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quintuss
10-14-2009, 08:45 AM
I haven't played the new epic stuff yet, but reading about it really makes me wonder how clerics are supposed to support groups in quests like those?

The only capped char i have is a cleric and i don't get to play the amrath quests a lot as it is now since i just can't afford the amount of pots needed.
Good guild groups may be able to play quests like Genesis Point with reasonable amounts of ressources.. pugs are not.
For every pug run of Genesis Point i needed 10+ major sp pots to keep the group alive.
Since i refuse to insert my paycheck into the ddo store every month, i need to run a lot of explorers and lower level quests to be able to run amrath once in a while. That just sucks!

If i read how hard those epic desert quests are, how long fights take and how much damage the mobs are doing, how is a cleric supposed to keep up?!?!?

Junts
10-14-2009, 08:46 AM
If you're using pots in genesis point, its time to re-assess the people you group with and your playstyle pretty drastically.

ArkoHighStar
10-14-2009, 08:47 AM
The devs are making some changes based on the initial feedback, decreasing mob hit points and stats making spells more effective. We will see once this update is in. But in its current form its a melee beatdown.

Tyrande
10-14-2009, 08:50 AM
I haven't played the new epic stuff yet, but reading about it really makes me wonder how clerics are supposed to support groups in quests like those?

The only capped char i have is a cleric and i don't get to play the amrath quests a lot as it is now since i just can't afford the amount of pots needed.
Good guild groups may be able to play quests like Genesis Point with reasonable amounts of ressources.. pugs are not.
For every pug run of Genesis Point i needed 10+ major sp pots to keep the group alive.
Since i refuse to insert my paycheck into the ddo store every month, i need to run a lot of explorers and lower level quests to be able to run amrath once in a while. That just sucks!

If i read how hard those epic desert quests are, how long fights take and how much damage the mobs are doing, how is a cleric supposed to keep up?!?!?

One reason I pretty much shelved my cleric. She is still not doing Amrath quests and will never do epic quests unless I get 2 major mana pots from each person that I am healing prior for PUG groups.

Dylos_Moon
10-14-2009, 08:58 AM
One reason I pretty much shelved my cleric. She is still not doing Amrath quests and will never do epic quests unless I get 2 major mana pots from each person that I am healing prior for PUG groups.

I doubt 5 major mana pots will make a dent on the healing required in epic content, however keep in mind, when doing epic content, you are already capped, so here is how I foresee clerics doing epic content.

Recall or shrine after nearly every battle.

rimble
10-14-2009, 08:59 AM
Epic Clerics will deal with Epic Quests just fine. The rest shouldn't be there.

Just like Elite Clerics deal with Elite Quests just fine now.

Elsbet
10-14-2009, 09:10 AM
I rarely use mana pots in the Amrath quests or in ToD. I ran my first one without needing a single pot at all.

FluffyCalico
10-14-2009, 09:16 AM
If you're using pots in genesis point, its time to re-assess the people you group with and your playstyle pretty drastically.

Thats mean, it's true but mean :p

TFPAQ
10-14-2009, 09:30 AM
If you're using pots in genesis point, its time to re-assess the people you group with and your playstyle pretty drastically.

Guess I have to ride the bus with Junts on this one. While I think my cleric build is pretty solid (I'm not going into stats, etc), I've taken a number of levels for battle clericing (i.e. melee proficiency) which means that I don't have quite the sp of a pure build, yet I don't have a problem getting through without pots.

I have a Cleric17/Pally1/Fighter2 on lammie that I haven't had a chance to run epics on yet, but I'll get a look this weekend and drop in a post.

Belwaar
10-14-2009, 09:43 AM
I rarely use mana pots in the Amrath quests or in ToD. I ran my first one without needing a single pot at all.

But how many scolls did you use? :p

sirgog
10-14-2009, 09:45 AM
I haven't played the new epic stuff yet, but reading about it really makes me wonder how clerics are supposed to support groups in quests like those?

The only capped char i have is a cleric and i don't get to play the amrath quests a lot as it is now since i just can't afford the amount of pots needed.
Good guild groups may be able to play quests like Genesis Point with reasonable amounts of ressources.. pugs are not.
For every pug run of Genesis Point i needed 10+ major sp pots to keep the group alive.
Since i refuse to insert my paycheck into the ddo store every month, i need to run a lot of explorers and lower level quests to be able to run amrath once in a while. That just sucks!

If i read how hard those epic desert quests are, how long fights take and how much damage the mobs are doing, how is a cleric supposed to keep up?!?!?

The point at which I stopped using mana pots in Normal/Hard Amrath quests was the point at which I learned to use Mass Heal.

60 SP (Quickened), and 3 seconds later the whole party is at full or close to it.


That said, Elite Amrath content I don't like single-cleric groups in. Take two clerics (one of whom can melee) - the melee specced cleric plays a melee role until the main healer is at 10% SP, then the main healer resorts to only scrolls while the melee cleric heals, saving those last few SP for wipe prevention.

That's a far better way to cope with elite Amrath. Or better yet, bring three Clerics - one of whom casts pretty much nothing but Bladebarrier while the other two take turns healing and contributing as much or as little as they can in melee.

FluffyCalico
10-14-2009, 09:59 AM
But how many scolls did you use? :p

I have done ToD on hard more than once with my cleric. The most I ever needed to use was 1 pot and 7 scolls.

DragavonBeta
10-14-2009, 10:03 AM
If you're using pots in genesis point, its time to re-assess the people you group with and your playstyle pretty drastically.

I have done GP elite with no cleric in group. We didnt find it particularly difficult.

Junts
10-14-2009, 10:04 AM
I have done GP elite with no cleric in group. We didnt find it particularly difficult.

Me, too. That was my point ... people shouldn't regularly be drinking mana pots outside of tower of despair and ascension chamber.

Missing_Minds
10-14-2009, 10:08 AM
Epic is there for those that want to run it. No one forces you to run it. Remember that. It is YOUR choice to attempt it.

Angelus_dead
10-14-2009, 10:08 AM
I haven't played the new epic stuff yet, but reading about it really makes me wonder how clerics are supposed to support groups in quests like those?
The developers have announced that the epic quests are currently too stupid, and will be fixed to be less stupid.


For every pug run of Genesis Point i needed 10+ major sp pots to keep the group alive.
1. The 4 possible endings aren't equal difficulty; one is a lot harder. Stay with the east room to be safe.
2. Kill Queen Laliat for Torc of Rayium-de and you'll never need pots again!

Shade
10-14-2009, 10:10 AM
The only capped char i have is a cleric and i don't get to play the amrath quests a lot as it is now since i just can't afford the amount of pots needed.
Good guild groups may be able to play quests like Genesis Point with reasonable amounts of ressources.. pugs are not.
For every pug run of Genesis Point i needed 10+ major sp pots to keep the group alive.
Since i refuse to insert my paycheck into the ddo store every month, i need to run a lot of explorers and lower level quests to be able to run amrath once in a while. That just sucks!


Khyber pugs are really that bad?

Wow..

I pug genesis all the time, even on elite.. And have never had a cleric need to use a single mana pot. Infact the majority of the runs we skipped shrines because we never needed them! On elite a few scrolls are generally needed, never mana pots.. Scroll healing is plenty effective. I provide them to clerics very often when I pug hard content.. Fast normal runs I expect none to be used.

Pretty sure I have grouped with you before in pugs too and had no problems. Maybe not the shavarath stuff? If you see an lfm up from me with it, join up and you can be sure you'll end the quest with more resources then you started it.

Given the ultra high value of the loot dropping in epic quests, and the upcoming drastic reduction to monster hp on epic.. I don't think scroll cost will become an issue for clerics on epic mode either. I can see a good 300+ scrolls being used on chains of flame giving the limited shrines in there (2), but the cost of that is much less GP then what'd a party would get from a single run of the quest anyways for selling the junk, so its not an issue as long as people chip in.

For wiz king, the things got 4 shrines, plus one right outside that will reset, so it really shouldn't be a big issue.

What will become important is having people displaced, and keeping your scroll mastery maxxed out to keep the tank up without using allot of SP, and having the other melee's play it smart and flank. Like always, strong teamwork will keep resource costs down.

Elsbet
10-14-2009, 10:10 AM
But how many scolls did you use? :p

Ten, maybe twelve...

I'll be honest and say that much of that was running with a group of VERY good players, but it really isn't that hard to do.

Play smarter, not harder.

Memnir
10-14-2009, 10:11 AM
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http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/EnPsyane/ddostore-1.jpg
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redraider
10-14-2009, 10:21 AM
So much depends on your group. When I run with my Southern Tenant Farmers Union brothers, we rarely need scrolls or pots in the Amarath quests except the raid. We are well equipped, know what we are doing, and simply blast through everything. I have played all sides in Amarath, Cleric, Melee, Caster, Support. The clerics simply don't have significant issues with well equipped, knowledgable groups.

My same cleric, in a pug, can be a different story. Some pugs, have every bit as well equipped and knowledgable players and use very little resources. Some pugs, well... they are a bit more challenging!

I am not one to bail on a group, so I tough it out and have used resouces simply to fail at the end anyway. My Cleric is a 16/2 ClerMonk, so he is not max SP anyway and a group with low DPS combined with low AC can get resource taxing. In many cases, I find it easier in Bastion or Sins to simply take the lead and BB everything. It's usually less resource intensive to kill it myself...

To the OP I would say: In Amarath quests, try to do either Weapons Shipment or the other easy one (name escapes me right now) with a group before heading to the big quests. Gauge the group then decide if you can afford to hit the big quests.

Visty
10-14-2009, 10:26 AM
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http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/EnPsyane/ddostore-1.jpg
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memnir, you suck....+1 virtual rep for you, cause i have to spread it first

Angelus_dead
10-14-2009, 10:54 AM
Epic is there for those that want to run it. No one forces you to run it. Remember that. It is YOUR choice to attempt it.
That is hilariously inadequate as a justification for the epic mode design. Seriously, why did you decide to type that in?

Yeah, you're not forced to play this game... but the developers supposedly have a financial incentive to get people to play it!

Kaldaka
10-14-2009, 11:36 AM
That is hilariously inadequate as a justification ...

Ouch :D +1 rep for you ...

woundweaver
10-14-2009, 11:55 AM
I haven't played the new epic stuff yet, but reading about it really makes me wonder how clerics are supposed to support groups in quests like those?

The only capped char i have is a cleric and i don't get to play the amrath quests a lot as it is now since i just can't afford the amount of pots needed.
Good guild groups may be able to play quests like Genesis Point with reasonable amounts of ressources.. pugs are not.
For every pug run of Genesis Point i needed 10+ major sp pots to keep the group alive.
Since i refuse to insert my paycheck into the ddo store every month, i need to run a lot of explorers and lower level quests to be able to run amrath once in a while. That just sucks!

