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parvo
10-15-2009, 11:06 PM
Most permadeath players really don't care about reincarnation for their PD characters, however we would like a stat decrease on raise option.

--Players have the option of turning this on only at character creation.
--The option creates a permenant flag in bio or floaty name tag.
--The option can be turned off at any time, but can never be turned back on.
--Every raise decreases constitution permenantly by 1.

This option would be a good way of satisfying permadeath players desire for a challenge while allowing for some deaths along the way.

Uska
10-15-2009, 11:12 PM
yes +1

Lorien_the_First_One
10-15-2009, 11:12 PM
Interesting... I don't normally support special tools for PD play but this one brings you closer to D&D core rules so I like it as an option.

sirgog
10-16-2009, 12:18 AM
Am with Lorien too - it's a good idea that I'd probably never use (I personally find high level play more fun that lowbie play, but support tools for PDers).

If you turn the flag off, it should restore the lost Constitution (allowing people that want to level a toon intended for endgame in the PD style; but instead of deleting upon death they drop PD guild on death and play non-PD DDO with the toon)

Natashaelle
10-16-2009, 02:23 AM
Don't PermaDeath and never will, but that does sound like a great suggestion for you guys there :)

GlassCannon
10-16-2009, 06:57 AM
This sounds like a really cool addition to the DDO Options.

I like it.


Yes, it would be a trigger at Create. No, you cannot turn it on by accident. No, you cannot disable it.

Flag - what should it be?

A skull? A red flag? A gold star? A wooden stick?

Gol
10-16-2009, 09:17 AM
I would be tempted to agree if Turbine didn't auto kill & raise you in some dungeon(s). -1 Con every time you run shroud? No thx.

moorewr
10-16-2009, 10:10 AM
I would be tempted to agree if Turbine didn't auto kill & raise you in some dungeon(s). -1 Con every time you run shroud? No thx.

I imagine you are aware that PD players rarely run the Shroud (have there been any except for the Legion PD project?).. That's the only automatic death I can think of, but it certainly indicates that either there would have to be an exception made for that sort of resurrection, or that PD players would keep their Shroud repeats down to a minimum.

WeaselKing
10-16-2009, 10:52 AM
I would think that True Resurrection should be able to bypass this penalty (it is true isn't it). The Shroud death/raise seems to be a True Res so it would then work out, although I doubt that too many PD players are terribly concerned about the Shroud.

whysper
10-16-2009, 11:03 AM
I would think that True Resurrection should be able to bypass this penalty (it is true isn't it). The Shroud death/raise seems to be a True Res so it would then work out, although I doubt that too many PD players are terribly concerned about the Shroud.

Correct, True Resurrection has no penalty.

parvo
10-18-2009, 01:13 AM
Am with Lorien too - it's a good idea that I'd probably never use (I personally find high level play more fun that lowbie play, but support tools for PDers).

If you turn the flag off, it should restore the lost Constitution (allowing people that want to level a toon intended for endgame in the PD style; but instead of deleting upon death they drop PD guild on death and play non-PD DDO with the toon)

I don't like the restore option. If someone wants to turn it off before thier first raise, fine. Otherwise, if you're in, you're in.

TechNoFear
10-18-2009, 02:07 AM
Ignoring the cost, a Lesser Res (taking 1 pt less Con) would be the same thing.

An easier solution is to offer a Perma Death specific Resurrection token (in effect a stacking -1 Con tome).

parvo
10-20-2009, 07:29 PM
Ignoring the cost, a Lesser Res (taking 1 pt less Con) would be the same thing.

An easier solution is to offer a Perma Death specific Resurrection token (in effect a stacking -1 Con tome).

Anyone know what this means?

Junts
10-20-2009, 07:46 PM
He means you could purchase and do a lesser reincarnation, which is an effect that basically makes you go back through your level progression (in the same order as chosen) and you can re-select everything from base statistics to skill points, level-up stat allocation and feats.

It wouldnt work for you guys, because you'd have to put those con points somewhere else, and it retains your character level; the poster doesnt know what hes talking about.

TechNoFear
10-20-2009, 10:07 PM
Anyone know what this means?

I am sorry I was not clear enough for you to understand, I forget you do not do this for a living (and so can’t envision/critique abstract concepts easily, something I do everyday).

Instead of adding a new game mechanic, requiring massive regression testing of all classes, etc, it would be simpler to modify an existing system to accommodate PD.

This could be done by adding a PD checkbox to the new Res screens which applies a -1 penalty on Con.

An even easier solution, requiring very little regression testing would be to introduce ‘PD Res Tomes’. These would be a -1 Con tome (that stacks with other -1 Con tomes).

[EDIT:
So we are clear;

You die.
Eat -1 Con tome.
Continue playing.
Die again, eat another -1 Con tome. (rinse repeat)

This gives exactly the result you are looking for without any game system change.]

Using either of these systems could get your desired result without excessive cost (which is not justified for the number of PD players, nor the current lack of functionality for PD players).


the poster doesnt know what hes talking about.

Just because you are not intuitive/intelligent enough to understand an idea/concept, it does not logically follow that the idea is wrong or based on incorrect information.

parvo
10-20-2009, 10:59 PM
I am sorry I was not clear enough for you to understand, I forget you do not do this for a living (and so can’t envision/critique abstract concepts easily, something I do everyday).

Instead of adding a new game mechanic, requiring massive regression testing of all classes, etc, it would be simpler to modify an existing system to accommodate PD.

This could be done by adding a PD checkbox to the new Res screens which applies a -1 penalty on Con.

An even easier solution, requiring very little regression testing would be to introduce ‘PD Res Tomes’. These would be a -1 Con tome (that stacks with other -1 Con tomes).

[EDIT:
So we are clear;

You die.
Eat -1 Con tome.
Continue playing.
Die again, eat another -1 Con tome. (rinse repeat)

This gives exactly the result you are looking for without any game system change.]

Using either of these systems could get your desired result without excessive cost (which is not justified for the number of PD players, nor the current lack of functionality for PD players).



Just because you are not intuitive/intelligent enough to understand an idea/concept, it does not logically follow that the idea is wrong or based on incorrect information.

Why would applying -1 con to a marked character require any more testing than -1 con tomes? Also, it's not exactly the effect I'm looking for. I like the idea of a tag showing the character is marked for -1 con on raise.

Borror0
10-20-2009, 11:02 PM
--Players have the option of turning this on only at character creation.
--The option creates a permenant flag in bio or floaty name tag.
I'll support this much. LOTRO have this for roleplayers. DDO should have such a thing for roleplayers and permadeath.

You know, give the two playstyles some visibility.

TechNoFear
10-21-2009, 12:43 AM
Why would applying -1 con to a marked character require any more testing than -1 con tomes?

Because you have to 'mark' the character in the first place.

To do this you must;

Add the persistent storage of that data and migrate all current characters to the new format. (have a look at the issues migrating data caused on Lama).

Ensure that this change to the DB has no other impacts (ie performance in a system where milliseconds count).

Create the user interface to accept and store this data.

Create a new system to apply this new data at the appropriate time and not at any other (ie non PD character loses -1 Con because data migration screwed up).

This event could trigger at any time, any quest and multiple times quickly. That means lots of testing.

OR

Add a new item that has a very similar effect to current item functionality (very limited code and testing required).

This event would only happen when a character initiated the event (ate the tome) and so would require little testing.

parvo
10-21-2009, 07:29 AM
Well Tech, I got news for ya. Turb doesn't do lots, let alone massive, testing on anything. Ever. We do that when it goes live.

cdbd3rd
10-21-2009, 08:44 AM
I'll support this much. LOTRO have this for roleplayers. DDO should have such a thing for roleplayers and permadeath.

You know, give the two playstyles some visibility.

Every playstyle should get a little something every once in a while.
I can't think of any game mechanic option that has been introduced specifically geared towards the PD folks. They're due.
LOTRO style notations for RP & PD wouldn't be 'simple', but would be doable. The -1 con tomes, also doable. The option at creation to be a Hard-Core (PD) character, with all the variables previously suggested on that idea. Very not simple. But doable.

atraice17
10-21-2009, 12:03 PM
perma-death...that means to be permanently dead...right? so if you have a reincarnation wouldn't that then make it a partial death instead? IDK... i don't do perma death as I like my characters to much to see them destroyed over and over again.

404error
10-21-2009, 02:59 PM
Well Tech, I got news for ya. Turb doesn't do lots, let alone massive, testing on anything. Ever. We do that when it goes live.

Your so mean ..... ='(

Ranmaru2
10-21-2009, 03:40 PM
Your so mean ..... ='(

I don't know if you could answer this, but how big is the team and what's the whole process for testing bug reports and such? I think that would be a very interesting thread to make or something to get Tolero on there 404. With this, maybe we could subside a lot of the rage towards Q&A, as sometimes, we feel that huge things get through even when they're brought up quite a bit (*glances at ye olde Death Pact and Shroud topic*).

Just a thought...

Anyway, as per the OP:

Never played PD but it sounds like it would be fun for those who do play that way and fit in well. I encourage this.

404error
10-21-2009, 04:08 PM
I don't know if you could answer this, but how big is the team and what's the whole process for testing bug reports and such? I think that would be a very interesting thread to make or something to get Tolero on there 404. With this, maybe we could subside a lot of the rage towards Q&A, as sometimes, we feel that huge things get through even when they're brought up quite a bit (*glances at ye olde Death Pact and Shroud topic*).

