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Angelus_dead
10-20-2009, 01:57 PM
A little suggestion:

It has been widely noticed that the feats you can train after having a Past Life feat are almost never worth a feat slot. Therefore, don't make them feats: change them into enhancements buyable with AP.

rimble
10-20-2009, 02:06 PM
A little suggestion:

It has been widely noticed that the feats you can train after having a Past Life feat are almost never worth a feat slot. Therefore, don't make them feats: change them into enhancements buyable with AP.

Yeah, at first I thought it's a little unfairly more accessible by classes with bonus feats, particularly Fighters, Monks, and Wizards.

So then I thought, making them Enhancements would be fair...but then I logged onto my Paladin who is a member of probably the most AP starved class in the game, and I thought that was unfair towards him too.

So then I figured, I don't know what the solution is, but neither Feats nor Enhancements is it.

Borror0
10-20-2009, 02:11 PM
ribmle, why would it need to be "fair"? For as long as the addition does not mess with balance too much, there is no problem.

Some classes will have more chances to gain out of reincarnating. I don't see a problem.

rimble
10-20-2009, 02:15 PM
ribmle, why would it need to be "fair"? For as long as the addition does not mess with balance too much, there is no problem.

Some classes will have more chances to gain out of reincarnating. I don't see a problem.

Because I think a game-wide out-of-character mechanic should be fairly accessible to all, especially if they want anyone to bother sticking around to chase that carrot.

bobbryan2
10-20-2009, 02:28 PM
Enhancements would at least be universally useful. Even to classes that reincarnate as themselves.

Borror0
10-20-2009, 02:35 PM
Because I think a game-wide out-of-character mechanic should be fairly accessible to all
Why?

[...], especially if they want anyone to bother sticking around to chase that carrot.
You think that +4 creation points is not enough?

Angelus_dead
10-20-2009, 02:39 PM
then I logged onto my Paladin who is a member of probably the most AP starved class in the game, and I thought that was unfair towards him too.
The correct fix to that problem is to make all classes AP starved, by creating many more useful AP enhancements. Obviously to start doing that they need to add prestige specialties to Monks, Bards, Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, and Favored Souls, plus also fix the Human and Drow racial choices.

That'll be a good start, and then they can add in a few others where AP choices are still too easy.


So then I figured, I don't know what the solution is, but neither Feats nor Enhancements is it.
Well, of course my primary suggestion would work for that:
Delete the concept of Past Life feats entirely.

That's what I said as soon as they were announced, because they're simply a bad idea. But I'm guessing the devs will be unwilling to do that, so I make other suggestions to help a little.

Angelus_dead
10-20-2009, 02:41 PM
Because I think a game-wide out-of-character mechanic should be fairly accessible to all, especially if they want anyone to bother sticking around to chase that carrot.
If the rewards for True Reincarnation are insufficient to justify the cost, then they could simply reduce the cost, by not using as large a multiplier on additional XP requirements.

Borror0
10-20-2009, 02:55 PM
Well, of course my primary suggestion would work for that:
Delete the concept of Past Life feats entirely.

That's what I said as soon as they were announced, because they're simply a bad idea. But I'm guessing the devs will be unwilling to do that, so I make other suggestions to help a little.
I don't remember reading your argument against them. Would you mind linking to me to it, please?

GoldyGopher
10-20-2009, 02:59 PM
You think that +4 creation points is not enough?

I actually don't think +4 creation points is enough, however I may not be able to explain it in this forum very well.

In my eyes there is a huge differance between 28 and 32 because of the ability to set the two secondary stats to thier maximum need at 32 where you can only set one of those two stats in a 28 point build (without penalizing your self on other stats). However between 32 and 36 there isn't as much gain as the four points only effects tertiary or dump stats.

When you build characters they have Primary Stat, Secondary Stats and Tertiary Stats and Dump stats.

For the sake of argument in many builds we are looking at Str - Primary Stat, Con and Dex Secondary Stats, Int and Wis as tertiary stats and finally Chr as Dump Stat. (Okay not a UMD character but).

Regardless of the number of points you have, 28 - 24, you are going to set you primary stat as high as you can. The problem is to make that stat go up to give an additional +1 modifier you need 6 character creation points.

Let try to use those additional +4 points towards the secondary stats, um for many characters an additional point in dex is pointless as your AC is capped by Armor, so that leaves con, him an additional 20 HP for all that effort. Not really worth it.

We move on tertiary stats. Again in many builds the positive is additional points in Int, more skill points but that is a lot of effort to get a total of 10 or 20 additional skill points depending on where they are placed.

You can of course substitute in a large number of builds with different primary and secondary stats but the result is the same.

