 20 Ranger gets 5 FE's. 5<8, last time I checked, so you absolutely CANNOT assume to always have FE damage. If you stay in the Vale or in Shavarath stuffs, yes you can assume to always have it, but not anymore. So Ranger DPS *MUST* be qualified of FE vs. Non-FE.



Paladin>Fighter>Ranger

Vs non-evil outsiders
You mean "Vs Evil-Outsiders"

And I don't think that is correct.

If Evil Outsider is FE, then Paladin>Ranger>Fighter.
If Evil Outsider is NOT FE, then Paladin>Fighter>Ranger

Monkey_Archer
10-26-2009, 09:46 AM
I'll call BS on on this. I did the numbers before in beta to show it.. So yea your turn, put up the numbers and prove it.
Show it without ToD sets and with. And no kensai doesn't get 2 sets that boost to-hit, Thats gimped, he uses 1 set for dmg and 1 set for hit.
Also factor in TWF Kensai vs THF barb differences, because reaslisticly I never see or much less group with many THF kensai's.

Gear aside they are pretty much equal without using powersurge:
Fighter
+1/+2 (fighter str enhancemtns)
+3 Weapon focus feats
+2 kensai enhancments
---
+6/+7 total
+3 flanking
---
+9/+10 situational


Barb
+6 (12 str rage)
+3 (6 str double frenzy)
+1 capstone
-3 (PA enhancments)
---
+7 total


TOD sets only benefit the fighter, as the kensai neclace does almost nothing for a barb.

Absolute-Omniscience
10-26-2009, 09:57 AM
You absolutely CANNOT assume the Ranger always has FE.

Let's look at the new "Epic" dungeons:
Wiz King: Undead, Construct, Elemental (I think that's what the djinn's are)
Chains: Gnolls, Evil Outsider
Offering: Drow, Abberation, Vermin
DQ1: Too many to count.
DQ2: Gnoll, Marilith


I was being fair to the ranger, and where it really matters you have FE. I don't count random-trash gnoll in chains that you can run past anyways. Even on epic you don't have to kill THAT many.



You mean "Vs Evil-Outsiders"

No, I meant what I said, you just read it wrong.



And I don't think that is correct.

If Evil Outsider is FE, then Paladin>Ranger>Fighter.
If Evil Outsider is NOT FE, then Paladin>Fighter>Ranger

I am certain.

Fighter


Fgt20 Warforged Build
TWF TWF Fighting Style
Weapon
Khopesh Khopesh Weapon Type
1 1 Extra Critical Threat Range
0 0 Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes Yes <Element> Burst
Yes Yes <Element> Blast
No No <Alignment> Burst
No No <Alignment> Blast

Base Damage
5,5 5,5 Weapon base damage
5 5 Weapon modifier
21 10 Strength
8 8 Power attack
2 2 Frenzied berserker set
2 2 Shintao monk set
5 5 Fighter damage enhancements
4 4 Weapon specialization
9 9 Song
1 1 Prayer
No No Bladesworn
62,5 51,5 Total Base

Effects
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 <Element>
2,5 2,5 Slicing
0 0 Other effects
1 1 Force ritual
14 14 Effects Total
76,5 65,5 Total Base With Effects

Critical Hits
10 10 Seeker
5 5 Critical threat range
3 3 Critical multiplier
187,5 154,5 Base critical damage
14 14 Effects
11 11 <Element> Burst
11 11 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
30 30 Total seeker damage
22 22 Critical Effects
253,5 220,5 Critical Total

0 0 Attack 1
76,5 65,5 Attack 2
76,5 65,5 Attack 3
76,5 65,5 Attack 4
76,5 65,5 Attack 5
76,5 65,5 Attack 6
76,5 65,5 Attack 7
76,5 65,5 Attack 8
76,5 65,5 Attack 9
76,5 65,5 Attack 10
76,5 65,5 Attack 11
76,5 65,5 Attack 12
76,5 65,5 Attack 13
76,5 65,5 Attack 14
76,5 65,5 Attack 15
253,5 220,5 Attack 16
253,5 220,5 Attack 17
253,5 220,5 Attack 18
253,5 220,5 Attack 19
267,5 234,5 Attack 20
117,63 101,68 Average Damage