I have been thinking about this for a bit, I would point you to the episode of DDocast with Silthe (http://www.cyberears.com/cybrss/3218.mp3) for most of QA ideals around when I started. I will see about this for Week 3 of House of Errors.

Phidius
10-21-2009, 04:28 PM
/signed

bobbryan2
10-21-2009, 05:45 PM
Your so mean ..... ='(

Do you guys even know you broke pots and madstone rage... twice? Like a year and a half ago, and never rolled in the fix again?

Borror0
10-21-2009, 06:23 PM
Do you guys even know you broke pots and madstone rage... twice? Like a year and a half ago, and never rolled in the fix again?
That's my second most annoying bug; second to the slow casting speed for some sorcerer spells (like Scorching ray and Cone of Cold).

Talking about which, did they at least fix potions when feared? I know they fixed potions while raged but not sure if it fixed when feared.

binnsr
10-21-2009, 06:24 PM
blah blah blah .. migrate all current characters to the new format .. blah blah blah
you lost me right here ..

alter table CHARACTERS add PERMADEATH varchar(1) default 0

0 is off...
1 is on...

This isn't rocket surgery :) or brain science for that matter!

Granted, the hard part is, as you said, code hooks to take advantage of it, the UI additions during character creation (and in settings to turn off and grey out), the regression testing, etc..


Do you guys even know you broke pots and madstone rage... twice? Like a year and a half ago, and never rolled in the fix again?

Sure they do.. they've at least doubled the number of potions that no longer work with rage effects...


edit: my syntax is probably wrong above as I haven't written a sql call in years, but its the thought that counts ..

parvo
10-21-2009, 06:25 PM
Your so mean ..... ='(

Sorry 404. It's just a mean fact. Some studios test a lot and some don't. I'm sure there are valid business reasons for that, but it's still true. DDO launched with tons of bugs. Some were so obvious that there's no way you or anyone else can claim otherwise. Were you around for the attack speed exploit? It was left in the game for months without correction. Caster AI was broken back in mod 4? and had to wait for mod 9 for a fix? Was that like 2 years? My opinions are however balanced. When you guys get something right I post that too. Of course those posts get buried faster than a waterworks favor run. Besides, you have plenty of folks who will gleefully lie to you and tell you how wonderful everything is. A little healthy criticisim is good for you. You get a lot more good ideas outta me than some putz telling you your butt smells like roses and ginger.


Anyway, back to a con loss on raise option. Thanks to all that support it. It's something we could all enjoy doing when we want Real Danger like the box sell story promised.

Borror0
10-21-2009, 06:45 PM
Some studios test a lot and some don't. I'm sure there are valid business reasons for that, but it's still true.
It's a dichotomy between quantity and quality. while a finished product with little bugs will sell, much, much better than a finished product with a lot of bug, DDO is not a finished product by any sense of the term. It lacks content, has a shaky class design, misses tons of spells and feats, suffers from gross imbalance, does not support solo really well, does not offer crafting, etc. As a result, more features is better than bug free features.

404error and his team probably test a lot but they are probably understaffed for the number of features they have to test because someone at Turbine feels that a feature cascade will be better for the game than catching all the bugs there is (and person is probably right).

DDO launched with tons of bugs.
Here is what I think happened.

DDO didn't look like it would be extremely profitable so Turbine moved most of its experienced QA staff onto LOTRO before DDO's launch (or shortly after launch). Understaffed and inexperienced, the remaining QA staff had no choice but to test the bigger feature and leave the smaller ones unchecked or barely tested; crossing their fingers that nothing blows up.

Strakeln
10-21-2009, 07:27 PM
I'd probably be blacklisted by every PD group the second I introduced them to red text :D

Oddly enough, I'm not totally against Parvo's idea.

Borror0
10-21-2009, 07:38 PM
I'd probably be blacklisted by every PD group the second I introduced them to red text :D
Fell off my chair.

Sadly, none of them would fall for it: they already know they never died.

oberon131313
10-21-2009, 09:50 PM
I have been thinking about this for a bit, I would point you to the episode of DDocast with Silthe (http://www.cyberears.com/cybrss/3218.mp3) for most of QA ideals around when I started. I will see about this for Week 3 of House of Errors.

thanks for that. I'm actually looking to get into game QA (applying at some local studios right now) and that was kinda neat getting to hear about it.

TechNoFear
10-21-2009, 10:05 PM
Sorry 404. It's just a mean fact. Some studios test a lot and some don't. I'm sure there are valid business reasons for that, but it's still true. DDO launched with tons of bugs. Some were so obvious that there's no way you or anyone else can claim otherwise.

You assume that because a bug is frequent and obvious it is easy (and has a low resource/time cost) to fix.

This is clearly not the case in any SDLC. I have spent months tracking critical bugs in much less complex software.


I don't know if you could answer this, but how big is the team and what's the whole process for testing bug reports and such?

As a comparison....

WOWs QAT alone is ~280 people.

Turbine has ~250 staff total (according to their web site).....


alter table CHARACTERS add PERMADEATH varchar(1) default 0

A character search is much slower than a number search.

parvo
10-21-2009, 11:52 PM
I'd probably be blacklisted by every PD group the second I introduced them to red text :D

Oddly enough, I'm not totally against Parvo's idea.


Yea, it's wierd. Did I pick up Jedi Mind Trick as a class feat or something? Maybe it's kinda like Manyshot on my rangers where I had it on three of them, died and deleted them before I even knew I had it... Usually you bastards aren't so agreeable. I'm not complaining, but it's wierd.

Ranmaru2
10-22-2009, 05:57 AM
has a shaky class design

Actually if you were to try and argue this, then you would be saying that D&D itself has shaky class design. I don't know of a lot of ideas that you could implement to make it less shaky without turning the game into more of a 4.0 model.


misses tons of spells and feats

Practical implementation practices might disallow for many feats and/or spells to be implemented. If currently added spells/abilities are any indication, it seems tough for the developers to really push the envelope of the tech used for ddo:

1) Leap of Faith and Monk ability are almost direct copypasta (Leap of Faith even includes copypasta from the Defender of Siberys defensive stance).
2) Stalwart Defender and Defender of Siberys stances both provide the exact same bonuses and the only difference is that the Stalwart Defender stance doesn't give us the theory that the paladin just amps up on Red Bull.
3) Acid Fog, Stinking Cloud, and Solid Fog graphics basically just different color palettes of the same graphic.
4) Red Dragon breath is the same as fire traps

and on and on and on

Also, the question of relevance and how they would interact with the game itself comes into play. In pen & paper, it's quite easy for one to cast an iron body spell and then note the changes on paper. In DDO however, there's plenty of other additional coding practices that need to occur lest the spell cause all sort of bugs with characters.

Then again, I don't see why we don't have a regeneration spell that we're able to cast.

The anti-magic series of spells is pretty obvious why they don't have that in yet, just look at beholders. They apparently won't implement a suppresion versus a fullout dispel.


suffers from gross imbalance

Sometimes balance isn't the most FUN Borr. Look at the havoc the new combat changes have made. While you introduced the concept for a balance, and the implementation was a little bonkers, it has actually REDUCED the level of fun for many of the vets. I become irate when I have to attack a troll now, as my attack speed makes me have to practically use a whole haste potion to kill, or severely maim, the creature, versus before where I could keep up with its regeneration.

This actually relates to the first point as well, as it's actually in PnP's blood to be unbalanced as you increase in levels, due to the actual rarity of groups getting that high and acquiring the amount of magic loot we have as quick as we do. There's only so much they can do with changes before this would become Turbine's Dungeons & Dragons.


does not support solo really well

DDO supports solo really well, it just has a steeper learning curve that makes one have to understand both group play and solo play in order to actually go solo. It's like Diablo II in that if you don't understand how your own abilities work, surviving on your own, much less, in a party will become overly difficult.


does not offer crafting

It's slowly getting there. With all the legal troubles I'm beginning to understand the slow development over the past one and a half years. Plus, after the failure of crafting that is the shroud (you can't honestly tell me that it's balanced) they have to be extra careful not to create more god weapons/items (Shroud items would be considered artifacts in P&P) for us to use.

Strakeln
10-22-2009, 10:00 AM
Fell off my chair.

Sadly, none of them would fall for it: they already know they never died.

"I wanna see a screenshot of your /death count for proof"

There's a sucker born every minute :D

Chai
10-22-2009, 10:17 AM
Well Tech, I got news for ya. Turb doesn't do lots, let alone massive, testing on anything. Ever. We do that when it goes live.

All of the measures have to pass QA before they are even in beta. Then it gets run on beta where it gets tested by players who have obviously become highly experienced at creating effective builds / tactics etc. Before you even see a measure go live, it has been run through the ringer for a few months at least.

Borror0
10-22-2009, 10:23 AM
Actually if you were to try and argue this, then you would be saying that D&D itself has shaky class design.
That is not true. In spirit, D&D itself had a fairly solid class design but so many things have been rendered obsolete in the translation to a video game that what could have been called a decent class design (especially for a tabletop game) has lost a lot o its strength.

