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Pyromaniac
10-25-2009, 04:11 PM
Given its taking forever to fill some raids, I think its time to allow hirelings in raids.

Since hirelings are not that skilled, perhaps allowing enough of them to exceed a 12 person group would make sense. i.e. 8 players can bring in up to 6 hirelings with them.

53 minutes to fill a shroud run...sigh.

Tanka
10-25-2009, 06:12 PM
No. A hireling will have nowhere near the equipment or AI level required to be in a raid.

sephiroth1084
10-25-2009, 06:15 PM
No. A hireling will have nowhere near the equipment or AI level required to be in a raid.

Can you imagine a hireling cleric trying to heal through part 4 or 5 of the Shroud? They cast slower, can't choose their targets efficiently, don't know when to mass heal and when to spot, and heal for less than a real healer would.

Gadget2775
10-25-2009, 06:16 PM
Wow. Just gona throw out my first objection and leave the rest for later...What happens when someone gets impatient and starts conjuring without permission?

Tanka
10-25-2009, 06:16 PM
Can you imagine a hireling cleric trying to heal through part 4 or 5 of the Shroud? They cast slower, can't choose their targets efficiently, don't know when to mass heal and when to spot, and heal for less than a real healer would.
Plus the lack of Heavy Fortification or any SP enhancing items would mean they'd be useless in very short order.

Nezichiend
10-25-2009, 06:16 PM
no. ;)

bobbryan2
10-25-2009, 06:19 PM
Plus the lack of Heavy Fortification or any SP enhancing items would mean they'd be useless in very short order.

That's a reason to 'not' add them? Weird.

sephiroth1084
10-25-2009, 06:24 PM
That's a reason to 'not' add them? Weird.
Do you want PUGs who don't feel like waiting to go with a hireling, only to find out 5, 10, 15, 30, 45 minutes into your run that you can't complete because you brought along a worthless sac of AI?

I know that I don't want to have that argument every time I sit around waiting for the last 2 spots to fill for a raid. What raid can you think of in which a hireling would be any use?

bobbryan2
10-25-2009, 06:40 PM
Do you want PUGs who don't feel like waiting to go with a hireling, only to find out 5, 10, 15, 30, 45 minutes into your run that you can't complete because you brought along a worthless sac of AI?

I know that I don't want to have that argument every time I sit around waiting for the last 2 spots to fill for a raid. What raid can you think of in which a hireling would be any use?

Well.. ToD for starters. Sit 'em around the alter and have them spam heals on the main tank for a while.

VoN 5 - getting the levers pulled. And healing main tank in part 6.

Additional melees would be somewhat useful in most of the big bad fights.

Hound - Healing dogs

VoD - healing main tank (probably would die during fire bats, but eh)

Just off the top of my head.

Tanka
10-25-2009, 06:44 PM
That's a reason to 'not' add them? Weird.
Did you really just ask that question?


Well.. ToD for starters. Sit 'em around the alter and have them spam heals on the main tank for a while.
Random Orthon aggro = dead hireling. Oh, and limited SP and zero scrolls means they quickly overheal and are OOM.


VoN 5 - getting the levers pulled. And healing main tank in part 6.
Levers are easy. And people still use Hero Method in VoN6?


Additional melees would be somewhat useful in most of the big bad fights.
Not if they have miniscule HP, improper weaponry and lack Heavy Fort.


Hound - Healing dogs
See ToD.


VoD - healing main tank (probably would die during fire bats, but eh)
See ToD.

bobbryan2
10-25-2009, 07:10 PM
Random Orthon aggro = dead hireling. Oh, and limited SP and zero scrolls means they quickly overheal and are OOM.


Luckily... orthons don't aggro randomly.... soo.. I guess that point and all your others that said 'see ToD' are out.

I'm not saying they're as good as a real person. I am saying they're better than an empty spot.

Can't believe you're even debating that.

Tanka
10-25-2009, 07:24 PM
Luckily... orthons don't aggro randomly....
More randomly than I'd like, yes.


I'm not saying they're as good as a real person. I am saying they're better than an empty spot.

Can't believe you're even debating that.
Of course I'm debating that. But I run with shortman raids all the time. Better to be shortmanning than dragging a gimp's stone.

Angelus_dead
10-25-2009, 08:28 PM
Given its taking forever to fill some raids, I think its time to allow hirelings in raids.
If that is something the developers would like to address as a problem, the effective approach would be to start by making raids scale down in difficulty for smaller groups, just like a normal dungeon does.