Now on the opposite end of the spectrum are the true power player min max builds that have three secondary stats, this does benefit them but we are talking a much smaller number of builds.

If you set the first TR at +2 and the Second TR at either +3 (or +4 would be better) most builds would now benefit from the additional points.

Angelus_dead
10-20-2009, 03:05 PM
I don't remember reading your argument against them. Would you mind linking to me to it, please?
Mostly the same as yours: Conflates progression and respecialization.

Add in:
Against the D&D 3.5 rules, both literally and in spirit.
Creates a permanently divergent character power tier (potentially).
Worse than the +4 build points, because instead of being just more of the same, they are specific features not obtainable any other way.
Drastically inverted priority over tons of other character options that need design work (enhancements, specialties, existing feats, missing feats, spells, magic items, new classes, new races)

Kasen_Darksword
10-20-2009, 03:09 PM
I think you should get the past life feat for free... Paying a feat or AP is kinda dumb as they really are not over powering at all. And honestly getting two stat points and a past life feat still really isnt worth it for me but I may do one character.

Borror0
10-20-2009, 03:21 PM
In my eyes there is a huge differance between 28 and 32 because of the ability to set the two secondary stats to thier maximum need at 32 where you can only set one of those two stats in a 28 point build (without penalizing your self on other stats). However between 32 and 36 there isn't as much gain as the four points only effects tertiary or dump stats.
I agree but I think it's still a strong incentive.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-20-2009, 03:37 PM
Why?

You think that +4 creation points is not enough?

Do you mean +2? Or are you talking the insane grind for the second TR as well?

The first grind MIGHT be almost worth it for +2. The second for a second +2...not a chance.

GoldyGopher
10-20-2009, 03:44 PM
I agree but I think it's still a strong incentive.

I consider myself a pretty hard core player with a half-a-dozen 20 a few 19s and another 6 or so level 12 and above characters I originally was very excitied about True Reincarnate. However the problem is for my 16 official hard core builds only 1 sees a "much" improvement in terms of DPS (shes a Dex Build so the four points goes into her Str increasing Damage by 1 point before modifiers, I figure about a 4% increase in DPS) The rest we are looking at Dump stats and maybe 20 additional HP. My incentive as the game goes is pretty much gone.

Now that doesn't mean i won't use TR since I reroll so many characters, but the current system is not a huge incentive for me to jump up and down for. However with +5 or +6 Build points on the other hand helps 12 out of the 16 builds which would make me more likely to use the function (and more likely to buy the things in the store).

Borror0
10-20-2009, 03:47 PM
Like Angelus_dead said, if the rewards for True Reincarnation are insufficient to justify the cost (and it is), then they could simply reduce the cost.

If it was left to me, I would not reset tome nor favor and would give a bonus to XP rather than a penalty.

Bloodhaven
10-20-2009, 04:39 PM
/signed

Thrudh
10-20-2009, 04:42 PM
The first grind MIGHT be almost worth it for +2. The second for a second +2...not a chance.

I would never do either grind for JUST +2 build points.... However, I'll take the +2 build points for the two characters I plan to reincarnate to fix multi-class issues...

But all my characters who are solid today... no way I'm rerolling them into the exact same character just for 2 more build points.

Paragon
10-20-2009, 04:55 PM
Like Angelus_dead said, if the rewards for True Reincarnation are insufficient to justify the cost (and it is), then they could simply reduce the cost.

If it was left to me, I would not reset tome nor favor and would give a bonus to XP rather than a penalty.

I agree with this entirely. I doubt I will true reincarnate either of my main characters under the current system, although both would certainly benefit, the benefits are too small for so great a cost. I don't want to have to re-run all the favor and re-grind experience just to slightly improve my character. I would be more amiable to the option if I could keep my favor and had it, say, take 75% of the regular XP amount to level up again, but it really isn't worth the time to grind up a character three times to attain the benefits they offer!

ddoer
10-28-2009, 10:18 AM
I think you should get the past life feat for free... Paying a feat or AP is kinda dumb as they really are not over powering at all. And honestly getting two stat points and a past life feat still really isnt worth it for me but I may do one character.

i think, either make the feat useful, or give us the useless feat for free. Or do in this way, if the past is the same as current life, you can get the feat for free.

it's also ok to delete them.

KKDragonLord
10-28-2009, 10:43 AM
Thinking out of the box for a little bit here but, the reincarnation feats are mostly fairly unimpressive and they give some limited benefits for limited amounts of time, and Reincarnation itself is a practice that will be limited greatly by the amount of play time it will take to reroll a character so many times, the very downside of losing all the tomes of the character is a very restrictive limitation....

so considering all that, why not just give the reincarnation powers without the cost of a feat or enhancements at all? Just let it be an added bonus to reincarnating per se.