Let's take a look at the prominent cleric traits in D&D:

Healing
Domains
Divine spells
Turn Undead
Heavy armor
Melee combat

When you go to DDO, only healing and divine spells stands out as what makes a cleric. The options of gameplay also go down drastically due to a small quantity of useful spells making the choice for spell slots very easy, even for a favored soul! (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=208923)

To blame D&D solely for this is missing the point. Don't get me wrong, D&D had some serious flaws of implementation and many of those that were intended to be useful were not past a certain point but the intent for a solid class design was there. However, DDO has left behind many traits that are intended to make those classes different one from another.

Practical implementation practices might disallow for many feats and/or spells to be implemented.
To be clear, my position is that all classes should be facing difficult choices when their feats, enhancements and spells. That's not happening.

Your argument does not reply to my position.

Sometimes balance isn't the most FUN Borr.
A sentence is meant to be read from start to finish and each component to be analyzed in that context. You have obviously not done that.

DDO supports solo really well, it just has a steeper learning curve that makes one have to understand both group play and solo play in order to actually go solo.
In other words, it does not support solo well.

It's slowly getting there.
A sentence is meant to be read from start to finish and each component to be analyzed in that context. You have obviously not done that.

Riggs
10-22-2009, 10:39 AM
Because you have to 'mark' the character in the first place.

To do this you must;

Add the persistent storage of that data and migrate all current characters to the new format. (have a look at the issues migrating data caused on Lama).

Ensure that this change to the DB has no other impacts (ie performance in a system where milliseconds count).

Create the user interface to accept and store this data.

Create a new system to apply this new data at the appropriate time and not at any other (ie non PD character loses -1 Con because data migration screwed up).

This event could trigger at any time, any quest and multiple times quickly. That means lots of testing.

OR

Add a new item that has a very similar effect to current item functionality (very limited code and testing required).

This event would only happen when a character initiated the event (ate the tome) and so would require little testing.


What he said.

Or to make it even more simple - DDO is buggy. Many things do not work properly until getting patched a few times, and sometimes still not even then.

I for one, and I am sure MANY people will agree - like everyone who doesnt think devs should spent time modifying the game to suit small groups of people who want "My pnp custom version of a game acted out in DDO" - that using dev time to add a buggy new feature is worth a spit of time.

Like say - res's go buggy, and instead of ONLY working on people that want it, EVERYONE gets a -1 con every res because of some bug that - gee guess what 'no one say the bug in testing' - and the entire population of DDO drops dead and stops being able to play at 0 con until devs scramble to shut the game down and add a hotfix to find out why some new feature 'didnt work as intented'.

Adding in -1 con tomes that you can only eat by choice is a great solution that wont mess up the game, and will take next to no dev time presumably.

Changing the game to make a tiny % happy to see some 'house rules' dnd game is a complete waste of time, and would take away from actual useful changes (and say - time spent fixing more bugs).

You wanna play left handed and with your custom 'My elves are blueskinned and can dig underground' game? Great grab some dice and paper and go nuts - its not DDO, so stop asking for DDO to get changed to add left handed blue burrowing elves.

Cyr
10-22-2009, 10:46 AM
I don't like the restore option. If someone wants to turn it off before thier first raise, fine. Otherwise, if you're in, you're in.

Without a restore option it sounds like a recipe for disaster. A flag that will gimp a toon if set by accident? We all know plenty of new players might hit that one not knowing any better. They may end up with 0 con real fast. Not to mention the case of people growing bored with PD and wanting to do something different. Particularly since PD is very guild specific it almost sounds like a no restore option is like a pact to the death with a guild.

With a restore option sure why not as long as it does not take any significant dev time to implement.

OzmarDDO
10-22-2009, 10:52 AM
I'd probably be blacklisted by every PD group the second I introduced them to red text :D

Oddly enough, I'm not totally against Parvo's idea.

??? What does that mean?

Is this a feature? I want red text! :D

binnsr
10-22-2009, 10:58 AM
A character search is much slower than a number search.
Eh .. you get the jist of it .. I did say that I hadn't done anything with SQL in ages..

Alavatar
10-22-2009, 11:59 AM
I thought the PnP rule was you lost a level when raised, except with True Resurrection. And if you are raised at L1 instead of loosing a level you would then loose a point of CON.

So, wouldn't it make more sense (to be in line with PnP) to suffer an incurable negative level until you have acquired (Level x 1000) EXP? (Or Level x 10,000 EXP to be in line with DDO) If negative levels = (Level -1) then the next death would cause permanent CON loss.

Edit: And, as a note, don't some MMOs have an "Ironman" mode that is similar to what Permadeath attempts to emulate?

Strakeln
10-22-2009, 12:06 PM
??? What does that mean?

Is this a feature? I want red text! :D

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=183625

If the image in the first post doesn't show up, it will be hard to understand... otherwise this should explain all :)

OzmarDDO
10-22-2009, 12:24 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=183625

If the image in the first post doesn't show up, it will be hard to understand... otherwise this should explain all :)

Funny! I think some of the responses in the thread are the best part. How is it that such humorless people (apparently) enjoy spending their time playing online games?

Thanks!
-Ozmar the Amused

binnsr
10-22-2009, 12:39 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=183625

If the image in the first post doesn't show up, it will be hard to understand... otherwise this should explain all :)

Even better than your OP in that thread was Emili's color guildchat one..


Is actually sad some people actually fall for that... Then again we've a lot of new players who have no clue lately of the UI let alone the / commands.

Not long ago I was using colours in guild chat via < RBG=#E110F8 > and such... when a newer guildie asked how I was doing that - I said alt-F4 pops up the colour list and you pick them from there. He logs back in 5 minutes later and says in guildchat - hey the game booted me. :)

404error
10-22-2009, 12:50 PM
thanks for that. I'm actually looking to get into game QA (applying at some local studios right now) and that was kinda neat getting to hear about it.

If your local to boston. (http://www.cytiva.com/turbin/ext/DetailTurbine.asp?turbin1853)

Lorien_the_First_One
10-22-2009, 12:52 PM
If your local to boston. (http://www.cytiva.com/turbin/ext/DetailTurbine.asp?turbin1853)

Hmm...college degree to play a game...I find that amusing somehow.

Borror0
10-22-2009, 12:59 PM
Hmm...college degree to play a game...I find that amusing somehow.
It's just a measure used to estimate if you can work seriously at achieving a long term goal. When you have to play the same game on and on for 40 hours/week, it's a requirement. Sometimes, you'll have to accomplish extremely redundant tasks that will make you want to kill yourself.

You don't only have to play the game. You also have to follow specs, write test plans, etc. It's more complicated than "playing a game."

Ranmaru2
10-22-2009, 01:18 PM
That is not true. In spirit, D&D itself had a fairly solid class design but so many things have been rendered obsolete in the translation to a video game that what could have been called a decent class design (especially for a tabletop game) has lost a lot o its strength.

Let's take a look at the prominent cleric traits in D&D:

Healing
Domains
Divine spells
Turn Undead
Heavy armor
Melee combat

When you go to DDO, only healing and divine spells stands out as what makes a cleric. The options of gameplay also go down drastically due to a small quantity of useful spells making the choice for spell slots very easy, even for a favored soul! (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=208923)


To blame D&D solely for this is missing the point. Don't get me wrong, D&D had some serious flaws of implementation and many of those that were intended to be useful were not past a certain point but the intent for a solid class design was there. However, DDO has left behind many traits that are intended to make those classes different one from another.

The only thing missing from that list is Domains, and the HD inflation they have to use because of a high magic compaign makes Turn Undead require heavy investment. However, you don't fight many undead at high levels (until maybe the new mod), so it's not exactly a huge issue, as the undead can be turned at level (you may not insta-kill them, but you can turn them to fear). Clerics can still be built to melee and be full healbots, but you can't do it while maintaining a high ac, so Dex/Int basically become dump stats. However this isn't the build forums, where this debate should actually take place.

Fighters are where your point disintegrates. The only thing that Fighters get easy access to is Overwhelming and Devastating critical to allow them to become better, more reliable endgame weapons, otherwise they're just basic meat shields even in PnP. Paladins and Barbarians are balanced to keep up because of their other abilities, while a fighter always lacks behind. Rangers are more balanced in PnP than here, but they haven't changed too much since DDOs inception.

And as far as the many things, what exactly was rendered obsolete?


To be clear, my position is that all classes should be facing difficult choices when their feats, enhancements and spells. That's not happening.

Your argument does not reply to my position.

Feat difficulties are only as difficult as one's understanding of the game itself. Enhancements should be more varied yes, but that creates a problem of offering too much to current builds. If we had more of a system of being able to lock out one type of enhancement if another is taken, then we could include more enhancements. However, this would require the devs to actually have Tolero/Tarrant gathering information from the Build discussion forums about all the OBVIOUS possibilities that the changes they implement bring/allow. High ACs with monk splash should have been able to be seen a mile away, just like back in launch with the Paladin's aura giving +2 to AC and +2 saves.


A sentence is meant to be read from start to finish and each component to be analyzed in that context. You have obviously not done that.

Context: "DDO is far from a polished/finished product because it contains things I feel should be in the game, or has things in the game that I don't approve of [aka balance/imbalances]" They're taken perfectly in context, and I couldn't have even replied to your post if I didn't even read it, now could I? If you don't have a point on a reply, why include some snide remark about "failure" on my part?


In other words, it does not support solo well.