Mob Immunities
0 0 Fortification
0 0 Damage reduction
0 0 Elemental resistance

Relevant Attack Data
5 5 Minutes lapsed
10 10 Number of haste boosts
10 10 Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
30 30 Haste boost
0 0 Number of Smites
0 0 Divine Sacrifice Interval
No No Superior TWF
Yes Yes Quick draw

Attackspeed
10 10 Number of haste boosts used
83 83 Normal
116,25 116,25 Haste/ Other
148,06 148,06 Haste/ Other/ Boost
672,46 672,46 Total Amount of Attacks

79098,36 68372,59 Total Damage
29494,19 Damage/M
263,66 227,91 Damage/S
491,57 Damage Per Second


Ranger


Rng 18 / fgt 2 Warforged Build
TWF TWF Fighting Style
Weapon
Khopesh Khopesh Weapon Type
0 0 Extra Critical Threat Range
0 0 Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes Yes <Element> Burst
Yes Yes <Element> Blast
No No <Alignment> Burst
No No <Alignment> Blast

Base Damage
5,5 5,5 Weapon base damage
5 5 Weapon modifier
17 8 Strength
8 8 Power attack
2 2 Frenzied berserker set
2 2 Shintao monk set
12 12 Favored enemy
2 2 Ram's might
9 9 Song
1 1 Prayer
No No Bladesworn
63,5 54,5 Total Base

Effects
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 <Element>
2,5 2,5 Slicing
1 1 Force ritual
14 14 Effects Total
77,5 68,5 Total Base With Effects

Critical Hits
6 6 Seeker
4 4 Critical threat range
3 3 Critical multiplier
190,5 163,5 Base critical damage
14 14 Effects
11 11 <Element> Burst
11 11 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
18 18 Total seeker damage
22 22 Critical Effects
244,5 217,5 Critical Total

0 0 Attack 1
77,5 68,5 Attack 2
77,5 68,5 Attack 3
77,5 68,5 Attack 4
77,5 68,5 Attack 5
77,5 68,5 Attack 6
77,5 68,5 Attack 7
77,5 68,5 Attack 8
77,5 68,5 Attack 9
77,5 68,5 Attack 10
77,5 68,5 Attack 11
77,5 68,5 Attack 12
77,5 68,5 Attack 13
77,5 68,5 Attack 14
77,5 68,5 Attack 15
77,5 68,5 Attack 16
244,5 217,5 Attack 17
244,5 217,5 Attack 18
244,5 217,5 Attack 19
258,5 231,5 Attack 20
107,73 95,58 Average Damage

Mob Immunities
0 0 Fortification
0 0 Damage reduction
0 0 Elemental resistance

Relevant Attack Data
5 5 Minutes lapsed
5 5 Number of haste boosts
10 10 Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
15 15 Haste boost
0 0 Number of Smites
0 0 Divine Sacrifice Interval
Yes Yes Superior TWF
No No Quick draw

Attackspeed
5 5 Number of haste boosts used
99,6 99,6 Normal
139,5 139,5 Haste/ Other
156,29 156,29 Haste/ Other/ Boost
709,86 709,86 Total Amount of Attacks

76469,36 67844,6 Total Damage
28862,79 Damage/M
254,9 226,15 Damage/S
481,05 Damage Per Second

Emili
10-26-2009, 11:01 AM
I was being fair to the ranger, and where it really matters you have FE. I don't count random-trash gnoll in chains that you can run past anyways. Even on epic you don't have to kill THAT many.


No, I meant what I said, you just read it wrong.



You don't think. But I know.