If i read how hard those epic desert quests are, how long fights take and how much damage the mobs are doing, how is a cleric supposed to keep up?!?!?

ummm, roll a fvs with alot of mental toughness, and charisma as high as you can go...

moops
10-14-2009, 12:00 PM
I run 3 clerics in Amrath Quests on Elite, including a battle Cleric with 1400 sp--And aside from the beginning when I was testing spells, I rarely use pots--I use 10-50 Scrolls depending on quest and group make up. ToD sometimes I am only cleric and still pretty much just use scrolls and a pot here and there--but we communicate extremely well, and also have others who can use scrolls in group.

I would examine your groups and strategy. . .

I consider Genesis the easiest one of the flagging quests as the spawning of mobs are far easier to control--In Sins and Bastion one wrong step and you can get a ton of porting mobs on top of you--but use of an intimadater, solid fog ( even if on clickies) and Blur and Displacement--as well as moving a bit slower can work wonders--also Comet Fall knocks down some mobs quite nicely--but you need to be prepared to heal yourself for the ones it didn't knock down.

I really hope that they don't dumb down Epic Mode too much, I mean It would be nice if I could use some spells--but I do really want a challenge that we can strategize around.

Thrudh
10-14-2009, 12:06 PM
FYI - I did Sins last night in a PUG... two of the people had never done it before...

We had a 20th level spellsinger bard who did an amazing job with Dancing Sphere and Charm Monster...

Smoothest run I've been on so far.... The bard and FvS did have to use a pot each to get us to the first shrine (we didn't want to ddoor back to shrine by the entrance because of the all extra fighting that would entail)

LexxCoool
10-14-2009, 12:17 PM
I have done ToD on hard more than once with my cleric. The most I ever needed to use was 1 pot and 7 scolls.

Now tell him how you did that.

Tuney
10-14-2009, 12:33 PM
Yeah I've done genesis point on my bard and I don't find it particarly hard... but then again i'm a Virt bard and I'm very crazy in using my Enthralment as much as possable hehe. Plus I love sneaking in all the quests and using enthrallment makes so much more fun when they are all knocked out hehe.

Thriand
10-14-2009, 12:38 PM
I think the most simple and blunt answer I can give is that a cleric who has to spend pots consistently on a genesis point run of any difficulty will have to cope with epic quests simply by not doing them or breaking out the credit card. Epic is supposed to be a long need challenge for players, and some players simply aren't up to that challenge.

paul1devries
10-14-2009, 12:49 PM
Well i would love to run with some of these "uber" clerics or uber groups i guess.

Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.

I ran it with a VERY VERY good group (now i recognize that was very early in the learning cycle) and still needed to chug a bunch of pots - we had 1 favorerd soul, myself and a bard

How many healers did you have when you didn't need to chug or use scrolls? There is no way that the main tank could not have needed extensive healing during the last fight on hard - did the other healer/healers use any?

I personally love being in a raid where the OTHER cleric is not using any scrolls or pots and sits there twiddling his thumbs with no mana and relies on others to not fail.

I have 2340 spell points on my cleric. Did you not have empower on or maximize or empower healing or didnt extend any buffs etc etc ?

I am very curious to know i guess because i clearly need some healing lessons.

For example, do you rotate through mass heal if needed to reduce spell point usage? Do you have a 90+ ac character tank? Do you have a 600 hitpoint tank and you know exactly how long he can go down before a well timed heal?

These are all things that make a huge difference versus most groups out there that don't have a large guild they always run with.

woundweaver
10-14-2009, 01:06 PM
yeah, i dont often run out of mana, but sometimes you just gotta in order to do your role in things. i wont bash anyone for using pots...ive used them for 2 years. but there is a line between need, and wasteful and unnecessary, and i never cross it. i use scrolls timed in with my masses. saves sp's. its easier to get plat for scrolls than to find pots, or charge your credit card for 10 pots just to complete one quest. if i drink a pot, the group better be worth the expenditure, or ill scroll heal when i run out of mana. and you can tell the type of group pretty early into a quest to know whether to waste the resources.

Junts
10-14-2009, 01:09 PM
Well i would love to run with some of these "uber" clerics or uber groups i guess.

Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.

I ran it with a VERY VERY good group (now i recognize that was very early in the learning cycle) and still needed to chug a bunch of pots - we had 1 favorerd soul, myself and a bard

How many healers did you have when you didn't need to chug or use scrolls? There is no way that the main tank could not have needed extensive healing during the last fight on hard - did the other healer/healers use any?

I personally love being in a raid where the OTHER cleric is not using any scrolls or pots and sits there twiddling his thumbs with no mana and relies on others to not fail.

I have 2340 spell points on my cleric. Did you not have empower on or maximize or empower healing or didnt extend any buffs etc etc ?

I am very curious to know i guess because i clearly need some healing lessons.

For example, do you rotate through mass heal if needed to reduce spell point usage? Do you have a 90+ ac character tank? Do you have a 600 hitpoint tank and you know exactly how long he can go down before a well timed heal?

These are all things that make a huge difference versus most groups out there that don't have a large guild they always run with.

We've done plenty of tods on hard without pot use, though I concur scrolls are used and should be expected .. only about 40-60 per user, though, nothing out of line with what you'd use for a vod or the like.

Njhuy
10-14-2009, 01:22 PM
Well i would love to run with some of these "uber" clerics or uber groups i guess.

Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.
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Actually I ran it in Shade's group on hard a few days ago and I didnt use a single pot and what's more, I had 75% of my mana bar left after part2, and again after part 3.

I used probably 30-40 scrolls, mostly in part 3 keeping Axer up (his full healing amplification and my scroll mastery combine to be like 240 HP heals)

It was incredibly smooth and very easy from my level 20 cleric's point of view.

The difference between a good group and a not so good group is staggering at high levels. A pug may be completely incapable of completing a dungeon that a good group blows through easily.



Genesis has plenty of shrines that you can return to over and over. How on earth is your cleric wasting pots in there? You have unlimited mana because of the shrine count.

I would strongly suggesting finding one of the good guilds to join. It sounds like you still have some learning to do about the game.

Hendrik
10-14-2009, 01:56 PM
I think the most simple and blunt answer I can give is that a cleric who has to spend pots consistently on a genesis point run of any difficulty will have to cope with epic quests simply by not doing them or breaking out the credit card. Epic is supposed to be a long need challenge for players, and some players simply aren't up to that challenge.

Ah, BINGO!

Epic is for the 'power-gamer'. Those that have everything and done everything. Epic is the place for those players to still find a challenge.

Epic will be an insane resource intensive Quest. It will take the best players to complete with the best weapons and skills. This is not for the casual gamer, sorry, as casuals have no place in Epic, at least not a for a long time to come.

I look forward to Epic and the challenge it brings. I look forward to getting my rear handed to me over and over as I play Epic settings.

And as for CLR's coping with Epic, and as CLR, it will hurt. It will hurt a ton. But one good thing that will come out of this, more players will learn to be more self sufficient and less likely to rely on someone else to heal them all the time. Of course, do not ever expect a CLR to join a PUG for Epic. I honestly think Epic will stay within or between Guilds. I know I will NEVER join an Epic PUG.

Angelus_dead
10-14-2009, 02:17 PM
Epic will be an insane resource intensive Quest. It will take the best players to complete with the best weapons and skills. This is not for the casual gamer, sorry, as casuals have no place in Epic, at least not a for a long time to come.
That would be foolish.

It would not contribute to DDO being entertaining or popular. To intentionally exclude the vast majority of players from enjoying that content would be a mistake- especially since most of the players who can do it still won't have fun.


But one good thing that will come out of this, more players will learn to be more self sufficient and less likely to rely on someone else to heal them all the time.
That is exactly backwards, and if you read Shade's predictions of how he would play epic quests you'll see the opposite would occur. Melee characters would give up completely at being able to self heal that huge damage in any way, and instead they'd expect clerics to follow them around clicking through a page full of Heal scrolls 10 per minute.

paul1devries
10-14-2009, 02:25 PM
Actually I ran it in Shade's group on hard a few days ago and I didnt use a single pot and what's more, I had 75% of my mana bar left after part2, and again after part 3.

I used probably 30-40 scrolls, mostly in part 3 keeping Axer up (his full healing amplification and my scroll mastery combine to be like 240 HP heals)

It was incredibly smooth and very easy from my level 20 cleric's point of view.

The difference between a good group and a not so good group is staggering at high levels. A pug may be completely incapable of completing a dungeon that a good group blows through easily.



Genesis has plenty of shrines that you can return to over and over. How on earth is your cleric wasting pots in there? You have unlimited mana because of the shrine count.

I would strongly suggesting finding one of the good guilds to join. It sounds like you still have some learning to do about the game.

Make sure you refer to the right quote - i never said i needed pots in Genesis - i was commenting on the Tower which you quoted from and the lack of need to use pots OR scrolls.

My comments on Tower were actually with the same group that you referred to running with but a number of weeks back and on first hard completion for them. Maybe it could totally be levels in group at the time and experience running it and enhancements on tank.....

At any rate...i personally use whatever pots or scrolls are needed to get the job done. I would hate to wipe because i was a scrooge....

Superspeed_Hi5
10-14-2009, 02:26 PM
Its probably easier to be a CL in an epic quest than an Arcane Caster. From what I understand most of the mobs are immune/resistant to elemental damage with ridculous HP and are immune to PK, FoD, as well as debuffs. Which pretty much makes the Wiz/Sorc buff machines.

Would you like some Haste with your fries?

Jonny_D
10-14-2009, 02:30 PM
I think the most simple and blunt answer I can give is that a cleric who has to spend pots consistently on a genesis point run of any difficulty will have to cope with epic quests simply by not doing them or breaking out the credit card. Epic is supposed to be a long need challenge for players, and some players simply aren't up to that challenge.

yup, and thats not necessarily meaning the cleric is a bad player. Alot of the endgame content is primarily directed at cohesive team play. Players with out certain social connections in game are stuck with who ever joins their lfms and are limited by who's lfm's they are able to join, this often leads to subpar groups, or even groups of skilled players who cant easily adapt to others playstyles.
Epic quests are designed to be an extreme challenge to the best teams and players in the game. I think Turbine wants us to use tons of resources running these quests damaging our unbound gear and spending lots of plat repairing, buying scrolls, and even buying shrines and pots from the turbine store. I think of the resources spent in the year trying to beat the Titan before they changed it. It turns out it was beatable (1 confirmed and another claimed victory) even without the changes made. It was fun trying to succeed, pushing the limits and not having the quest beaten on elite 5.5 days after release.