No, it supports solo very well, in that the game forces you to learn mechanics about the game through group play which you can then take into actual solo play. Actually, it's fully possible to solo to cap (gotten to lvl 13 practically solo on my intimitank) and requires a combination of different tactics learned: A) from group play, B) solo play, or C) Hybrids.


If your local to boston. (http://www.cytiva.com/turbin/ext/DetailTurbine.asp?turbin1853)

:( you guys need a wisconsin expansion or something...I'd like to apply but being in college doesn't allow for it..

bobbryan2
10-22-2009, 01:25 PM
No, it supports solo very well, in that the game forces you to learn mechanics about the game through group play which you can then take into actual solo play. Actually, it's fully possible to solo to cap (gotten to lvl 13 practically solo on my intimitank) and requires a combination of different tactics learned: A) from group play, B) solo play, or C) Hybrids.


C'mon... I love to solo as much as the next guy, but you can't honestly try to convince us that DDO supports solo "very well."

Arianrhod
10-22-2009, 01:32 PM
C'mon... I love to solo as much as the next guy, but you can't honestly try to convince us that DDO supports solo "very well."

Well, DDO has the most fun & challenging soloable stuff of any MMO I've seen. Most of them, if you can solo it, it's just plain dull. If it's made to be challenging, you really can't solo it (at least not for exp).

Borror0
10-22-2009, 01:52 PM
The only thing missing from that list is Domains, and the HD inflation they have to use because of a high magic compaign makes Turn Undead require heavy investment. However, you don't fight many undead at high levels (until maybe the new mod), so it's not exactly a huge issue, as the undead can be turned at level (you may not insta-kill them, but you can turn them to fear). Clerics can still be built to melee and be full healbots, but you can't do it while maintaining a high ac, so Dex/Int basically become dump stats. However this isn't the build forums, where this debate should actually take place.

Fighters are where your point disintegrates. The only thing that Fighters get easy access to is Overwhelming and Devastating critical to allow them to become better, more reliable endgame weapons, otherwise they're just basic meat shields even in PnP. Paladins and Barbarians are balanced to keep up because of their other abilities, while a fighter always lacks behind. Rangers are more balanced in PnP than here, but they haven't changed too much since DDOs inception.

And as far as the many things, what exactly was rendered obsolete?
Before I begin explaining, let me stress something that I have said but perhaps not put enough emphasis on: D&D has a class design that is decent for a tabletop game. However, the transition from a tabletop game changes many things and many other things have been changed because of the transition (spell points, enhancements, etc.) which changes the analysis quite a bit.

In a tabletop roleplaying game, classes are analyzed in regards to what has been given to them since there is no specific environment which is only decided by the DM. If a class feature is rendered obsolete by the environment, the fault often rests on the DM for not building encounters that make this feature close to useful. However, in a CRPG, the faults rest on the designers: they have given the classes features that are supposed to distinguish them one from another but, in the end, do not because they never become meaningful advantages.

Also, as I have said before, many things have been redesigned in DDO which means that the two games have different class designs. A few example of those are gazing hits, monks, spell points, Favored Enemy, enhancements and the significantly smaller quantity of available spells, skills and feats. That's just the beginning of it. There is a long list of things that are true to 3.5 D&D that are not true to DDO and vise versa.

Now, onto what you've said, there are many things that were not intended to be meaningless that are, indeed, meaningless in DDO. Armor proficiency is the poster child: rarely, if ever matter even though it was intended to. BAB is another example. Turn Undeads, as well. Additional skill points is also one.

Basically, many things that should have been a class defining trait is not one. It might be there but it's not like you really care.

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that D&D's class design is perfect by any means. It's quite flawed. However, I don't think that it's fair to push the blame on 3.5 D&D as the source of all of that. It would have been possible to go closer to the design intents of 3.5 D&D while improving the class design.

Enhancements should be more varied yes, but that creates a problem of offering too much to current builds.
That does not undermine my argument.

Context: "DDO is far from a polished/finished product because it contains things I feel should be in the game, or has things in the game that I don't approve of
No, those are not my standards. I am going by what typical gamers expect from their MMO.

If it was my standards, the list would have been different in some parts.

I couldn't have even replied to your post if I didn't even read it, now could I?
I never said you didn't read it. My sentence had two elements to it.

No, it supports solo very well, in that the game forces you to learn mechanics about the game through group play which you can then take into actual solo play.
If it fails to meet the industry's standards, it does not support solo well. Rogues are a blatant example of that.

Ranmaru2
10-22-2009, 02:27 PM
For one, this game is meant to exist as a differentiation from the other MMO games out there, so trying to apply industry standards to a game trying to push the envelope in many areas kind of lacks the impact it might have on, say Aion or Age of Conan (which was basically: HEY NUDITY! Wait..this is like everything else *Arms flailing*). The nature of the beast differs in many different ways to other MMOs out there:

Crafting: Other MMOs you find stuff and then put it all together nicely after killing a bunch of monsters and it has set perameters, versus a D&D world where you can take a masterwork sword and make it into the most deadly weapon Ebberon/Faerun has ever seen with the massive amount of possible enchantments you can put on weapons. However, this enchantment aspect comes at a price (XP and Gold). These two penalties would mean NOTHING in DDO where overabundance of XP and Platinum would allow for easy reacquisition of XP and money, UNLESS they put in the system with a vengeance.

I'm hoping the epic crafting opens up new tech possibilities to allow for basic crafting, but I see that becoming a problem, as that might even eliminate the need for random loot (unless it'll rely on random loot in the first place).

As far as rogues go, I wish they'd say that they're an advanced class, as they require a lot more understanding and different tactics from the normal hack and slash to get through content. Rogues can solo, but it requires more finesse than anything. This game really forces you to learn about every piece of the character sheet for when you're out doing quests. If one class has a tougher time soloing than another, it's more on how creative you actually are. It's like going through Clive Barker's Jericho, sometimes there's obvious ways to solve the encounter, other times you'll have to put a little thought into how to do it.

Now onto Enhancements. I should have clarified this point a little more. Enhancement introduction has really been the Achilles' heel of DDO lately, as it's great to see more coming, but it's also the origin of a lot of developmental problems as well:

1) Stats getting higher than you'd usually expect them to stay
2) Increasing abilities too high (spell ranges increased too high)
3) Adding too many bonuses (Stalwart/Siberys/Undead Hunter/Knight of the Chalice - Saves, stats, AC, immunities, hate, etc.)
4) Racial Choices become too easy to coordinate to builds (Racial enhancements really are overpowered in this game - such as Halfling guile/cunning)
5) Allow for splash to become more powerful/useful than it should (paly/monk/ranger/fighter/rogue splashes)

The problems the enhancement system introduces is probably another byproduct on why grazing hits were developed, as well as why the developers feel mobs should average 1000-2000 hp and why bosses have a necessity to meet a minimum 8,000 hp level.

While I want more Enhancements and/or capstones, I kind of dread the developmental implications they'll have on future adjustments to the game.

Borror0
10-22-2009, 02:31 PM
For one, this game is meant to exist as a differentiation from the other MMO games out there
When you do something atypical but fun, it's called an innovation. When you do something atypical but not fun, it's called a mistake or a flaw.

Don't conflate the two as one.

dragonruler
10-22-2009, 02:45 PM
If your local to boston. (http://www.cytiva.com/turbin/ext/DetailTurbine.asp?turbin1853)

:( /sad day I have so been trying to find job opportunities to help me get some work experience with games but there are like no places where i'm at to do this. Tryin to get through this first degree really fast so i can finally move and get my game design degree. (soooo much school ug)

wamjratl1
10-22-2009, 02:46 PM
allz i knowz iz you perma-deathers are ****ing crazy. ;)

OzmarDDO
10-22-2009, 02:51 PM
allz i knowz iz you perma-deathers are ****ing crazy. ;)

*GRIN!* :D

All I know is, my highest level character (level 5) died a few days ago, and now my highest level is only 3. But when I get one up to 20 (and I will...) I'm going to have learned a lot.

-Ozmar the Crazy Permadeather

Borror0
10-22-2009, 03:43 PM
:( /sad day I have so been trying to find job opportunities to help me get some work experience with games but there are like no places where i'm at to do this. Tryin to get through this first degree really fast so i can finally move and get my game design degree. (soooo much school ug)
Careful that it's not a game studies, animation or programming class disguised as a "game design" class because it sounds better. When I looked for one near from where I lived, I came across a few course that didn't really teach much about game design theories. For more on the topic see this (http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/770/game_curricula_differences_in_.php?page=1).

This, with the fact that most game developers that I poked over the summer told me that most game studios prefer hiring internally people they know to have a good design sense rather than risk hiring a young one freshly out of school with little to actually contribute, persuaded me to not bother with a game design degree. Most game designers come from QA teams where they proved themselves to provide good feedback and have great ideas. MadFloyd told me that QA was the way to "separate the man from the boys."

Another link you might be interested by is this blog (http://gamedesignconcepts.wordpress.com/) by Ian Schreiber. It's a course on game design that you can take at your own pace.

Strakeln
10-22-2009, 04:21 PM
MadFloyd told me that QA was the way to "separate the man from the boys."
I wonder what exactly he meant by that.

Where I work, QA teams consist of SW Engineers that couldn't cut the mustard, for whatever reason. The funny thing is, some of those guys really excelled at QA - to the point of being specifically requested by name - once they got kicked into the basement.