Fighter


Fgt20 Warforged Build
TWF TWF Fighting Style
Weapon
Khopesh Khopesh Weapon Type
1 1 Extra Critical Threat Range
0 0 Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes Yes <Element> Burst
Yes Yes <Element> Blast
No No <Alignment> Burst
No No <Alignment> Blast

Base Damage
5,5 5,5 Weapon base damage
5 5 Weapon modifier
21 10 Strength
8 8 Power attack
2 2 Frenzied berserker set
2 2 Shintao monk set
5 5 Fighter damage enhancements
4 4 Weapon specialization
9 9 Song
1 1 Prayer
No No Bladesworn
62,5 51,5 Total Base

Effects
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 <Element>
2,5 2,5 Slicing
0 0 Other effects
1 1 Force ritual
14 14 Effects Total
76,5 65,5 Total Base With Effects

Critical Hits
10 10 Seeker
5 5 Critical threat range
3 3 Critical multiplier
187,5 154,5 Base critical damage
14 14 Effects
11 11 <Element> Burst
11 11 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
30 30 Total seeker damage
22 22 Critical Effects
253,5 220,5 Critical Total

0 0 Attack 1
76,5 65,5 Attack 2
76,5 65,5 Attack 3
76,5 65,5 Attack 4
76,5 65,5 Attack 5
76,5 65,5 Attack 6
76,5 65,5 Attack 7
76,5 65,5 Attack 8
76,5 65,5 Attack 9
76,5 65,5 Attack 10
76,5 65,5 Attack 11
76,5 65,5 Attack 12
76,5 65,5 Attack 13
76,5 65,5 Attack 14
76,5 65,5 Attack 15
253,5 220,5 Attack 16
253,5 220,5 Attack 17
253,5 220,5 Attack 18
253,5 220,5 Attack 19
267,5 234,5 Attack 20
117,63 101,68 Average Damage

Mob Immunities
0 0 Fortification
0 0 Damage reduction
0 0 Elemental resistance

Relevant Attack Data
5 5 Minutes lapsed
10 10 Number of haste boosts
10 10 Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
30 30 Haste boost
0 0 Number of Smites
0 0 Divine Sacrifice Interval
No No Superior TWF
Yes Yes Quick draw

Attackspeed
10 10 Number of haste boosts used
83 83 Normal
116,25 116,25 Haste/ Other
148,06 148,06 Haste/ Other/ Boost
672,46 672,46 Total Amount of Attacks

79098,36 68372,59 Total Damage
29494,19 Damage/M
263,66 227,91 Damage/S
491,57 Damage Per Second


Ranger


Rng 18 / fgt 2 Warforged Build
TWF TWF Fighting Style
Weapon
Khopesh Khopesh Weapon Type
0 0 Extra Critical Threat Range
0 0 Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes Yes <Element> Burst
Yes Yes <Element> Blast
No No <Alignment> Burst
No No <Alignment> Blast

Base Damage
5,5 5,5 Weapon base damage
5 5 Weapon modifier
17 8 Strength
8 8 Power attack
2 2 Frenzied berserker set
2 2 Shintao monk set
12 12 Favored enemy
2 2 Ram's might
9 9 Song
1 1 Prayer
No No Bladesworn
63,5 54,5 Total Base

Effects
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 <Element>
2,5 2,5 Slicing
1 1 Force ritual
14 14 Effects Total
77,5 68,5 Total Base With Effects

Critical Hits
6 6 Seeker
4 4 Critical threat range
3 3 Critical multiplier
190,5 163,5 Base critical damage
14 14 Effects
11 11 <Element> Burst
11 11 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
18 18 Total seeker damage
22 22 Critical Effects
244,5 217,5 Critical Total

