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Quikster
10-25-2009, 12:00 PM
My paly just took DoS III on live last night. For some reason I'm under the impression that DoS III hate is broken. (I thought I had a thread on it but cant find it now) Is it working on Lama?

Absolute-Omniscience
10-25-2009, 12:04 PM
It is the Defender hate that was broken. And hopefully it has been fixed with mod 10, can't confirm it though.

Quikster
10-25-2009, 12:08 PM
It is the Defender hate that was broken. And hopefully it has been fixed with mod 10, can't confirm it though.

Hmm ok so only the fighter Defender hate was broken then. I see. I gotta give some props to a guildie for holding agro in the Tower then :D It will go to his head......

Junts
10-25-2009, 12:09 PM
This is wrong; dos 3 hate is also broken on live.

When you want to hate tank, use improved stance. I don't know if its fixed on Lam.

Cavalier
10-25-2009, 12:17 PM
This is wrong; dos 3 hate is also broken on live.

When you want to hate tank, use improved stance. I don't know if its fixed on Lam.

I hold agro with my Pally DoS III easily enough against Horoth. Even 2 KotC Pallys dual wielding behind him don't take my agro away.

Quikster
10-25-2009, 12:17 PM
This is wrong; dos 3 hate is also broken on live.

When you want to hate tank, use improved stance. I don't know if its fixed on Lam.

Grrrr! If I could give you neg rep I would (even though it aint your fault ;) )

OK then question stands. Anyone know?

Quikster
10-25-2009, 12:20 PM
I hold agro with my Pally DoS III easily enough against Horoth. Even 2 KotC Pallys dual wielding behind him don't take my agro away.

But is the HATE working. No offense, but this doesnt tell me either way. I dont know any of the builds, buffs, weapons, players etc.

Ive seen massive dps machines not steal agro, and wimpy ones steal agro in various raids, from various builds.

We should have a hate meter, or someway to measure it with all the new ui changes.

Angelus_dead
10-25-2009, 01:03 PM
We should have a hate meter, or someway to measure it with all the new ui changes.
The best way to add that (without making changes to the game system as a whole) is to put in a special practice dungeon containing some straw "Training Dummy" mobs, who do not attack. Instead you can simply attack them, and then talk to the dummy to see a list of how much damage (and hate) was caused by each player (and in how much time). There would be an ogre dummy, skeleton dummy, halfling dummy, etc.

hydra_ex
10-25-2009, 01:09 PM
The best way to add that (without making changes to the game system as a whole) is to put in a special practice dungeon containing some straw "Training Dummy" mobs, who do not attack. Instead you can simply attack them, and then talk to the dummy to see a list of how much damage (and hate) was caused by each player (and in how much time). There would be an ogre dummy, skeleton dummy, halfling dummy, etc.

All I needed to hear :)

Quikster
10-25-2009, 01:36 PM
The best way to add that (without making changes to the game system as a whole) is to put in a special practice dungeon containing some straw "Training Dummy" mobs, who do not attack. Instead you can simply attack them, and then talk to the dummy to see a list of how much damage (and hate) was caused by each player (and in how much time). There would be an ogre dummy, skeleton dummy, halfling dummy, etc.

Yeah not really interested in one being added now, i just meant with all the other stuff that was added, they shoulda had some type of mechanic other than the mob turning and pwning ya :)

Junts
10-25-2009, 03:36 PM
My dos3 can also hold aggro on horoth, but holds it far ,far easier in improved stance than he does in superior stance

from the conflciting reports i have started thinking DDO may have problems with stacking lots of hate mods together; its generally somewhat better geared tanks talking about the issue, and im starting to think that having set bonuses on top of the 200% might be whats causing it to not work right.

Quikster
10-25-2009, 07:23 PM
My dos3 can also hold aggro on horoth, but holds it far ,far easier in improved stance than he does in superior stance

from the conflciting reports i have started thinking DDO may have problems with stacking lots of hate mods together; its generally somewhat better geared tanks talking about the issue, and im starting to think that having set bonuses on top of the 200% might be whats causing it to not work right.

Well my paly has no other hate to stack other than the enhancement. So Ill play with it and let you know if I have issues. I dont have a huge problem holding agro in improved stance. Every once in a while a str ranger with the right FE will steal it. Intim usually gets it right back for me till I can get some hate built again. I dont have a few items for ac needs so I only top out in the low 80's depending on buffs, so the superior stance ac boost would help, but I can get by without it on normal and hard stuff.

Shade
10-25-2009, 07:28 PM
It's defientely bugged.

I've never had a DoS or Stalwart defender be able to hold agro from any of my barbarians. On any boss in ToD or elsewhere. And i've grouped with at least 10 different ones that use it.

And while i might do double there DPS.. I don't do triple or more.