This post is not intended as a slight on QA folks. A quality QA person is worth their weight in gold.

Borror0
10-22-2009, 04:42 PM
I wonder what exactly he meant by that.

Where I work, QA teams consist of SW Engineers that couldn't cut the mustard, for whatever reason.
Game development is far more glamorous than software development. As a result, you've got tons of people who want to design games but very few have what it takes. Even if you follow a game design degree, it does not mean you'll be a good game designer. All the opposite, very little game designers have actual game design degrees.

Rather than pick a total stranger and hope he is any good, what is often done is hiring QA people who have proved to be worth their grain of salt internally.

Thus, QA often serve as door of entry for game designers: you start in QA, prove that you can be a serious worker, exchange with the game designers, prove that you have a good design and then hope that someone offers you a job as a junior game designer (Turbine seems to call that position "associate game designer" instead). The "boys," on the other hand, either stay stuck in QA forever or just give up and change to an easier career.

EDIT: When you have your first shipped game or 2+ years of experience as a designer, it becomes easier to move around.

dragonruler
10-22-2009, 04:52 PM
Careful that it's not a game studies, animation or programming class disguised as a "game design" class because it sounds better. When I looked for one near from where I lived, I came across a few course that didn't really teach much about game design theories. For more on the topic see this (http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/770/game_curricula_differences_in_.php?page=1).

This, with the fact that most game developers that I poked over the summer told me that most game studios prefer hiring internally people they know to have a good design sense rather than risk hiring a young one freshly out of school with little to actually contribute, persuaded me to not bother with a game design degree. Most game designers come from QA teams where they proved themselves to provide good feedback and have great ideas. MadFloyd told me that QA was the way to "separate the man from the boys."

Another link you might be interested by is this blog (http://gamedesignconcepts.wordpress.com/) by Ian Schreiber. It's a course on game design that you can take at your own pace.

Thanks for that info. I'm currently workin on gettin my BS in Computer Science. Then im gonna work to get my Master's in Game Design and while im working on getting that degree try and do some co-op'ing with a gaming company so that i can get some hands on experience so that i have a better understanding of what's going on and what not. Believe me i have been doing lots of research and study how these things are handled cuz this is something i really wanna get into.

Now on your comment on the QA teams, how would propose i try and do this? I'm in Huntsville, AL where there are like no gaming companies or anything like that near me. That's why i am looking for doing work at home through a company and what not.

Borror0
10-22-2009, 05:19 PM
Now on your comment on the QA teams, how would propose i try and do this? I'm in Huntsville, AL where there are like no gaming companies or anything like that near me. That's why i am looking for doing work at home through a company and what not.
The only result for Alabama that I can find on http://www.gameindustrymap.com/map.php is IDGA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Game_Developers_Association).

Compare that to Austin, Boston or Montreal. It's like night and day. You're in a tough location for finding jobs in game development.

dragonruler
10-22-2009, 07:06 PM
The only result for Alabama that I can find on http://www.gameindustrymap.com/map.php is IDGA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Game_Developers_Association).

Compare that to Austin, Boston or Montreal. It's like night and day. You're in a tough location for finding jobs in game development.

heh dont need to tell me that :P thats why im moving to boston when i get done with my CS degree here lol.

oberon131313
10-22-2009, 07:41 PM
If your local to boston. (http://www.cytiva.com/turbin/ext/DetailTurbine.asp?turbin1853)

yeah, unfortunately I'm the other coast, but there's a few studios out here.
EA has a branch, and Cryptic is about 10 minutes from my house. I'd like to work for Turbine West, but all I saw on your job boards for SF was Development Director, Associate Game Systems Engineer and Senior Game Systems Engineer. Maybe once I get some experience under my belt you guys can pay me to relocate :D

Borror0
10-22-2009, 08:05 PM
EA has a branch, and Cryptic is about 10 minutes from my house.
Oh my. You have to move.

oberon131313
10-22-2009, 08:30 PM
Oh my. You have to move.

care to elaborate?

Borror0
10-22-2009, 08:39 PM
care to elaborate?
I'm not too keen on the idea of working for a studio owned by Atari. As for EA, they are infamous for abusing crunch time (mandatory overtime is to be expected in any studio - don't even consider working in the industry if you are not prepared for it - but they seem to use it far more than the norm from what I heard).

I was just making a joke about the choices available to you. In all honestly, we got to start somewhere, eh?

oberon131313
10-22-2009, 09:10 PM
I'm not too keen on the idea of working for a studio owned by Atari. As for EA, they are infamous for abusing crunch time (mandatory overtime is to be expected in any studio - don't even consider working in the industry if you are not prepared for it - but they seem to use it far more than the norm from what I heard).

I was just making a choice about the choices available to you. In all honestly, we got to start somewhere, eh?

yeah, it's not my ideal starting place because of Atari (and also because I think DDO would be right up my alley) but cryptic has some decent stuff coming up that I don't think I'd mind. And as far as mandatory overtime, yeah, I've heard about crunch time and am ok with it.

And yeah, I'd love to move to Austin for the sheer amount of opportunity, or Westwood to work for Turbine, but I need to get a more solid foundation before I can really consider doing either.

parvo
10-22-2009, 09:12 PM
Hijacked by QA. What's next, the cube starting flame wars?

Borror0
10-22-2009, 09:13 PM
I need to get a more solid foundation before I can really consider doing either.
I need that as well, oh and a green card.

Hijacked my QA. What's next, the cube starting flame wars?
+rep

oberon131313
10-22-2009, 09:14 PM
Hijacked my QA. What's next, the cube starting flame wars?

404 did say he was the bringer of evil or something like that.

Borror0
10-22-2009, 09:17 PM
404 did say he was the bringer of evil or something like that.
The Bringer of Bad news.

The Bringer of All Evils is Tarrant (as well as the Destroyer of All Good Things).

oberon131313
10-22-2009, 09:20 PM
The Bringer of Bad news.

The Bringer of All Evils is Tarrant (as well as the Destroyer of All Good Things).

there ya go. I suppose your thread getting hijacked by QA falls under bad news...

Personally, I find it fitting revenge for Parvo's earlier comments about QA

404error
10-22-2009, 09:51 PM
http://www.englishforum.ch/attachments/family-matters/98d1158920230-kindergartens-oerlikon-zurich-hijack.gif

atraice17
10-22-2009, 09:55 PM
so what are all the rules to this permadeath ? I would maybe be interested in this.

Borror0
10-22-2009, 09:56 PM
http://www.englishforum.ch/attachments/family-matters/98d1158920230-kindergartens-oerlikon-zurich-hijack.gif
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af8/Borror0/Kanye404.jpg

parvo
10-22-2009, 10:37 PM
I knew there was something going on when you bastards were being nice. All just a setup. :p


-1 con tome is OK, but without the tag, it's not as cool.

dragonruler
10-22-2009, 10:44 PM
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af8/Borror0/Kanye404.jpg

you sir are epic in the win department with that pic lol :D

*note: apparently i have given you too much rep or your at max possible rep cuz it told me to spread the rep around lol. so ill leave a text rep (+1 rep) lol

TechNoFear
10-22-2009, 11:02 PM
Game development is far more glamorous than software development. As a result, you've got tons of people who want to design games but very few have what it takes.

IME many devs are unable to create a greenfield, bespoke applications (convert a requirements/functional spec into a SW design and then get a team to build it).


Thus, QA often serve as door of entry for game designers: you start in QA, prove that you can be a serious worker, exchange with the game designers, prove that you have a good design and then hope that someone offers you a job as a junior game designer

Good QAT pick up more than just bugs.

QAT is a thankless task, imagine someone who's job is to find fault with your work....

Angelus_dead
10-23-2009, 12:06 AM
Rather than pick a total stranger and hope he is any good, what is often done is hiring QA people who have proved to be worth their grain of salt internally.
Yes, for one thing because games are a more subjective matter than most software development, the testers have an opportunity for some actually creative suggestions in their feedback. It happens in other big-budget entertainment fields too, such as where a gopher can work up to a movie producer.

OzmarDDO
10-23-2009, 08:42 AM
so what are all the rules to this permadeath ? I would maybe be interested in this.

It depends on the guild, but the commonly defining rule is basically: if you die, you delete your character.

Here are the Valhalla Permadeath Guild Rules (the guild in which I am a member):

PermaDeath Guild Rules:
1) If you die you delete unless resurrected by spell or ability.
2) No use of resurrection shrines.
3) Open quests on hardest available setting when in a group.
4) No use of Auction House ever.
5) You may only "sell" to brokers.
6) No buying consumable magic (wands, potions, scrolls).
7) No Pick-Up Group's, Twinking, Exploits, or Spoilers.


Here is a link to the recruiting thread if you are interested in more: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166527

-Ozmar the Valhallan

OzmarDDO
10-23-2009, 08:52 AM
Most permadeath players really don't care about reincarnation for their PD characters, however we would like a stat decrease on raise option.

--Players have the option of turning this on only at character creation.
--The option creates a permenant flag in bio or floaty name tag.
--The option can be turned off at any time, but can never be turned back on.
--Every raise decreases constitution permenantly by 1.

This option would be a good way of satisfying permadeath players desire for a challenge while allowing for some deaths along the way.

To return to the OP, I have been thinking, and I like this idea, however, I think that the current system of voluntary adherence to the Permadeath rules & spirit by guild membership is preferable.