Hendrik
10-14-2009, 02:38 PM
That would be foolish.

It would not contribute to DDO being entertaining or popular. To intentionally exclude the vast majority of players from enjoying that content would be a mistake- especially since most of the players who can do it still won't have fun.


That is exactly backwards, and if you read Shade's predictions of how he would play epic quests you'll see the opposite would occur. Melee characters would give up completely at being able to self heal that huge damage in any way, and instead they'd expect clerics to follow them around clicking through a page full of Heal scrolls 10 per minute.

Want to make DDO more 'popular'? Well, more PvP for the kids then.

Ok, sure, make it so a once/twice a week casual can do Epic. That just means the power-gamers will have a much easier time slamming through it. More Epic loot faster! YEA! More of a power-gap, YEA! More Epic and faster. Great idea! While that casual finally get his first Epic loot, PG'ers already have several.

There is nothing wrong with having content designed for the hardcore players. If anything it is healthy for the game to have difficult challenges to strive to overcome. But not so difficult it cannot be overcome in a timely fashion - as demonstrated by feedback and MadFloyd.

So, they should not make any solo dungeons then because it would exclude a vast majority of the players? Gotcha.

All playstlyes have a place in DDO. Furthermore, those playstyles need to be reflected in the content we are given. You cannot cater to one end of the spectrum without catering to the other at some point. Thing's will grow stale. Epic hopes to bring some new life and challenges to the upper-end of DDO players.

Jonny_D
10-14-2009, 02:46 PM
Want to make DDO more 'popular'? Well, more PvP for the kids then.

Ok, sure, make it so a once/twice a week casual can do Epic. That just means the power-gamers will have a much easier time slamming through it. More Epic loot faster! YEA! More of a power-gap, YEA! More Epic and faster. Great idea! While that casual finally get his first Epic loot, PG'ers already have several.

There is nothing wrong with having content designed for the hardcore players. If anything it is healthy for the game to have difficult challenges to strive to overcome. But not so difficult it cannot be overcome in a timely fashion - as demonstrated by feedback and MadFloyd.

So, they should not make any solo dungeons then because it would exclude a vast majority of the players? Gotcha.

All playstlyes have a place in DDO. Furthermore, those playstyles need to be reflected in the content we are given. You cannot cater to one end of the spectrum without catering to the other at some point. Thing's will grow stale. Epic hopes to bring some new life and challenges to the upper-end of DDO players.

very well said. rep'd

quintuss
10-14-2009, 04:56 PM
Whow, quite a lot of posts in reply of my original post.

At first i think i have to correct myself concerning the quest Genesis Point.
I have run all quests in Amrath xcept the raid so far. Genesis Point was just the first name that came to my mind when i wrote the post.

@Junts: I would like to change the people i run those quests with but since i'm pugging them, i can't.

Ya, i have been in some very bad pugs. One with a squishy Bard leading the charge and dying several times + a few other semi bad players.
People being told don't go through the center of the room, coz there's a tra... doh.. plz raise him and other bad stuff.

I got 402hp / 2178sp on my cleric + ss ring & the korthos neckie. I just activate quicken, when i realize i can't keep people alive otherwise. The only meta i always have active is empower healing. I carry a pot VI mace in my main hand and have all the ap healing enhancements xcept the ones for crits when healing.
I don't think im an exceptionally bad cleric. (solo healed vod pugs (@lvl16) and other stuff without problems)
There may be better clerics (there always are ;) ) but i think after 2 1/2 years+ of clericing (first on devourer and now Khyber) i can say i know what i'm doing.
I still think that in amrath pugs (except in weapons shipment) you just have to use too many pots as a cleric and the epic stuff will simply be out of reach for the average pug.

Jonny_D
10-14-2009, 06:38 PM
I still think that in amrath pugs (except in weapons shipment) you just have to use too many pots as a cleric and the epic stuff will simply be out of reach for the average pug.
and there you have it. epic is beyond the reach of average. thats where it should be

Angelus_dead
10-14-2009, 06:50 PM
There is nothing wrong with having content designed for the hardcore players.
Of course not, but that isn't all that the "epic" mode does.

It is taking the new path of major character progression and making it insanely expensive and tedious.


So, they should not make any solo dungeons then because it would exclude a vast majority of the players? Gotcha.
That has no resemblance to my statements. For one thing, solo dungeons would not actually exclude anyone, because all players are capable of doing them. But more importantly, solo dungeons are not the new path of major character progression.

You have repeatedly come to illogical conclusions by conflating two separate design possibilities and treating them as equivalent:
1. Adding some new mode which is tediously hard, just in case some players enjoy that kind of thing.
2. Adding some new mode which is tediously hard, and having it be the only way that some old-favorite quests can be boosted to above level 14 rewards, and also creating a whole new loot reward system for it, including items with different augment slots on them in multiple craftable colors and other options.

As already explained, the problem is not the availability of quest modes that gives the monsters stupidly excessive abilities. What makes it a problem is that there is no choice provided to set these quests to a "normal" level 20 to 24 difficulty, where your characters can actually function in approximately the way they were advertised to do.

Junts
10-14-2009, 07:10 PM
Whow, quite a lot of posts in reply of my original post.

At first i think i have to correct myself concerning the quest Genesis Point.
I have run all quests in Amrath xcept the raid so far. Genesis Point was just the first name that came to my mind when i wrote the post.

@Junts: I would like to change the people i run those quests with but since i'm pugging them, i can't.

Ya, i have been in some very bad pugs. One with a squishy Bard leading the charge and dying several times + a few other semi bad players.
People being told don't go through the center of the room, coz there's a tra... doh.. plz raise him and other bad stuff.

I got 402hp / 2178sp on my cleric + ss ring & the korthos neckie. I just activate quicken, when i realize i can't keep people alive otherwise. The only meta i always have active is empower healing. I carry a pot VI mace in my main hand and have all the ap healing enhancements xcept the ones for crits when healing.
I don't think im an exceptionally bad cleric. (solo healed vod pugs (@lvl16) and other stuff without problems)
There may be better clerics (there always are ;) ) but i think after 2 1/2 years+ of clericing (first on devourer and now Khyber) i can say i know what i'm doing.
I still think that in amrath pugs (except in weapons shipment) you just have to use too many pots as a cleric and the epic stuff will simply be out of reach for the average pug.

personally I'm gonna guess that you would be better off by using maximize to heal, as empower healing sized mass heals are inadequate for the damage output of amrath quests with 6 people.

moops
10-14-2009, 07:32 PM
Well i would love to run with some of these "uber" clerics or uber groups i guess.

Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.

I ran it with a VERY VERY good group (now i recognize that was very early in the learning cycle) and still needed to chug a bunch of pots - we had 1 favorerd soul, myself and a bard

How many healers did you have when you didn't need to chug or use scrolls? There is no way that the main tank could not have needed extensive healing during the last fight on hard - did the other healer/healers use any?

I personally love being in a raid where the OTHER cleric is not using any scrolls or pots and sits there twiddling his thumbs with no mana and relies on others to not fail.

I have 2340 spell points on my cleric. Did you not have empower on or maximize or empower healing or didnt extend any buffs etc etc ?

I am very curious to know i guess because i clearly need some healing lessons.

For example, do you rotate through mass heal if needed to reduce spell point usage? Do you have a 90+ ac character tank? Do you have a 600 hitpoint tank and you know exactly how long he can go down before a well timed heal?

These are all things that make a huge difference versus most groups out there that don't have a large guild they always run with.

I did it on Hard last night, I was the group cleric with my 1400 SP cleric, I used one pot and 40 scrolls--I prob did not have to use the pot but I wanted to be safe. The Main tank healer did not use a pot (unless he snuck it in--when he got low on SP I still had 1100 SP left and wanted to switch, but he did not want to switch as he knew that I have a high AC and liek to melee on that cleric) he probably used 80- 100 scrolls, as that is what I usuallly use on Hard when I heal the main tank. We used a Stalwart Defender Tank with 600+ HP, around 80ish AC and he pretty much only takes damage from DOTS and Distengrate.

I just use Empower Healing on all my Clerics. I do NOT use the Mass heal spell, and in ToD rarely have to throw any of the other mass heals because of how we do it. I am a huge fan of sleet storm--and use this in most raids I run.

We also had a Bard that used scrolls for healing.

It all comes down to what kind of strategy you are using, and how self sufficient the other people in your group are--Your Buffing? Our Rangers and Palis do the buffing b4 shrining to go into the 3rd part, etc. The people who group with us knwo to back off so that they can be healed with scrolls or top off themselves.

If you do use more supplies as a cleric, it is not your fault, it's usually the group is not working well together, or people are not listening to the leader.

Edited to ADD: I also had the benefit of leading this raid, and the 2 pugs we brought along knew my policy full well of part 3--if your dumb enough to die and not the main tank--you stay dead.

Sharzade
10-14-2009, 07:50 PM
LOLZ, been reading this thread. :)

Methinks that the top most elite and tactical players won't need goodie (rez/mneumonic) bailouts from the DDO store/AH. Shopping for a win just doesn't seem all that hot.

Aye, I'm being wicked. I couldn't stop myself. :D

Sharz :p
(DDO Store FTW)

transtemporal
10-14-2009, 08:02 PM
OP - I've had varied experiences with random pugs in the new content. These are actually random pugs, i.e. not guild runs, not channel runs, not loose-acquaintances-from-good-guild-runs or names-you-recognise-runs but actual randomly put-together groups of non-guilded toons (or unheard of guilds or bad guilds).

A couple have been an absolute pleasure, most have been a bit of a struggle and a few have been disasters. I think I agree with you - I would be very hesitant to run a healer in epic with a random pug too, lol.

Enochroot
10-14-2009, 08:04 PM
Well i would love to run with some of these "uber" clerics or uber groups i guess.

You won't see these same players generally in the sarlona pug scene ...



Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.

Current pug groups, /agreed.



I personally love being in a raid where the OTHER cleric is not using any scrolls or pots and sits there twiddling his thumbs with no mana and relies on others to not fail.


I really only wanted to address this - I personally love being in a raid where the "other" cleric always overheals far too early - such that I will heal a bit later than them a few times - until I figure I'm just wasting sp (as I'm certainly not going to start healing earlier and wasting MORE sp ...) - and I just let them do their thing, if that's what they want to be doing.

