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Riggs
10-18-2009, 02:31 PM
It has been said already many times, but it needs to be said again.

For a cost of 5 feats , and heavy AP cost due to taking 2 enhancement lines that no one would max out otherwise - for...a +1 to combat dcs, intimidate...and +1 crit range. For one weapon. Kensai 2 get power surge, and and nothing else...unless you also buy the kensai damage boost which adds +2 damage and +2 seeker....for one weapon. Sure it is 'only' 1 AP...but why does it cost extra on top? Does a barb have to spend extra AP to get viscious added to FB?

A paladin can get 4d6, and 7d6 at level 20 on every single attack, including apparently 100% of glancing blows for the main monster type after level 16. And a crit multiplier on every smite

Frenzied bezerker costs about the same AP roughly, and only 1 feat, but gives 4d6 damage on ALL attacks on ALL weapons, including also apparently 100% damage on glancing blows. AND more str and con. AND FB3 adds a +2 crit damage multiplier to ALL weapons while raged/frenzied.

So for more feats and a bunch of wasted AP - you get a character with far less damage than say...any other melee prestige class gets, but it costs way more.

Kensai needs the crit multiplier for levels 2 and 3. So a kensai 2 should get a +1 crit damage multiplier, and kensai 3 a +1 crit range, and +2 crit damage with their chosen weapon. Or possibly just level 3, but then add another crit range generic +1 at level 12, and +1 crit damage at level 18 that any fighter can take regardless of prestige class, which would apply to all weapons.

The old argument against giving extra crit range was that barbs were way too powerful with the +2 crit range at level 14. Add in stat damagers and yeah it was a lot of crits. But now stat damage is less effective, and instead of simply losing a 'too powerful enhancement', FB 2 and 3 gives a more powerful one instead. Crit damage on ALL crits? People are doing what - 500 point crits now? AND 4d6 on all attacks and glancing blows to boot, thats an average of 14 damage AOE on pretty much everything all the time every other swing.

Gee that +36 damage for seeker on a greataxe sure looks powerful compared to the 160-200 extra damage on a crit a barb or pally gets.

A fighter gets lots of feats to either generalize, or specialize, and a Kensai, or fighter that specializes in one thing, should be equal to any other melee class at least - so they should be getting the same +2 crit multiplier that paladins and barbs get for their one weapon.

The glancing blow enchancement lines for fighter and WF are a total waste of time after being hyped up for months before mod 9. Each tic only adds like 2 % maybe max to the chance to get extra damage. I have everything you can possibly have on a kensai 2 so far, only short kensai 3 - and the 15% of the time I get a bit of extra holy damage on a glancing blow is pretty much completely unnoticable and a total waste of a ton of feats and AP.

Unless they add up to something like 50% - its not even worth considering.

Aesop
10-18-2009, 02:38 PM
It would be nice if Tier 3 gave something a little extra wouldn't it... I mean it is the most expensive PrE that I've seen thus far.

though they did reduce the cost a little by dropping tier 4 off the Crit Confirm and Attack Boost lines

maybe even just having a +1 Crit Multiplier added in to that as well would be a place to start

Aesop

spartin
10-18-2009, 02:50 PM
um... not to derail your tirade, but fbIII does not give +2 multiplier to all crits. its actually +3 when you are in death frenzy... on natural 19-20 rolls. if it was on all crits, once again the rapier using barbs would rule the roost, with 2hf falling miles behind.

Angelus_dead
10-18-2009, 02:59 PM
For a cost of 5 feats , and heavy AP cost due to taking 2 enhancement lines that no one would max out otherwise
How do you figure Kensei costs 5 feats?

Additional notes:
1. Weapon Spec is something all fighters take anyhow. It's not actually a cost for Kensei, although Superior Weapon Focus is.
2. Feats are less costly for Fighters than any other class. Ask Barbarians if they enjoy needing Cleave or Bards if they like having Weapon Focus.
3. While you're at it, ask an Assassin about Move Silently or a Knight of Chalice about Aura of Courage.

Tanka
10-18-2009, 03:15 PM
I rather like Kensei's required Boost being not Haste Boost. It means I can use Power Surges and not run out of Haste Boosts, unless I'm using them as well.