Our guild allows resurrection if your death was caused by a glitch, lag, or connection failure. I recently started up a new character with a group and died twice on Korthos Island due to some kind of bug in which your character gets levitated, suspended, and then killed if he stands in a certain place on the edge of a cliff. The other players recognized this and I simply recalled to the inn and ran back to the group. No harm, no foul; we continued on our merry way. If the system had been enforcing a permadeath style of play, I would have either been down 2 Con or have to restart, and appeal to the developers for arbitration & restoration, which would have turned a minor inconvenience into a serious annoyance.

I think that an optional -1 Con tome seems interesting. Our guild does allow resurrection by character ability within a quest, but we need to track the number of rezzes, and it is limited by our Con score. While our Con does not actually decrease, we do track it in our bio, and once we've reached our limit, no more rezzes are allowed.

And as for a permanent flag in your character's name? Mine says: "Member, Valhalla Permadeath Guild". That seems like a good flag to me.

-Ozmar the Voluntary Permadeather

parvo
10-23-2009, 04:46 PM
...Our guild does allow resurrection by character ability within a quest, but we need to track the number of rezzes, and it is limited by our Con score. While our Con does not actually decrease, we do track it in our bio, and once we've reached our limit, no more rezzes are allowed...

I'm pretty aware of that rule Ozmar. KG and I talk a bit about PD rules and such and we freely use each others ideas. I think an actual con loss is a great penalty for death though. It really makes death hurt like hell but allows for raises. It's not just about PD. I can see "normal" players using it beyond PD rulesets.

wamjratl1
10-23-2009, 05:11 PM
*GRIN!* :D

All I know is, my highest level character (level 5) died a few days ago, and now my highest level is only 3. But when I get one up to 20 (and I will...) I'm going to have learned a lot.

-Ozmar the Crazy Permadeather

awesome. and +1 for being a crazy permadeather.

Ranmaru2
10-23-2009, 07:44 PM
awesome. and +1 for being a crazy permadeather.

Then how does Mav continue to survive? :D

TrenchcoatJesus
10-24-2009, 12:25 AM
I'm pretty aware of that rule Ozmar. KG and I talk a bit about PD rules and such and we freely use each others ideas. I think an actual con loss is a great penalty for death though. It really makes death hurt like hell but allows for raises. It's not just about PD. I can see "normal" players using it beyond PD rulesets.

While I can understand this request, I have to ask one question:

Do permadeath players not run shroud?

I mean, that and bugged/lagged deaths are enough to make the feature a major headache for any that try it out, permadeath or not. I think the honor system is the way to do it, not a new game feature. That's just me, though.

-TcJ

parvo
10-24-2009, 02:09 AM
While I can understand this request, I have to ask one question:

Do permadeath players not run shroud?

I mean, that and bugged/lagged deaths are enough to make the feature a major headache for any that try it out, permadeath or not. I think the honor system is the way to do it, not a new game feature. That's just me, though.

-TcJ

Most of the big PD guilds count lag deaths like any other now. Bug deaths are very rare. I wouldn't call the guy who died from falling off the edge of a tall cliff a bug. I'd call it a guy that got too close to the edge. And no, most don't make it to the shroud. I make it pretty clear in MV that players who choose our guild are not entitled to run all the content. Overall, DDO is well suited to PD play, but not all of it.

bobbryan2
10-24-2009, 04:06 AM
Most of the big PD guilds count lag deaths like any other now. Bug deaths are very rare. I wouldn't call the guy who died from falling off the edge of a tall cliff a bug. I'd call it a guy that got too close to the edge. And no, most don't make it to the shroud. I make it pretty clear in MV that players who choose our guild are not entitled to run all the content. Overall, DDO is well suited to PD play, but not all of it.

But that's kinda the point, right? You guys never run the problem quests. So asking for game mechanics when you don't run the problem quests already is kinda silly.

I mean, if you're making personal rules now... why stop?

parvo
10-24-2009, 08:52 AM
But that's kinda the point, right? You guys never run the problem quests. So asking for game mechanics when you don't run the problem quests already is kinda silly.

I mean, if you're making personal rules now... why stop?

That doesn't make any sense. We have no means of reducing constitution upon a raise. We'd like one. It has nothing to do with whatever you're calling "problem quests".

Visty
10-24-2009, 10:31 AM
Most of the big PD guilds count lag deaths like any other now. Bug deaths are very rare. I wouldn't call the guy who died from falling off the edge of a tall cliff a bug. I'd call it a guy that got too close to the edge. And no, most don't make it to the shroud. I make it pretty clear in MV that players who choose our guild are not entitled to run all the content. Overall, DDO is well suited to PD play, but not all of it.

think you misunderstood him
what he talked about IS a bug

its at the guy for the lowroadquest (rescue the fishmen or whatever that is called) at the entranve from korthos island
theres a spot at him where, if you jump there, you float there. and the game treats that like falling, means, once you touch ground again you get like 100 falling dmg
and a lowlvl char doesnt survive that

GeneralDiomedes
10-24-2009, 10:46 AM
But that's kinda the point, right? You guys never run the problem quests. So asking for game mechanics when you don't run the problem quests already is kinda silly.


This is basically true. However, if you look at the total content of the game, the "problem quests" represent a small fraction. For myself and many others, PD is really about making the majority of the content more enjoyable, and through fear instill the feeling of a dungeon crawl.

Having said that, from my extensive observation of PD questing habits, I think this rule goes too far, and the list of rarely run or never run quests would grow even larger than it already has.

Alavatar
10-24-2009, 05:40 PM
That doesn't make any sense. We have no means of reducing constitution upon a raise. We'd like one. It has nothing to do with whatever you're calling "problem quests".

But ...


I thought the PnP rule was you lost a level when raised, except with True Resurrection. And if you are raised at L1 instead of loosing a level you would then loose a point of CON.

So, wouldn't it make more sense (to be in line with PnP) to suffer an incurable negative level until you have acquired (Level x 1000) EXP? (Or Level x 10,000 EXP to be in line with DDO) If negative levels = (Level -1) then the next death would cause permanent CON loss.

Edit: And, as a note, don't some MMOs have an "Ironman" mode that is similar to what Permadeath attempts to emulate?

parvo
10-24-2009, 05:52 PM
But ...

Although the idea has roots in pnp play, it's not intended to mimic pnp play exactly. That's not a bad proposal though.

Atenhotep
10-25-2009, 12:58 PM
Most permadeath players really don't care about reincarnation for their PD characters, however we would like a stat decrease on raise option.

--Players have the option of turning this on only at character creation.
--The option creates a permenant flag in bio or floaty name tag.
--The option can be turned off at any time, but can never be turned back on.
--Every raise decreases constitution permenantly by 1.

This option would be a good way of satisfying permadeath players desire for a challenge while allowing for some deaths along the way.

YES! Absolutely! +1 rep

Tyrande
10-26-2009, 01:17 AM
Hmm...college degree to play a game...I find that amusing somehow.

This is off-topic but I will give my 2 cents.

No, no, QA is different from playing the game. There are different forms of QA. It deals with code coverage and you have to come up with strategies on how to test the product to ensure all code paths are covered.

In order to test large amount of code, some automation or scripting may be required. Of course, scripting means programming and that means college degree.

Just playing the game without methodology is a waste of QA time.

OzmarDDO
10-26-2009, 06:36 AM
Most of the big PD guilds count lag deaths like any other now. Bug deaths are very rare. I wouldn't call the guy who died from falling off the edge of a tall cliff a bug. I'd call it a guy that got too close to the edge. And no, most don't make it to the shroud. I make it pretty clear in MV that players who choose our guild are not entitled to run all the content. Overall, DDO is well suited to PD play, but not all of it.

IME, bug deaths are rare. This was the only time that I experienced it, but it was definitely a bug. I walked to the edge of the cliff with a plan to shoot the sahuagin from above. I didn't step over it. And the second time was when I was on some steps near the falls. If I had stepped down, it wouldn't have hurt, let alone killed me. In both cases, my movement suddenly stopped, I was "levitated" up and frozen for a few seconds, and then bam! dead.

The other players called it a bug, and I agreed. I've fallen off cliffs to my death before, and know the difference. :)

But this is the only time it's happened to me. The game is very bug-free IME.

Don't know Shroud... do you have to die in it for story purposes?

-Ozmar the Bugged

parvo
10-26-2009, 07:58 AM
IME, bug deaths are rare. This was the only time that I experienced it, but it was definitely a bug. I walked to the edge of the cliff with a plan to shoot the sahuagin from above. I didn't step over it. And the second time was when I was on some steps near the falls. If I had stepped down, it wouldn't have hurt, let alone killed me. In both cases, my movement suddenly stopped, I was "levitated" up and frozen for a few seconds, and then bam! dead.

The other players called it a bug, and I agreed. I've fallen off cliffs to my death before, and know the difference. :)

But this is the only time it's happened to me. The game is very bug-free IME.

Don't know Shroud... do you have to die in it for story purposes?

-Ozmar the Bugged

Turbine has apparently reincarnated an old falling damage bug. This used to be pretty common. I guess it comes and goes. We had a memeber take 70 points of falling damage in an area with no fall and about 20-ft high ceiling. Still, con damage with the rare bug is better than no con damage.

kafrielveddicus
10-26-2009, 08:39 AM
While I can understand this request, I have to ask one question:

Do permadeath players not run shroud?