0 0 Attack 1
77,5 68,5 Attack 2
77,5 68,5 Attack 3
77,5 68,5 Attack 4
77,5 68,5 Attack 5
77,5 68,5 Attack 6
77,5 68,5 Attack 7
77,5 68,5 Attack 8
77,5 68,5 Attack 9
77,5 68,5 Attack 10
77,5 68,5 Attack 11
77,5 68,5 Attack 12
77,5 68,5 Attack 13
77,5 68,5 Attack 14
77,5 68,5 Attack 15
77,5 68,5 Attack 16
244,5 217,5 Attack 17
244,5 217,5 Attack 18
244,5 217,5 Attack 19
258,5 231,5 Attack 20
107,73 95,58 Average Damage

Mob Immunities
0 0 Fortification
0 0 Damage reduction
0 0 Elemental resistance

Relevant Attack Data
5 5 Minutes lapsed
5 5 Number of haste boosts
10 10 Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
15 15 Haste boost
0 0 Number of Smites
0 0 Divine Sacrifice Interval
Yes Yes Superior TWF
No No Quick draw

Attackspeed
5 5 Number of haste boosts used
99,6 99,6 Normal
139,5 139,5 Haste/ Other
156,29 156,29 Haste/ Other/ Boost
709,86 709,86 Total Amount of Attacks

76469,36 67844,6 Total Damage
28862,79 Damage/M
254,9 226,15 Damage/S
481,05 Damage Per Second

I concur... from practice these numbers seem very legit. Given the same race my human 20th level kensai III normally dps outperforms my human 18ranger/2/fighter tempest III given the same like gear - with or without PrE sets on. Now Emili sits unbuffed at 34 str right now (goal is 38 before rage, etc... ) and Einin just 31 str unbuffed (goal 34 - will be nice tossing rams and rage on top that :) ) but still the 2 points should be made up for in FE you'd think...

Another assumption some people are making here is that the 8-9 min of Kensai boosts run dry. Under normal raid circumstances it does not... under elite or epic. That all depends on time to take down the boss. I have indeed run out of kensai boost on the boss in Elite TOD... as a couple so just my kensai and a WF Frenzied Barbarian (as only two of us had boots) even the WF barb run out of rage... and he told me flat out most the damage was coming from me after that, can only assume he went in short of shrined. The boss just had that many HPs. Kensai "To-Hit" standing without the boost even is extremely high... sporting rages and madstone even moreso.

Personally I do feel Kensai III payback is really not worth the 18 levels - if you are 18 levels though you may as well do 20 for the capstone as 10% is where it's at. A 12 kensai II/tempest I/2 monk (or rogue) however would sport a more efficient DPS/Survivable character imo. then either a pure ranger or pure fighter.

My view point on KOTC III so far has no conclusion... I will tell you this though, at KOTC II - which is mine so far... and this is comming from a button pushing, flanking, tactic fiend... Keeping a Pally up to par (adding zeal + divine might + divine favor) bloody be a pain arse... yes it is only 2 more buttons I know but with so many keyed already just run out of quick accessible space on the keyboard(keypad).

Btw... is nice to see another European. ;)

Carlll
10-26-2009, 11:27 AM
Rangers are in pretty bad shape. They used to be really really high DPS, even out-DPSing Fighters against non-FE (when ignoring haste boosts). However the reaction from the devs to that was to buff Fighters and Paladins to the moon and now a Fighter out-DPSs a Ranger even against FE. A Paladin 20 out-DPSs a Ranger without any Prestige Enhancements and with KotC it's no comparison really.
There is very little reason to roll a Ranger unless going for the magic 18/1/1 split which is still an excellent allrounder.

Yargore
10-26-2009, 11:38 AM
Rangers are in pretty bad shape.

Nah, rangers are still overpowered if build and played right.

70 AC, incredible self healing and 450 DPS, yes please.

Carlll
10-26-2009, 11:44 AM
Nah, rangers are still overpowered if build and played right.

70 AC, incredible self healing and 450 DPS, yes please.
The self-healing is nice in a pinch but you cant keep healing for very long. 700 mana for Maximized, Quickened Cure Serious only go so far...
70 AC only with Monk splash, and yes, the 18/1/1 build is nice. But if only splashing Monk and not Rogue i can just make an 18/2 Fighter or Paladin who still does higher DPS with similar AC.
Btw, Paladin can self-heal too. They might have a harder time fitting the feats but im not convinced that Quicken is a good choice anyways.