Jonny_D
10-14-2009, 09:35 PM
I really only wanted to address this - I personally love being in a raid where the "other" cleric always overheals far too early - such that I will heal a bit later than them a few times - until I figure I'm just wasting sp (as I'm certainly not going to start healing earlier and wasting MORE sp ...) - and I just let them do their thing, if that's what they want to be doing.

qft

sirgog
10-14-2009, 10:21 PM
yup, and thats not necessarily meaning the cleric is a bad player. Alot of the endgame content is primarily directed at cohesive team play. Players with out certain social connections in game are stuck with who ever joins their lfms and are limited by who's lfm's they are able to join, this often leads to subpar groups, or even groups of skilled players who cant easily adapt to others playstyles.
Epic quests are designed to be an extreme challenge to the best teams and players in the game. I think Turbine wants us to use tons of resources running these quests damaging our unbound gear and spending lots of plat repairing, buying scrolls, and even buying shrines and pots from the turbine store. I think of the resources spent in the year trying to beat the Titan before they changed it. It turns out it was beatable (1 confirmed and another claimed victory) even without the changes made. It was fun trying to succeed, pushing the limits and not having the quest beaten on elite 5.5 days after release.

So true on the merits of having *tough* content.

FluffyCalico
10-14-2009, 11:14 PM
Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.

.

3 ToD hard completes on my cleric all 3 pugs I joined. Resources used as follows:
1) 1 pot 7 scrolls
2) 1 pot
3) 0 of anything

Edit: Note they were pugs where I saw some good names involved. So pugish in they were not guild specific

deadkitty
10-15-2009, 02:09 AM
3 ToD hard completes on my cleric all 3 pugs I joined. Resources used as follows:
1) 1 pot 7 scrolls
2) 1 pot
3) 0 of anything

Edit: Note they were pugs where I saw some good names involved. So pugish in they were not guild specific

A Warforge tank with a sorce repairing him makes it mighty easy on the clerics....

As far as my input on this.... I have both a favored soul and a cleric. Both are HP Built and are spec'd for Light/Good dmg. My Cleric has 1700 SP and my FvS 2800 SP. I have solo healed shroud without pots on both characters. I have done TOD w/o pots, Solo healed VOD even. It's all about your group and strategy. Any good cleric is going to drink pots and use his resources as accordingly as he see's fit. Most of my pot drinking comes from my own expense, running ahead and throwing down blade bariers just to kill mobs. But the number one tip i have is Mass Heal and Heal. Use your heals the smart way. Why throw a cure serious and a cure crit to heal mabe 100 points of damage. Let your party members get low and full heal them with 35 SP. Or toss a mass heal and heal them all for 50 SP. Your party members HP doesn't have to be full after each encounter you run into. Try using scrolls to your advantage. I usually plow through 300 heal scrolls in 2 days roughly, but its cheaper than pots. And considering how many resources I spend... my cleric and FvS seem to always have more plat than my other toons for some reason. Plan out tactics, heal smart, use your resources, and create PUGs capable of preforming to par. Ya sometimes it times longer to fill a group with quality players, but it can save you money. Just my 2 cents

quintuss
10-15-2009, 03:50 AM
Why throw a cure serious and a cure crit to heal mabe 100 points of damage. Let your party members get low and full heal them with 35 SP. Or toss a mass heal and heal them all for 50 SP.

Hmm, most of the time when i'm in raids, thats just no option bec of severe lag (shroud).
I just can't rely on the hp bars i see on the screen, so i drop a cure moderate mass regularly just to be sure.
Last shroud i did, all players were at 100% and then BANG! 5 dead in an instant although me and another cleric were spamming mass cures. :/

On a positive note, i did ToD yesterday for the first time. I went in with a pug and i never needed more than 50% of my sp. Maybe i have just played with a lot of bad grps recently, who knows. :)

stilldamom
10-15-2009, 03:53 AM
At first all I did was scout around looking for the Mnem pots. Now, I get wands. Wand of critical/severe heal. You can buy them in House P and they use no mana. Save mana for buffing. These wands are 1250 Pt each, which is pretty steep, but it's cheaper then the Mnem pots. Also, if you are in a decent group, sometimes people from the group will even pitch in a wand or two. In fact, on the raids we went on today, before I even said anything, I was handed 2 full severe heal wands and 4 rez scrolls. I thought that was pretty neat! =D Thanx Shish!

Natashaelle
10-15-2009, 05:06 AM
If anything, Epic difficulty may help some DPS-addict types that having lots of AC (and other anti-squishiness measures) is actually worthwhile ;)

*Shields* are *Good* ; *Vicious* is *Bad* ;) :D

quintuss
10-15-2009, 05:28 AM
At first all I did was scout around looking for the Mnem pots. Now, I get wands. Wand of critical/severe heal. You can buy them in House P and they use no mana. Save mana for buffing. These wands are 1250 Pt each, which is pretty steep, but it's cheaper then the Mnem pots. Also, if you are in a decent group, sometimes people from the group will even pitch in a wand or two. In fact, on the raids we went on today, before I even said anything, I was handed 2 full severe heal wands and 4 rez scrolls. I thought that was pretty neat! =D Thanx Shish!

Wands are the way to go in low and mid lvl quests.
In higher level quests or raids they are not doing enough pts of healing and are just to slow.
Heal scrolls are a good way to save sp there but even they can be to slow at times when more than one or two melees are taking damage.

Pyromaniac
10-15-2009, 06:00 AM
You get someone else to cleric and play a melee?

Jonny_D
10-15-2009, 06:26 AM
Im thinking 400 silverflame favor will be a must for melee... If u have to ask epic probably isnt for you;)

Elsbet
10-15-2009, 06:50 AM
Well i would love to run with some of these "uber" clerics or uber groups i guess.

Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.

I ran it with a VERY VERY good group (now i recognize that was very early in the learning cycle) and still needed to chug a bunch of pots - we had 1 favorerd soul, myself and a bard

How many healers did you have when you didn't need to chug or use scrolls? There is no way that the main tank could not have needed extensive healing during the last fight on hard - did the other healer/healers use any?

I personally love being in a raid where the OTHER cleric is not using any scrolls or pots and sits there twiddling his thumbs with no mana and relies on others to not fail.

I have 2340 spell points on my cleric. Did you not have empower on or maximize or empower healing or didnt extend any buffs etc etc ?

I am very curious to know i guess because i clearly need some healing lessons.

For example, do you rotate through mass heal if needed to reduce spell point usage? Do you have a 90+ ac character tank? Do you have a 600 hitpoint tank and you know exactly how long he can go down before a well timed heal?

These are all things that make a huge difference versus most groups out there that don't have a large guild they always run with.

ToD was on normal, which wasn't mentioned. Perspective is important.

One other cleric. He used no pots. He used no scrolls to my knowledge because I never saw one in his hand. No bard. We did DV each other.

The cleric I took through there only has 2000 sp at the moment.

I never turn off empower healing. Always run quicken in raids except when buffing.

I don't spam mass cures when unnecessary. I refuse to mem mass heal because it is a **** spell. (Has Turbine even fixed the only heals six people thing yet?)

I did not extend buffs (with the exception of recitation and prayer) because no part of the quest lasted more than the time it took to get to the next shrine.

Yes, we did have a couple of high hit point tanks and yes, I know when exactly I need to hit them with a heal to keep them up because I know what my various cure spells and heal spell hit for on average.

Exact ACs I don't know, though a couple of the people in the group were AC builds so I would expect that they do have pretty high ACs. It kinda defeats the point of being an AC build if they don't.

Hendrik
10-15-2009, 07:29 AM
Im thinking 400 silverflame favor will be a must for melee... If u have to ask epic probably isnt for you;)

Many things will be a 'must' IMO.

Those pots WILL be of some help as well as the extended P buffs. Think the biggest will be a static group that knows each other very well. Teamplay will be one of the biggest factors in successful Epic runs.

I just hope and pray the challenge that Epic offers is not watered down to the lowest common denominator.

quintuss
10-15-2009, 07:52 AM
Im thinking 400 silverflame favor will be a must for melee... If u have to ask epic probably isnt for you;)

Well, epic IS for me, since i'm bored again already and i'm fond of nice loot.
The only problem i have is that atm it's easier for me to solo stuff than to group in a pug.
It's actually easier on my ressources and thats a very bad thing imho since this game should be all about grouping.
And soloing would be VERY hard to do in epic content. :p

Guder
10-15-2009, 08:53 AM
3 ToD hard completes on my cleric all 3 pugs I joined. Resources used as follows:
1) 1 pot 7 scrolls
2) 1 pot
3) 0 of anything

Edit: Note they were pugs where I saw some good names involved. So pugish in they were not guild specific

Please, would someone discuss the method in which the end fight strategy used required you as a, I am assuming primary and not 3rd, 4th or more clerics or something such, Healer to not need resources beyond your regular mana pool?

I have heard of some group's discussions being centered on the dps of a hammer vs. dagger? How is this an interesting conversation? about how long would you say those runs took to complete the end fight?

I am not sure what brings this to mind but I just read an interesting quote:
Serve a man a fish and he will eat for a meal. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.

Show a man how to 'range a fish' with dynomite and not only will he kill the entire lake and brag about how 'many he got', 'how easy it is', and 'how wonderful a fisherman he has become' but he will also teach his technique to any weak-minded PUG and tell them this is the 'WAY'.

quintuss
10-15-2009, 09:14 AM
Please, would someone discuss the method in which the end fight strategy used required you as a, I am assuming primary and not 3rd, 4th or more clerics or something such, Healer to not need resources beyond your regular mana pool?

I have heard of some group's discussions being centered on the dps of a hammer vs. dagger? How is this an interesting conversation? about how long would you say those runs took to complete the end fight?

I am not sure what brings this to mind but I just read an interesting quote:
Serve a man a fish and he will eat for a meal. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.

Show a man how to 'range a fish' with dynomite and not only will he kill the entire lake and brag about how 'many he got', 'how easy it is', and 'how wonderful a fisherman he has become' but he will also teach his technique to any weak-minded PUG and tell them this is the 'WAY'.

I fail to understand what you are trying to say here.

Guder
10-15-2009, 09:48 AM
I fail to understand what you are trying to say here.

The answer to your opening post, Quintuss, is that better/stronger/cheaper potions/scrolls/spells should be added to the game to offset the increase in hitpoints, boss damage and 'grazings'.
Just as a general example, if we had mundane use of say- 'cure critical wounds' pots or 'Heal' pots- other than the same 'cure serious wounds' pots- at level 20(when a tank has 500-600 or more hps and a csw pot heals 25hps-5%) that we used to solo 'caged trolls' at level 6(when you could heal 25% of your 100 hps with 1 csw pot) then the costs to you (as an end-game cleric) could be much, much, much lower.
If/Then, (with lower costs to complete high level raids): Good strategies, good teamwork, well-built toons, well-played quests, etc. could be justly rewarded instead of being disadvantaged over other techniques of questing.
In short...it's about taking 'short-cuts' and using the 'easy button' versus truely learning to excel and master a game.
Did you ever play 'Risk' using the 'atom bomb' option? It kinda took the strategy out of the game... but sure made it go alot faster!