I mean, that and bugged/lagged deaths are enough to make the feature a major headache for any that try it out, permadeath or not. I think the honor system is the way to do it, not a new game feature. That's just me, though.

-TcJ

Some permadeath guilds intend to run all content!!!

This is why a CON stat drain is a bad idea as quest like the Shroud with an auto death need not count as a death because this is simply a game mechanic which need not reflect a pen and paper style, keeping it fun is important!!!

Not to mention other things like the falling thru the floor damage bug, or the lag while i am in mid air bug which can turn a 10 ft fall into a 300 ft fall!!! Also it is convenient to use the /death to get out of a stuck spot instead of waiting for a Gamemaster to resolve your ticket!!!

Stay Safe and Happy Hunting!!!

TrenchcoatJesus
10-26-2009, 01:21 PM
Turbine has apparently reincarnated an old falling damage bug. This used to be pretty common. I guess it comes and goes. We had a memeber take 70 points of falling damage in an area with no fall and about 20-ft high ceiling. Still, con damage with the rare bug is better than no con damage.

For you.

This is what Bobbyryan was getting at above: Just because something is preferable for you and your playstyle does not mean it should be an option for everyone. Like I said above I can understand the request, but adjudicating lagged deaths, bugged deaths, or even required deaths (Shroud) when you are talking about a large volume of players using this option (intentionally or unintentionally, which is another issue altogether) is enough for me to look at and say, "Too much work, too little benefit."

This feature doesn't allow you to do anything new, as you said you can already track constitution loss and scrap characters as you need to. You can play the game you want to the way you want to without adding this change. The only "benefit" is lowering your con score artificially.

By careful selection of items you can already emulate this to a degree by limiting your enhancement bonus to constitution. Say a level 5 PD character is using a belt of con +2 and dies once, is raised, and is henceforth limited to a con+1 belt. Likewise if he makes it up to level 13, he could use up to a con+5 belt. Purposefully choosing to fore go the benefit of an enhancement bonus to constitution sounds far more in line with the PD honor system, and requires only effort on your part, not the developers/QA/etc.

Compare this to the work of adding the feature itself, and the headache/confusion for newer players that choose this option by mistake (and are, I assume, eventually left with 0 constitution?). As Bobby said if we're just going to throw in game features of "oh I'd like that" why stop there? Why not add an easy mode for players that don't want a challenge where your hp cannot drop below 1?

-TcJ

OzmarDDO
10-26-2009, 05:21 PM
Some permadeath guilds intend to run all content!!!

... keeping it fun is important!!!

Stay Safe and Happy Hunting!!!

Keeping it fun is important!!! Like not overusing punctuation!!! Stay safe!!! :D

-Ozmar the Agreeable!!!

parvo
10-26-2009, 06:25 PM
Some permadeath guilds intend to run all content!!!

This is why a CON stat drain is a bad idea as quest like the Shroud with an auto death need not count as a death because this is simply a game mechanic which need not reflect a pen and paper style, keeping it fun is important!!!

Not to mention other things like the falling thru the floor damage bug, or the lag while i am in mid air bug which can turn a 10 ft fall into a 300 ft fall!!! Also it is convenient to use the /death to get out of a stuck spot instead of waiting for a Gamemaster to resolve your ticket!!!

Stay Safe and Happy Hunting!!!

This post brought to you by our sponsor << ! >>.

parvo
10-26-2009, 06:28 PM
...Why not add an easy mode for players that don't want a challenge ...

-TcJ

Those players already got their option for easy mode...I want my mode now.

kafrielveddicus
10-27-2009, 09:45 AM
I read in one of the Permadeath guild sites that LOTRO has a function where a toon that has had no deaths has some sort of title hovering over their head, now this would be an excellent boon for Permadeathers, I know I would personally like to see my 25+ permadeath toons from different servers all running around with a zero death title hovering over their head. That is enough to indicate they are true permadeath toons!!! Maybe the Devs could even program the Shroud auto death to not remove this beacon!!!!

moorewr
10-27-2009, 09:52 AM
I read in one of the Permadeath guild sites that LOTRO has a function where a toon that has had no deaths has some sort of title hovering over their head, now this would be an excellent boon for Permadeathers, I know I would personally like to see my 25+ permadeath toons from different servers all running around with a zero death title hovering over their head. That is enough to indicate they are true permadeath toons!!! Maybe the Devs could even program the Shroud auto death to not remove this beacon!!!!

You know, I'm all for it. We sent hirelings over to LOTRO.. the least they can do is send us a bit of floaty text.

Related point - I want Turbine to follow through on the old joke about checking how many times you've died*.. I want /death count to actually tell you your total deaths.

(* which got 10x funnier when /death started recalling you from the instance.)

Bekki
10-27-2009, 10:42 AM
In pen and paper True ressurection actually
does not impact your con stat.

As per Dm's Guide (3.5 Ed. Pg. 41)
and Players Handbook (3.5 Ed. Pg. 171)

Any character brought back to life (Unless by True Ressurection)
Loses One level of Experience and their X.P total is placed
halfway between their new level and their old one.

The character only loses con at first level and that is 2 pts.

In first and second Ed. The Dm had the option to lower
a characters con stat each time a character was raised.

This was to represent the trauma of being brought back.

But this too did not have to be actual.
What was commonly does was a tally was kept.
Based on your Original constitution.
And you could only be raised or ressurected that number of times.
(Even if your con. was increased over time.)

I believe that is what Parvo is looking for.

I would have no problem with them adding a check box
to the UI Options panel for a Permadeath feature.
This would or could be defaulted to off.

Those who desire to, could toggle it on.
Therefore it would be totally transparent
to those who do not play permadeath.

Just because we do not play permadeath I see no reason
to deny those who do, a little something to make their playstyle
a little easier to manage.

I tip my Helm to those who choose this challanging style of play.

The could even add a warning box at log in to remind the player
that the permadeath option is in force, or upon Toggling it on.

In addition, upon first toggling it on
It could ask you if you are sure you want to enable that option
and have a check box that says yes or no.

You click yes and you are now playing Permadeath.

I would support this I think it is a cool Idea Parvo.

Rock on Parvo.

Bekki
10-27-2009, 10:46 AM
I read in one of the Permadeath guild sites that LOTRO has a function where a toon that has had no deaths has some sort of title hovering over their head, now this would be an excellent boon for Permadeathers, I know I would personally like to see my 25+ permadeath toons from different servers all running around with a zero death title hovering over their head. That is enough to indicate they are true permadeath toons!!! Maybe the Devs could even program the Shroud auto death to not remove this beacon!!!!

You are correct, that is the "Undying" title.
And there are at least three Tiers of this.

They have certain Milestone levels and if you reach
these levels without dying once, you get a special title.

Pretty cool if you ask me... ;)

parvo
10-28-2009, 07:44 AM
I don't really care much about a title. In itself, it's meaningless to many, and therefore doesn't impact play. I'm looking for a meaningful impact of failure. Permanent constitution loss would be a nice way to do it. Furthermore, the proposal outlined, while having great impact, doesn't expose the characters death or lack of to others. The tag would just essentially say "If my character died, it lost one point of constitution from raise". Not "My character has never died". If I was so inclined, I could already put a tag in the bio that tells the world my character has never died.

kafrielveddicus
10-28-2009, 10:53 AM
I don't really care much about a title. In itself, it's meaningless to many, and therefore doesn't impact play. I'm looking for a meaningful impact of failure. Permanent constitution loss would be a nice way to do it. Furthermore, the proposal outlined, while having great impact, doesn't expose the characters death or lack of to others. The tag would just essentially say "If my character died, it lost one point of constitution from raise". Not "My character has never died". If I was so inclined, I could already put a tag in the bio that tells the world my character has never died.

It seems to me that losing that title would indicate failure in a true permadeath sense, although how about this for a suggestion, put a NPC in the game who you could talk to and willingly lower any one of your Base Stats which could also cost you the use of Feats based of that stat.

ie.

speak with Parvo Fallenstat in the Marketplace

Parvo says "Hello are you in need of repentance", player selects "Yes, I would like to repent"

Parvo says "How would you like your repentance", then offers a choice between all six stats and the player simply picks which stat for his repentance, this stat reduction is unchangeable.


I think this would also allow for not counting the Shroud Autodeath as a death.

What do you think Lepto???

Still have to say that the Title thing would be on my Wish list!!!

krud
10-28-2009, 11:19 AM
if the idea is tp provide options, then I think the -1con tome, and a -1level tome would cover all bases for PD. Each guild could use whatever method they like upon rezzing. It should require minimal coding since neg levels and tomes are already in game. Just add the two items to general vendors for 1cp. No need to recode all characters (even non-pd ones) with a PD flagging mechanic. Plus, it would make transitioning a character from PD to non-PD easier.

Ashiel_Dragmire
10-28-2009, 04:30 PM
Um... forgive my lack of intelligence, I've only been playing for a little while and don't know all the intricacies of the game. Why not create a server where you can "copy and paste" characters (once per character only) to this server. When they die in the PD server, they are dead and cannot be re-added to the server.