Here's a large thread on that topic:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=193437


Since hirelings are not that skilled, perhaps allowing enough of them to exceed a 12 person group would make sense. i.e. 8 players can bring in up to 6 hirelings with them.
Hirelings cannot assign loot from chests, which is one of the key reasons to even want to fill a raid.

Angelus_dead
10-25-2009, 08:30 PM
Additional melees would be somewhat useful in most of the big bad fights.
Hound - Healing dogs
VoD - healing main tank (probably would die during fire bats, but eh)
Just off the top of my head.
If you think hirelings would be helpful there, bring one to the boss fight of New Invasion or Bastion of Power and see how well he holds up.

sephiroth1084
10-25-2009, 08:47 PM
Luckily... orthons don't aggro randomly.... soo.. I guess that point and all your others that said 'see ToD' are out.


Sure they do. New orthons teleport in, and start beating on whatever is nearby. I'm constantly pulling orthons off of the clerics in ToD when I'm not boots tank or WF babysitting. And I've noticed orthons and bearded devils teleporting straight to the back lines in the other Amrath quests, going for the clerics and casters.

A hireling would be dead very swiftly in such an instance.


If you think hirelings would be helpful there, bring one to the boss fight of New Invasion or Bastion of Power and see how well he holds up.
I'd really like to see someone document such an attempt.

bobbryan2
10-25-2009, 09:57 PM
If you think hirelings would be helpful there, bring one to the boss fight of New Invasion or Bastion of Power and see how well he holds up.

I... have. At least in Bastion. Duoed it with a hireling. And for the record, I think it would be much harder to duo bastion with a hireling than 11 man a ToD with an extra heal spammer.

I'm not even saying that it would necessarily be a good change. I am saying that

a) Hirelings wouldn't be useless
b) even if they were, that's not a sufficient reason to disallow them

All in all... I don't think it's that big of a deal regardless.

bobbryan2
10-25-2009, 09:58 PM
Sure they do. New orthons teleport in, and start beating on whatever is nearby. I'm constantly pulling orthons off of the clerics in ToD when I'm not boots tank or WF babysitting. And I've noticed orthons and bearded devils teleporting straight to the back lines in the other Amrath quests, going for the clerics and casters.


Here's a hint. If you can figure out how they aggro... it's NOT random. Bearded devils aggro randomly (with a greater chance of aggroing things further away from them) Orthons are much much more predictable.

arminius
10-25-2009, 10:12 PM
I... have. At least in Bastion. Duoed it with a hireling. And for the record, I think it would be much harder to duo bastion with a hireling than 11 man a ToD with an extra heal spammer.

I'm not even saying that it would necessarily be a good change. I am saying that

a) Hirelings wouldn't be useless
b) even if they were, that's not a sufficient reason to disallow them

All in all... I don't think it's that big of a deal regardless.

Congrats on duoing Bastion with a hireling, I'd never even think to try that.

My use of hirelings has been limited to slayer areas. I noticed one thing immediately from various experiments.

Duoing with a hireling is way, way easier than adding a hireling as a 6th in a group, due to scaling. While duoing, the hireling dies very, very rarely, maybe once in every 4 runs of Vale Slayer. As the 6th person in the group, the hireling died in EVERY FIGHT, even though the hireling and I would have a Vale section to ourselves, so that no one else interfered.

Now, scaling doesn't affect raids. But I think the example is instructive. Hirelings make a great addition if and only if the game is scaled down to their level. On a normal, non-scaled run of anything, they just get overwhelmed and are not worth the babysitting trouble at all, being more of an overall detriment to the party than an extremely poor player. At least in my experience.

_

Solmage
10-25-2009, 11:16 PM
Meh - I wouldn't mind it provided the group leader had a flag to open the use of hirelings. In some raids this could help out:

- Sometimes just need a switch puller (von5), even when the cap was 10 we were running this without clerics. But these days, when you want to run this at like level (say 8-10) it can be impossible to find clerics for it, just so they can press the pretty runes.

- in the sub a static teleport-to-me-walking-scroll-like cleric is more than enough for any competent melee to solo, even without any AC.

- Hound, 1 hireling cleric in full manual mode can heal 1 dog on normal. Sure, a single good cleric can heal all 3, but sometimes you don't have that luxury. This is particularly true if the person controlling the hireling can also use heal scrolls, like say my paladin or sorcerer.

- ToD - we short man this when there's not enough guildies, and usually just single cleric this anyway. Taking a hireling would allow us to help heal the main tank in full manual mode while being invisible and displaced.

I'd never bring them to VoD or Shroud or DQ, but that's where a flag from the party leader would come in handy. I'll also admit in ToD it'd be risky and shouldn't be done without a caster monitoring orthons and using FtS instantly, but the potential for benefit is there.