EDIT: just to clarify my position...I have learned and believe that anything in life that comes too easily is either illegal/immoral/wrong or just plain no fun...gimme a pocketknife, canteen and drop me off..if I don't come out again you can sleep soundly knowing I gave it a huge effort, went down trying and loved every minute of it...but not once did I hop up on a stump and fling rocks at a bear...because in the real world that bear would've stuffed me under some branches for a snack later in the week.

Jonny_D
10-15-2009, 10:33 AM
Well, epic IS for me, since i'm bored again already and i'm fond of nice loot.
The only problem i have is that atm it's easier for me to solo stuff than to group in a pug.
It's actually easier on my ressources and thats a very bad thing imho since this game should be all about grouping.
And soloing would be VERY hard to do in epic content. :p

wasnt implying epic was not for you. was speaking to any melee that dont have 400 silverflame favor. a good starting point for people that want to run epic is to have seen and beaten the majority of content in the game, for example unlocking the 400 silverflame favor.

As to your being bored and fondness for nice loot... and soloing. You come off as abrasive and demanding of things to go your way without putting in the effort or resources to get the reward. this maybe affecting the quality of groups you are getting... as noone enjoys running with someone who has a sense of entitlement. if u cant find good people to run with through shavarath normal with out burning through resources, then sadly epic is probably not for you at this point.

I along with most of my friends and guildies are looking forward to having something worthwhile to spend our resources on as we see it as an investment and challenge, to fill the time between updates.

Barumar
10-15-2009, 12:34 PM
Epic Clerics will deal with Epic Quests just fine. The rest shouldn't be there.

Just like Elite Clerics deal with Elite Quests with Elite Party Members just fine now.

Fixed that for you :D

It is all about the players in your party - and why I rarely PUG my Cleric!

I do Raid her outside my Guild, but mostly with Raid leaders I know.

Barumar

Kalari
10-15-2009, 12:47 PM
To the Op sorry about your issues with the new stuff. Wont lie till I found my groove and my normal group found what worked in those quests it was supply intensive specially scrolls and the like. But now when we go in we know which quests vorpals work in, which sneaking and pulling aggro slowly is best for and which crowd control spells to use. I found even when im not healing that it makes it easier on the healer for the group to stick together fight in small waves and keep as many buffs against damage specially stone skin which helps with dr and displacements up and going.

As for Epic I look forward to seeing it because I was lucky to find smart players who look out for one and other. Pugging has left a bad taste in my mouth at low to mid levels so there is no way id pug the latest stuff (no dont consider running with a whole guild of other players pugging either :p hehe) :( hate to say it but you may have to find yourself a static group for this stuff that works well together.

quintuss
10-15-2009, 03:51 PM
You come off as abrasive and demanding of things to go your way without putting in the effort or resources to get the reward. this maybe affecting the quality of groups you are getting... as noone enjoys running with someone who has a sense of entitlement. if u cant find good people to run with through shavarath normal with out burning through resources, then sadly epic is probably not for you at this point.

I along with most of my friends and guildies are looking forward to having something worthwhile to spend our resources on as we see it as an investment and challenge, to fill the time between updates.

Alright... hmm i don't know how to answer this.. maybe i worded my posts wrong since english is not my native language but i think you missunderstood me.

I don't demand anything. I just said that with pugs where i need to use 10+ pots to keep a group from wiping and have to carry people in my backpack coz they had been ressed so often that they had only 80hp left, i just can't afford to do more than one run in amrath once in a while. I do solo stuff a lot now to get the loot i need to buy pots/scrolls for further amrath questing and i was really asking myself how clerics like me will be able to support groups in epic desert quests.

I am not one who thinks he's entitled to anything without effort or ressources. In fact i happily ran the desert a few hundret times to get my first bloodstone and i did not complain although time is by far my most precious ressource.

You may have a guild that runs those quests regularly. I just pug them and it seems that rarely anyone in those groups gives a **** about the cleric using all his ressources while they just enjoy the ride.

@Kalari: I would like to do those quests in a static group, maybe i just need to give it more time since i'm not very comfortable with getting to know new people over voicechat. My spoken english is not exactly uber. ;)

@Barumar: Not pugging with your cleric is a wise decision. I only have two options atm. Pug those quests or don't do them at all, since my guild doesn't do a lot of questing there.

As i said before, i did my first ToD yesterday and it was easy and fun for me. I had like 50% sp left everytime we came to a shrine. It just seems that joining random pugs for amrath quests is not a good idea given the immense costs of pots and scrolls over time.

sirgog
10-15-2009, 05:37 PM
...
I refuse to mem mass heal because it is a **** spell. (Has Turbine even fixed the only heals six people thing yet?)


Even without the 6 person bug fixed, it is STILL the most efficient healing spell Clerics have, and remains singlehandedly responsible for me, playing a low-SP melee specced cleric, no longer needing mana potions in Amrath when solohealing even mediocre PUGs.

Don't expect sympathy or donations if you run OOM without Mass Heal loaded in content that is high-level enough that you are expected to have level 9 spells.

shdrex63
10-15-2009, 07:23 PM
Don't expect sympathy or donations if you run OOM without Mass Heal loaded in content that is high-level enough that you are expected to have level 9 spells.
Dont find mass heal reliable enough during abbots inferno or tod part 3, and the prehealing bit (even with quicken it is still slow) is a risk itself because the squishier members of the party might die while your waiting for your 3 second mass heal to land.
CCW,M CSW,M are still reliable and top people nicely even if they arent as cost effective as Mass Heal. (dont even carry it on my FvS only have it on cleric, its an very situational spell and only usable when i dont really need it)

Regarding the oom issue i suggest revising playstyle or not trying, for example elite A New Invasion with people you never played before, as a cleric it is your pick on the group never overextend the group's possibilities.
If you arent lucky to find some friends to play with just keep looking there are always people with the same mentality as you.

GunboatDiplomat
10-16-2009, 07:15 AM
Epic is supposed to be a long need challenge for players, and some players simply aren't up to that challenge.


This is not for the casual gamer, sorry, as casuals have no place in Epic, at least not a for a long time to come.


Epic hopes to bring some new life and challenges to the upper-end of DDO players.


and there you have it. epic is beyond the reach of average. thats where it should be


Epic Clerics will deal with Epic Quests just fine. The rest shouldn't be there.

Just like Elite Clerics deal with Elite Quests just fine now.

DDO isn't rocket science or neurosurgery. You know the primary reason Player A is a much better than Player B? Player A has spent waaaayyy more time playing the game. Its not complicated, the more you play games the better you get at them. Talent doesn't really come into it the vast majority of the time, not in a qualitative way.

But hey, you want to think you're the uber players because of your innate brilliance, go right ahead :D


wasnt implying epic was not for you. was speaking to any melee that dont have 400 silverflame favor. a good starting point for people that want to run epic is to have seen and beaten the majority of content in the game, for example unlocking the 400 silverflame favor.

None of my melees have 400 silverflame favour because I don't like most of the quests! Hmm, I'm a 'casual' player who doesn't have 400 silverflame favor. Guess epic is not for me. Guess I couldn't handle it. Or maybe this is the reason that, as they currently stand, they're not for me:


It is taking the new path of major character progression and making it insanely expensive and tedious.

GlassCannon
10-16-2009, 07:20 AM
But hey, you want to think you're the uber players because of your innate brilliance, go right ahead :D

TY, will do.

By the way, don't talk too loud on Voice... my master is asleep and doesn't know his cat plays DDO... ;)

Shade
10-16-2009, 07:39 AM
DDO isn't rocket science or neurosurgery. You know the primary reason Player A is a much better than Player B? Player A has spent waaaayyy more time playing the game. Its not complicated, the more you play games the better you get at them. Talent doesn't really come into it the vast majority of the time, not in a qualitative way.

Keep telling yourself that.. As long as you believe it thats what counts.

When I see players who I know played since beta repeatedly play very badly... I'll make my own judgements.

Gamer skill is a factor in DDO. A big one.

IMO, a brand new player could join this game today, and in a couple weeks of hardcore play be capped and be among the best players in the game proving to be a very valuable member on a epic quest. He may lack equipment and some practical knowledge veterans have, but high skill at the game can overcome that here. It's one of the things that makes DDO great.

Elsbet
10-16-2009, 07:53 AM
Even without the 6 person bug fixed, it is STILL the most efficient healing spell Clerics have, and remains singlehandedly responsible for me, playing a low-SP melee specced cleric, no longer needing mana potions in Amrath when solohealing even mediocre PUGs.

Don't expect sympathy or donations if you run OOM without Mass Heal loaded in content that is high-level enough that you are expected to have level 9 spells.

I make it through Amrath just fine without it. It's unnecessary when my mass cures can hit for as much as the heals AND I can hit all 12 party members.

paul1devries
10-16-2009, 08:39 AM
OK - i just ran ToD last night as a melee instead of as a cleric....(i posted earlier as a cleric)

A few weeks after release, people have strategies down pat and are working pretty well together and are willing to listen to suggestions...

We had myself (80+ ac guy) and another higher hit point (~500) lower ac guy both with boots.

It was almost embarrasingly easy and no resources used by the two clerics (we also had a bard with us).

My post about it being VERY difficult to not use lots of resources on hard has now been officially withdrawn - they were relevant on a first run hard basis, which is pretty much not the case for most people now.

Do you remember going into part 2 the first time? Boom you are dead...it almost makes you nostalgic about going into the new stuff after only 4 weeks (?) the new stuff has been out...

Bring on the next MOD! (and I will bet it will be very expensive for clerics......for a while - maybe i'll start new stuff with my melee instead of my cleric next time!).

Cheers

sirgog
10-16-2009, 12:15 PM
I make it through Amrath just fine without it. It's unnecessary when my mass cures can hit for as much as the heals AND I can hit all 12 party members.

My MCCW heals for only slightly less than my Mass Heal when I've hit a Superior Ardor 8 clicky (those with better raidloot luck that me will not need the clicky, they'll have it permanently). But, it burns SP - 60 for Mass Heal quickened, 90-something for the MCCW.

MCCW has its place (particularly when you are not sure that party members will live 3 seconds without healing), but trust me - in scenarios where you *know* noone is dying in the next few seconds, try Mass Heal.

Even better, in Shroud 4 (particularly Elite), get 6 melees exactly on Arraetrikos, and have 2 or 3 clerics time their Mass Heals over voice so one lands every 4 (or 3) seconds.

My healing habits have totally changed since learning to use that spell - where previously if someone took damage I'd target them and prepare to throw a Heal when they take more damage, instead I target them and (if others are near them) start casting Mass Heal. Only when MH is on cooldown, the player is alone or they have less than three seconds to live, do I open with any other spell.