After all +2 build points each time is nice for some builds but for others it will hardly matter all that much because buying higher ability scores costs more build points already.

Solymnar
10-28-2009, 03:27 PM
Like Angelus_dead said, if the rewards for True Reincarnation are insufficient to justify the cost (and it is), then they could simply reduce the cost.

If it was left to me, I would not reset tome nor favor and would give a bonus to XP rather than a penalty.

Agreed.

An option that outright discourages its own use is self defeating.

QuantumFX
10-28-2009, 06:29 PM
I would go with this suggestion if the True Reincarnations granted an additional +4 Action Points per Reincarnate versus the extra build points.

assamite
10-28-2009, 07:00 PM
I think you should get the past life feat for free...

I 100% agree with this statement. Why would i have to train or choose something that is part of my character <.<

Beherit_Baphomar
10-28-2009, 08:26 PM
Mostly the same as yours: Conflates progression and respecialization.

Add in:
Against the D&D 3.5 rules, both literally and in spirit.
Creates a permanently divergent character power tier (potentially).
Worse than the +4 build points, because instead of being just more of the same, they are specific features not obtainable any other way.
Drastically inverted priority over tons of other character options that need design work (enhancements, specialties, existing feats, missing feats, spells, magic items, new classes, new races)

All of the above is true, and no one ever wanted any of it.

Reincarnate comes about from a huge thread (and multiple smaller ones) asking for the ability to respec. Thats all. Some want alignment change, but mostly just a simple respec.

A problem that kept on cropping up in those threads was you cant respec, we dont know what tomes you've used and when...so I suggested just do away with tomes used. I think the majority wouldn't mind that.

Pay a little gain a little...

I just dont understand why this has gotten into past life feats, more XP required, +stat distribution points, tomes being changed...

Seems to have gone off the rails big time.

noinfo
10-28-2009, 11:12 PM
A little suggestion:

It has been widely noticed that the feats you can train after having a Past Life feat are almost never worth a feat slot. Therefore, don't make them feats: change them into enhancements buyable with AP.

I have already suggested using AP as a solution along with what I believe would be a method of retaining some of the flavour of the previous life of the toon.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2486037#post2486037

While this certainly may not be exactly the solution you are proposing I believe it is far better than the current feat based one.

noinfo
10-28-2009, 11:30 PM
All of the above is true, and no one ever wanted any of it.

Reincarnate comes about from a huge thread (and multiple smaller ones) asking for the ability to respec. Thats all. Some want alignment change, but mostly just a simple respec.

A problem that kept on cropping up in those threads was you cant respec, we dont know what tomes you've used and when...so I suggested just do away with tomes used. I think the majority wouldn't mind that.

Pay a little gain a little...

I just dont understand why this has gotten into past life feats, more XP required, +stat distribution points, tomes being changed...

Seems to have gone off the rails big time.

Actually the Devs stated that this was not meant as a respec option. This is obvious as people who want to respec do not really want to level a toon all the way to 20 to do so.

They stated it was for those who wanted to continue to develop their character further (Possibly due to the fact that level 20 is cap for forseeable future) and wanted to provide the opportunity for those capped characters.

The fact that this is currently the only method of "Respecing" is beside the point.

Favis
11-01-2009, 12:51 PM
Do not chance them to enhancements.

The correct fix to that problem is to make all classes AP starved, by creating many more useful AP enhancements. Obviously to start doing that they need to add prestige specialties to Monks, Bards, Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, and Favored Souls, plus also fix the Human and Drow racial choices.
That'll be a good start, and then they can add in a few others where AP choices are still too easy.

Fully agree

Murderface
11-01-2009, 02:41 PM
they should add a bonus feat that might make it worth it and maybe +2 for the first reincarnation and +4 for the second

but goldy is right +4 to stat points isnt that big of a deal now adding a +2 reincarnation stat bonus like maxing out str to 20 at first lvl would be right up my alley, could mitigate that with a - 2 penalty stat bonus to the stat of your choosing

FluffyCalico
11-02-2009, 04:36 AM
If it was left to me, I would not reset tome nor favor and would give a bonus to XP rather than a penalty.

Pretty sure this was a short cut to do the true rez as int tomes were an issue. ANd the favor is most likely part of a shortcut to get your full xp from each quest again. As for the 1.6 times the xp, I think if you are taking all the same levels it should be 50% xp. The 1.6 times should be for people make major changes and not just true rezing.

Chaosprism
11-02-2009, 10:05 AM
Yeah enhancements is how i'd do it also not feats, but I'd also make them cost a lot of AP.

Maybe 8 points to get a past life enhancement.