And, really, if you're a Fighter, you're taking all the "required" Feats. If you aren't, why are you rolling a Fighter?

deadkitty
10-18-2009, 03:19 PM
All the feats required are usefull feats to begin with. An added to hit and to damage rolls... not a bad deal imo. And really, do you need every weapon to have the added damage? If you are using a Min II Great Axe, really what else are you going to use? Vorpal, smiters, banishers, and disruptors that you aren't using for the damage in the first place? Not to mention fighters get extra feats every second level, and really there are way better feats to take other then the pre-reqs for Kensai.... oooh i kno skill focus heal and dodge+mobility+spring attack so i can get whirlwind attack, totally going to need those. You know what pre-reqs aren't worth having.... power attack and weapon focus on a bard to get an exta +1 dmg for your songs and a 5/- DR song.

Aesop
10-18-2009, 03:20 PM
I rather like Kensei's required Boost being not Haste Boost. It means I can use Power Surges and not run out of Haste Boosts, unless I'm using them as well.

And, really, if you're a Fighter, you're taking all the "required" Feats. If you aren't, why are you rolling a Fighter?

true. maybe its just that it feels underwhelming... If it had some flair with it maybe... or something like that

Aesop

Tanka
10-18-2009, 03:24 PM
Fighters don't have to use Smites or go into Death Frenzies to utilize their PrEs. They have to use a Power Surge, and that's it. +8 to Str for 1min is pretty alright, to be honest.

Even without it, their crits still hit pretty hard.

Aesop
10-18-2009, 03:25 PM
All the feats required are usefull feats to begin with. An added to hit and to damage rolls... not a bad deal imo. And really, do you need every weapon to have the added damage? If you are using a Min II Great Axe, really what else are you going to use? Vorpal, smiters, banishers, and disruptors that you aren't using for the damage in the first place?

actually since they nerfed the hell out of the Transmuting property having a single weapon as your focus is somewhat of a liability. Suddenly you do great damage with that single type of weapon but against anyone with a DR that's not the type you have.

Maybe if they put the Feats in similar to the pathfinder ones that oversome some of the DRs that you cannot (except x/-)

Aesop

Aesop
10-18-2009, 03:28 PM
Fighters don't have to use Smites or go into Death Frenzies to utilize their PrEs. They have to use a Power Surge, and that's it. +8 to Str for 1min is pretty alright, to be honest.

Even without it, their crits still hit pretty hard.

yeah but Kensai 3 really only gives a bonus to skills that the fighter rarely uses and a +1 Crit Range (which costs extra)... Rogue tier Three grants a vorpal effect to any weapon Pallys get extra damage barbs have insane 19-20 x Ouch criticals and extra strength and whatnot... its just Kensai seems underwhelming

aesop

Tanka
10-18-2009, 03:31 PM
yeah but Kensai 3 really only gives a bonus to skills that the fighter rarely uses and a +1 Crit Range (which costs extra)... Rogue tier Three grants a vorpal effect to any weapon Pallys get extra damage barbs have insane 19-20 x Ouch criticals and extra strength and whatnot... its just Kensai seems underwhelming

aesop
Admittedly, I don't have Kensei 3 on anyone, and probably won't for a little while yet.

Either way, Pallys get situational extra damage, Barbs still have to kill themselves to get more damage, Rogue has to be SAing to get the vorpal effect. Kensei is just a flat bonus versus all monsters.

Really, the only one I'd say is flat-out better than Kensei 3 is Tempest 3.

Aesop
10-18-2009, 03:36 PM
Admittedly, I don't have Kensei 3 on anyone, and probably won't for a little while yet.

Either way, Pallys get situational extra damage, Barbs still have to kill themselves to get more damage, Rogue has to be SAing to get the vorpal effect. Kensei is just a flat bonus versus all monsters.

Really, the only one I'd say is flat-out better than Kensei 3 is Tempest 3.

The extra +x3 Crit for the barb isn't just while roidraging? The Pally well true its only against evil outsiders and undead (with I believe some extra love against other evils)... but isn't that the bulk of what we face at the upper levels? Tempest 3... Rogue Sneak Attacking is like guys peeing while standing up... if they're not then they are in the ****ter...