Some of this probably comes from my experience playing healers in WoW, where only emergency heals (which have huge mana costs or long cooldowns) resolve instantly - all other heals take time to cast, making you learn to time them correctly. (WoW also is less forgiving of overhealing; you cannot quaff lots of mana pots to make up for wasting a lot of SP)

Elsbet
10-16-2009, 12:32 PM
I am capable of using it just fine, thanks. I choose not to do so because I don't like it because it is so dependent on metamagics, the patience of other players and even with quicken on, takes a ridiculously long time to cast. It is also an absurd waste of healing capacity when I am highly likely to land half of those heals for well over 1,000 hps. There isn't a toon in the game that needs that. It's a teeny tiny, itty bitty ego boost to see the numbers go off, but the gross overkill is just silly. I don't even use heal that much anymore unless I'm fixing stat damage, disease or something else at the same time.

If everyone is standing still and there is no pressing need, I have the time to evaluate the health status of every player and determine what is necessary. Why cast mass heal when one clw and one cmw will heal up the players that need it? Or use a mcmw scroll and not spend any mana at all? Or even better, give those players time to suck a pot or heal themselves, which any decent high level toon will do to conserve cleric mana for when necessary. All of my toons have self healing capacity and I always ask that clerics not heal me between fights--I'll do it myself. I'd rather they have the mana when I can't heal myself.

Anytime you have a list of qualifications for making a spell worth casting, it isn't well designed: If you run quicken; if you have time; if only six people need heals; if you can anticipate when people will take damage; if you can coordinate timing with another cleric; if there is no lag when you are trying to coordinate timing with another cleric (which never happens in the Shroud. It always lags. It just isn't as painful as it used to be.).

Jonny_D
10-16-2009, 01:34 PM
DDO isn't rocket science or neurosurgery. You know the primary reason Player A is a much better than Player B? Player A has spent waaaayyy more time playing the game. Its not complicated, the more you play games the better you get at them. Talent doesn't really come into it the vast majority of the time, not in a qualitative way.
But hey, you want to think you're the uber players because of your innate brilliance, go right ahead :D
You know the primary reason some people are better than others? practice. Good twitch skills and a decent computer help. Having those and the ability to play a certain amount allows one to get good gear which allows them to complete more content more efficiently, excellerating the process.



None of my melees have 400 silverflame favour because I don't like most of the quests! Hmm, I'm a 'casual' player who doesn't have 400 silverflame favor. Guess epic is not for me. Guess I couldn't handle it. Or maybe this is the reason that, as they currently stand, they're not for me:
well then you have not exhausted the content of the game so epic is definately not for you. Epic is the other end of the pendulum swing in which we have seen consistent updates to low and middle range quests designed for new and casual gamers along with a small amount of end game content that offers little challenge. One of the consistent complaints in DDO is the lack of achieveable endgame challenges for power gamers. Since the storm reaver there has not been a raid not beaten in the first week of new content. Epic offers the attrition and skill challenges required by power gamers. Its not immediatly accessable for everyone. This is a good thing for the game, get over your feelings of inadequecy.

Angelus_dead
10-16-2009, 07:38 PM
My healing habits have totally changed since learning to use that spell - where previously if someone took damage I'd target them and prepare to throw a Heal when they take more damage, instead I target them and (if others are near them) start casting Mass Heal.
Sounds like you don't have a Laliat necklace.

Ereshkigal
10-19-2009, 07:49 PM
If you're using pots in genesis point, its time to re-assess the people you group with and your playstyle pretty drastically.

well he mentioned he was PUGging. Must be a masochist. Actually, a masochist that is in denial since he doesn't want to put his whole paycheck into the DDO store. Personally I wish he would put his whole paycheck into the DDO store as then they could grind out new content faster :D

Samadhi
10-20-2009, 01:15 AM
You know the primary reason Player A is a much better than Player B? Player A has spent waaaayyy more time playing the game.

Disagree - I have met way, way too many players that have played a TON, but still don't have the twitch skills to kite, the analytical ability to come up with a nonstandard strategy for a given situation, the memory to find a quest on their own despite their 200 completions, or maybe just the iron nerves to not panic if the unexpected occurs, etc etc.

Or let's use another way of saying the same thing. "Practice makes you better" is one of several applicable theories. Also relevant is "bad habits are hard to break," so that even with repeated practice, I might be reinforcing the wrong thing and getting worse at the game. Also relevant: raw talent. I might spend my entire life trying to dunk a basketball and, at under 6', still fail - whereas I bet Shaq learned to do it pretty quickly.

Trying to directly equate player skill to playing time is just not going to work; and that is something good about this game. A lot of other games, past a certain point, it really is all about gear. The beauty of this game is how much skill can overcome a lack of gear, given certain basics of course.

spyderwolf
10-20-2009, 02:00 AM
Disagree - I have met way, way too many players that have played a TON, but still don't have the twitch skills to kite, the analytical ability to come up with a nonstandard strategy for a given situation, the memory to find a quest on their own despite their 200 completions, or maybe just the iron nerves to not panic if the unexpected occurs, etc etc.

Or let's use another way of saying the same thing. "Practice makes you better" is one of several applicable theories. Also relevant is "bad habits are hard to break," so that even with repeated practice, I might be reinforcing the wrong thing and getting worse at the game. Also relevant: raw talent. I might spend my entire life trying to dunk a basketball and, at under 6', still fail - whereas I bet Shaq learned to do it pretty quickly.

Trying to directly equate player skill to playing time is just not going to work; and that is something good about this game. A lot of other games, past a certain point, it really is all about gear. The beauty of this game is how much skill can overcome a lack of gear, given certain basics of course.

very good post.

GunboatDiplomat
10-20-2009, 05:18 AM
Disagree - I have met way, way too many players that have played a TON, but still don't have the twitch skills to kite, the analytical ability to come up with a nonstandard strategy for a given situation, the memory to find a quest on their own despite their 200 completions, or maybe just the iron nerves to not panic if the unexpected occurs, etc etc.

Or let's use another way of saying the same thing. "Practice makes you better" is one of several applicable theories. Also relevant is "bad habits are hard to break," so that even with repeated practice, I might be reinforcing the wrong thing and getting worse at the game. Also relevant: raw talent. I might spend my entire life trying to dunk a basketball and, at under 6', still fail - whereas I bet Shaq learned to do it pretty quickly.

Trying to directly equate player skill to playing time is just not going to work; and that is something good about this game. A lot of other games, past a certain point, it really is all about gear. The beauty of this game is how much skill can overcome a lack of gear, given certain basics of course.

You're comparing basketball to a computer game? Thats ridiculous. Height, weight, eyesight, rhythmn, co-ordination, balance, aim, attitude, willpower, teamwork and leadership - all of these are essential for a good basketball player. Many of them are predetermined by birth/enviroment and are impossible to qualtitatively improve. Most of them are totally irelevant for a computer game. Most of the the rest are totally different. The only real similarities are those of leadership and teamwork.

Even on somehting that sounds like it 'could be' similar actually isn't. You can't compare aiming a basketball at a net and aiming a gun or sword to spell in a game. Its absurd. Its incomparably easier to play a computer game. Thats why computer games are so much more popular to play - anyone can do it well. Its also why computer games make such a lousy spectator sport - anyone can do it well.

I'm not saying theres no difference between players. I'm not saying some players don't have a 'natural aptitude' for ddo more than others. I'm saying that the primary determinent is amount of time spent and the difference between the very best ddo player and a mediocre ddo player is very small indeed.

Whereas the difference between my basketball skills (such as they are) and Shaq's skills - well they're light years apart.

GunboatDiplomat
10-20-2009, 05:18 AM
You know the primary reason some people are better than others? practice. Good twitch skills and a decent computer help. Having those and the ability to play a certain amount allows one to get good gear which allows them to complete more content more efficiently, excellerating the process.


well then you have not exhausted the content of the game so epic is definately not for you. Epic is the other end of the pendulum swing in which we have seen consistent updates to low and middle range quests designed for new and casual gamers along with a small amount of end game content that offers little challenge. One of the consistent complaints in DDO is the lack of achieveable endgame challenges for power gamers. Since the storm reaver there has not been a raid not beaten in the first week of new content. Epic offers the attrition and skill challenges required by power gamers. Its not immediatly accessable for everyone. This is a good thing for the game, get over your feelings of inadequecy.

(my emhpasis)

Well its difficult to get over feelings of inadequacy when i have such a tiny willy but leaving that aside...

What so I have to have done all of the quests in the game to death before I can do epic? Who appointed you as gatekeeper? My builds and skills are as good as anyone whos put 100s of houras into the game. I'm as capable of doing epic content as your good self. The question is do I want to? As initially described the answer is 'no'. Hopefully as they tone down the more tedious elements and fine tune it that will become 'yes.'

FluffyCalico
10-20-2009, 05:22 AM
Well its difficult to get over feelings of inadequacy when i have such a tiny willy

We don't want to know this.
In the future...Don't ask don't tell. Thanks

GunboatDiplomat
10-20-2009, 05:32 AM
We don't want to know this.
In the future...Don't ask don't tell. Thanks

Does I get sum rep?? :p

FluffyCalico
10-20-2009, 05:39 AM
Does I get sum rep?? :p

Sadly I am all out of neg rep today.

Myriam
10-20-2009, 06:06 AM
houras

Holy Hell, I thought I stayed drunk when I was off work! :D

totmacher
10-20-2009, 08:45 AM
i find it funny that nobody who has replied has done any of these epic quests :P so i'm gonna get this thread back on topic

i've done all the epic quests now once and all the new quests on elite. you can halve or third some of these numbers as i would chug pots instead of using shrines, wouldn't use heal scrolls, would act as a nuker, etc. i didn't waste mana needlessly though, i just didn't care if i chugged a pot since i have so many of them. i was the solo cleric for all of these runs.

pot usage as breaks down:

heavy (100+):

oob, adq 1, adq 2

moderate (50-100):

chains, wizking, last dreaming dark quest on elite

low (no pots necessary with prep and scrolls):

last dreaming dark quest (i forget its name) on norm, rest of DD on elite/norm


my conclusion is that this will be yet another reason to get out there and spend points at the ddo store. yes, the epic level quests are going to be hard to do without pots (lots of recalling). in terms of healing, there will be necessary pot usage or recall usage for epic level quests. these mobs would regularly knock down blah for half. blahish is one of the most geared out people i know.

Vorn
10-20-2009, 08:54 AM
<snip> my conclusion is that this will be yet another reason to get out there and spend points at the ddo store. yes, the epic level quests are going to be hard to do without pots (lots of recalling). in terms of healing, there will be necessary pot usage or recall usage for epic level quests. these mobs would regularly knock down blah for half. blahish is one of the most geared out people i know.

