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Drfirewater79
10-13-2009, 01:55 PM
I dont mind losing all 2600+ favor
I dont mind losing 4 +3 tomes
I dont mind leveling all over again to 20 maybe even x2

I do mind getting less exp per mission to do it ... i enjoy high level content and absolutly hate low level and mid level content ...

if i have to spend more time there I am likely to get sick of the game and not keep up my subscription fee and not play as a free to play either especially with the rise of many big hype MMO's comming next year.

What i want is an answer from Eladrin Tolero or Tarant on why they feel this is need after already raping our characters of all +2-4 tomes will they continue to fustrate us with slower leveling?

Not everyone who plays DDO has no job and all the time in the world to play this game.

I already play 4-5 hours a day and havent gotten more then 1 of my 11 characters to lvl 20 as is .....

now your telling me in order to remove one stupid level I took on this guy i am gonna have to work twice as hard ?

why is it that no one in Development saw this and said ... you know what people are already gonna be ****ed about losing tomes they had to grind for a year (you know the time it took you to put out the last mod) and we kinda pooched them for sub fees last year and have been beging for respecs for 3+ years now ... how about we just let them start over clean slate and keep there raid loot ....

I want to know who specifically came up with the idea of less exp when you have to level to 20 just to fix a one level mistake.

how about this how about you come up with another respec system which allows you to take a 28 to a 32 point build and respec your levels without the exp loss .... ?

really the exp limitation is the only thing i find that is completly unreasonable in the whole respec system to come .... hope someone over there wakes up and changes it to normal exp progression.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 02:06 PM
Sorry, how do you get less experience while relevelling? Did they not reset the "first time bonus" and "repeats" counters for quests?

KoboldKiller
10-13-2009, 02:08 PM
Sorry, how do you get less experience while relevelling? Did they not reset the "first time bonus" and "repeats" counters for quests?

According to the description if you True Reincarnate the base xp given for each quest is lowered, at least that's how I read it.

Tuney
10-13-2009, 02:13 PM
according to what i read , the exp gains is the same the needed ammount to level (first time) is 5% higher

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 02:16 PM
according to what i read , the exp gains is the same the needed ammount to level (first time) is 5% higher

Yup, that's my understanding as well based on posts from the Lama testers.

KoboldKiller
10-13-2009, 02:18 PM
Ah. ok, I misunderstood what I read.

Drfirewater79
10-13-2009, 02:35 PM
I must have miss read it too then

It is all i hear about every day on live servers from people who are in lama

everyone is saying you get down scaled 5% of all exp

if that is not the case then I have nothing to worry about i have two weeks of vacation not taken this year to get hack back to 20

I wish we could get a dev like the sexy tolero or the ever vigialent Tarant to clear this up for us that would be great.

Althotas
10-13-2009, 03:07 PM
You have to gain 5% more xp for each bubble. Quest XP is the same.

Drfirewater79
10-13-2009, 03:27 PM
so you need more exp to level that is BS either way you look at it

5% might not seem like much but take it over 20 levels

that is 100 bubbles/ranks

which means we need to do 21 levels worth of exp (5 ranks more) to respec a character as well as lose all our tomes and favor.

that doesn't seem a bit steep to you? might not if you dont have 4 +3 tomes but since the only character i have that could use a respec does have that it seems like quite a price to pay espcially since he has been that way since january of 2007 and people have been asking for a way to change one level mistakes like the one i have for over 3 years I dont need a 34 point build ... he is a 28 and that is fine so long as i can get rid of the stupid lvl of ranger i took before capstones where even thought about.

Gorby
10-13-2009, 03:35 PM
What i want is an answer from Eladrin Tolero or Tarant on why they feel this is need



I wish we could get a dev like the sexy tolero or the ever vigialent Tarant to clear this up for us that would be great.

Ermm.. you do realize that Tolero and Tarrant are our Forum Moderators and do not make development decisions regarding the amount of xp we receive ingame right?

Thrudh
10-13-2009, 03:47 PM
that doesn't seem a bit steep to you?

No, 5% doesn't seem very steep to me...


i have two weeks of vacation not taken this year to get hack back to 20

And if you can level to 20 in two weeks, one extra day won't kill you...

Personally, I think you got bigger problems than a 5% penalty if you're planning on spending two full weeks of vacation doing nothing but grinding out this game (especially since you claim you're going to hate every second of it), but different strokes for different folks...

MadFloyd
10-13-2009, 05:31 PM
True Reincarnation is NOT intended as a respec feature. It's merely an option for those who are attracted to the notion of further progressing their characters and not intended for everyone.

I wouldn't recommend using this feature solely to correct a bad multi-class decision.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 05:35 PM
True Reincarnation is NOT intended as a respec feature. It's merely an option for those who are attracted to the notion of further progressing their characters and not intended for everyone.

I wouldn't recommend using this feature solely to correct a bad multi-class decision.

Well then Mad this feature is a FAIL as you have missed what people have been asking for :mad: We've got you saying this and then 404 saying that the XP grind is 2x XP and 4x XP and not the 5% previously reported. Take those together and its a real failure to meet what players wanted and need.

You know I had decided not to level my original 28pt cleric past 16 because well... she was a PnP build and as much as I was attached to her she just didn't meet the DDO min/max standards to really play at a reasonable level and with the HUGE XP cost for 17-20 it wasn't worth it. I had also been thinking of rolling a FvS (and buying it...no 2500 favor here) but a 3rd cleric type in the fold sounded a bit much, as was regrinding another set of cleric items. And then TR came out and I was EXTREMELY excited about the possibilty of rerolling that first cleric as a 34 pt FvS. My credit card was all warmed up and ready to go and last night I broke her out and started levelling again. I guess she goes back to storage now and I forget the TR and FvS. Ah heck... I have less reason to log in every day :(

Borror0
10-13-2009, 05:38 PM
I wouldn't recommend using this feature solely to correct a bad multi-class decision.
If not already in the works, you guys should consider the possibility to add some sort of class level respec to correct bad multiclasses. Either by adding Superior Reincarnation or by adding that to Greater Reincarnation (both options are fine and have their own perk).

The best way that I could see that being done with the tech that was developed for the other Reincarnations is to make the character relevel like with Lesser Reincarnation but leaving us the option to say "No, I don't want this level". This way, there would be a penalty to respec too many class levels (you would have to regain the levels back) but it is not as hard as it would be to use True Reincarnation or reroll to fix the character's flaw.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 05:43 PM
If not already in the works, you guys should consider the possibility to add some sort of class level respec to correct bad multiclasses. Either by adding Superior Reincarnation or by adding that to Greater Reincarnation (both options are fine and have their own perk).

The best way that I could see that being done with the tech that was developed for the other Reincarnations is to make the character relevel like with Lesser Reincarnation but leaving us the option to say "No, I don't want this level". This way, there would be a penalty to respec too many class levels (you would have to regain the levels back) but it is not as hard as it would be to use True Reincarnation or reroll to fix the character's flaw.

This would be a reasonable compromise.... Especially if it didn't require you to level to 20 (and why would it, like lesser and greater it gives no special power up)

MadFloyd
10-13-2009, 05:44 PM
Well then Mad this feature is a FAIL as you have missed what people have been asking for :mad:

And I'll ask the same thing here I asked in the other thread.... is it 5% extra XP as reported here or 2x XP and 4x XP as 404 reported?

This feature is not in response to any specific request.

You'll need 1.652236842 times the XP to be precise.

MadFloyd
10-13-2009, 05:45 PM
If not already in the works, you guys should consider the possibility to add some sort of class level respec to correct bad multiclasses. Either by adding Superior Reincarnation or by adding that to Greater Reincarnation (both options are fine and have their own perk).

The best way that I could see that being done with the tech that was developed for the other Reincarnations is to make the character relevel like with Lesser Reincarnation but leaving us the option to say "No, I don't want this level". This way, there would be a penalty to respec too many class levels (you would have to regain the levels back) but it is not as hard as it would be to use True Reincarnation or reroll to fix the character's flaw.

Great idea.

nytewolf
10-13-2009, 05:45 PM
True Reincarnation is NOT intended as a respec feature. It's merely an option for those who are attracted to the notion of further progressing their characters and not intended for everyone.

I wouldn't recommend using this feature solely to correct a bad multi-class decision.

Question then, what feature would you use for a bad multi-class decision since lesser and greater reincarnation wont allow any change or removal of class choice??

Just a note your comment of bad multi-class decision implys player error that needs correcting. When many (Not all of course) are stating game changes made after the fact are fueling the desire for a respec mechanism.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 05:45 PM
This feature is not in response to any specific request.


Wow, and here people have been talking about how the devs were finally listening. I'm sorry Mad, I probably shouldn't take it out on you, but this is really disappointing....



You'll need 1.652236842 times the XP to be precise.

And just out of curriousity what's the XP required for 2nd TR?

Borror0
10-13-2009, 05:47 PM
This would be a reasonable compromise.... Especially if it didn't require you to level to 20 (and why would it, like lesser and greater it gives no special power up)
The funny part is that it's oddly similar to a proposal I made several months ago (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175461) even if I tackled the problem from a different angle this time.

EDIT:

Wow, and here people have been talking about how the devs were finally listening. I'm sorry Mad, I probably shouldn't take it out on you, but this is really disappointing....
No, they listened: both Lesser and Greater were in response to specific requests.

However, True Reincarnation was not (as it was intended as character progression rather than a respec). It's probably intended to use the tech they developed more. ("Well, since we made it we might as well think of some idea to use it even for: low production cost; bigger revenues.")

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 05:49 PM
The funny part is that it's oddly similar to a proposal I made several months ago (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175461) even if I tackled the problem from a different angle this time.

EDIT:

Thanks.

It's also been suggested recently in about 9 lama threads. It's just so incredibly obvious and straight forward...

Well at least one Dev noticed it now, maybe one day it will show up :(

jakeelala
10-13-2009, 06:36 PM
True Reincarnation is NOT intended as a respec feature. It's merely an option for those who are attracted to the notion of further progressing their characters and not intended for everyone.

I wouldn't recommend using this feature solely to correct a bad multi-class decision.

Well a sr. level producer should come in and offer an answer as to WHY no respec for incorrect levels is being offered.

In PnP at the very least, you can alignments, which would alleviate SO MUCH of the complaining from the player base.

It's almost just mean to not allow it. How hard would it be to only let you change you alignment to something allowable with current character levels?

Like, not at all, so don't try that busted excuse as has been suggested.

Shade
10-13-2009, 06:47 PM
Well then Mad this feature is a FAIL as you have missed what people have been asking for :mad: (

It's not fail because allot of players, like myself think its a cool feature that extends the life of the game for the hardcore players.

The devs fully understand you want a 100%, full, free, no strings attached, easy button respec. But sorry they are not giving that to you. Saying this feature is bad because its not what you want is nonsense.

You messed up your character, suck it up and reroll normally.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 07:07 PM
It's not fail because allot of players, like myself think its a cool feature that extends the life of the game for the hardcore players.

The devs fully understand you want a 100%, full, free, no strings attached, easy button respec. But sorry they are not giving that to you. Saying this feature is bad because its not what you want is nonsense.

You messed up your character, suck it up and reroll normally.

Shade, if you read anything that I or Borrr0 or others said about you will know that a 100% full free no strings attached respec button isnt what we are asking for. So go stuff your superiority complex.

SimVerg
10-13-2009, 07:18 PM
This feature is not in response to any specific request.

You'll need 1.652236842 times the XP to be precise.

3,139,249.9998 xp? Not 3,139,250?

jakeelala
10-13-2009, 07:22 PM
It's not fail because allot of players, like myself think its a cool feature that extends the life of the game for the hardcore players.

The devs fully understand you want a 100%, full, free, no strings attached, easy button respec. But sorry they are not giving that to you. Saying this feature is bad because its not what you want is nonsense.

You messed up your character, suck it up and reroll normally.

