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View Full Version : Turbine, you are midding the other half of the equasion



Vendra
10-12-2009, 06:06 PM
So I wanted to say very good job on trying to put epic level encounters into the game turbine, but you are forgetting a very large piece of the equasion. you are not putting in the epic spells. Without these you are basicaly making divine and arcane casters completely useless in these quest and this is being very unfair to them. You should not give the monsters such power without giving the chance to the PC casters as well because without the epic spells they are not even going to stand a chance without many death recalls and reruns. How about putting some of these spells in for the casters.

Nailed to the sky
Appoclype from the sky
Hellball
Greater spell resistance
epic mage armor
epic repulsion
epic spell reflection
Eternal Freedom
Greater Ruin
Living Lightning
Lord of Nightmares
Mass Frog
Momento Mori
Safe Time
Ruin
Rain of Fire
Vengeful Gaze of God


and so much more that would make this a lot more fun for casters.

Edit: and I can't spell. I have no idea what midding is. Meant to say missing *hangs head in shame*

Angelus_dead
10-12-2009, 06:15 PM
Spells like that are a good possibility for when player characters advance past level 20.

That hasn't happened yet, and probably won't for a while. The current project for "epic quests" is not intended to be that kind of thing. (I suggest that when the level cap eventually does go up above 20, they simply create "level 10 spells", starting with examples from your list, rather than attempting to implement epic spellcraft DCs)

Vendra
10-12-2009, 06:20 PM
Spells like that are a good possibility for when player characters advance past level 20.

That hasn't happened yet, and probably won't for a while. The current project for "epic quests" is not intended to be that kind of thing. (I suggest that when the level cap eventually does go up above 20, they simply create "level 10 spells", starting with examples from your list, rather than attempting to implement epic spellcraft DCs)

While I understand what you are saying, there still needs to be a fix to epic problem created for casters in these new dungeons. Casters will just not be invited except to be heal and buff bots and that makes it rather boring for the casters. Something needs to be put into place for the casters and its just not there yet. My suggestions is but one of many that I am sure will come up but what I have listed is my suggestion.

MrCow
10-12-2009, 06:28 PM
While I understand what you are saying, there still needs to be a fix to epic problem created for casters in these new dungeons. Casters will just not be invited except to be heal and buff bots and that makes it rather boring for the casters.

No-resist spells are still very handy on Epic difficulty as well (Acid Fog, Sleet Storm, Wall of Fire, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Ray of Enfeeblement, Waves of Exhaustion). The CR 32 rated critters also have workable saves, generally in the low 20's, as well as HP closer to the 3000 range, so you can use a plethora of things on them as well (Web, Flesh to Stone, Slow, Blindness, Area of Effect nukes, etc.). Also, worst case scenario, they can also play aggro magnet when the situation calls as well, due to having abilities to more easily collect aggro in mass.

Granted, I realize that arcanes and divines will be having to take a support role in many of these situations which isn't quite as fun to be forced into, either by quest design or group perception, but they still have other spells with uses in Epic difficulty that aren't buff and heal related.

Angelus_dead
10-12-2009, 06:29 PM
While I understand what you are saying, there still needs to be a fix to epic problem created for casters in these new dungeons.
Yes, that is needed. But that solution is simpler:
Don't use stupid-high stats for "epic" monsters.

It's not going to be fun for melee guys to teleport to the tavern to fix their weapons 4 times during the quest either. The current design for "epic" mode quests is a foolish mistake; the idea should be to boost them to about the same difficulty as naturally level 20 content, or slightly above.

Tyrande
10-12-2009, 06:32 PM
So I wanted to say very good job on trying to put epic level encounters into the game turbine, but you are forgetting a very large piece of the equasion. you are not putting in the epic spells. Without these you are basicaly making divine and arcane casters completely useless in these quest and this is being very unfair to them. You should not give the monsters such power without giving the chance to the PC casters as well because without the epic spells they are not even going to stand a chance without many death recalls and reruns. How about putting some of these spells in for the casters.

Nailed to the sky
Appoclype from the sky
Hellball
Greater spell resistance
epic mage armor
epic repulsion
epic spell reflection
Eternal Freedom
Greater Ruin
Living Lightning
Lord of Nightmares
Mass Frog
Momento Mori
Safe Time
Ruin
Rain of Fire
Vengeful Gaze of God


and so much more that would make this a lot more fun for casters.