Microtransactions Eff Tee Dubya!!!

PS, Tot, you need to drag my favor character through the new stuff on elite!!!:)

totmacher
10-20-2009, 09:00 AM
I did it on Hard last night, I was the group cleric with my 1400 SP cleric, I used one pot and 40 scrolls--I prob did not have to use the pot but I wanted to be safe. The Main tank healer did not use a pot (unless he snuck it in--when he got low on SP I still had 1100 SP left and wanted to switch, but he did not want to switch as he knew that I have a high AC and liek to melee on that cleric) he probably used 80- 100 scrolls, as that is what I usuallly use on Hard when I heal the main tank. We used a Stalwart Defender Tank with 600+ HP, around 80ish AC and he pretty much only takes damage from DOTS and Distengrate.

I just use Empower Healing on all my Clerics. I do NOT use the Mass heal spell, and in ToD rarely have to throw any of the other mass heals because of how we do it. I am a huge fan of sleet storm--and use this in most raids I run.

We also had a Bard that used scrolls for healing.

It all comes down to what kind of strategy you are using, and how self sufficient the other people in your group are--Your Buffing? Our Rangers and Palis do the buffing b4 shrining to go into the 3rd part, etc. The people who group with us knwo to back off so that they can be healed with scrolls or top off themselves.

If you do use more supplies as a cleric, it is not your fault, it's usually the group is not working well together, or people are not listening to the leader.

Edited to ADD: I also had the benefit of leading this raid, and the 2 pugs we brought along knew my policy full well of part 3--if your dumb enough to die and not the main tank--you stay dead.

i hate the trolling and arguing on the forums so i don't usually respond but i just wanted to clear something up for anyone reading. so don't take this the wrong way but ac doesn't matter for horoth. 100+ "tanks" (since they're more like paper leaf monk splashes) still get hit consistently

paul1devries
10-20-2009, 09:44 AM
Hmm - i know you know your stuff but on regular i was the ac tank on Horoth and was getting hit very infrequently - do you mean on hard/elite?

My ac was 80 or so without clickies and 90+ with them on and seemed to not get hit much. I will pay attention next time and see what rolls he needs to hit.....

Cheers,

totmacher
10-20-2009, 10:06 AM
Hmm - i know you know your stuff but on regular i was the ac tank on Horoth and was getting hit very infrequently - do you mean on hard/elite?

My ac was 80 or so without clickies and 90+ with them on and seemed to not get hit much. I will pay attention next time and see what rolls he needs to hit.....

Cheers,

it would be nice to know but i had heard a well-known tank with 100+ ac was getting destroyed on normal on argo. and my information's second-hand but jenisis on argo, who has an ac in the 90s vs. horoth, was saying he was getting hit consistently. so my sources may be incorrect (I don't have a toon in that range so i can't verify for myself)

Pallol_One-Eye
10-20-2009, 11:04 AM
it would be nice to know but i had heard a well-known tank with 100+ ac was getting destroyed on normal on argo. and my information's second-hand but jenisis on argo, who has an ac in the 90s vs. horoth, was saying he was getting hit consistently. so my sources may be incorrect (I don't have a toon in that range so i can't verify for myself)

Hey bud, could it have possibly just been the curses/dots stacked and proc-ing at the same time causing the damage? I was just asking as the few times I have been tank it seemed I was taking more damage from the procs than the actual melee damage.

My two melee "mains" have no AC as they are barbs, but with the DoD proc, inherent DR and a few other buffs, most melee damage did not seem to be getting through.

I'm just asking as I only have like 10-12 completions and don't necessarily have the best point of reference on this.

Thanks.

Tamryn
10-20-2009, 12:45 PM
We've done plenty of tods on hard without pot use, though I concur scrolls are used and should be expected .. only about 40-60 per user, though, nothing out of line with what you'd use for a vod or the like.

Shouldn't need anywhere near that for VoD or ToD , if so then people are messing up. One of the ost critical things I find is dividing the work between clerics to sets of people they heal, anything else and double healing happens and a lot of SP and scrolls get wasted.

The_Phenx
10-27-2009, 10:46 AM
One reason I pretty much shelved my cleric. She is still not doing Amrath quests and will never do epic quests unless I get 2 major mana pots from each person that I am healing prior for PUG groups.


Odd, My cleric usually has plenty of SP left over when I hit the shrines...

Anthios888
10-27-2009, 12:52 PM
MCCW has its place (particularly when you are not sure that party members will live 3 seconds without healing), but trust me - in scenarios where you *know* noone is dying in the next few seconds, try Mass Heal.


But you can't do anything else in that time, like swing a greataxe!

Angelus_dead
10-27-2009, 12:59 PM
Shouldn't need anywhere near that for VoD or ToD , if so then people are messing up.
Lol sorry. If you have a tactic to cut down Hard mode Horoth before he can do 80 scrolls worth of damage, let's hear it.

Angelus_dead
10-27-2009, 01:01 PM
But you can't do anything else in that time, like swing a greataxe!
Exactly: the casting time for Mass Heal is a big cost in two ways. Not only does it create an opportunity for the monsters to kill someone in the seconds you're waiting for it to finish (and a possibility for the player to run from the monster and also get blocked from you), but it also costs whatever other actions the cleric could perform in a few seconds.

If the cleric is a melee build, then Mass Heal should basically be considered as also healing the monsters an amount of damage equal to two or three times your own DPS. But regarding Epic quests, I guess the assumption is that no cleric will have the freedom to help in melee whatsoever.

Junts
10-27-2009, 01:30 PM
i hate the trolling and arguing on the forums so i don't usually respond but i just wanted to clear something up for anyone reading. so don't take this the wrong way but ac doesn't matter for horoth. 100+ "tanks" (since they're more like paper leaf monk splashes) still get hit consistently


Someone in the mid-80s will in fact get missed quite a bit and further take quite a few grazes, but it pales in comparison to the dot damage and even a high ac character will need some healing .. however, if you do it with a blocking intimitank, it gets quite noticable as he grazes for 30-40 points and those will start being totally absorbed by dr.

totmacher
10-27-2009, 04:07 PM
I like this thread. it reminds me of why relating your experiences on the ddo forums is useless as long as there's a bunch of people who are more interested in arguing around

Sweetpea
10-28-2009, 07:31 AM
Epic Clerics will deal with Epic Quests just fine. The rest shouldn't be there.

Just like Elite Clerics deal with Elite Quests just fine now.


So true :)

sirgog
10-28-2009, 08:10 AM
Exactly: the casting time for Mass Heal is a big cost in two ways. Not only does it create an opportunity for the monsters to kill someone in the seconds you're waiting for it to finish (and a possibility for the player to run from the monster and also get blocked from you), but it also costs whatever other actions the cleric could perform in a few seconds.

If the cleric is a melee build, then Mass Heal should basically be considered as also healing the monsters an amount of damage equal to two or three times your own DPS. But regarding Epic quests, I guess the assumption is that no cleric will have the freedom to help in melee whatsoever.

Mass Heal takes 2.5 seconds to cast (quickened), so yes, it can be considered to heal your melee target for 2.5 times your DPS. That tends to be only a little more than the amount lost casting Heal on one target and Max-Empped Cure Critical Wounds on another, however, and even in groups where they aren't the only cleric, seldom is a battlecleric in the group solely for their melee DPS - in almost every fight in the entire game your party is better off if you sacrifice some DPS to throw urgent heals.

Given the way Epic looks, I think groups with 2 battleclerics, 1 warchanter, 1 arcane and 2 traditional melees will fare significantly better than more traditional groups with 1 offensive caster/healbot cleric, 1 warchanter, 1 arcane and 3 traditional melees - single cleric groups look like they will just run out of healing mana too quickly, offensive cleric spells have never been very strong against foes with (practically) red-name immunities and 5000+ HP, and groups with two healbots will lack the DPS to take down foes in a reasonable time (although they should be stronger than the 1/1/1/3 parties overall). But I'll know for sure once I get this ******* thesis handed in and am free to game again.

Luthen
10-29-2009, 01:54 PM
I doubt 5 major mana pots will make a dent on the healing required in epic content, however keep in mind, when doing epic content, you are already capped, so here is how I foresee clerics doing epic content.

Recall or shrine after nearly every battle.

Except, lets say, in Chamber of Raiyum Epic you cannot recall or D Door because a barrier goes up preventing reentry. Any other bright ideas? :)

Ironsolid
10-29-2009, 02:26 PM
If you're using pots in genesis point, its time to re-assess the people you group with and your playstyle pretty drastically.

This ^.^

Maybe even re roll!

Invalid_50
10-29-2009, 05:07 PM
I haven't played the new epic stuff yet, but reading about it really makes me wonder how clerics are supposed to support groups in quests like those?

The only capped char i have is a cleric and i don't get to play the amrath quests a lot as it is now since i just can't afford the amount of pots needed.
Good guild groups may be able to play quests like Genesis Point with reasonable amounts of ressources.. pugs are not.
For every pug run of Genesis Point i needed 10+ major sp pots to keep the group alive.
Since i refuse to insert my paycheck into the ddo store every month, i need to run a lot of explorers and lower level quests to be able to run amrath once in a while. That just sucks!

If i read how hard those epic desert quests are, how long fights take and how much damage the mobs are doing, how is a cleric supposed to keep up?!?!?

Yes let me give my own personal experiences to justify to YOU why this game is objectively balanced.

“While I travel through dungeons, even genesis point (which is named after me by the way since I am the alpha and omega) on my cleric I have so much mana I p00op little mana pots behind me for the short bus clerics to drink; the ones they don’t drink we save and sell to the DDO store so we can keep fully stocked on red vine licorice. You must be doing something wrong if you are not p00oing mana potions too!

I mean like, omg! This game is EZ mode for people like me who know full well that our own personal experiences justify conclusively the fact that the game is fine and that you need to l3rn2play…The End.”

Shade
11-01-2009, 09:36 AM
After running these quest alot I say clerics do have a rough time with them. They certainly don't need pots, but they do usually need a good stack or 2 of heal scrolls.

Favored souls on the other hand seem able to handle them fine often with little or no scroll use. That extra bit of mana per shrine makes all the difference.

Ran allot of these (have 15 quest tokens).. Many with just a single favored soul, and except for DQ1 in a bad run, they really never run outa mana. They just use mass heal which is super effecient and there mana lasts thoughougt the quest healing everyone, no pots.

Kalari
11-01-2009, 11:25 AM
I think a regular cleric can go into epic quest if they play smart. I went into the chamber of Rayium with two favored souls on my ranger with a barbarian and a wizard. We pulled the gnolls in small waves since they hit hard (hyenas are a real pain) have immunity to death effects and hit very hard. We had one guy take a beating while we beat down the thing hitting him and had one of the favored souls kite the smaller pool of mobs with bb. If your cleric is specced to blade barrier and throw such spells you will be okay.