It might give some amount more agro, but it aint +200%. That amount of hate would be a dead lock even on a poorly build low str sword and board defender.

The 20% from leviks set seems to make a serious difference, as my 1 dwarf barb that has it keeps The shadowmaster locked 100% of the time vs some of the top DPS players on khyber (including maxxed kotc, other berserkers and monster builds), while my WF Berserker with similar dps and both shintao sets and ravager, critting for 620+ will let agro slip for a second while re-activing frenzy midbattle (as it takes about 3-4 seconds ot hit frenzy, death frenzy and dmg boost)

vyvy3369
10-25-2009, 07:28 PM
Hmm ok so only the fighter Defender hate was broken then. I see. I gotta give some props to a guildie for holding agro in the Tower then :D It will go to his head......
Pft, it's far too late for that Quik

Quikster
10-25-2009, 07:42 PM
It's defientely bugged.

I've never had a DoS or Stalwart defender be able to hold agro from any of my barbarians. On any boss in ToD or elsewhere. And i've grouped with at least 10 different ones that use it.

And while i might do double there DPS.. I don't do triple or more.

It might give some amount more agro, but it aint +200%. That amount of hate would be a dead lock even on a poorly build low str sword and board defender.

The 20% from leviks set seems to make a serious difference, as my 1 dwarf barb that has it keeps The shadowmaster locked 100% of the time vs some of the top DPS players on khyber (including maxxed kotc, other berserkers and monster builds), while my WF Berserker with similar dps and both shintao sets and ravager, critting for 620+ will let agro slip for a second while re-activing frenzy midbattle (as it takes about 3-4 seconds ot hit frenzy, death frenzy and dmg boost)

I dunno shade. My S&B paly does pretty much **** for damage. Especially compared to my dps builds, none of which are thf. (Insert crack at shades bias to thf here :) )

Seriously though, I dont think it takes a whole lot to do a bunch more dps than a s&b with 30 str, dmII, unhasted and usually not boosted, in CE stance, half the time with no bard songs because the bard is scared to get close enough to sing (wimp).

Not saying it works or not, but if a fully raged, hasted, pa, high end dps barb comes in, even with a lot of hate it might not take long to steal agro.

Quikster
10-25-2009, 07:42 PM
Pft, it's far too late for that Quik

My human rogue laughs at your hate :) I mean cmon, a bow? You let me steal agro with a bow??????

Junts
10-25-2009, 07:48 PM
It's defientely bugged.

I've never had a DoS or Stalwart defender be able to hold agro from any of my barbarians. On any boss in ToD or elsewhere. And i've grouped with at least 10 different ones that use it.

And while i might do double there DPS.. I don't do triple or more.

It might give some amount more agro, but it aint +200%. That amount of hate would be a dead lock even on a poorly build low str sword and board defender.

The 20% from leviks set seems to make a serious difference, as my 1 dwarf barb that has it keeps The shadowmaster locked 100% of the time vs some of the top DPS players on khyber (including maxxed kotc, other berserkers and monster builds), while my WF Berserker with similar dps and both shintao sets and ravager, critting for 620+ will let agro slip for a second while re-activing frenzy midbattle (as it takes about 3-4 seconds ot hit frenzy, death frenzy and dmg boost)



I agree; my paladin uses 30% leviks bonus and that alone used to be adequate to hold aggro with only a little bit of a head start against most dps when coupled with divine righteousness .. the stance bonuses do not seem to be helping nearly as much as advertised, but improved definitely works better .. I just haev the highest dps rotate out to whack orthons when there's too many unstoned and it's not too serious a problem.

Shade
10-25-2009, 07:48 PM
I dunno shade. My S&B paly does pretty much **** for damage. Especially compared to my dps builds, none of which are thf. (Insert crack at shades bias to thf here :) )

Seriously though, I dont think it takes a whole lot to do a bunch more dps than a s&b with 30 str, dmII, unhasted and usually not boosted, in CE stance, half the time with no bard songs because the bard is scared to get close enough to sing (wimp).

Not saying it works or not, but if a fully raged, hasted, pa, high end dps barb comes in, even with a lot of hate it might not take long to steal agro.

Well u said u being using the tier 2 stance right?

Per junts,, that one works.. Just not the tier 3 ones.

Yea come to think of t.. You have to hit for about 80+ average dmg a swing sword n board to do about half my barbs dps lol (as he does about 170 per swing averaging in crits and swings faster then SnB can).. Not an easy task. But only about 50-60 to do a 1/3rd.

Junts
10-25-2009, 07:54 PM
Well u said u being using the tier 2 stance right?

Per junts,, that one works.. Just not the tier 3 ones.