Edit: and I can't spell. I have no idea what midding is. Meant to say missing *hangs head in shame*

/signed

I mainly play two casters, a bard and a cleric occasionally, I am feeling pretty useless right now in all the Devils - Shavarath quests except "Weapons Shipment or The Wrath of the Silver Flame" or part II of the Tower of Despair for kiting. But casters aren't meant to be kiters. They are meant to be damage dealers or crowd controllers. Aren't casters supposedly be the DPS and damage dealers? With the epic warding of these monsters in epic dungeons, they can't even perform the crowd control role. I don't see parties inviting them to the quests except for buffing, hasting and then occasionally healing the warforged. If they want to be healers, they might as well roll a cleric, and not even a favored soul. Half of the favored souls I met are duel wielding some sort of weapon. Well, last night I have seen a warforged pure level 18 sorcerer with only 20 charisma but close to 30 strength and constitution and duel wielding khopeshes and won't haste the party because he said he is mad-stoned and won't do crowd control. Casters are NOT that effective to be meleeing because of their half BAB unless the Eldritch Knight PrC is implemented somehow either via the re-incarnation features coming up or somehow via the PrE mechanisms.
clicking 10 divine power clickies or tenser's transformation won't benefit the party either.

Even though I have a fighter, a ranger and a rogue, I don't like being forced into playing them.

If the epic level quests are meant for fighters only, then well, may as well everyone delete their non-melee classes if they want to fight, and keep clerics only if they want to heal.

Angelus_dead
10-12-2009, 06:38 PM
No-resist spells are still very handy on Epic difficulty as well (...). The CR 32 rated critters also have workable saves, generally in the low 20's, as well as HP closer to the 3000 range, so you can use a plethora of things on them as well (...). Also, worst case scenario, they can also play aggro magnet when the situation calls as well, due to having abilities to more easily collect aggro in mass.
1. Damned with faint praise.

2. Anti-nirvana fallacy.

3. The existence of workarounds to mitigate a bad design doesn't make it a good design.

Tyrande
10-12-2009, 06:43 PM
No-resist spells are still very handy on Epic difficulty as well (Acid Fog, Sleet Storm, Wall of Fire, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Ray of Enfeeblement, Waves of Exhaustion). The CR 32 rated critters also have workable saves, generally in the low 20's, as well as HP closer to the 3000 range, so you can use a plethora of things on them as well (Web, Flesh to Stone, Slow, Blindness, Area of Effect nukes, etc.). Also, worst case scenario, they can also play aggro magnet when the situation calls as well, due to having abilities to more easily collect aggro in mass.

Granted, I realize that arcanes and divines will be having to take a support role in many of these situations which isn't quite as fun to be forced into, either by quest design or group perception, but they still have other spells with uses in Epic difficulty that aren't buff and heal related.

Very few sorcerers even carry sleet storm, ray of enfeeblement or waves of exhaustion.

My sorcerer carry waves of exhaustion, but I only got it at level 17.
If they want sorcerers to be nukers and don't give them the option to nuke, what is the fun of playing them?

What's a critical maximized empowered polar ray at 900 points going to do a 10,000hp thrash monster? Very quick death of the sorcerer, even with maxed out diplomacy without items.
Monsters seem to be attack casters mainly now and the melee people are not intimidating much, except when filling the roles in the VOD or TOD raids.

MrCow
10-12-2009, 06:52 PM
Very few sorcerers even carry sleet storm, ray of enfeeblement or waves of exhaustion.

But they do work well off of scrolls, even if that isn't an answer you wish to see (barring no SR to penetrate for the latter two).


If they want sorcerers to be nukers and don't give them the option to nuke, what is the fun of playing them?

What's a critical maximized empowered polar ray at 900 points going to do a 10,000hp thrash monster? Very quick death of the sorcerer, even with maxed out diplomacy without items.

Oh, don't get me wrong with how I laid my points down. I agree that the current state of things has arcanes who nuke and perform other support-oriented roles at an extreme disadvantage because SP is so incredibly limiting in the current way epic difficulty has been laid out. When I was left with only meteor swarm as a spell to use on King Raiyum and 5 hours in (after ~16 recalls) and only got him down to ~60% health I was thinking "this is ridiculous, I'm barely making a dent".

Tyrande
10-12-2009, 06:58 PM
Nailed to the sky
Appoclype from the sky
Hellball
Greater spell resistance
epic mage armor
epic repulsion
epic spell reflection
Eternal Freedom
Greater Ruin
Living Lightning
Lord of Nightmares
Mass Frog
Momento Mori
Safe Time
Ruin
Rain of Fire
Vengeful Gaze of God


I believe you forgot:
Epic Warding
Entropic Husk
Vampiric Feast
Epic Gate
Mass Fowl

Tyrande
10-12-2009, 07:10 PM
But they do work well off of scrolls, even if that isn't an answer you wish to see (barring no SR to penetrate for the latter two).