Tempest three... yeah I can see that. Like I said I just feel like Kensai 3 is a little blah over all. If it was +1 range and multiplier then I don't hink I'd complain at all... I'm not really complaining now honestly ... just expressing my blahness towards the design discisions

Aesop

Tanka
10-18-2009, 03:46 PM
The extra +x3 Crit for the barb isn't just while roidraging? The Pally well true its only against evil outsiders and undead (with I believe some extra love against other evils)... but isn't that the bulk of what we face at the upper levels? Tempest 3... Rogue Sneak Attacking is like guys peeing while standing up... if they're not then they are in the ****ter...

Tempest three... yeah I can see that. Like I said I just feel like Kensai 3 is a little blah over all. If it was +1 range and multiplier then I don't hink I'd complain at all... I'm not really complaining now honestly ... just expressing my blahness towards the design discisions

Aesop
Yeah, you're right on the Barb mult boost -- I was thinking it only came with Death Frenzy.

Paladins do have a pretty nice T3 right now, but that could readily change (and should for the new high level quests next mod).

Rogues face off versus a lot of creatures with fort, and really their most important use is DPS against raid bosses. Trash mobs are unimportant thanks to readily available insta-kill weapons (or thanks to perma-DW many mobs have now). And even then, many raid bosses have fortification from Normal on up, with a couple hitting 75% on Elite.

Kensei isn't overpowered. It is, IMO, balanced.

William_the_Bat
10-19-2009, 10:41 AM
What, you mean there are other weapons than khopeshes?

Twerpp
10-19-2009, 11:38 AM
I dont think Kensai III is too bad. The feats you have to take, 2 of them make a nice contribution to the DPS. Also fighters have so many feats you can take the whole GTWF or GTHF line, and the feats needed for Kensai, and still not spend any natural feats, leaving plenty of feat-age to pump up your hit points, ac, trips and stunning blow, and/or intimidate. Its pretty powerful, even though the dps wont always match, the fighter will have the freedom to customize that a Frenzerker will never have.

RobbinB
10-19-2009, 12:24 PM
I'm against any enhancement that relatively overpowers 1 group of weapons over another, which is exactly what kensai 3 does with its +1 to critical threat range. It's a much better bonus for maul and greataxe users than for falchion and greatsword users. The same problem exists with the FB bonuses improving the damage multiplier, which is actually better for weapons like falchion (or worse yet rapier). And worse still the weighting tilts the balance in the opposite direction of what makes thematic sense for the classes.

To avoid this problem, both the FB and kensai enhancements lines should have one enhancement to crit range and one to crit multiplier.

Angelus_dead
10-19-2009, 12:46 PM
I'm against any enhancement that relatively overpowers 1 group of weapons over another, which is exactly what kensai 3 does with its +1 to critical threat range.
Yes, which is why when Kensai was first announced I suggested that the tier3 bonus be different for different weapons; not all of them needed the same +1 critical threat.


It's a much better bonus for maul and greataxe users than for falchion and greatsword users.
Well, it improves Greataxe by a bigger percentage than it does Falchion... but Falchion was already the better weapon, and it still is after Kensei 3. Axe goes from 4 to 6 while Falchion goes from 6 to 7.


The same problem exists with the FB bonuses improving the damage multiplier, which is actually better for weapons like falchion (or worse yet rapier). And worse still the weighting tilts the balance in the opposite direction of what makes thematic sense for the classes.
Wrong. That was the case when Frenzied Berserker was first announced. But in response to my pointing it out in that thread, the developers changed it to give the same improvement to all kinds of weapons.


To avoid this problem, both the FB and kensai enhancements lines should have one enhancement to crit range and one to crit multiplier.
That would not avoid it very well.

kaelis
10-19-2009, 01:04 PM
The extra +x3 Crit for the barb isn't just while roidraging? The Pally well true its only against evil outsiders and undead (with I believe some extra love against other evils)... but isn't that the bulk of what we face at the upper levels? Tempest 3... Rogue Sneak Attacking is like guys peeing while standing up... if they're not then they are in the ****ter...

Tempest three... yeah I can see that. Like I said I just feel like Kensai 3 is a little blah over all. If it was +1 range and multiplier then I don't hink I'd complain at all... I'm not really complaining now honestly ... just expressing my blahness towards the design discisions

Aesop

Expecting paladins to lose ALOT of dps come the next few mods when we see non outsider mobs.