No one has asked for that. This is close to trolling.

Borror0
10-13-2009, 07:43 PM
Borrr0
Congratulation. It's the first time that my forum handle has been misspelled in this manner. :p

Well a sr. level producer should come in and offer an answer as to WHY no respec for incorrect levels is being offered.
They probably underestimated the demand for that. It's something the community was (or appeared to be) divided on, after all.

Gol
10-13-2009, 07:56 PM
True Reincarnation is NOT intended as a respec feature. It's merely an option for those who are attracted to the notion of further progressing their characters and not intended for everyone.

I wouldn't recommend using this feature solely to correct a bad multi-class decision.Wow, you guys came out and said it. Not only did you not give us what we asked for, you recommend we not use the only solution given to us. I realize this could be a hint that you're planning on making some other changes as a result of the feedback, but to have not initially planned for it, either? Wow...

I know you're a dev, and so you're just the messenger here, so I'm not at all mad or upset at you, but wow... Talk about fail...

Borror0
10-13-2009, 08:03 PM
Not only did you not give us what we asked for, you recommend we not use the only solution given to us.
He means that, while it's better than rerolling, it's pretty darn hard painful just to fix a bad multiclass. He would not do it, and that is because it was not designed for that purpose. If you think it's worth it, do it. Obviously. But he wouldn't.

I realize this could be a hint that you're planning on making some other changes as a result of the feedback, but to have not initially planned for it, either? Wow...
Yes, it's most likely an hint (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2482886&postcount=17) but why does it comes as a surprise to anyone that it was not planned?

It's not as if the class respec was something the community was unanimous on. When you guys say "you didn't listen to the community", what you actually mean is "you didn't listen to me". Think about it, some people (Quanefel being an example), did not want a class respec.

kingfisher
10-13-2009, 08:20 PM
True Reincarnation is NOT intended as a respec feature. It's merely an option for those who are attracted to the notion of further progressing their characters and not intended for everyone.

I wouldn't recommend using this feature solely to correct a bad multi-class decision.

tru res = the ultimate time sink

rep for having the best dev name tho

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 09:12 PM
Congratulation. It's the first time that my forum handle has been misspelled in this manner. :p


Hey, I only missed one 'o' lol That's what you get while typing with one hand and holding a baby who is also trying to type in the other.

Gol
10-13-2009, 09:18 PM
It's not as if the class respec was something the community was unanimous on. When you guys say "you didn't listen to the community", what you actually mean is "you didn't listen to me". Think about it, some people (Quanefel being an example), did not want a class respec.No, it wasn't unanimous, you're right. The powergamers all* said shut-the-f-up and reroll, and all* the casual players w/o time to reroll begged for it.

all* - greater than 95%, before I'm nitpicked for it.

Missing_Minds
10-13-2009, 09:21 PM
Point to me where they force you to true res.

Oh yeah.. you can't.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 09:29 PM
Point to me where they force you to true res.

Oh yeah.. you can't.

How about instead I point to you when they take something that could have been useful to a large number of players and instead geared it to making a small number of elite players happy?

foxx
10-13-2009, 09:46 PM
How about instead I point to you when they take something that could have been useful to a large number of players and instead geared it to making a small number of elite players happy?





DEFINE usefull/

Quanefel
10-13-2009, 09:48 PM
He means that, while it's better than rerolling, it's pretty darn hard painful just to fix a bad multiclass. He would not do it, and that is because it was not designed for that purpose. If you think it's worth it, do it. Obviously. But he wouldn't.

Yes, it's most likely an hint (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2482886&postcount=17) but why does it comes as a surprise to anyone that it was not planned?

It's not as if the class respec was something the community was unanimous on. When you guys say "you didn't listen to the community", what you actually mean is "you didn't listen to me". Think about it, some people (Quanefel being an example), did not want a class respec.


Whoa, leave me out of this. I want no part of this.

Besides, I was mostly just against all those craptastic ideas for a respec. I look on the bright side, now someone got around to help get everyone's busted up, broke characters the chance to be fixed. I guess when it comes to making a character right, a second or third times a charm? :O

/snarkiness off

The_Ick
10-13-2009, 10:10 PM
True Reincarnation is NOT intended as a respec feature. It's merely an option for those who are attracted to the notion of further progressing their characters and not intended for everyone.

I wouldn't recommend using this feature solely to correct a bad multi-class decision.

Does that mean that there is a respec coming as Kate mentioned in her interview or is this what she was talking about?

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 10:16 PM
DEFINE usefull/

Something helpful and of value. Something they would want to use.

spyderwolf
10-13-2009, 10:26 PM
Something helpful and of value. Something they would want to use.

its something i wanna use on 2 characters to fix them. id much rather level again to 3.1 mil xp than run 40-80 more shrouds to get the cleansings again.

if you have been playing a character for the last 1-3 years and been alright at doing so , then not wanting to relevel shouldnt make a diff, sounds liek some players are angry because they are either A) to lazy to relevel or B) dont feel they have the time to do so. whether yoru A or B shouldnt matter , you have been playing your characters all this time, you can keep playing them the way they are.

dopey69
10-13-2009, 10:33 PM
No, it wasn't unanimous, you're right. The powergamers all* said shut-the-f-up and reroll, and all* the casual players w/o time to reroll begged for it.

all* - greater than 95%, before I'm nitpicked for it.

rep

Uska
10-13-2009, 10:44 PM
Well things like this should have a high price and getting things like former feat shouldnt be free, I was of a mind respecs should have been only allowed to fix changes made by turbine and not be overly costly to the players but ones that allow total changes should be extremely costly and I am not even sure the cost is high enough as it is.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 10:49 PM
its something i wanna use on 2 characters to fix them. id much rather level again to 3.1 mil xp than run 40-80 more shrouds to get the cleansings again.

if you have been playing a character for the last 1-3 years and been alright at doing so , then not wanting to relevel shouldnt make a diff, sounds liek some players are angry because they are either A) to lazy to relevel or B) dont feel they have the time to do so. whether yoru A or B shouldnt matter , you have been playing your characters all this time, you can keep playing them the way they are.

Do the math, you have to grind more than that to earn the extra XP.

spyderwolf
10-14-2009, 12:45 AM
Do the math, you have to grind more than that to earn the extra XP.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z180/spyderwolf6/ScreenShot00030.jpg

umm correct me if im wrong but doesnt the max xp in this screenshot of my pally on lamma who attempted a true reincarnate match up rather well with the xp that madfloyd says we are gonna need?



You'll need 1.652236842 times the XP to be precise.

1,900,000 x 1.652236842 = 3,139,249.998

my pally shows 3,139,250

those 2 numbers match up really really well.

so until you show me a screenshot or something to back up YOUR math dont tell me to re check MY math.

:p

spyderwolf
10-14-2009, 12:52 AM
im saying you can get 3.1 mil xp way way before 40-80 shrouds woulda been completed. thats 4-8 months of time for the shroud vs. a month or less for 3.1 mil xp.


if people are capping 1-20 in under 2 weeks, 1-20 for 3.1 mil is 2.5-5 weeks . way way faster than 4-8 months for 40-80 shrouds . not saying everyone can do so. but xp is way too easy to get to worry about them bumping the xp up. plenty of players i know are gonan be using true reincarnations jsut to save havign to run 80+ shrouds ( 8 months of game time).

pjw
10-14-2009, 01:51 AM
I wouldn't recommend using this feature solely to correct a bad multi-class decision.

Sorry, this may have been answered elsewhere, but what would you recommend for solving a bad multi-class choice?

DragavonBeta
10-14-2009, 01:54 AM
really the exp limitation is the only thing i find that is completly unreasonable in the whole respec system to come .... hope someone over there wakes up and changes it to normal exp progression.

Its not at all unreasonable. If you think levelling up with those XP requirements is too much, do not use TR. Its as simple as that.

You could roll a new char for example ;)

Borror's suggestion is a brilliant one tho :)

sephiroth1084
10-14-2009, 02:28 AM
Great idea.
Dare we hope that this feature (dumping unwanted levels as per Borro's suggestion) will find its way worked into the game sometime soon (no TM, because I want it real-world soon)?!

Quikster
10-14-2009, 02:34 AM
im saying you can get 3.1 mil xp way way before 40-80 shrouds woulda been completed. thats 4-8 months of time for the shroud vs. a month or less for 3.1 mil xp.


if people are capping 1-20 in under 2 weeks, 1-20 for 3.1 mil is 2.5-5 weeks . way way faster than 4-8 months for 40-80 shrouds . not saying everyone can do so. but xp is way too easy to get to worry about them bumping the xp up. plenty of players i know are gonan be using true reincarnations jsut to save havign to run 80+ shrouds ( 8 months of game time).

As much as I hate to do it, I have to agree with spyder to some extent here. BUT its actually even easier in my mind. I push an alt to within 4 levels of cap, then relax. Often if I am leveling, I will play only that alt 90% of the time. Once Im within 4 levels of cap I start rotating through the raids with my alts.

This is even better imo, as all my gear that I would normally grind for and get very little xp will be in the bank waiting for me. No need to grind shroud for shards so I can craft, just go to the bank and pull out your stuff. Sure you lose some tomes, big deal. Very few tomes are going to make or break you, and if they do, grind em out first.

Borror0
10-14-2009, 03:07 AM
No, it wasn't unanimous, you're right. The powergamers all* said shut-the-f-up and reroll, and all* the casual players w/o time to reroll begged for it.

all* - greater than 95%, before I'm nitpicked for it.
Where did you get that number?

+rep for the blunt fact
Made up statistic != Fact

spyderwolf
10-14-2009, 03:14 AM
As much as I hate to do it, I have to agree with spyder to some extent here. BUT its actually even easier in my mind. I push an alt to within 4 levels of cap, then relax. Often if I am leveling, I will play only that alt 90% of the time. Once Im within 4 levels of cap I start rotating through the raids with my alts.

This is even better imo, as all my gear that I would normally grind for and get very little xp will be in the bank waiting for me. No need to grind shroud for shards so I can craft, just go to the bank and pull out your stuff. Sure you lose some tomes, big deal. Very few tomes are going to make or break you, and if they do, grind em out first.

its not even 4 levels anymore quikie. the power level curve is 6 levels now. but in most situations 5 is the cap that works best. and i promise to not diplo on the next set of lowbies :p

woundweaver
10-14-2009, 03:19 AM
It's not fail because allot of players, like myself think its a cool feature that extends the life of the game for the hardcore players.

The devs fully understand you want a 100%, full, free, no strings attached, easy button respec. But sorry they are not giving that to you. Saying this feature is bad because its not what you want is nonsense.

You messed up your character, suck it up and reroll normally.

dude, you should go hide somewhere where the uber people are. i have no use for anyone with an " im better than you attitude". let grownups talk about what matters. lor and borro were making good points, and there always has to be one to start in with "how uber they are" speech. there are great ideas here in the making, and you, sir, are derailing my reading. please go play the game for once, and not the forums if you dont have anything better to do.

bobbryan2
10-14-2009, 03:38 AM
No, it wasn't unanimous, you're right. The powergamers all* said shut-the-f-up and reroll, and all* the casual players w/o time to reroll begged for it.

all* - greater than 95%, before I'm nitpicked for it.

The irony is that my experience in that thread said something different. Powergamers, casual gamers and most any other type of gamers wanted respecs.

There were a few PnP enthusiasts with a couple people that just like to run around yelling, "Easy Button," at every suggestion that said differently.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-14-2009, 06:17 AM
im saying you can get 3.1 mil xp way way before 40-80 shrouds woulda been completed. thats 4-8 months of time for the shroud vs. a month or less for 3.1 mil xp.


if people are capping 1-20 in under 2 weeks, 1-20 for 3.1 mil is 2.5-5 weeks . way way faster than 4-8 months for 40-80 shrouds . not saying everyone can do so. but xp is way too easy to get to worry about them bumping the xp up. plenty of players i know are gonan be using true reincarnations jsut to save havign to run 80+ shrouds ( 8 months of game time).