Yeah, Spell Resistance is an issue in Shavarath. Don't get me wrong, I have great spell penetration (+24), but it won't work from scrolls.



Oh, don't get me wrong with how I laid my points down. I agree that the current state of things has arcanes who nuke and perform other support-oriented roles at an extreme disadvantage because SP is so incredibly limiting in the current way epic difficulty has been laid out. When I was left with only meteor swarm as a spell to use on King Raiyum and 5 hours in (after ~16 recalls) and only got him down to ~60% health I was thinking "this is ridiculous, I'm barely making a dent".

This wasn't directing at you, Mr. Cow, I was just mentioning the trend/fact that most hard or elite raids, there is only ONE caster out of 12, and most of the time 2 clerics, 1 bard, and 8 melee players. Sometimes, there aren't any arcane casters at all. I was mentioning this to Turbine if they want their game that way.

Thank you for your feedback, Mr. Cow, I wish there is some form of invocations (as in warlock) available for the arcane casters out there. It might be too long of a wait for warlock. But then, if warlock is available, who will play other arcane casters.

I see a trend in level 16-20 dungeons. Other arcane players have complained to me that people told them they are worthless if they nuke. I told them about the party expectations, and building themselves good reputations as a team players. But some parties and especially melee players are brutal: They demand "haste" whenever they want it, and they told you how to play your character: lay a web here, dancing ball here, acid fog there, fire wall there. Oh yeah, and lately they demand "Displacement", "Blur" and "Stoneskin". I told them, if you're so uber leet, why do you need these?

And when you have a chance to actually kill a monster with finger of death with enervation or energy drain first, they went ahead and duel khopesh'd ahead of you.
I thought parties are supposed to work together? I normally do not kill steal a melee's monster if they hit them first.

Tyrande
10-12-2009, 07:20 PM
[...] I agree that the current state of things has arcanes who nuke and perform other support-oriented roles at an extreme disadvantage because SP is so incredibly limiting in the current way epic difficulty has been laid out. When I was left with only meteor swarm as a spell to use on King Raiyum and 5 hours in (after ~16 recalls) and only got him down to ~60% health I was thinking "this is ridiculous, I'm barely making a dent".

Good thing they aren't putting epic vampires in the game. I don't think any group has the DPS to kill regenerating epic monsters.

Tyrande
10-12-2009, 08:59 PM
Spells like that are a good possibility for when player characters advance past level 20.

That hasn't happened yet, and probably won't for a while. The current project for "epic quests" is not intended to be that kind of thing. (I suggest that when the level cap eventually does go up above 20, they simply create "level 10 spells", starting with examples from your list, rather than attempting to implement epic spellcraft DCs)

If there are epic +6 and +7 items on the Quori and Epic weapons list on the other thread, I don't see why PURE arcane and divine casters cannot have epic spells.

sirgog
10-12-2009, 09:01 PM
Yeah, Spell Resistance is an issue in Shavarath. Don't get me wrong, I have great spell penetration (+24), but it won't work from scrolls.



This wasn't directing at you, Mr. Cow, I was just mentioning the trend/fact that most hard or elite raids, there is only ONE caster out of 12, and most of the time 2 clerics, 1 bard, and 8 melee players. Sometimes, there aren't any arcane casters at all. I was mentioning this to Turbine if they want their game that way.

Thank you for your feedback, Mr. Cow, I wish there is some form of invocations (as in warlock) available for the arcane casters out there. It might be too long of a wait for warlock. But then, if warlock is available, who will play other arcane casters.

I see a trend in level 16-20 dungeons. Other arcane players have complained to me that people told them they are worthless if they nuke. I told them about the party expectations, and building themselves good reputations as a team players. But some parties and especially melee players are brutal: They demand "haste" whenever they want it, and they told you how to play your character: lay a web here, dancing ball here, acid fog there, fire wall there. Oh yeah, and lately they demand "Displacement", "Blur" and "Stoneskin". I told them, if you're so uber leet, why do you need these?

And when you have a chance to actually kill a monster with finger of death with enervation or energy drain first, they went ahead and duel khopesh'd ahead of you.
I thought parties are supposed to work together? I normally do not kill steal a melee's monster if they hit them first.

Nuking is more viable now than it was in the darkest days for casters (Mod 7-8) - at least most mobs on normal and hard die to one crit nuke spell, and there's not the total dearth of shrines experienced in Mod 6 content. In addition, the Mod 10 content looks to be more Firewall friendly than anything since Mod 5.