The_Phenx
10-19-2009, 01:05 PM
I have my Kensai III Dragonmarked Halfy.. honestly I love it.

With the DC increase from the enhancements AND power surge I can trip pretty much everything in the game except bosses.

With the Kensai Set I have 10 surges and haste boosts

I already had 99% of the feats... and honestly I sitll had to just take something to fill lvl 20 since I had everything else. Picked up imp crit pierce for the hell of it.

Course I have no ac... run around in jammies... have bramble casters...the sonic guard ring... corrosive salt guard...radiance guard... fire shield cold

and use lots of stoneskin and displacement. buffed get avg of 175pt crits.

If you min max with a calculator you'll never be happy...

Angelus_dead
10-19-2009, 02:15 PM
Expecting paladins to lose ALOT of dps come the next few mods when we see non outsider mobs.
Do you know if KOTC has been fixed to not work on non-outsiders yet?

Junts
10-19-2009, 02:17 PM
Do you know if KOTC has been fixed to not work on non-outsiders yet?

Hey it doesnt work on all non-outsiders, just some kinds

Quori mobs however, are evil outsiders!

Also, there's a few kinds of evil outsiders (specifically, mobs that are aligned evil and of an outsider type, but not the 'evil outsider' type) on which kotc damage does not work; the best example are tieflings in Shavarath, who are typed Native Outsider, and take damage from a greater evil outsider bane weapon, but do not take added kotc damage.

Aesop
10-19-2009, 03:38 PM
I do wish there were more tactics feats that applied to Boss Mobs... I mean half or more don't effect bosses at all.... yet Kensai has these bonuses to them...

Then again I think that's a problem I have with Boss mobs in general... DPS seems to be the only way to really contribute to the group.

Arcanes can't use any CC effects becausethey are essentially (or actually)immune to them. Do clouds even slow them down at all anymore?

oh well... maybe I'm just getting tired

Angelus_dead
10-19-2009, 05:40 PM
I do wish there were more tactics feats that applied to Boss Mobs... I mean half or more don't effect bosses at all.... yet Kensai has these bonuses to them...
Yup, here's my old suggestion:
Sunder Armor: AC+DR penalty
Sunder Weapon: damage penalty

Emili
10-19-2009, 06:02 PM
Yup, here's my old suggestion:
Sunder Armor: AC+DR penalty
Sunder Weapon: damage penalty
Quite funny thing about it all is Kensai need not sunder any boss to hit it... bloody Kensai to-hit bonus with all the latest gear is way above anything out there beside another super character's ac. If you need to be sundering for the 3/4 rogue or bard even ... then they are pretty gimp. The only place To-Hit matters is end-game elite, and those who play end-game elite already covered it.

Running thru TOD on hard or elite ... I notice my kensai does land trip on Orthons pretty steadily... how can she not her to-hit be that high.

So now then... here be an actual thought? Lower the mob HP, Lower thier DR and then raise the AC of them just enough for full blown Kensai "to-hit" numbers have some meaning.

All in all Kensai III is poor returrn for having to take superior weapon focus, While I know there are plenty of people out here saying fighter get a ton of selectable feats... and while there are not a lot of great selectable feats. The one thing you forget is every other class have grated abilities(feats)... so then the difference is fighters need feats to 1.) make a DPS effort, 2.) make and AC effort and 3.) make a Saves effort whereas every other class gets these class granted to much degree and may thus build upon them while the fighter squeezes in to get one of these areas covered.

Aesop
10-19-2009, 06:04 PM
Yup, here's my old suggestion:
Sunder Armor: AC+DR penalty
Sunder Weapon: damage penalty

Yeah I remember these suggestions making the rounds a few times.

its not like there isn't already code in the game for doing a percentage of the damage.

Heck make it Disarm and have Improved Disarm do a higher percentage

just to keep the two effects more separate.