I was saying that grinding out the extra millionish XP is more in quest grind time than 40-80 shrouds. Say 12,000/quest on average, that's running over 100 quests to get the XP, and that's assuming you can find 100 quests to run that still have 12000 XP in them after levelling up the first 1.9mil xp.

Oh, and most players don't cap in 2 weeks (nor do they have 80 shrouds of course). There is no doubt that is implimentation favors the power gamer and is less useful for the average and casual player.

Wizzly_Bear
10-14-2009, 06:40 AM
just want to say i'm much less interested in true reincarnation now with the substantial xp increase. considering how little xp endgame quests give now (shadow crypt, a level 9 quest STILL gives more xp, especially relative to time to complete, than most endgame level 15+ quests), a 65% increase in required xp per reincarnation is far too steep in my opinion. however, i thought the original guess of 5% was far too low. i think 20-33% would be much more fair, especially considering we really dont gain much from it.

Drfirewater79
10-14-2009, 09:21 AM
No, it wasn't unanimous, you're right. The powergamers all* said shut-the-f-up and reroll, and all* the casual players w/o time to reroll begged for it.

all* - greater than 95%, before I'm nitpicked for it.

re-reolling does nothing for you when you are dual weilding dwarven axe lightning II's and have other shroud items. and where I was a jobless power gammer two years ago i odnt have time to reroll and get all the stupid shroud items especially with the rarity of large drops.


Point to me where they force you to true res.

Oh yeah.. you can't.

Easy if i want to fix my main character who has the most raid loot and wants capstone cause they didnt put in anything other then True Res as an option to fix it or as an option to take my 28 point build to 32 forget about 34 or 36.

that was the force they gave me .... rather then make me reroll and have to do another 400 shrouds to get back my three dual teir weapons and items on my main.


Ermm.. you do realize that Tolero and Tarrant are our Forum Moderators and do not make development decisions regarding the amount of xp we receive ingame right?

yes The terrific T's are the ones who give us good and bad news as passed down from Devs .... I trust Tolero more then most devs when it comes to giving hints or good news and i trust anything tarrant writes will peve me off but at least he writes it.


True Reincarnation is NOT intended as a respec feature. It's merely an option for those who are attracted to the notion of further progressing their characters and not intended for everyone.

I wouldn't recommend using this feature solely to correct a bad multi-class decision.

It may not be intended as a respec feature but it sure as hell seems like the only option ..... not like i am gonna wait another 4 months for a possible respec feature when it will take me less then 4 months to get to a level where i can wear all my raid gear again.

as i said epic fail over all ... but what hurts me the most is that hack is my favor toon so i will have to get him up to 2600+ again so that i can prepare for the next stupid amount of favor for a reward bump you guys do next.


Its not at all unreasonable. If you think levelling up with those XP requirements is too much, do not use TR. Its as simple as that.

You could roll a new char for example ;)

Borror's suggestion is a brilliant one tho :)

again I am gonna use it cause there is no choice given to me to help repair a mistake i made when creating this guy .... I am just angry at needing more exp cause i dont have the time to do a one month lvl to 2o like I would have a couple years ago this being the only option ... I have to take it or continue to have slower attack speed then every other kensai pure fighter in the game .... especially with the nerf to haste and attack speed over all ...

either way i am gonna use the feature to respec

just wish they had thought it out better especially since people have been asking for this kind of thing for oh 3 years now ... maybe not everyone but definatly everyone who didnt want to lose there raid loot for a lousy 4 stat points and repair of one level.

juniorpfactors
10-14-2009, 09:32 AM
Great idea.

please!!!!!!

moorewr
10-14-2009, 10:14 AM
Great idea.

I have to say that the ONE THING I assumed we'd be able to with reincarnation is change our class selection. For example, maybe I want to convert a sorc/pally to a pure sorc, or swap my one bard level on my fighter four two or four paladin levels. That really should be the focus for the next round of features for reincarnation.

Also, it would be a big confidence booster for using this on live if you could fix a failed reincarnation on Lamannia.

Drfirewater79
10-14-2009, 01:32 PM
[IMG] xp that madfloyd says we are gonna need?

1,900,000 x 1.652236842 = 3,139,249.998

my pally shows 3,139,250

those 2 numbers match up really really well.

:p

That is 1,239,249.9998 more exp then before

anyone not think that is steap now?

its 65% more exp (edit* that is 13 levels worth of experience .... that is right you would be doing the equivalent of a shroud ready character to gain a +2 stat oh and by the way you still cant take your stat above its max this way just like 32 point build 18-20 is still the cap per stat)

please madfloyd please tell us [you] think that this is a fair exchange.

lose all your favor all your levels need almost 66% more exp to get back to that level all to just respec your character and gain a lousy 2 stat points ?

please tell me there is another respec feature coming to DDO in mod 10 cause its possible i am just gonna go to another game after hearing this ...we have years of DnD experience and most of us have played many MMO's before ... its not like we dont know what we are talking about ....

this exp thing doesnt do anything for anyone ...

if you already have a 32 point build why would you as a player want to do this all over again to 20 for [a] +2 stat?

[please consider my feedback]

Tolero
10-14-2009, 03:02 PM
I've said this before, but since it's been a while I'll go ahead and post it again:

We value feedback, even passionate feedback and negative feedback. We don't value insults/name calling towards the staff or other players. If your feedback contains insults/name calling, the only person who will be reading it from Turbine is the Gelatinous Cube. The devs are not required to read or post in these forums. Those who do so are taking the opportunity on their own time and interest in the community.

There have been many good points in this thread, and I'd like to see that continue. However, everyone needs to ensure that when they're posting their feedback it follows the forum guidelines.

KoboldKiller
10-14-2009, 03:05 PM
The point is that's the price you pay to do a true reincarnation. It's not like it's some hidden thing, you were told up front what the penalty will be to do this.

Sorry it wasn't the respec YOU wanted but at least it's something.

If you don't like the penalty don't do the reincarnate.

Njhuy
10-14-2009, 03:20 PM
That is 1,239,249.9998 more exp then before

anyone not think that is steap now?



No I think it's too low personally. I was hoping for a higher penalty.

Everyone crying about there not being enough XP in game hasnt done the math. Not to mention we have a new content pack comming in Mod1.


Yes I'm a powergamer, yes I cant wait to grind out a 36 point FvS. Yes I wish it was going to be harder to do.

Gol
10-14-2009, 03:22 PM
Where did you get that number?Just my observation. I claimed ALL, but I didn't want to get nitpicked over it, which you did anyway.

My point stands.

Tolero
10-14-2009, 03:32 PM
The point is that's the price you pay to do a true reincarnation. It's not like it's some hidden thing, you were told up front what the penalty will be to do this.

Sorry it wasn't the respec YOU wanted but at least it's something.

If you don't like the penalty don't do the reincarnate.

Just to be clear... "true reincarnation" isn't meant to be used as a "respec". *coughwinkcoughalludingtostuffcough*

ArkoHighStar
10-14-2009, 03:49 PM
The point is that's the price you pay to do a true reincarnation. It's not like it's some hidden thing, you were told up front what the penalty will be to do this.

Sorry it wasn't the respec YOU wanted but at least it's something.

If you don't like the penalty don't do the reincarnate.

I agree with this somewhat, the overall amount is high but not unsurmountable, its the fact that most of it is in the last 2 or 3 levels makes it harder to swallow, this is where xp is most lacking, right when we will need it the most. If its spread out a bit more it would make levelling less painful, and woudl encourage people to do all quests at level. In this form its a similiar quick run up to 17 and then a long marathon of explorer grinding etc.

ArkoHighStar
10-14-2009, 03:51 PM
Just to be clear... "true reincarnation" isn't meant to be used as a "respec". *coughwinkcoughilludingtostuffcough*

please stop alluding and let us know, if it means there will be superior reincarnation with level respec, or greater is getting it, then someone should just say, hey its not there now, but we are trying to get it in either as part of update 1 or a patch later. That would eliminate 90% of the complaining going on right now re greater and true reincarnation.

The problem righgt now as presented, true reincarnation is the only way to "fix" a level or respec a class, and many think it is a hefty price.

Borror0
10-14-2009, 04:13 PM
Just my observation. I claimed ALL, but I didn't want to get nitpicked over it, which you did anyway.

My point stands.
Your point is that no one opposed respecs which is demonstrably false.

Tolero
10-14-2009, 04:15 PM
please stop alluding and let us know, if it means there will be superior reincarnation with level respec, or greater is getting it, then someone should just say, hey its not there now, but we are trying to get it in either as part of update 1 or a patch later. That would eliminate 90% of the complaining going on right now re greater and true reincarnation.

The problem righgt now as presented, true reincarnation is the only way to "fix" a level or respec a class, and many think it is a hefty price.

Here let me try a more blunt and less fun approach: we'd like to offer this, but it is considerably more complex. This means that I can give you no time frame as to when it will happen, other than to say we're trying.

KoboldKiller
10-14-2009, 04:18 PM
Just to be clear... "true reincarnation" isn't meant to be used as a "respec". *coughwinkcoughalludingtostuffcough*


Ok, true enough but you know what I meant you literal person you. :D

ArkoHighStar
10-14-2009, 04:20 PM
Here let me try a more blunt and less fun approach: we'd like to offer this, but it is considerably more complex. This means that I can give you no time frame as to when it will happen, other than to say we're trying.

thank you, that makes it much clearer, and I am not being sarcastic about it. As a developer myself, I understand how difficult it can be to implement something, but the simple fact that we know it is on the drawing board, means we can plan a little , even if the plan is we have to wait a little while longer.

maddmatt70
10-14-2009, 04:29 PM
Here let me try a more blunt and less fun approach: we'd like to offer this, but it is considerably more complex. This means that I can give you no time frame as to when it will happen, other than to say we're trying.

Thank you, Tolero. For me it means I will wait on reincarnating my bard with the sorc splash and instead reincarnate my paladin with the 2 monk levels because the pally could use the two build points anyway.

jakeelala
10-14-2009, 04:44 PM
Here let me try a more blunt and less fun approach: we'd like to offer this, but it is considerably more complex. This means that I can give you no time frame as to when it will happen, other than to say we're trying.

i don't think this is less fun, I think it's more accurate, specific, and useful for people wondering if they need to resort to a true rez, or hang on and wait for this potential "respec" option.

Thanks for the info.

Tolero
10-14-2009, 04:46 PM
thank you, that makes it much clearer, and I am not being sarcastic about it. As a developer myself, I understand how difficult it can be to implement something, but the simple fact that we know it is on the drawing board, means we can plan a little , even if the plan is we have to wait a little while longer.

Don't get me wrong, I have a bard with a level of fighter I'd like to toy with removing, so I'm looking forward to it as much as anyone...but... I also don't want everyone to start getting their hopes up for it to happen in a particular update only to be sad if it doesn't. There are a LOT of variables when it comes to multiclassing (heck there are enough just with straight classing).

Lorien_the_First_One
10-14-2009, 05:11 PM
Here let me try a more blunt and less fun approach: we'd like to offer this, but it is considerably more complex. This means that I can give you no time frame as to when it will happen, other than to say we're trying.


Don't get me wrong, I have a bard with a level of fighter I'd like to toy with removing, so I'm looking forward to it as much as anyone...but... I also don't want everyone to start getting their hopes up for it to happen in a particular update only to be sad if it doesn't. There are a LOT of variables when it comes to multiclassing (heck there are enough just with straight classing).

Thank you for being blunt. More information is always good :)

What I don't get is while your planned approach might be harder...particularily if you are looking at selective relevelling or level swapping, that isn't the only approach.

How is it harder to make it function exactly like TR except NOT increase your size/build points and leave you on the existing XP progression? I can understand trading levels would be more complex, but a "reroll but keep your equipment" option should be less complex than the code you have already written for TR. What am I missing? Even if you want to offer a "better" approach later, please give us a simple/basic option now :)

Zippo
10-14-2009, 05:17 PM
You messed up your character, suck it up and reroll normally.