That said, casters *need* some way to meaningfully contribute to a fight when they are OOM or conserving mana. Some way to generate a (non-maximized, non-empowered but caster level 20) Chain Lightning or DBF or Oitluke's Frozen Sphere or Force Missiles without spending mana (perhaps each one on a separate 15 second cooldown, or on a shared 5 second CD) is sorely needed.

That way arcanes can still put out *some* DPS and contribute a little - melees might do 2-3 times the damage they do, but the arcane still has pretty numbers showing up all over their screen.

The ma

sirgog
10-12-2009, 09:12 PM
Yes, that is needed. But that solution is simpler:
Don't use stupid-high stats for "epic" monsters.

It's not going to be fun for melee guys to teleport to the tavern to fix their weapons 4 times during the quest either. The current design for "epic" mode quests is a foolish mistake; the idea should be to boost them to about the same difficulty as naturally level 20 content, or slightly above.

The Epic quests are, by their very name, meant to be level 21+ quests that we are running underlevel. They should be harder than anything else in game as they are *the* premier end-game challenge - just like The Shroud on Elite was the premier end-game challenge in Mod 6 and was *much* harder than anything else in game at the time (save the busted Abbot).

That said, having every single mob be a rednamed boss (through Epic Ward which approximates redname immunities) with most of them having 5000+ hp and the ability to trash our weapons isn't a well designed challenge.


A well-designed challenge could be done like this:
Bump the trash mobs up, but less than they have been. Dramatically increase hp on a minority of mobs, but not on all of them. (Example: Have gnoll melee champions with 10000 hp, gnoll melee grunts and archers with 3000 hp, gnoll casters with hp varying from 1200 to 2000, and have some quite brittle skeletal archers with 400 hp. Keep the through-the-roof HP on the bosses).
Increase the number of mobs.
Give most foes a precast buff spell that mimics red-named immunities and can be dispelled. Also, have mobs enter combat with dispellable but powerful traditional buffs such as GH, Protection from Elements, etc.
Place the mobs in strategic locations - such as blackbone skeleton archers (the brittle ones with 400hp) on ledges that are inaccessible (so players need non-Firewall ranged attacks or spells)

Angelus_dead
10-12-2009, 10:12 PM
The Epic quests are, by their very name, meant to be level 21+ quests that we are running underlevel
Untrue. If they were meant to be "21+", then the listed level on the XP window wouldn't be "20". It would be some number higher than 20. Furthermore, according to the developers the expectation for epic difficulty is as follows:
Ever wished you could run one of your favorite mid-game dungeons at a higher level, have it be challenging, and receive awesome loot for it? With Epic Dungeons, now you can!
Do you see the phrase "higher level" in there? As used in that sentence, it means "higher than the previous mid-game level of the quest", not "higher than anything else in DDO", and certainly not "higher than you'd reasonably expect to find in DDO".


They should be harder than anything else in game as they are *the* premier end-game challenge
Just because some developer decided to do something does not mean it "should" be that way. Developers can make mistakes, and epic mode is one. It is a mistake for them to target the epic mode of midlevel quests as more than slightly above that of naturally level 19-20 quests

The useful objective for the developers is to bring old quests up to the current level cap, not way beyond it. The idea should be to increase the population of players who can enjoy this content.


They should be harder than anything else in game as they are *the* premier end-game challenge
As already explained in this thread, it is possible to be "harder than anything else" without involving "stupidly high stats".


just like The Shroud on Elite was the premier end-game challenge in Mod 6
Wrong, as already covered in the other thread. Shroud elite was NEVER a progression step. Nothing dropped from Shroud elite that you couldn't have gotten elsewhere. The only theoretical benefit to Shroud elite was a higher chance of random junk with high min level, which is not at all what the loot motivation for Shroud was.

Compared to Shroud normal, Shroud elite actually gave less greensteel ingredients per minute. But in this new system, "epic" Menechetarun will be the ONLY way to get this new tier of loot.


A well-designed challenge could be done like this:
...
Give most foes a precast buff spell that mimics red-named immunities and can be dispelled.
...
The good way to design "epic" difficulties is not to even think about it being "epic" at all. Just treat it as if you were building a new quest for level 19-21, and give the monsters abilities that seem appropriate when compared to the existing level 19 quests. (Which themselves could first need a big of ramping up)

Angelus_dead
10-12-2009, 10:15 PM
If there are epic +6 and +7 items on the Quori and Epic weapons list on the other thread, I don't see why PURE arcane and divine casters cannot have epic spells.
Uh, okay, step back and look at what you're asking:
"Hey, you devs made this content too hard, so you need to make my character more damaging so I can handle it"

That's rather perverse reasoning, as it is attempting to bandaid a mistake they should simply avoid committing, by not making the content so hard in the first place.