78mackson
10-26-2009, 11:46 AM
If these are the feats you're taking then yes a fighter would be on top. :eek:

Rangers have evasion, can self heal, AC while duel wielding. But in the end, both have their good points and bad. It's up to how it's played.

My mutted out ranger has AC in the 60's (low end by the newer standards) 34 Str (hits like a mule) and 610 unbuffed HP.

The +8 Str boost fighters gets gives +4 to hit (if they need that with all of the weapons feats they take, it's time to reroll) and +4 to damage. The +1 to crit range is really nice, but as we get in to harder stuff fort is starting to play it's hand more and straight damage is looking like the future.

Just play what you want, have fun with it. It's a game.

Quicken + empower heal is the best "optional" dps feats a ranger(or palla or bard) can get. If you dont know why, then you clearly havent tried it, a ranger who needs a nanny is a very poor build ranger and deserves a re-roll.

DPS-Fighters(since we are still plagued by the sheeld-types without intimi) do way more dps then your ranger and VS all mobs.

...and btw... A correct played paladin can burst down enemies in a tempo a ranger can´t handle either...

Twerpp
10-26-2009, 11:49 AM
With most people agreeing that one class or the other is better only in certain situations, maybe they are finally balanced.

Emili
10-26-2009, 11:54 AM
Rangers are in pretty bad shape. They used to be really really high DPS, even out-DPSing Fighters against non-FE (when ignoring haste boosts). However the reaction from the devs to that was to buff Fighters and Paladins to the moon and now a Fighter out-DPSs a Ranger even against FE. A Paladin 20 out-DPSs a Ranger without any Prestige Enhancements and with KotC it's no comparison really.
There is very little reason to roll a Ranger unless going for the magic 18/1/1 split which is still an excellent allrounder.
Not really... an str based ranger is very competivie DPS wise, Pally seems to run thiner then a ranger come stats ... the threshold for good straight number DPS on them lay in the pivot points balanced on Str and Cha before hand. Your typical str ranger is going to sit at 32-34 str + 13 damages from FE + PA ... the pally generaly lays back a point or two off str ... needs DF + DM and the PrE's specific enough that it's like having one favored enemy. Really it comes down to total build but Rangers are extremely competitve among the melee.

78mackson
10-26-2009, 11:56 AM
The self-healing is nice in a pinch but you cant keep healing for very long. 700 mana for Maximized, Quickened Cure Serious only go so far...
70 AC only with Monk splash, and yes, the 18/1/1 build is nice. But if only splashing Monk and not Rogue i can just make an 18/2 Fighter or Paladin who still does higher DPS with similar AC.
Btw, Paladin can self-heal too. They might have a harder time fitting the feats but im not convinced that Quicken is a good choice anyways.

Try get some concs n torc and your 700 sp will be a winner, pots arent exactly no rarities either.. doubt u have to use your selfheal as the only way of getting healed.. but its way betetr then jump around enemies and hoping for a heal...

a splashed ranger does more dps then a non-splashed one. +2 FE vs 15%haste boost + 1d6+3SA(n loads of other goodies like fast selfheal(more feats makes that possible), high AC etc)

Anneliese
10-26-2009, 11:57 AM
Also Paladins can switch out their specific-enemy-based PrestigeEnhancements cheap every 3 days, since KOTC and the Undead one require 0 feats.

uhgungawa
10-26-2009, 12:00 PM
One thing to remember in a Fighter vs Ranger is rangers get evasion. Yes, someone is going to say "well splash monk or rogue" But that means no capstone, no attack speed bonus, less DPS.

So you can have faster swings or evasion on a fighter, but not both.

78mackson
10-26-2009, 12:05 PM
Also Paladins can switch out their specific-enemy-based PrestigeEnhancements cheap every 3 days, since KOTC and the Undead one require 0 feats.

what does the undead-**** give you?.. it turn you into a WF basicly.. but thats about it.