I can't completely agree with this statement for one reason alone. The many of people that have made a toon geared it up played it and then 2 months later the devs decide oh wait were going to change....... *This*. What was once a great choice now became and epic mockery because of a tiny little change made.

Borror0
10-14-2009, 05:22 PM
Even if you want to offer a "better" approach later, please give us a simple/basic option now :)
What if they think it's not worth the QA time?

Lorien_the_First_One
10-14-2009, 05:35 PM
Here let me try a more blunt and less fun approach: we'd like to offer this, but it is considerably more complex. This means that I can give you no time frame as to when it will happen, other than to say we're trying.


If they feel X is the better approach and is worth the time it will require, would you still want them to do Y instead simply because it requires less work?

This is an honest question. Not a rhetorical one.

That's a good question. If they think that X will give them a better result AND they think it is doable in a reasonable period of time then I agree, go X and don't waste your time on Y.

If they think that X is better than Y but they have no idea how to make X happen because of the huge number of problems they are seeing and it will be sometime between 6 months and never to get it done... then maybe its a good idea to WAG the time for Y and see if that would make a good solution that would compliment X, make a lot of people happy in the interm, and be guarnteed to be doable in the shorter term.

I haven't seen the code of course, but T has indicated that X seems to be a mess with no clear solution on the horizon and my Y would seem to be easy given that the coding is built into TR already... so in this case, I'd hope they would at least think of Y as a stop gap option if nothing else. More choices means more happy players and more cash for Turbine in the store right?

Now maybe they've already made this call and found out Y is WAY more difficult than I think, if so, that's kool, but I don't get how it could be that hard based on the information we do have so I'd love to hear why.



What if they think it's not worth the QA time?

If its worth the programming time based on the logic above its worth the QA time... I know everything in programming is a tradeoff, I'm just suggesting that they consider a reasonable compromise if the gold plated option might not be available in the forcable future.

Besides, my "Y" option lets you undo everything...complete reroll with equipment. It will always work for everything. Whatever else they decide will always have some limits and thus I think if they code it there will always be people who choose this option.

jakeelala
10-14-2009, 05:38 PM
What if they think it's not worth the QA time?

all they need to do is make true rez keep your tomes and favor and I think people would be VASTLY more happy. Heck, take out the extra build points and new feats to balance it if you want. Even keep the XP scaling to discourage people constantly re rolling the same character.

If they can build raids, puzzles, and new classes, I don't think this would be all that hard.

KoboldKiller
10-14-2009, 05:41 PM
Why should you keep your tomes? Actually I think they are being generous by letting you keep your gear. Your choosing to basically kill your alt to be re-born, you should lose everything.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-14-2009, 05:42 PM
Why should you keep your tomes? Actually I think they are being generous by letting you keep your gear. Your choosing to basically kill your alt to be re-born, you should lose everything.

Um, wouldn't that be what we have now KK?

KoboldKiller
10-14-2009, 05:51 PM
Um, wouldn't that be what we have now KK?

True however they are giving you additional build points which we don't have.

My point however is there should be a penalty for doing something this drastic otherwise what's the point? You should have to decide long and hard if the benefit of doing a true reincarnation is worth what you will lose. Is your alt really that gimped? Is what your going to gain really going to be worth it? Yes you lose the tomes you used but you gain additional points and retain certain aspects of your previous life. There has to be a trade off.

The_Ick
10-14-2009, 05:58 PM
True however they are giving you additional build points which we don't have.

My point however is there should be a penalty for doing something this drastic otherwise what's the point? You should have to decide long and hard if the benefit of doing a true reincarnation is worth what you will lose. Is your alt really that gimped? Is what your going to gain really going to be worth it? Yes you lose the tomes you used but you gain additional points and retain certain aspects of your previous life. There has to be a trade off.

While i aggree that there should be a cost to do this, you have to remember that A LOT of people will need to take advantage of a respec due to no fault of their own.

I can tell you that if the game today where the same game it was when i made the choice to multiclass my ranger or tank, i wouldn't want a respec. I only need it because they have changed the game. Part of that has to be accepted when you play an MMO and that is why i aggree it should cost some TP or farmed material and have a time limite, but not be something completely drastic. Just like changing feats and spells. There should be a cost and a waiting period, but it should have limits.

jakeelala
10-14-2009, 06:17 PM
True however they are giving you additional build points which we don't have.

My point however is there should be a penalty for doing something this drastic otherwise what's the point? You should have to decide long and hard if the benefit of doing a true reincarnation is worth what you will lose. Is your alt really that gimped? Is what your going to gain really going to be worth it? Yes you lose the tomes you used but you gain additional points and retain certain aspects of your previous life. There has to be a trade off.

Um,

Turbine owes this for changing rules and invalidating builds. This is fallacious.

Borror0
10-14-2009, 06:22 PM
If they think that X will give them a better result AND they think it is doable in a reasonable period of time then I agree, go X and don't waste your time on Y.
That is probably what they are thinking. Maybe you or I would disagree if we were in their place but all of us (you, I and them) would be speculating on whether or not it would be so that means very little. They could be wrong like they could be right.

But, let's face it, class respec is important but not urgent. Even if we have to wait 3-4 more months to respec classes, none of us would quit for that.

If its worth the programming time based on the logic above its worth the QA time
No, that's not true. Something could take little programming but a lot of testing.

Sirea
10-14-2009, 06:26 PM
Here let me try a more blunt and less fun approach: we'd like to offer this, but it is considerably more complex. This means that I can give you no time frame as to when it will happen, other than to say we're trying.

Could the devs maybe consider including alignment respec without having to true reincarnate?

You see my Tempest Rogue has seen the error in her Chaotic ways and would like to take a quiet retreat to a monastery up in the mountains to reflect on her new outlook in life instead of waiting for her next life to make amends, if you get my drift :D

Primalhowl
10-14-2009, 06:43 PM
Um,

Turbine owes this [emphasis added] for changing rules and invalidating builds. This is fallacious.

Careful what fallacies you point out, as your argument is clearly based on one as well...

Turbine owes you nothing because it clearly states in the terms that you agreed to follow before playing the game that content and gameplay may change. Changes in rules and invalidated build clearly fall under the heading of "gameplay may change" and as such, you have no grounds for demanding recompense.

Anything Turbine does to allow you to respec is done because they want to please their players, certainly not because they have to do it.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-14-2009, 07:08 PM
That is probably what they are thinking. Maybe you or I would disagree if we were in their place but all of us (you, I and them) would be speculating on whether or not it would be so that means very little. They could be wrong like they could be right.

But, let's face it, class respec is important but not urgent. Even if we have to wait 3-4 more months to respec classes, none of us would quit for that..

I agree totally. If for example Tolero said "the dev team thinks class respec is 3-6 months off but very doable" I'd call that an excellent short timeline and agree it wasn't worth looking at something to distract them. It was Tolero seeming to say "working on it but its complicated so you might get Orcs and druids first" that made me suggest perhaps a quicker solution might be a good thing.

redraider
10-14-2009, 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borror0
If not already in the works, you guys should consider the possibility to add some sort of class level respec to correct bad multiclasses. Either by adding Superior Reincarnation or by adding that to Greater Reincarnation (both options are fine and have their own perk).

The best way that I could see that being done with the tech that was developed for the other Reincarnations is to make the character relevel like with Lesser Reincarnation but leaving us the option to say "No, I don't want this level". This way, there would be a penalty to respec too many class levels (you would have to regain the levels back) but it is not as hard as it would be to use True Reincarnation or reroll to fix the character's flaw.





Great idea.


This is exactly what we need. Full stop. Thread over. Thanks for your time!

Borror0
10-14-2009, 07:35 PM
If for example Tolero said "the dev team thinks class respec is 3-6 months off but very doable" I'd call that an excellent short timeline
Maybe that would be good to mention before suggesting them to put a hack together while they work on the real solution? ;)

You know, so they know what the playerbase feels is an acceptable delay.

It was Tolero seeming to say "working on it but its complicated so you might get Orcs and druids first"
It does not read that way to me. I find it interesting that you read it in the way that assumes incompetence on their part while I read it in the way that assumes that they took the time to evaluate the time required to put the real solution together and decided whether or not a temporary solution was necessary.

pjw
10-14-2009, 08:15 PM
Here let me try a more blunt and less fun approach: we'd like to offer this, but it is considerably more complex.

If it makes it any easier, just give us a version of TR without the bonuses, that can be taken at any level, and which has no XP penalty. (Edit: and let me keep my tomes).

I'd probably enjoy levelling my Clr16/Ftr1 back up to Clr20, if I only have to do it once with no penalty (and don't have to get to 20 first).

woundweaver
10-15-2009, 01:44 AM
Here let me try a more blunt and less fun approach: we'd like to offer this, but it is considerably more complex. This means that I can give you no time frame as to when it will happen, other than to say we're trying.

most fair answer, tolero. the straightest answer ive seen in awhile. you, ma'am, get some rep.

Jendrak
10-15-2009, 02:03 AM
Here let me try a more blunt and less fun approach: we'd like to offer this, but it is considerably more complex. This means that I can give you no time frame as to when it will happen, other than to say we're trying.

HOLY ****!!!!!!!! A STRAIGHT ANSWER FROM SOMEONE!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:D

Now i gotta check the weather channel and see if hell froze over


p.s. thanks for the heads up. Now people can't say your not working on it.

Riggs
10-15-2009, 02:04 AM
Question then, what feature would you use for a bad multi-class decision since lesser and greater reincarnation wont allow any change or removal of class choice??

Just a note your comment of bad multi-class decision implys player error that needs correcting. When many (Not all of course) are stating game changes made after the fact are fueling the desire for a respec mechanism.

Ding.

woundweaver
10-15-2009, 02:56 AM
im perfectly happy waiting for the solution for respeccing, even if it takes a few months. i wont want to reincarnate until after i respec, and relevel the toon. i would rather it work correctly, instead of buggy. ill wait as long as it takes, as long as content continues to be delivered. but for the most part, i knew right away TR was a form of progression, not respecccing. and once again, thanks again for the direct answer,tolero. i love the blunt direct approach. it saves misdirected questions, and misguided answers.

Riggs
10-15-2009, 03:29 AM
Don't get me wrong, I have a bard with a level of fighter I'd like to toy with removing, so I'm looking forward to it as much as anyone...but... I also don't want everyone to start getting their hopes up for it to happen in a particular update only to be sad if it doesn't. There are a LOT of variables when it comes to multiclassing (heck there are enough just with straight classing).

As said, people looking for information are not looking for 'fun answers - but truthful answers...

It seems like it would not be very difficult at all if the mechanism for greater and true reincarnation are already made - just make a 'respec' reinc, that grants all your xp like greater, and like true reinc, you just level up from 1-20 with a trainer however you want - but you get no build points and no extra feats - you just get to remake the character to 'fix' what was wrong.

Mainly because the game so much that builds that worked 2 years ago dont work now - and as one dev said 'fixing mistakes multiclassing' is blaming players, when it wasnt the players that changed the game every 2 mods now is it?

A huge xp cost to get back to 20 is really punishing on top of having to level all over again anyway for a measly 2 build points - as True Reincarnation is the only actual 'respec' option available, and also given the ....lets say low xp in Mod 9. (Level 14 quests giving more xp than level 19 quests doesnt seem wrong to anyone at Turbine? and there are more of them?)

Daigaioh
10-15-2009, 04:05 AM
I got a really easy fix to your xp reroll woes. Earn some Pots of XP(collect dragon shards or buy them on weekend lightling sales from the DDO store.) and use the +10% bonus to counter the loss. or START wearing yer voice of the master. Oh look xp loss netigated.

they gave you an in game boost permanently from the voice. use it.