Yea come to think of t.. You have to hit for about 80+ average dmg a swing sword n board to do about half my barbs dps lol (as he does about 170 per swing averaging in crits and swings faster then SnB can).. Not an easy task. But only about 50-60 to do a 1/3rd.

a big problem a lot of s/b tanks have is that they aren't even trying to do damage .. its a lot easier to do it with a 38 str, divine might 3 using khopesh type than it is with a lot of the /2 rogue builds who don't have the feats to have a decent straight up dps. S/B actually swings a lot faster than you think; my paladin's dps is around 160 dps with a min2, and about 200 on stuff that takes lightning damage. That is only around 1/3 of a top end dps build, but with +200 stance it should be roughly equivalent, and 15% more from the dos ring set bonus should be enough to push it past all but the very highest dps out there.

The fact that in superior stance it takes a high dps barb or fighter type about 1 minute to catch me with a 45 second head start suggests that the superior stance simply isn't working as advertised. . you should need to be an outstandingly geared kotc3 or fb to pull aggro from 160 at +230% . . and it's simply not true.

Quikster
10-25-2009, 07:55 PM
Well u said u being using the tier 2 stance right?

Per junts,, that one works.. Just not the tier 3 ones.

Yea come to think of t.. You have to hit for about 80+ average dmg a swing sword n board to do about half my barbs dps lol (as he does about 170 per swing averaging in crits and swings faster then SnB can).. Not an easy task. But only about 50-60 to do a 1/3rd.

Yeah Ive been using two, but, many of the peeps I run with dont have boots on all their alts. We try to use an ac tank every run, and have some better suited for hard and elite for others. So we rotate which alts we bring in, often times our boots melees on elite so it doesnt take forever. Which means when I tank on normal or hard, we are using the range till he banishes, then melee him for a min, back out and range again. This gives me plenty of agro built, and after he throws a banish I usually get a haste, recitation, hit my hate boost and haste boost. So holding agro in two hasnt been a huge issue, however with a fully twinked out barb on the other side the whole time, I'd prolly have issues, and end up doing a lot of intimi, hence lowering my agro even more.

Im not saying its not doable, but I would like to have an idea if I use the III stance, if I am going to have more issues holding agro, and if it is fixed next week or if I need to look at other options....

Junts
10-25-2009, 08:01 PM
Just have the highest dps you are worried about rotate out any time there's too many non-stoned orthons at once, and you shouldn't have any problem staying ahead .. even 30 seconds out at a time pretty much negates any issue you might have with hate.

Ranmaru2
10-25-2009, 11:36 PM
Wouldn't an efficient test on both Live and Lam be to get an Orthon (like argothony, sp?) in Rainbow, hit him 5x with all your hate bonuses, add up the damage and then have someone do (is it 80% or 150%?) of that and see if they pull aggro or not with the improved and the superior stance.

if you know how much hate you should have then it'd be easy to figure out, no?

Or could use an orthon, charm him, heal him and then let the other person attack (or do it on the rainbow orthon since he is oranged named).

Junts
10-26-2009, 12:21 AM
Wouldn't an efficient test on both Live and Lam be to get an Orthon (like argothony, sp?) in Rainbow, hit him 5x with all your hate bonuses, add up the damage and then have someone do (is it 80% or 150%?) of that and see if they pull aggro or not with the improved and the superior stance.

if you know how much hate you should have then it'd be easy to figure out, no?

Or could use an orthon, charm him, heal him and then let the other person attack (or do it on the rainbow orthon since he is oranged named).

the uncharm would probably reset the aggro ..

I'd say that a reaver's refuge frost giant is probably a better target for such testing.

sephiroth1084
10-26-2009, 01:40 AM
the uncharm would probably reset the aggro ..

I'd say that a reaver's refuge frost giant is probably a better target for such testing.

I was going to suggest that very thing!

Shade
10-26-2009, 06:50 AM
Best test would be any high hp mob that only melee's and doesn't teleport.

As teleports reset agro.

Also dps agro fades slowly over time.. So both chars would need to be doing decent DPS and not taking several minuits to do whatever % of dmg.

Judo
10-26-2009, 07:05 AM
i have a straight 20 pally, with dos3, and ive never had agro stolen from me when fully set to hate, now i cant prove that the 200% works, but the leviks and divine righteousness certainly do, and im sword and board, i do have a 34 str not including divine might, so obviously i cant tell you for sure if it works, except to say that if i start at same time with a frenzied berzerker, without a headstart, the fb always gets the hate...with that, id say its broke

Quikster
10-26-2009, 09:38 AM
Hoping a dev can chime in this morning sometime on this........

Zaal
10-26-2009, 10:19 AM
Yeah not really interested in one being added now, i just meant with all the other stuff that was added, they shoulda had some type of mechanic other than the mob turning and pwning ya :)

just hammer on the caravan in Meridia - it'll take a beating like no other... no agro to speak of though.. that caravan is stricly of the lawful pacifist persuasion ;)