Healing was not really an big issue since we played smart even the ones taking damage (lol admit I did specially from the golems) could heal ourselves and our wizard was of the school of not being hit so used crowd control a lot which helped. Our only folly was not realizing till it was too late that you cant d-door to the beginning shrines for mana in epic which we purposely saved so wed have them in a pinch and one of the favored souls and wizard got locked out :( doh.

we wont make that mistake again next time and I think we will be able to do this and im confident both my clerics will be okay in the epic quests.

cdemeritt
11-01-2009, 01:50 PM
Sorry for skipping most of this thread... But clerics will learn to deal, just as they always have... When the shroud was new it wasn't uncommon to have 3 clerics and need pots on a regular basis.... Even before the cap went up, it wasn't uncommon for a single cleric to do a shroud without pots......
Then there was VoD, here again when it was new (I remember my first run used a birthdaycake rest shrine, used twice and we still failed) it wasn't uncommon for clerics to need several pots and lots of resources... now it is quite possible to run it without any SP pots....
Then there was...... I think you see the pattern.

Clerics will have it rough for a bit, then it will be not so bad, then easy... It takes time for everyone to figure out the best stratigies to finish with the least resources....

I see no diff with the Epic/new content.

quintuss
11-01-2009, 03:06 PM
Yesterday i was finally able to do an epic run (chains of flame) with a pug.
We had two clerics, a sorc, two rangers and a fighter.

After like 5 groups of gnolls we recalled since we figured that doing the quest would take to long for some of the players. (Me and one other player were from Europe and for us it was already 2AM)
I think that after some time and with a static group, it can be done with moderate use of ressources but those quests will still be a massive drain on the clerics plat reserve when trying to pug them.

Auran82
11-01-2009, 09:02 PM
After running a couple of epic quests and the raid on my cleric I can say that we will learn how to deal with the quests.

Carrying a couple of stacks of scrolls and a couple of pots for emergencies is what I've been doing and just being smart on how you approach fights and not getting overwhelmed.

At least we have finally found a use for mass heal, lol.

The raid was insane on a cleric, but I have to say, heaps of fun, running like mad and trying to heal someone when suddenly you're knocked over by the queen. Those blade barriers are nasty, lol.

FluffyCalico
11-01-2009, 09:08 PM
I have completed 4 of the 5 on epic...the raid got the boss to about 7%.

Most quests everyone shares the resources needed. So I really don't understand why people keep saying how will the "cleric" This is party resources not cleric resouces. Clerics will realise that and there will be no issue. Bring your barb or ranger I don't care, but you are still bringing 1/6th the supplies needed.

Junts
11-01-2009, 09:13 PM
Yesterday i was finally able to do an epic run (chains of flame) with a pug.
We had two clerics, a sorc, two rangers and a fighter.

After like 5 groups of gnolls we recalled since we figured that doing the quest would take to long for some of the players. (Me and one other player were from Europe and for us it was already 2AM)
I think that after some time and with a static group, it can be done with moderate use of ressources but those quests will still be a massive drain on the clerics plat reserve when trying to pug them.

These quests are roughly on par with the hardest raid in the game on elite in terms of mob strength; they are clearly in no way intended to be pugged, any moreso than elite tods are regularly pugged at this ponit. Possible, sure, but unlikely in a true pug and not the 'I put up an lfm and took my friends/associates' kind of way.

Thrombur_Stormforger
11-02-2009, 06:56 AM
I'm thinking that if you're not using mana pots for elite or epic content, especially high level stuff like Amrath, then what are you using them for? If you're not going to use your mana pots, then why even have them...put them up for auction or give them away...my 2 cents....not to mention...most of my toons are melee builds, so pretty much every mana pot i find goes either to the casters in whatever party i'm in or a guildy or friend who can use them...and i know i'm not the only person who donates to clerics....

zooble
11-02-2009, 07:00 AM
nothing to do with the epic quests but with regards to the new mindsunder quests they are all easy on normal but on elite they are much easier with 2 healers. 2 healers we can both blade barrier it up doing more damage and taking less.

take 6 clerics for epic quests? :P

Visty
11-02-2009, 07:15 AM
I'm thinking that if you're not using mana pots for elite or epic content, especially high level stuff like Amrath, then what are you using them for? If you're not going to use your mana pots, then why even have them...put them up for auction or give them away...my 2 cents....not to mention...most of my toons are melee builds, so pretty much every mana pot i find goes either to the casters in whatever party i'm in or a guildy or friend who can use them...and i know i'm not the only person who donates to clerics....

i think the fact that you only have melee chars makes you think what you think

manapots are for when it hits the fan, to prevent a whipe etc
you shouldnt drink them just because you run on elite

zooble
11-02-2009, 07:44 AM
After running these quest alot I say clerics do have a rough time with them. They certainly don't need pots, but they do usually need a good stack or 2 of heal scrolls.

how is that any different. they are both consumables. 1 is easier to get. the main reason you'd pot is to cast more heals. lets face it... if someone wants a death ward you are not going to pot.

the end result is that they both cost alot of gold for frequent use and 99% of the time no other group member will give their healer gold/scrolls/pots... all this despite the fact that many end game healers use more $ worth of scroll than the sell value of loot they find in any given run.

what does that mean? every1 profits but the healer. too many rich veteran clerics running around giving the impression that 1 cleric groups (2 cleric raids) are still viable endgame. fact is they arn't unless you gear yourself to the point where running that particular quest isn't a challenge anymore. and the only way they pull it off now is through consumables which is unfortune for ALL clerics/fvs as this is now the norm. you can forget the days of when you never even heard of heal scrolls or wands... enter the money sink.

it gets to the point where people stand in aoe, obvious powerful attacks, totally ignore the fact that an enemy blade barrier is up n take damage from it, go toe to toe with a hard hitting melee (eg: mummy wiz king) they simply cannot match etc etc and thinking the healer can cope with it...guess who heals the damage and with what consumable? all to get as many big numbers in as possible. ive seen alot of people not kite through fw/bb despite how much easier it would make the fight for everyone.

you might as well take no cleric and get a umd to do all the healing. asides from buffs the only difference would be they would be the one spending all the gold.

imo the only characters you should take are defensive based melee (eg: monks etc), casters and 2 healers. all self sufficient and specced in crowd control where possible.

Visty
11-02-2009, 07:49 AM
how is that any different. they are both consumables. 1 is easier to get. the main reason you'd pot is to cast more heals. lets face it... if someone wants a death ward you are not going to pot.

scrolls are cheaper and easier to come by

why pay 1000gp for a pot when you can buy 10 scrolls for the same money and the same outcome? (price is made up)

SteeleTrueheart
11-02-2009, 08:29 AM
People should just get into the mindset. If you are going to run an elite raid or Epic content then pay up to the cleric before you get very far into the quest.

My first epic run today was a PUG. It was brutal. I knew it would be so I took the resources I thought it would need. 6 mana pots for the cleric (who used more than just my 6). 3 spirit cake reward things (just in case - did not use) and a rest shrine from collectables (my one and only - gratefully used towards the end). Unfortunately I did not have any heal scrolls left on that character when I thought I did, otherwise I would have donated 100.

For all those resources, the one and only cleric kept us all alive (or brought us back to life when necessary) and we powered through the quest. I had a 11k plat repair bill and the items I pulled were sold for 9k plat.

But now I have a nice purple EPIC in my favour log. That has to count for something right?

iraiqat316
11-02-2009, 08:38 AM
Hey EPIC Wiz King was a One trip through for me, REALLY SOLID group, 15 Mana pots and 3 Eladrin Shrines later, I got an EPIC Completion w/ a Firestorm Greaves token. If you can't find it GRIND IT!

ace_mason
11-02-2009, 11:54 AM
3 words: Ottos Irresistable Dance.
1 Sorc
1 Bard (warchanter Melee)
3 Tanks
1 Cleric/Favored Soul
Bard buffs and hastes,Sorc Dances,Melee Kill,Cleric heals. You can burn through the epic content with very little resources. If you use the skills and spells provided to you the quests are easy. If you do not know how to use the skills and spells to your advantage you have no right being in the epic content. The content is great how it is laid out now. Go in with your friends if your survive you are a great group. If not then you have some work to do on your toons.

gemineye
11-02-2009, 05:04 PM
you learned alot in your 4 weeks playing.....there are ALOT of clerics who have ALOT of plat...you don't hear them complaining




how is that any different. they are both consumables. 1 is easier to get. the main reason you'd pot is to cast more heals. lets face it... if someone wants a death ward you are not going to pot.

the end result is that they both cost alot of gold for frequent use and 99% of the time no other group member will give their healer gold/scrolls/pots... all this despite the fact that many end game healers use more $ worth of scroll than the sell value of loot they find in any given run.

what does that mean? every1 profits but the healer. too many rich veteran clerics running around giving the impression that 1 cleric groups (2 cleric raids) are still viable endgame. fact is they arn't unless you gear yourself to the point where running that particular quest isn't a challenge anymore. and the only way they pull it off now is through consumables which is unfortune for ALL clerics/fvs as this is now the norm. you can forget the days of when you never even heard of heal scrolls or wands... enter the money sink.

it gets to the point where people stand in aoe, obvious powerful attacks, totally ignore the fact that an enemy blade barrier is up n take damage from it, go toe to toe with a hard hitting melee (eg: mummy wiz king) they simply cannot match etc etc and thinking the healer can cope with it...guess who heals the damage and with what consumable? all to get as many big numbers in as possible. ive seen alot of people not kite through fw/bb despite how much easier it would make the fight for everyone.

you might as well take no cleric and get a umd to do all the healing. asides from buffs the only difference would be they would be the one spending all the gold.

imo the only characters you should take are defensive based melee (eg: monks etc), casters and 2 healers. all self sufficient and specced in crowd control where possible.

Shade
11-02-2009, 06:55 PM
how is that any different.

One stack of heal scrolls from qwijy mart (or any good haggle bard) is 13kpp. For a cleric, they provide over 240 points of healing on a good tank. So thats 24,000 points of healing per stack.
One mana pot off the auction house costs 10-15kpp, so on average about the same as a stack of scrolls. On average you get maybe 200 sp, at 35 hp a heal.. You'd get maybe 6 heals from that. A good heal generally fills any tank up, doing 500+ per pop.. So about 3000 points of healing, if your tanks all had major hitpoints and damage.

3000 versus 24,000 for the same gold cost.

Mana pots are used by clerics who are really bad at math.
Or just in groups so terrible they need heavy burst healing in situations they should not (ie non-boss encounters).