Natashaelle
10-15-2009, 05:01 AM
No Store in Europe, but good ideas there for US players. And :


... or START wearing yer voice of the master. Oh look xp loss netigated.

they gave you an in game boost permanently from the voice. use it.

Personally I'll be double-TRing my main, but I don't anticipate any _serious_ XP accrual difficulties til after about mid-level after the *second* TR ;)

FluffyCalico
10-15-2009, 05:13 AM
or START wearing yer voice of the master. Oh look xp loss netigated.

they gave you an in game boost permanently from the voice. use it.

Last time I checked voice of the master did not give you 1.6 times as much xp. the 5% is esponetial so it does not =5% (think compound interest) It actually comes out to about 60% more xp needed.

SirShen
10-15-2009, 07:04 AM
You dont get less xp in quests. You just have to get more xp to level.

Level 2 normal character is 5000 - True res you have to get 5,250
Level 3 normal character is 20,000 - True res you have to get 21,750
Level 4 normal character is 50,000 - True res you have to get 56,250
Level 5 normal character is 90,000 - True res you have to get 104,250

zealous
10-15-2009, 07:12 AM
Here let me try a more blunt and less fun approach: we'd like to offer this, but it is considerably more complex. This means that I can give you no time frame as to when it will happen, other than to say we're trying.
Can I take a guess?
Can I?

ahurrrm

When you need to level up you go see a trainer for the class you need.

Talking with a trainer will check your char rank and level to see if you are eligible to level up. Further, the trainer will check your alignment to see if you are eligible for the class.

Now as trainers are done they can fetch the "stuff" for a level of a class. Class matching the type specific to the trainer, more on that later.

Now since levelups needs to be atomic and since due to various issues accessing a char directly in the database manually is problematic, see cost for server transfer, it must never ever go wrong. The only information that is kept from your previous level is what level it was, everything else is replaced with the new stats.

Now true reinc is fairly simple as it basicly wipes your character clean. Keeping the equipment is simply moving them from your inventory to someplace else, i.e. one table to another.

Lesser/Greater reincarnation isn't that difficult either. They simply added a trainer with the checks for eligibility replaced with checks for not being a higher level than the maximum level of your previous life. The trainer knowing what class to fetch is no longer based upon the type of the trainer but based upon the temporarily stored level progression of your pre-reincarnation self.

Now the problems they are having is probably related to what happens if the data for the previous life is lost.


This is trickier because of some of the alignment restrictions on classes. Like if you were readjusting the skills on your paladin and decided "hmm say now I want to be chaotic"...the universe implodes.

True Reincarnation will allow you to change your alignment though.
This is why we can't respec one level/change alignment. Due to the complexity of the level up procedure, i.e. fail checks etc., the way they removed the checks for having enough xp was to remove all the checks, including alignment. thus while they could in theory not have one trainer based upon your previous life but instead one trainer for each class you would be able to make a chaotic paladin or a paladin bard...and the universe would implode, we don't want the universe to implode...yet.

What they could do is to have a area with trainers from each class and 20 "dungeons" with solo difficulty only, each containing a single room with the objective to pick up the "elixir of past life" and the xp completion equal to the xp required to get to the next level. Now the problem with this is that they'd have to add some flagging mechanism with NPC dialogues to make sure you can't enter the get to level20 dungeon on your lvl1 char. It would also require an additional 40 dungeons for once/twice true incarnated characters...not to mention if that kind of unpolished content would have a place in a AAA game...

Another option would be for the lesser/reincarnation NPC to have a dialogue where you explicitly specify each level you want to retain, now this would be problematic since you would want it to be atomic which might not be possible. Also generating a "modified copy" of your level progression might not be entirely trivial.

or something like that ;)

Lorien_the_First_One
10-15-2009, 07:43 AM
Maybe that would be good to mention before suggesting them to put a hack together while they work on the real solution? ;)

You know, so they know what the playerbase feels is an acceptable delay.

Well I used "reasonable" in my original comment because everyone will have a different number there... In my mind its in the next mod...maybe even 2...depending how far away those are planned. The big key though is if they are working on it and a solution is possible and in the works there is less justification for another approach. However, if such a gold plated version is comming, it would be BRILLANT for them to share those plans with us now in the early stages so that we can comment on it in the conceptual stage and after 6 months of hard coding work we don't get whiny and say "but you missed the point" later.



It does not read that way to me. I find it interesting that you read it in the way that assumes incompetence on their part while I read it in the way that assumes that they took the time to evaluate the time required to put the real solution together and decided whether or not a temporary solution was necessary.

No, I absolutely didn't mean to infer incompetence. I think that by and large this game demonstrates some quality work. Disagreeing with some decisions doesn't mean I don't have respect for the great work the DDO devs do for this game and the obvious dedication they have for it. While I do something say the devs in my opinion missed the boat on issue A or B I never doubt they have the best intensions and efforts for this game.

What worries me in what she said was "we'd like to offer this". Not "we will" but "we'd like to", which I read to mean that there is no guarentee they can make it work given the complexities she mentioned. Also "we're trying" not "its being coding but it will take a few weeks/months" seemed to be fairly negative wording. I believe her, they are trying, I'm sure they have good people on it, but sometimes the variable or database structure you created in the first 2000 builds make it difficult to add feature X to a program even though in theory its a brilliant idea. I fear they might be at such a wall. Maybe I've being overly negative and reading too much into it... but given the fact Turbine is usually overly optimistic hearing negative scares me :o

My comments were also because in my experience dealing with programmers they can be very focussed individuals who tend to look for the best solution and are intent on getting that solution working as per their vision. Programmers are such dedicated types that sometimes they don't step back from that "best solution" and look at the customer needs statement again to see if there is another approach that could bypass their current roadblock. Another common problem is programmers sometimes get distant from end users and miss what is actually being asked for, usually by going over the top with great features that they like but which may be more than customer need. That's why frequent returns to talk to the end users and not just relying on initial customer needs assesments is best practice.

I just want to make sure they have thought about that simplier solution as a replacement, stop gap, or compliment to whatever they are planning. Heck, look at the threads that ask simply for an alignment change feature. That's shouild be a very quick coding exercise and I could definately see that being a big seller in the store.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-15-2009, 07:46 AM
You dont get less xp in quests. You just have to get more xp to level.

Level 2 normal character is 5000 - True res you have to get 5,250
Level 3 normal character is 20,000 - True res you have to get 21,750
Level 4 normal character is 50,000 - True res you have to get 56,250
Level 5 normal character is 90,000 - True res you have to get 104,250

Just so you know those tiny differences are just at low level. The difference is painfully large at high levels. In total you need something like 161% of the normal XP to cap after the first TR and I believe its about 300% for capping after the second TR.

nytewolf
10-15-2009, 08:15 AM
Just had a thought of an idea to make respec easier. How about adjusting the code regarding experience over level blockage (As in remove the limit) So when a character reincarnates he keeps his current experience but everything resets to 1st level and have the respec area have a trainer for each class present so the character can move between trainers to get what classes he desires.

Or for that matter why not just offer the True reincarnate without the bonuses or penalty option.

TommyBoy
10-15-2009, 08:44 AM
so you need more exp to level that is BS either way you look at it

5% might not seem like much but take it over 20 levels

that is 100 bubbles/ranks

which means we need to do 21 levels worth of exp (5 ranks more) to respec a character as well as lose all our tomes and favor.



You can skip lvl1 to lvl4 at five get the voice now your earning the correct xp. Look Doc sacrificing a hand full of tomes sucks but I am pretty sure the xp thing is because of the carry over feats. Plus look at it like this as soon as you hit lvl12 you get all your shroud items back.

Thriand
10-15-2009, 10:04 AM
You can skip lvl1 to lvl4 at five get the voice now your earning the correct xp. Look Doc sacrificing a hand full of tomes sucks but I am pretty sure the xp thing is because of the carry over feats. Plus look at it like this as soon as you hit lvl12 you get all your shroud items back.

First of all you can't skip levels 1-4 on a true reincarnation, and the xp penalty turns out to be about 65% more overall to get to level 20 which is most definitely not covered by the voice or even the voice and the 20% xp pots combined.

spifflove
10-15-2009, 10:23 AM
The devs are not required to read or post in these forums. Those who do so are taking the opportunity on their own time and interest in the community.


Some of you need to read this again:)

Lorien_the_First_One
10-15-2009, 10:40 AM
Some of you need to read this again:)

Yup...good to remember. And I hope that they know that even when we argue with them, most of us understand that they are a dedicated bunch who care about the game.

Tolero
10-15-2009, 10:59 AM
Something could take little programming but a lot of testing.

Very accurate. We can do anything... but it's then a question of: if by doing that, do we break people unexpectedly?

I often hear players compliment us on the countless ways you can customize your character's build. This same pro is a con when it comes to implementing new features. Nothing is ever as simple as applying a blanket solution. We need to make sure that a feature isn't going to break every level 3 female elf, or every chaotic neutral character, or every 28 point dwarf, or every warforged wearing a pink docent, or every monk on the path of light, the list goes on and on. Anything that involves people's characters - because there are so many different kinds of you - is delicate territory that must be carefully worked over, and even then, we may miss things.

On a non-sequitor speaking of broken characters... today's update to Lamannia should correct issues with lesser and greater reincarnation. If you were in a broken state, you should be able to use the reincarnate button again. Please let us know if this does not correct the error screen issue.

moorewr
10-15-2009, 11:01 AM
On a non-sequitor speaking of broken characters... today's update to Lamannia should correct issues with lesser and greater reincarnation. If you were in a broken state, you should be able to use the reincarnate button again. Please let us know if this does not correct the error screen issue.

Awesome. I will try this when I get home tonight.

Zyklon
10-15-2009, 11:19 AM
I would think that if you have a old 28-point build with raid loot and is level 20. Then True Reincarnation is a much better choice than rolling up a new character (I have my first character still, a 28 point cleric I will be Reincarnating). You get to keep all that bound to character loot. Which most is insanely low min level. It's even better if you start planning your build now. Get that loot you will want/need. Nothing like using full shroud crafted items at lvl 11-12.
Farm the bound loot for use on a new build now.
Requiring extra XP - I'll take that trade off.

Plus, who doesn't want to be "bigger"! :)

-

KoboldKiller
10-15-2009, 11:22 AM
Plus, who doesn't want to be "bigger"! :)

-


Size doesn't matter. :cool:

Wildseed
10-15-2009, 12:01 PM
there is a full exp for true reincarnation, first time and second time, chart on this forum page:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206593

Borror0
10-15-2009, 12:16 PM
Maybe I've being overly negative and reading too much into it...
I think that has some truth. Yesterday, you were far more negative than your usual self.

As for the rest of your post, I don't disagree with most of what you said. It's good to remind them, investigate, offer alternatives, etc. However, that's totally not how you came across to me. About any sentence that starts by "what I don't get" and does not have something around the lines of "Would you mind explaining me?" or "What am I not getting?" is going to sound insulting or come off as condescending as it sounds as if you think they're missing something obvious.

Drfirewater79
10-15-2009, 12:21 PM
Very accurate. We can do anything... but it's then a question of: if by doing that, do we break people unexpectedly?
.

I dont really see how not offering a respec breaks people?

I dont see how offering true reincarnation with the high price fixes people?

I only really understand the whole thing as a way to get from 28 point build to 34 point build ...after that its pretty pointless in my mind

28-34 is 6 stat points .... as much as i hate it (AND LET ME NOT GET STARTED ON HOW MUCH I HATE IT AGAIN!!!!) I have really no choice but to do it on my last remaining 28 point character. But why in the world would i do it again for a lousy 2 more stat points?

You want to say its for the grinders ????? You want to say its for people to live there characters lives longer????? that seems a little broken to me.

yes it will be nice to sit at lvl 12 with shroud weapons sure .... but it wasnt that hard beating lvl 12 missions (isnt desert and titan prep the only missions in this area really ... give or take a few) with holy pure good scimitar on my str FvS.