Doesn't the testing server (can't remember the name but it sounds similar to Lamia) copy characters for beta testing? If so this is sort of the same concept. If not then I'm sorry for not knowing what I am talking about. Just thought I'd propose an idea.

binnsr
10-28-2009, 04:36 PM
Um... forgive my lack of intelligence, I've only been playing for a little while and don't know all the intricacies of the game. Why not create a server where you can "copy and paste" characters (once per character only) to this server. When they die in the PD server, they are dead and cannot be re-added to the server.

Doesn't the testing server (can't remember the name but it sounds similar to Lamia) copy characters for beta testing? If so this is sort of the same concept. If not then I'm sorry for not knowing what I am talking about. Just thought I'd propose an idea.

There's been interest in both permadeath and friendly-fire servers since before launch (the original one not the one in Sep). Unfortunately, the demographics don't support dedicated hardware for either purpose and the two certainly don't go together without ALOT of trust in your fellow players :)
While I have no interest in playing perma-death at the moment, I would enjoy a friendly-fire server (as long as the griefing issues could be dealt with somehow).

parvo
10-28-2009, 08:20 PM
It seems to me that losing that title would indicate failure in a true permadeath sense, although how about this for a suggestion, put a NPC in the game who you could talk to and willingly lower any one of your Base Stats which could also cost you the use of Feats based of that stat.

ie.

speak with Parvo Fallenstat in the Marketplace

Parvo says "Hello are you in need of repentance", player selects "Yes, I would like to repent"

Parvo says "How would you like your repentance", then offers a choice between all six stats and the player simply picks which stat for his repentance, this stat reduction is unchangeable.


I think this would also allow for not counting the Shroud Autodeath as a death.

What do you think Lepto???

Still have to say that the Title thing would be on my Wish list!!!


Let me fix that dialogue for you:

Player "Hey parvo, I died."
parvo "So. You're a putz. Most dorfs are."
Player "But my PD guild rules say I have to talk to you...and...I'm a halfling..."
parvo "You're guild rules suck."
Player "Um...you made the rules parvo."
parvo "Oh sure... Blame ole parvo for everything."
Player "What do you want me to do?"
parvo "Delete. Go back to Korthos. They need your expertise. Haven't you heard? There's some kind of giant white Kobold with wings attacking people and stuff?"
Player "Man, that's harsh. Can't I just pretend I didn't die? By the way, that's a Dragon I think..."
parvo "Sure. That's called "normal" play. Leave your permadeath guild and do that instead. Dragon? I should read the stories more often..."
Player "But I like permadeath play."
parvo "Really? There's a dragon in Korthos?"
Player "Yea. I like the tension that failure could mean rerolling or the loss of a guildy. Makes me feel heroic. I like doing level-appropriate content instead of farming easy XP."
parvo "You're level 10 and you died zerging Butcher's Path while "cleaning up favor"..."
Player "But I really really like permadeath. I promise"
parvo "OK, here ya go...Just pretend like you rerolled. And pretend if you or one of your guildies dies, you might reroll."
Player "What about the tension and heroics and stuff?"
parvo "Dude. Pretend there's tension"
Player "...and the hero thing?"
parvo "You guessed it. Pretend that too"
Player "Thanks parvo! You rock!"
parvo "Stay hard dorf"
After the dialogue, parvo takes out his extra super magic de-statifier/PDtagifier and applies -1 con to the player and a visible tag that says "I'm Number One*!!! *Note; Any and all players can be number one."

kafrielveddicus
10-29-2009, 12:11 PM
Let me fix that dialogue for you:

Player "Hey parvo, I died."
parvo "So. You're a putz. Most dorfs are."
Player "But my PD guild rules say I have to talk to you...and...I'm a halfling..."
parvo "You're guild rules suck."
Player "Um...you made the rules parvo."
parvo "Oh sure... Blame ole parvo for everything."
Player "What do you want me to do?"
parvo "Delete. Go back to Korthos. They need your expertise. Haven't you heard? There's some kind of giant white Kobold with wings attacking people and stuff?"
Player "Man, that's harsh. Can't I just pretend I didn't die? By the way, that's a Dragon I think..."
parvo "Sure. That's called "normal" play. Leave your permadeath guild and do that instead. Dragon? I should read the stories more often..."
Player "But I like permadeath play."
parvo "Really? There's a dragon in Korthos?"
Player "Yea. I like the tension that failure could mean rerolling or the loss of a guildy. Makes me feel heroic. I like doing level-appropriate content instead of farming easy XP."
parvo "You're level 10 and you died zerging Butcher's Path while "cleaning up favor"..."
Player "But I really really like permadeath. I promise"
parvo "OK, here ya go...Just pretend like you rerolled. And pretend if you or one of your guildies dies, you might reroll."
Player "What about the tension and heroics and stuff?"
parvo "Dude. Pretend there's tension"
Player "...and the hero thing?"
parvo "You guessed it. Pretend that too"
Player "Thanks parvo! You rock!"
parvo "Stay hard dorf"
After the dialogue, parvo takes out his extra super magic de-statifier/PDtagifier and applies -1 con to the player and a visible tag that says "I'm Number One*!!! *Note; Any and all players can be number one."

I doubt anyone will want to go thru that long of a conversation each time they have to debuff, I thought keeping it short and simple would cover it!!!

toughguyjoe
10-29-2009, 06:37 PM
I think reincarnate could be a very interesting option for Permadeath guilds, and I sincerely suggest all permadeath guild leaders and officers go abck and scan this entire thread. Its got alot of good ideas, good points, and enoug info that i think most peramdeath guilds could make a happy and agreed upon decision as far as what when and how to use this new feature.

kafrielveddicus
11-02-2009, 11:44 AM
You are correct, that is the "Undying" title.
And there are at least three Tiers of this.

They have certain Milestone levels and if you reach
these levels without dying once, you get a special title.

Pretty cool if you ask me... ;)

Hey Bekki,

Could you make a suggestion of what levels you think they should do this in DDO and what you think would be cool titles, currently at 7th level we use the Title of "Untouchable" in our permadeath guild and we also give a guild reward of a muckbane if you dont already posses one.

As far as the CON thing goes one of the previous posts here mentions that in pen and paper you were limited to a number of rezzes equal to your base CON, that is the current ruling we use and is true to pen and paper, but we allow for certain types of deaths (PVP, BUG Deaths, City Deaths due to events, plus certain quest mechanic deaths), although I think lowering your CON would be a nice option, I believe it should be an option due to these sort of things, having someone to talk to that lowers your CON is a perfect and easily programmed solution.

In some guilds that play permadeath there have been arguments that all builds should have an equal amount of deaths allowed and it should not be based off CON, but these arguments usually come from those that like to play caster types, real pen and paper punished these types for their low CON on purpose, their body is weak and can only go thru the tough rigor of ressurection a limited number of times.

Stay Safe and Happy Hunting!!!

toughguyjoe
11-02-2009, 08:56 PM
While I enjoy the addition of titles into a permadeath setting, I think guilds shoudl probably simply keep these to themselves. Turbine would have a long way to go in my eyes before it could put some thought into this.

Would it be better to let guilds give players titles, much like they are testing now, the ability to change the rank names in guilds?

Or would it be better if they made a set of titles(ala world of warcrft) and set specific goals in game to achieve them?

All I know is i don't want titles that sound cool but are too easy to get. It wouldn't make me very excited to see a player with a title like "Undying" meaning he has never died if hes also never taken a chance.

I think i like the idea of it being an in guild thing best. If guild leaders could bestow titles i think that would work out quite well.

kafrielveddicus
11-03-2009, 08:15 AM
While I enjoy the addition of titles into a permadeath setting, I think guilds shoudl probably simply keep these to themselves. Turbine would have a long way to go in my eyes before it could put some thought into this.

Would it be better to let guilds give players titles, much like they are testing now, the ability to change the rank names in guilds?

Or would it be better if they made a set of titles(ala world of warcrft) and set specific goals in game to achieve them?

All I know is i don't want titles that sound cool but are too easy to get. It wouldn't make me very excited to see a player with a title like "Undying" meaning he has never died if hes also never taken a chance.

I think i like the idea of it being an in guild thing best. If guild leaders could bestow titles i think that would work out quite well.

Yeah, guildies handing out specific titles is a cool idea, it is too bad the way they have implemented it right now is not working, hope they fix it soon.

Although I am still happy with a title that the whole community could recognize, there are many people that have communicated with me on my server and have read the bio on my toons and were impressed with my accomplishments, it is a good feeling to have poeple say nice things to you!!!

For those that do end game content, they should have a badge button inside peoples bio where you can see what raids they have run and what favor accomplishments they have recieved!!!

It kind of gives people a way to look at others and go "Wow impressive"!!!

Ghaldar
11-03-2009, 11:25 AM
If your local to boston. (http://www.cytiva.com/turbin/ext/DetailTurbine.asp?turbin1853)

Dreamy. Too bad I live far away.

kafrielveddicus
11-06-2009, 03:50 PM
Dreamy. Too bad I live far away.

Why, What's happening in Boston!!!!

Duncani_Daho
05-21-2010, 01:24 AM
Great idea. I don't know how easy it would be to implement, but it sounds like the easiest option for creating a permadeath-type style of play that is built into the system.

Click on the option when your character is created, and then there's no going back...

No one in The Core has been raised more than twice, and in our static group no one has been raised more than 5 times and we have enough xp to be 18th level. So the base Con of 14 or so would provide PLENTY of chances to explore Stormreach in permadeath mode.

Love it. Git 'er done Devvies. Pretty please :)