Angelus_dead
10-26-2009, 12:06 PM
Not any twf can get 8 hits in on 1 mob before the damage number of the 1st hit fades.
You don't actually know how the combat display is limited. You are assuming it is a better-programmed piece of software than it actually is. It is easy for the majority of TWF characters to attack faster than the combat display can handle.

It's as if you're bragging that your car can break the speed limit...

Emili
10-26-2009, 12:07 PM
One thing to remember in a Fighter vs Ranger is rangers get evasion. Yes, someone is going to say "well splash monk or rogue" But that means no capstone, no attack speed bonus, less DPS.

So you can have faster swings or evasion on a fighter, but not both.... and that is why in back of my mind the sweet spot which still appears at level 12, a well thought out KensaiII/Tempest I or KotcII/Tempest I with an evasion class splash keeps running thru my brain... I'd build one but as stands right now having 3 twf khopesh builds and 3 twf rapier builds and a twf scimi build, the thought investments irritate me. ;)

Yargore
10-26-2009, 12:21 PM
... and that is why in back of my mind the sweet spot which still appears at level 12, a well thought out KensaiII/Tempest I or KotcII/Tempest I with an evasion class splash keeps running thru my brain... I'd build one but as stands right now having 3 twf khopesh builds and 3 twf rapier builds and a twf scimi build, the thought investments irritate me. ;)

aka The Monster.

Carlll
10-26-2009, 01:06 PM
Try get some concs n torc and your 700 sp will be a winner, pots arent exactly no rarities either.. doubt u have to use your selfheal as the only way of getting healed..
The Torc triggers 5% of the time and gives about 25 mana, i believe. Max Quick CSWs costs 60 mana, so the Torc would have to trigger 2.5 times to pay for it. That's 50 hits.
Every 50 hits you could toss a heal... and about 10 from your starting mana. Not that impressive if you ask me. And wearing the Torc will cost you DPS.
It gets a bit better if you also include CO but not much.

Of course if you drink mana pots with your Ranger the picture completely changes.

Dont get me wrong, it's nice to have those heals for emergencies but i think they are not a big deal as they are made out to be. A bit better than Paladin's LoHs but that's it (and Paladins can cast CSW too!). And noone ever claimed "Paladins are uber because they have Lay on Hands!".


Not really... an str based ranger is very competivie DPS wise, Pally seems to run thiner then a ranger come stats ... the threshold for good straight number DPS on them lay in the pivot points balanced on Str and Cha before hand. Your typical str ranger is going to sit at 32-34 str + 13 damages from FE + PA ... the pally generaly lays back a point or two off str ... needs DF + DM and the PrE's specific enough that it's like having one favored enemy. Really it comes down to total build but Rangers are extremely competitve among the melee.
Of course a DPS-Ranger will be Strength based, that doesnt change the fact that a DPS-Paladin will blow him away. The Ranger gets +2 Strength from Ram's over the Paladin and that's it.
Paladins do WAY higher DPS than Rangers against Evil Outsiders.

Anneliese
10-26-2009, 01:24 PM
what does the undead-**** give you?.. it turn you into a WF basicly.. but thats about it.

Also Ghosttouch and a DC30 (will-save) disruption on a 20.

Granted, not awesome..but nice.

Yargore
10-26-2009, 08:08 PM
Of course a DPS-Ranger will be Strength based, that doesnt change the fact that a DPS-Paladin will blow him away. The Ranger gets +2 Strength from Ram's over the Paladin and that's it.
Paladins do WAY higher DPS than Rangers against Evil Outsiders.

You forget superior twf.

Also, paladins are very limited, they more or less deal unmatched DPS to EOs (and undeads atm, but that is probably not intended), but falls behind vs everything else.
They are also dependant on lots of short buffs that needs to be recast.

Don't get me wrong though, I like paladins and am currently leveling one.