So you guys complain we are over powered but then you implament something where we can be super over powered for longer periods of time cause it takes forever to get the exp..... not sounding broken yet?

personally if I where you guys i would have worked out respec before offering true reincarnation ..... cause right now ... especially tier two .... sounds like a waste of time to do that much work for +2 to your stats ...

what does +2 stats do .... if your already capped on your highest important stat (str or dex for to hit or cha or int or wis for caster dc's) there really isnt much else to do with the stat points

throwing 2 more into con is gonna net you what 50 more hps at lvl 20? while on a low hp character that might be worth alot but for 80% of the not gimped characters due to bad level choice .... its not gonna help much .... my fighter for instance who is pure and a 32 point build .... dont see the point of taking 2 or 4 more stat points cause an ac lower then mid-high 50's doesnt matter at high levels so starting with highest possible str and con as is means i would have 2-4 more stat points that get thrown into what ... int for skill points i dont need and havent gimped my character thus far?

I would understand the insane exp increase if there was a reasonable reward but 2 stat points isnt a reward worth the trip

its literally for the people who have nothing better to do with there lives ... and maybe also a way for turbine to sell more exp pots.

personally if you got rid of this silly true reincarnation and added a respec feature that let me make my 28 point build a 32 point build and replace the unwanted level for 10$ in turbine points .... even if i had to start all over from lvl 1 if the exp was the same and the counters where reset it would be cool .


I have a question .... after you reincarnate and your counters are reset do they still go up every time you beat a mission?

if so then i sure hope there is a ton of exp in new quests for higher levels cause its likely that most 2nd time reincarnaters will be yelling worse profanities then i did when they hit lvl 17 and cannot level using at lvl missions and are having a hard time getting exp from missions in aramath cause they getting owned and vale already capped out ....

there isnt enough missions at mid to high levels to not expect people to have to repeat stuff endlessly and that is what increases the hate for lack of content ... while yes it will be a cake walk to level to lvl 10 even with 300% increase cause there is lots of content ... there is a supream lack of content in the 10-14 area and it starts going down from there.

Borror0
10-15-2009, 12:25 PM
I dont really see how not offering a respec breaks people?
I think you're not realizing the context of what she was replying to.

Elsbet
10-15-2009, 12:31 PM
Very accurate. We can do anything... but it's then a question of: if by doing that, do we break people unexpectedly?

I often hear players compliment us on the countless ways you can customize your character's build. This same pro is a con when it comes to implementing new features. Nothing is ever as simple as applying a blanket solution. We need to make sure that a feature isn't going to break every level 3 female elf, or every chaotic neutral character, or every 28 point dwarf, or every warforged wearing a pink docent, or every monk on the path of light, the list goes on and on. Anything that involves people's characters - because there are so many different kinds of you - is delicate territory that must be carefully worked over, and even then, we may miss things.

On a non-sequitor speaking of broken characters... today's update to Lamannia should correct issues with lesser and greater reincarnation. If you were in a broken state, you should be able to use the reincarnate button again. Please let us know if this does not correct the error screen issue.


I'm sure my company would be happy to send you my billable rates. ;) They do seem to like overbooking my available hours. I think I might enjoy testing this game way more than I like testing payroll.

KoboldKiller
10-15-2009, 12:36 PM
I'm sure my company would be happy to send you my billable rates. ;) They do seem to like overbooking my available hours. I think I might enjoy testing this game way more than I like testing payroll.

I could post some pics for you if you'd like. :D

Drfirewater79
10-15-2009, 12:41 PM
I think you're not realizing the context of what she was replying to.

no I do I am simply refering to the lack of the respec option that they talked about in interviews and what not .... in the plane fact that they are not being implemented in update 1 while these other forms of Respec which don't meet the true need of the community who have been looking for a way to remove levels for 3+ years now and the almost bi-monthly threads asking for respec feature ....

.... Not all need or want it I understand ... not all need or want this feature either but no one asked for this one they did ask for the other.

saying that things dont get added cause they want to avoid breaking people is all fine and good .... but saying that this in anyway explains why they decided to add this unothodox method of respec and didnt come up with any way possible to do what people have been asking for is silly and broken unto itself ....

I totally understand that to some people 4 dump stat points is worth there time and energy and stress ... and i wish them all the fun DDO has to offer them and good luck leveling ...

but personally i think releasing this kind of option without launching a respec option is a failed idea.

I would rather them hold off and launch true reincarnation in update 2 and respec at the same time .. it makes more sense.

Saying that its not forcing anyone to use the feature ... especially those who have a 28 point build who is all decked out with raid gear ... is silly cause it could be 4-10 months before update 2 and no promise that update 2 will have respec feature.

so what turbine is saying here is ......

we dont care what you want .... we only want you to have a reason to spend more then 15$ a month on the game cause atari screwed up marketing for the last three years and we dont have enough paying customers as is right now..... we will have another mod out quickly cause we had a year to work on it while delaying the last mod and its possible you wont see anything else for another year after this ... but it doesnt matter cause it will take you that long to lvl back up to 20 x2 on your 10+ characters anyway ... and no we dont expect you to get sick of the content after running every mission we have 5+ times for exp cause it means you will have to buy exp pots and by then we will have something new for you to do.

...at least thats how i read it .... but my eyes are bad these days so who knows maybe i am wrong and turbine really are all saints and ... really do care and just messed up this one time ......

not like they have a known track record of ****ing off the player base at every turn and endless delays for months on end .......

Zyklon
10-15-2009, 12:43 PM
I have really no choice but to do it on my last remaining 28 point character.

No choice?
You don't "have" to reincarnate any character.


-

KoboldKiller
10-15-2009, 12:45 PM
no I do I am simply refering to the lack of the respec option that they talked about in interviews and what not .... in the plane fact that they are not being implemented in update 1 while these other forms of Respec which don't meet the true need of the community who have been looking for a way to remove levels for 3+ years now and the almost bi-monthly threads asking for respec feature ....

.... Not all need or want it I understand ... not all need or want this feature either but no one asked for this one they did ask for the other.

saying that things dont get added cause they want to avoid breaking people is all fine and good .... but saying that this in anyway explains why they decided to add this unothodox method of respec and didnt come up with any way possible to do what people have been asking for is silly and broken unto itself ....

I totally understand that to some people 4 dump stat points is worth there time and energy and stress ... and i wish them all the fun DDO has to offer them and good luck leveling ...

but personally i think releasing this kind of option without launching a respec option is a failed idea.

I would rather them hold off and launch true reincarnation in update 2 and respec at the same time .. it makes more sense.

Saying that its not forcing anyone to use the feature ... especially those who have a 28 point build who is all decked out with raid gear ... is silly cause it could be 4-10 months before update 2 and no promise that update 2 will have respec feature.

so what turbine is saying here is ......

we dont care what you want .... we only want you to have a reason to spend more then 15$ a month on the game cause atari screwed up marketing for the last three years and we dont have enough paying customers as is right now..... we will have another mod out quickly cause we had a year to work on it while delaying the last mod and its possible you wont see anything else for another year after this ... but it doesnt matter cause it will take you that long to lvl back up to 20 x2 on your 10+ characters anyway ... and no we dont expect you to get sick of the content after running every mission we have 5+ times for exp cause it means you will have to buy exp pots and by then we will have something new for you to do.

...at least thats how i read it .... but my eyes are bad these days so who knows maybe i am wrong and turbine really are all saints and ... really do care and just messed up this one time ......

not like they have a known track record of ****ing off the player base at every turn and endless delays for months on end .......


Except they did give you a way to respec just not in the way you wanted, so yes, in a way they did address something the community asked for

Borror0
10-15-2009, 01:01 PM
I would rather them hold off and launch true reincarnation in update 2 and respec at the same time .. it makes more sense.
If you want to True Reincarnate now, do it. If you want to respec class levels, wait and do it when they add whatever they're working on.

woundweaver
10-15-2009, 01:06 PM
Very accurate. We can do anything... but it's then a question of: if by doing that, do we break people unexpectedly?

I often hear players compliment us on the countless ways you can customize your character's build. This same pro is a con when it comes to implementing new features. Nothing is ever as simple as applying a blanket solution. We need to make sure that a feature isn't going to break every level 3 female elf, or every chaotic neutral character, or every 28 point dwarf, or every warforged wearing a pink docent, or every monk on the path of light, the list goes on and on. Anything that involves people's characters - because there are so many different kinds of you - is delicate territory that must be carefully worked over, and even then, we may miss things.

On a non-sequitor speaking of broken characters... today's update to Lamannia should correct issues with lesser and greater reincarnation. If you were in a broken state, you should be able to use the reincarnate button again. Please let us know if this does not correct the error screen issue.

damn....i love the bluntness. can you take my rep off raid timer so i can give you another point?? keep it up, t!!

Dcloak
10-15-2009, 02:13 PM
On a non-sequitor speaking of broken characters... today's update to Lamannia should correct issues with lesser and greater reincarnation. If you were in a broken state, you should be able to use the reincarnate button again. Please let us know if this does not correct the error screen issue.

My character used the greater reincarnate a few days ago when the update first came out and is still in a broken state (Level 1 without any loot). I don't have a reincarnate button anymore. I talked to my trainer and says i don't have enough xp. I went to Kruz and I have to wait 21 hours to use reincarnate again.

ddoer
10-15-2009, 04:32 PM
What i want is an answer from Eladrin Tolero or Tarant on why they feel this is need after already raping our characters of all +2-4 tomes will they continue to fustrate us with slower leveling?



You'll need 1.652236842 times the XP to be precise.


tru res = the ultimate time sink

agree with the OP about slower leveling in the 2nd life.

it makes more sense to be 1.65 times faster in leveling up because with the past life experience, we learn faster. But the system just go to the opposite way.

Why the devs should punish the hardcore players? They have put efforts to level up to 20 already, and now, for 2 extra ability points (and an option of a worthless feat), you ask them to sux their time to get another 3M XP. Would you guess how many players will get frustrated to repeat the quests again and again to obtain the required xp and then get frustrated and leave the game?

if you want to discourage people to use the system, why bother to create it at first? please reward player for making progress, but not to punish them.

Borror0
10-15-2009, 04:40 PM
it makes more sense to be 1.65 times faster in leveling up because with the past life experience, we learn faster. But the system just go to the opposite way.
Exactly. Additionally, having to regain levels is already bothersome but having to do at a slower pace is discouraging.

Of course, I'll have to see how it plays but I have the feeling it would be more enjoyable if it was faster rather than slower.

Hafeal
10-15-2009, 04:47 PM
it makes more sense to be 1.65 times faster in leveling up because with the past life experience, we learn faster. But the system just go to the opposite way.

Perhaps your past life inhibits your ability to learn because of previous perceptions, habits, notions, etc. It is not a clean slate so to speak. I believe it is one reason why children are sponges for learning new things and adults, not so much.

Drfirewater79
10-15-2009, 04:59 PM
agree with the OP about slower leveling in the 2nd life.

it makes more sense to be 1.65 times faster in leveling up because with the past life experience, we learn faster. But the system just go to the opposite way.

if you want to discourage people to use the system, why bother to create it at first? please reward player for making progress, but not to punish them.


Exactly. Additionally, having to regain levels is already bothersome but having to do at a slower pace is discouraging.

Of course, I'll have to see how it plays but I have the feeling it would be more enjoyable if it was faster rather than slower.

yeah that is my point exactly ....

when i came up with the idea that seems to be fairly close to what they are doing

I said why not make a respec that involved you to go back to lvl 1 and get to keep all your raid loot and tomes.

the "PUNISHMENT" for the respec was going back to lvl 1

but instead it seems that they want us to do all this work for a lousy +2 x2
for gaining 9.5 million exp

that seems insainly silly to me

I dont know why they dont just lower the amount even

I think i wouldnt be so discouraged if first time was 1.25 and second time was 1.50

its still stupid but its less stupid then 1.65 and 2.30

Borror0
10-15-2009, 05:00 PM
Perhaps your past life inhibits your ability to learn because of previous perceptions, habits, notions, etc.
That would make sense if you took a path that is different and had to break old habits or challenge previous conceptions.