Disarm Reduces physical attacks from the critter by 25% and Improved Disarm by 33%

or something like that

still like em

Aesop

Angelus_dead
10-19-2009, 06:09 PM
Yeah I remember these suggestions making the rounds a few times.
its not like there isn't already code in the game for doing a percentage of the damage.
Heck make it Disarm and have Improved Disarm do a higher percentage
Percentage is a poor way to do it. It can just be like a -2 or -4 penalty on weapon damage, like what happens from several existing debuffs. (This means that if a kensai is keeping the raid boss sundered, it's like the tank has +2 or +4 more DR)

Adding Disarm would be a possibility, but it has several problems, including the lack of corresponding animations, and the failure to address the weakness of the existing Improved Sunder feat and Shatter weapon property. Note that in D&D, the most helpful thing you could likely do with Sunder in combat is break an enemy's weapon for self-defense.

Aesop
10-19-2009, 06:28 PM
Percentage is a poor way to do it. It can just be like a -2 or -4 penalty on weapon damage, like what happens from several existing debuffs. (This means that if a kensai is keeping the raid boss sundered, it's like the tank has +2 or +4 more DR)

Adding Disarm would be a possibility, but it has several problems, including the lack of corresponding animations, and the failure to address the weakness of the existing Improved Sunder feat and Shatter weapon property. Note that in D&D, the most helpful thing you could likely do with Sunder in combat is break an enemy's weapon for self-defense.

I suppose so yeah. Though while in DnD Sunder is best used for breaking a weapon in DDO it has been established as an AC Debuff... which is why I think in terms of Disarm.

Definately would be a nice addition to the Tactics line of Feats whatever they call it

Aesop

Emili
10-20-2009, 11:39 AM
Sunder: Currently reduces the target's Armor Class by 4 for 12 seconds. Some mob are immune to the sunder and successful Fortitude save negates it. (DC 10 + Str mod) <- fighter DC for this so a Kensai is a good candidate or a high str barb, fact is in game right now the high str barb will have equal or better DC on it...

Again, the current use of this only applies in end-game elite if any as most people in guild runs clean up all but the toughest mob and end boss rather easily. Elite pugs only occur among people you generally know - even moreso now with f2p. Most of the melee really can do without - and function efficiently without - sunder as 99% of them are still hitting the Elite end-boss quite extremely well when raid buffed anyway… and trash mob still disappear in a blink of an eye. The only people who need you to sunder something is the first time/first build newbie who screwed up in applying any focus at all to any dps.

My current full BaB melee are:
Emili - lvl 20 Kensai III - TWF khopesh whirly blade thingy-trips extremely well- has improve trip feat for lack of anything good.
Einin - lvl 18/2 (ranger/fighter) Tempest III - yet another TWF khopesh whirly blade thingy, more attacks in - trips mob ok
Meallach - lvl 18 Berzerker - just a 2hf brute ... trips extremely well even without a feat. DPS overwhelming people tease is that time of the month. - had she been a TWF she out-perform the other two also.

I’ve not got my assassin to tier III yet but lately I been noticing how many a level 18 assassin claim high proc rates on insta-kills. Berserker III is just plain brute ripping hru trash doing about 80-100 each swing with 400-500 damage crits.

I’ve not got my KOTC up to 18 yet and she is the baby of the bunch – still lvl 17 KOTC II- and still under-geared… so really refrain from commenting there. Pally is a high push button class Divine Favor + Divine Might + Zeal top off with PA and spam an occasional smite they do plenty of damages on the front end of the dice … I am awaiting to see what the tail bonus’ will be like.

Really, when people look at Kensai III it is the most underwhelming of the tier three melee PrE’s and probably among the most costly… I’ve kept my Emili pure seeking Kensai III plus cap-stone … fact of the matter however is a Kensai II/Tempest I yields a more effective character figure … 34-36 strength then top it with rams might and +4 favored enemy yields much better DPS… the tempest I adding equal to a fighter capstone and 6 levels ranger better saves and ac for giving up 12 HP seems a no brainer… the tactical DC’s also come out higher in such a build.

I do like the idea of lowering the damage output of the boss and especially DR reduction you suggested for sunder... but as with any debuff methods - are they not easily replacable by taking in heavier dps. Trash rarely needs sundering ... a few elite orthons here or there maybe but overall except for the VOD reds nothing out there needs it. A character designated as a niceity to have around a boss does not make for a viable sought after build. Especially when other PrE will be able to do the same or better.