Since it's possible to learn the very same path, that's a poor justification.

KoboldKiller
10-15-2009, 05:05 PM
*bah

Borror0
10-15-2009, 05:06 PM
Umm, nobody says you HAVE to do it.
Nobody ask for our feedback either! Oh, wait...

KoboldKiller
10-15-2009, 05:09 PM
The point is there should be some penalty for doing this to your alt, otherwise what's the deterrent?

Thriand
10-15-2009, 05:19 PM
The point is there should be some penalty for doing this to your alt, otherwise what's the deterrent?

I guess it was silly of me to think of losing 3085 favor and 6 +3 tomes as a deterrent

I mean I'll be doing it no matter what, but they could scale the xp penalty back quite a large amount and there would still be plenty of deterrent for most people

Borror0
10-15-2009, 05:26 PM
The point is there should be some penalty for doing this to your alt, otherwise what's the deterrent?
Why should there be a deterrent at all? To prevent DDO from becoming too fun (which, as we all know, would cause a breach in the space continuum and doom us all)?

Hafeal
10-15-2009, 05:30 PM
That would make sense if you took a path that is different and had to break old habits or challenge previous conceptions.

Since it's possible to learn the very same path, that's a poor justification.

Fair enough and your previous point about the "fun" factor is well taken. He had asked for some logical basis, so that was the one that came to my mind.

Borror0
10-15-2009, 05:44 PM
Fair enough and your previous point about the "fun" factor is well taken. He had asked for some logical basis, so that was the one that came to my mind.
Their justification probably was "Let's make this more painful so that it's somewhat on par with rerolling so that players think twice about using this to respec their fighter into a sorcerer." However, I don't really see a problem with that; players will still roll alts so that they can play multiple characters at one time. While you will get that player respeccing his mule to a totally different class, the game will not crash because of that. From a lore perspective, the character is being reincarnated so that's fine as well.

What does matter, however, is if it feels too grindy. Considering the small amount of content in DDO, having to pass through it three times per character (and the two others times are a slower pace than the first one) will most likely feel grindy.

Wizzly_Bear
10-15-2009, 05:46 PM
Very accurate. We can do anything... but it's then a question of: if by doing that, do we break people unexpectedly?

I often hear players compliment us on the countless ways you can customize your character's build. This same pro is a con when it comes to implementing new features. Nothing is ever as simple as applying a blanket solution. We need to make sure that a feature isn't going to break every level 3 female elf, or every chaotic neutral character, or every 28 point dwarf, or every warforged wearing a pink docent, or every monk on the path of light, the list goes on and on. Anything that involves people's characters - because there are so many different kinds of you - is delicate territory that must be carefully worked over, and even then, we may miss things.

On a non-sequitor speaking of broken characters... today's update to Lamannia should correct issues with lesser and greater reincarnation. If you were in a broken state, you should be able to use the reincarnate button again. Please let us know if this does not correct the error screen issue.
what if we cant get into Lammania and have yet to receive any assistance?
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=207552


Size doesn't matter. :cool:
only "halflings" and their moms say that


there is a full exp for true reincarnation, first time and second time, chart on this forum page:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206593
awesome, thanks

Borror0
10-15-2009, 05:47 PM
only "halflings" and their moms say that
The mom part is false.

Wizzly_Bear
10-15-2009, 05:49 PM
Perhaps your past life inhibits your ability to learn because of previous perceptions, habits, notions, etc. It is not a clean slate so to speak. I believe it is one reason why children are sponges for learning new things and adults, not so much.
actually no. children learn more readily than adults because they have an excessive growth of dendrites that have yet to be trimmed off. any that are not used sluff off and therefore to develop those skills later in life becomes more challenging than if they were learned as a child.

ddoer
10-15-2009, 06:21 PM
The point is there should be some penalty for doing this to your alt, otherwise what's the deterrent?


I guess it was silly of me to think of losing 3085 favor and 6 +3 tomes as a deterrent


I guess i am more silly to think I'll have to lose 1,900,000 xp.

And as the xp curse is so steep, I'll have to level up run with "no noobs" groups only instead of helping the newbies on the way of leveling.

moorewr
10-15-2009, 06:36 PM
On a non-sequitor speaking of broken characters... today's update to Lamannia should correct issues with lesser and greater reincarnation. If you were in a broken state, you should be able to use the reincarnate button again. Please let us know if this does not correct the error screen issue.

This did not work for me - my character (Aesahaettr) did not show the reincarnate button by his name; when I log him in he is still on the Heart of Wind and unable to level up with the Level Up Lady.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-15-2009, 07:53 PM
I think that has some truth. Yesterday, you were far more negative than your usual self.

As for the rest of your post, I don't disagree with most of what you said. It's good to remind them, investigate, offer alternatives, etc. However, that's totally not how you came across to me. About any sentence that starts by "what I don't get" and does not have something around the lines of "Would you mind explaining me?" or "What am I not getting?" is going to sound insulting or come off as condescending as it sounds as if you think they're missing something obvious.

Ya, I think MF's "well it isn't supposed to be a repec mech and this wasn't in response to player requests" that got me into a ****y mood. Tolero's additional information really helped (I wish MF had just added "but we are working on that") but the mood was there... I had been so excited about turning my slightly gimped 1st DDO char into something new and that reply really got me going by its apparent lack of caring about the player base.

*sigh* geek rage at work...

Lorien_the_First_One
10-15-2009, 07:55 PM
If you want to True Reincarnate now, do it. If you want to respec class levels, wait and do it when they add whatever they're working on.

Agreed....except I wish they would tell us what they are trying to do for the gold plated respec plan in the works... It would help people make a more informed choice if they should TR now, or wait to do the new thing in mod 2/3/whenever

Lorien_the_First_One
10-15-2009, 07:57 PM
The point is there should be some penalty for doing this to your alt, otherwise what's the deterrent?

Why would you need a deterent to doing something fun in a game? But even if you think you did, even reearning the original 1.9mil XP would be a significant thing.

Borror0
10-15-2009, 07:59 PM
Why would you need a deterent to doing something fun in a game?
I already explained why. If DDO gets any more fun, it could create a breach in the space continuum and doom us all.

Just to be sure, we should also remove Grease from the game. That can lead to too many fun situations. That's just asking for trouble to leave it there.

moorewr
10-15-2009, 08:03 PM
I already explained why. If DDO gets any more fun, it could create a breach in the space continuum and doom us all.

Just to be sure, we should also remove Grease from the game. That can lead to too many fun situations. That's just asking for trouble to leave it there.

ha ha! I almost broke my "Borror0 already has too much rep" rule for this one. :p

Lorien_the_First_One
10-15-2009, 08:14 PM
I already explained why. If DDO gets any more fun, it could create a breach in the space continuum and doom us all.

Just to be sure, we should also remove Grease from the game. That can lead to too many fun situations. That's just asking for trouble to leave it there.

/thread lol

Daigaioh
10-15-2009, 08:27 PM
Not sure if any of you have ever played City of heroes but their way of doing respecs works alot better in correcting build issues. you also get limited respect tokens to use. sometimes they even give you fre ones just to fix anything that might be changed by new features or changes in powers. but this is just a idea.

pjw
10-15-2009, 08:49 PM
The point is there should be some penalty for doing this to your alt, otherwise what's the deterrent?

I have to take exception to this...why should there be any deterrent to fixing broken builds that in most/many cases were broken by game changes made by turbine?

Even in the case of poorly designed characters...why do we need a deterrent? Balance is all that is required. I see no problem with a reincarnation matching, but not exceeding, the base power of a fully twinked secondary. In fact I see that as desirable.

Once you introduce the free minor extras (2pts, minor feat), you need a balacing cost. Not sure what that would be, and it gets messy fast.

GlassCannon
10-15-2009, 09:13 PM
You have to gain 5% more xp for each bubble. Quest XP is the same.

You thought levels 7-12 were hard before?

ugh.

"Great group guys, want to do more than 1 quest?" ... /disband.


As for the rest of it, bring it on! I dig (almost)all the content, just hate when a party can't stay together for more than 20 minutes.

Putting any more time into those levels means another full day or three just scraping by trying to get out of that level range... yes, 500xp can hold you back for as much as a week.... then again, I am adamantly against soloing... perhaps I should try it.

Junts
10-15-2009, 09:23 PM
You thought levels 7-12 were hard before?

ugh.

"Great group guys, want to do more than 1 quest?" ... /disband.


As for the rest of it, bring it on! I dig (almost)all the content, just hate when a party can't stay together for more than 20 minutes.

Putting any more time into those levels means another full day or three just scraping by trying to get out of that level range... yes, 500xp can hold you back for as much as a week.... then again, I am adamantly against soloing... perhaps I should try it.



I suspect that 34-36 point builds with full sets of raid loot in its banks are not going to have major problems leveling .. they'll probably be able to pull out their loot and solo stuff if they reall yfeel like it.

Remember most titan and queen loot is lv 11-12, even tier 3 greensteel is only 14.

Slorgs
10-16-2009, 08:20 AM
I'm P2P, but I have pugged with many F2P players, some of whom who have been good, some of whom have been not.

As most of my guild and friends in the game are long time VIP players, there will be no incentive to grouping with F2P players at all. For me it's fine, as my 1st time characters will benefit from running the grinds over and over to get the maximum exp from missions, because I'll be be able to outpace them by 5% (at least).

However we have a hard time from gianthold on with F2P players for a number of reasons (I don't want to bash F2P here). But this system will guarantee we will be looking for experienced players in our groups that will not slow us down.

The whole game for people who true reincarnate will become a matter of grinding the max exp in the shortest possible time, this leaves no room for -most- F2P people.

They don't have the content, they can't keep up, and quite frankly they probably won't be wanted.

Like I said, I'm fairly new to the game and my highest toon is 15, and it was F2P that got me to VIP. So I can see how this business model makes sense for Turbine. As a long time player of AC1 and AC2, I have a certain fondness for Turbine.

This respec option as I see it (whatever anyone is calling it) will just further alienate the two player bases. I think the best suggestion I have seen is to remove the exp penalty. People will lose tomes, and be at lvl 1, this is enough. Make the exp curve on par with the normal curve. Otherwise any LFM we post will be VIP/experienced only. I happen to think there are a lot of good players in this game, F2P and P2P. A lot of good people. This exp thing will mean that our guild and friends will be brining up new toons with a steep curve, and there will be zero patience or tolerance for "slacking" in any quest.

How is this fun? Some of my favorite quest runs went comically bad. Some of my most frustrating cost me +20k in resources from a pug raid. When exp becomes so critical there will be 3 kinds of groups:

Guild only. PUG experienced players only. And PUG for the have-nots.

Grim

smatt
10-16-2009, 10:17 AM
Very accurate. We can do anything... but it's then a question of: if by doing that, do we break people unexpectedly?

I often hear players compliment us on the countless ways you can customize your character's build. This same pro is a con when it comes to implementing new features. Nothing is ever as simple as applying a blanket solution. We need to make sure that a feature isn't going to break every warforged wearing a pink docent,




Oh PLEASE break every WF wearing a pink docent... Please :D

Strakeln
10-16-2009, 10:24 AM
I can't help but to be amused by the overwhelming placing of blame on the players regarding the need for a respec.


I wouldn't recommend using this feature solely to correct a bad multi-class decision.

You messed up your character, suck it up and reroll normally.

I guess when it comes to making a character right, a second or third times a charm? :O

All except two of my characters were made before the following:
- Monk Class
- TWF affecting unarmed attacks
- PrEs
- Tempest (yes, it's a PrE, but it was out long before PrEs were common)
- Crafting
- Various changes to alignment-based things (like new loot, or Greensteel good effects being able to be used by anyone)

So on and so forth.

I'd like to see any one of you make a future-proof build that is able to adapt to everything you don't know is coming, while still remaining a top-tier character. The fact is, you can't.

Shade, I've seen you reroll some of your characters. Did you mess them up? Or did the rules change underneath your feet? You don't really need to answer that, we already know.

Borror0
10-16-2009, 10:28 AM
I can't help but to be amused by the overwhelming placing of blame on the players regarding the need for a respec.
It seems you've inadvertently let a MadFloyd's quote in there that has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

gfunk
10-16-2009, 01:08 PM
Personally, I look forward to re-leveling a couple of my 28 point characters. The longer time leveling will allow me to enjoy some of the lower lvl quests that I ususally either skip, or just zip through. Some people will probably want even slower leveling (I'm thinking of some of those RP or Perma Death types). You just can't please everyone.. its impossible.

That said, I do think something should be done for some of the multiclass people who made certain builds, because the game mechanics and class features have changed so much since the games inception. Of course, players might have expected that those changes would occur: My first 5 capped characters were all pure class, because I felt there was a considerable chance that changes in the future might mess them up if they multiclassed early on.

But still, I think some changes were rather un-anticipated (especially for more casual players who aren't as addicted to the forums). Many people who play the game were totally un-aware that there might be prestige enhancements in the future, or that the eventual cap would likely be lvl 20. It would be unreasonable to expect the bulk of the DDO population to research enough to expect those things.

KoboldKiller
10-16-2009, 02:34 PM
Umm, nobody says you HAVE to do it.


I get a negative rep for this, CLASSIC.

bobbryan2
10-16-2009, 04:09 PM
I get a negative rep for this, CLASSIC.

It IS a pretty weak argument. I mean, it's not as bad as saying it's an easy-button or it's WoWifying DDO, but it's just as trite.

Borror0
10-16-2009, 05:40 PM
It IS a pretty weak argument.
I would go for more than that. I would say that it's fallacious (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2243772#post2243772).

ddoer
10-16-2009, 05:52 PM
Umm, nobody says you HAVE to do it.


I get a negative rep for this, CLASSIC.

gj. i think you deserve it. not because you are disagree with other people, but because you are BSing.

go to the pal and monk forum, when ppl complaint these classes are nerfed, you tell them "no one ask you to build a pal/monk, noob!" :cool:

Borror0
10-16-2009, 06:10 PM
go to the pal and monk forum, when ppl complaint these classes are nerfed, you tell them "no one ask you to build a pal/monk, noob!" :cool:
The worse in all of that is that I have already seen that happen once...

Lorien_the_First_One
10-17-2009, 08:07 AM
I get a negative rep for this, CLASSIC.

Its a smug, almost rude, and non contributing contribution to the thread. I didn't hit you with the neg, but I can see why someone would.

Borror0
10-17-2009, 08:32 AM
Its a smug, almost rude, and non contributing contribution to the thread. I didn't hit you with the neg, but I can see why someone would.
Personally, I neg rep anyone who tries to derail a derail by complaining about receiving neg rep.

zealous
10-17-2009, 09:14 AM
I can't help but to be amused by the overwhelming placing of blame on the players regarding the need for a respec.

Well my conspiracy hat tells me that the reason for MadFloyd saying that is that they're working on something similar to what forum dudes/dudettes have put forth, i.e. lvl16a/b4 respec to 16a.

Going all speculative the reason for putting the excessive xp curve in is to deterr people who just want to change a level or two into not doing it.



I'd like to see any one of you make a future-proof build that is able to adapt to everything you don't know is coming, while still remaining a top-tier character. The fact is, you can't.

Not to mention that them having to make sure they don't break every lvl3 elf female with any changes limits what changes they can make. Now if there are functional alternatives to TR then they might be free to make bigger changes.

Tamryn
10-18-2009, 08:18 PM
It's not fail because allot of players, like myself think its a cool feature that extends the life of the game for the hardcore players.

The devs fully understand you want a 100%, full, free, no strings attached, easy button respec. But sorry they are not giving that to you. Saying this feature is bad because its not what you want is nonsense.

You messed up your character, suck it up and reroll normally.

Like the reincarnate option you are a fail, enjoy your day. The more people have been looking at it the more consider it a fail at what was actually asked for.

Tamryn
10-18-2009, 08:27 PM
im saying you can get 3.1 mil xp way way before 40-80 shrouds woulda been completed. thats 4-8 months of time for the shroud vs. a month or less for 3.1 mil xp.


if people are capping 1-20 in under 2 weeks, 1-20 for 3.1 mil is 2.5-5 weeks . way way faster than 4-8 months for 40-80 shrouds . not saying everyone can do so. but xp is way too easy to get to worry about them bumping the xp up. plenty of players i know are gonan be using true reincarnations jsut to save havign to run 80+ shrouds ( 8 months of game time).

Now ask them what the total XP is currently in the game, I'm sure they have that figured that out. If this means everything has to be ran to elite, and every explorer/rare/slayer done at appropriate levels then I'd say its way off from being intelligent design or useful at all.

FluffyCalico
10-18-2009, 09:30 PM
Now ask them what the total XP is currently in the game, I'm sure they have that figured that out. If this means everything has to be ran to elite, and every explorer/rare/slayer done at appropriate levels then I'd say its way off from being intelligent design or useful at all.

You can get to cap without doing any slayers or even setting foot in the desert/necro areas. You can also skip half the house and market and harbor quests. So no 1.6 times as much XP will be no issue to get. Just time consuming.

spyderwolf
10-18-2009, 10:29 PM
Now ask them what the total XP is currently in the game, I'm sure they have that figured that out. If this means everything has to be ran to elite, and every explorer/rare/slayer done at appropriate levels then I'd say its way off from being intelligent design or useful at all.

there are dozens of quests that you can milk 80-150k xp out of. getting the xp isnt a problem, jsut people feel that it isnt worth their time to do so. which is ok, they dont have to if they dont want too.

bobbryan2
10-18-2009, 10:41 PM
You can get to cap without doing any slayers or even setting foot in the desert/necro areas. You can also skip half the house and market and harbor quests. So no 1.6 times as much XP will be no issue to get. Just time consuming.

I don't necessarily agree with that assessment. It's too simplistic of a way to look at it. Because it's not a standard increase in xp... it's an increase almost entirely in the final 5 levels, where leveling quests are most scarce.

Yeah, I'm sure it's possible. But it's going to be an issue.

FluffyCalico
10-18-2009, 10:59 PM
I don't necessarily agree with that assessment. It's too simplistic of a way to look at it. Because it's not a standard increase in xp... it's an increase almost entirely in the final 5 levels, where leveling quests are most scarce.

Yeah, I'm sure it's possible. But it's going to be an issue.

Except the # of quests at end is going from 5 to 10 quests. I don't count the 2 BS ones.

Thriand
10-18-2009, 11:12 PM
Except the # of quests at end is going from 5 to 10 quests. I don't count the 2 BS ones.

If you are going to discount the 2 "BS ones" then the 5 new ones can barely be considered much better. They all took about 15 mins or less to complete and were barely worth any xp at all even with optionals if I remember correctly though I must admit that seeing as I'm capped on the test server I didn't worry about the xp too much.

FluffyCalico
10-18-2009, 11:29 PM
If you are going to discount the 2 "BS ones" then the 5 new ones can barely be considered much better. They all took about 15 mins or less to complete and were barely worth any xp at all even with optionals if I remember correctly though I must admit that seeing as I'm capped on the test server I didn't worry about the xp too much.

Hm if the 5 new ones are 3K xp each then this could be an issue...
If they stink in that they are 10K or so each then I don't see me having an issue.

Thriand
10-18-2009, 11:35 PM
Hm if the 5 new ones are 3K xp each then this could be an issue...
If they stink in that they are 10K or so each then I don't see me having an issue.

more like 5k if I remember correctly I'll check again tomorrow

Favis
10-19-2009, 12:06 AM
If not already in the works, you guys should consider the possibility to add some sort of class level respec to correct bad multiclasses.
Fully agree

transtemporal
10-19-2009, 04:15 PM
So no 1.6 times as much XP will be no issue to get. Just time consuming.

I think the point is that the effort is pretty considerable, not that the XP isn't readily available. Even the people I know who level to 20 in 2-3 weeks don't consider it so trivial that 2 TRs is a walk in the park.

Personally, I think the extra xp is a throwback to the "xp penalty-for-multi-classing" days. I don't really get the point of it, especially considering the pay-off is looking decidedly average.

KoboldKiller
10-19-2009, 04:24 PM
You do realize if you were uber in the first place you wouldn't need to reincarnate right?

:D :p :rolleyes:

transtemporal
10-19-2009, 05:09 PM
You do realize if you were uber in the first place you wouldn't need to reincarnate right?

:D :p :rolleyes:

20th level is but the seed of uberness from which springs the tree of uberosity, which is embiggened in thy eyes and has little wings next to its name. These are the signs of true uberness that everyone should strive for. ;)

Borror0
10-19-2009, 05:18 PM
I like your choice of verb.

Cyr
10-19-2009, 05:19 PM
True Reincarnation is NOT intended as a respec feature. It's merely an option for those who are attracted to the notion of further progressing their characters and not intended for everyone.

I wouldn't recommend using this feature solely to correct a bad multi-class decision.

Then I must say fail! People need a full respec option. The lesser respecs are far too limited for most to correct either mistakes in their builds or nerfed builds (and we all know that over DDO's history that has never ever happened).

QuantumFX
10-19-2009, 06:32 PM
Now ask them what the total XP is currently in the game, I'm sure they have that figured that out. If this means everything has to be ran to elite, and every explorer/rare/slayer done at appropriate levels then I'd say its way off from being intelligent design or useful at all.
there are dozens of quests that you can milk 80-150k xp out of. getting the xp isnt a problem, jsut people feel that it isnt worth their time to do so. which is ok, they dont have to if they dont want too.

Indeed. One of the things that people fail to realize is that the only time you have trouble getting from level 17-20 is if you’re on a character that has burned all his/her first time experience rewards. I have a paladin that’s made it halfway through level 10 and has yet to complete all the level 4 quests on elite.

FluffyCalico
10-19-2009, 09:56 PM
Personally, I think the extra xp is a throwback to the "xp penalty-for-multi-classing" days...

Cool then those who rez back into the same class should not have to get 1.6 times the xp. Oh yeah they do so that can't be it.

Drfirewater79
11-09-2009, 01:05 PM
I guess i am more silly to think I'll have to lose 1,900,000 xp.

And as the xp curse is so steep, I'll have to level up run with "no noobs" groups only instead of helping the newbies on the way of leveling.

I agree ... come true reincarnation version of my main ... its all no noobs and no free to play and just hardcore zerg-a-holic to lvl 20 since i need twice the exp i cant wait for slow players and cant wait to explain BS quests that i hate to people who are gonna cost me time when trying to level ....


seems like this exp grind they planned is just gonna make things harder for there new player base cause no one is willing to wait twice as long for twice as much exp ... if they didnt increase the exp needed it wouldnt be so bad cause you could still pug it and slow down to help new players but instead it will be bunch of vets playing at low levels and ignoring and hating on slow/new players for causeing delays ....


are you guys at turbine really sure this is what you wanted? to seperate the community ? spread hate? intentionally alienate a large part of your community?

doesnt seem like its as good a strategy as F2P was.

why does it seem like you guys never think this stuff through before you throw things together ... you had to know that people where gonna hate this and complain so emotionally.

bobbryan2
11-09-2009, 02:14 PM
I agree ... come true reincarnation version of my main ... its all no noobs and no free to play and just hardcore zerg-a-holic to lvl 20 since i need twice the exp i cant wait for slow players and cant wait to explain BS quests that i hate to people who are gonna cost me time when trying to level ....

Not really double. You need triple the xp for the levels that matter.