Yargore
10-13-2009, 02:28 AM
It's not going to be fun for melee guys to teleport to the tavern to fix their weapons 4 times during the quest either. The current design for "epic" mode quests is a foolish mistake; the idea should be to boost them to about the same difficulty as naturally level 20 content, or slightly above.

They finally add something that you can't pug on elite the first week it's out, and you want it to be made easier?

I know that it might be different for casuals like you, but powergamers don't really have any challenge in DDO atm.
I really hope the devs won't give in to the cries of the newbies and casuals on this one.

Yargore
10-13-2009, 02:30 AM
Uh, okay, step back and look at what you're asking:
"Hey, you devs made this content too hard, so you need to make my character more damaging so I can handle it"

That's rather perverse reasoning, as it is attempting to bandaid a mistake they should simply avoid committing, by not making the content so hard in the first place.

With that reasoning we would all still be level 1 :rolleyes:

Becomming more powerful is a part of the game, so why should it stop now?

bobbryan2
10-13-2009, 02:37 AM
They finally add something that you can't pug on elite the first week it's out, and you want it to be made easier?

I know that it might be different for casuals like you, but powergamers don't really have any challenge in DDO atm.
I really hope the devs won't give in to the cries of the newbies and casuals on this one.

Have you 'run' the epic quest on a nuker caster? Out of pure curiosity.

Yargore
10-13-2009, 02:48 AM
Have you 'run' the epic quest on a nuker caster? Out of pure curiosity.

Nope.
I ran it with my shuriken speced monk though, and man it was hard, I could barely contribute anything, nerf it!!! (No, I don't have a shuriken speced monk, I hope you get my point)

FluffyCalico
10-13-2009, 02:52 AM
It's not going to be fun for melee guys to teleport to the tavern to fix their weapons 4 times during the quest either. The current design for "epic" mode quests is a foolish mistake; the idea should be to boost them to about the same difficulty as naturally level 20 content, or slightly above.

Epic should be harder. ToD is way way too easy.

As for all the weapon breaking repair runs. I ask 1 question...Do you have any ranks in prevent damage? If the answer is no, that was your choice deal with it. What this does is make that enhancement actually have some value. Add in not being able to reenter and they would really mean something to anyone without 10 weapons.

PS> Giving us epic spells at level 20 is a bad idea. However something does need to be done. Maybe triple all casters SP or triple their damage. The issue is not that epic makes casters .... this has been the trend since what mod 6? So don't point at epic as the caster problem as it has been here since before shroud.

BurningDownTheHouse
10-13-2009, 03:18 AM
What you guys are forgetting is that caster pres are not out yet.
I belive that once they are out the issue will become more managable, i.e. you wont be able to run the caster equivalent of a shurikan speced monk through epic content, but a well built and well equiped caster will be able to add meningful contribution.

Yes, that does mean that hope that casters pres wont suck...

FluffyCalico
10-13-2009, 03:21 AM
What you guys are forgetting is that caster pres are not out yet.
I belive that once they are out the issue will become more managable, i.e. you wont be able to run the caster equivalent of a shurikan speced monk through epic content, but a well built and well equiped caster will be able to add meningful contribution.

Yes, that does mean that hope that casters pres wont suck...

Lets take the sorc ones and assume they won't let you turn into an air ele :eek:

How is making anyone of your spells your main element going to change anything?
Will it change CC? nope
Will it change debuffs? nope
Buffs? nope
Instead of having 3 spells that do element x will you have 12? yep
Capstone 10% more dps going to change the fact they need about 500% more to DPS well on epic? Nope

So maybe the wiz pres will help...But the sorc ones won't solve anything.

Borror0
10-13-2009, 03:25 AM
Epic should be harder. ToD is way way too easy.
Preaching to the choir. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206682)

However something does need to be done. Maybe triple all casters SP or triple their damage.
What needs to be done is to stop the continuing trend of constantly pushing the monsters' HP up and of, continually, giving them more and more immunities (http://my.ddo.com/borror0/2009/09/21/the-tale-of-our-demise/).

Maybe, after that, spellcasters will need higher DPS or more spell points but the first step is to revise the design that caused this in the first place as it, on top of making caster underpowered when compared to melee characters, removes options and unearth a flaw of DDO's combat (the combats get dull if they last too long because melee characters just stand there and press right mouse button).

BurningDownTheHouse
10-13-2009, 03:30 AM
Lets take the sorc ones and assume they won't let you turn into an air ele :eek:

How is making anyone of your spells your main element going to change anything?
Will it change CC? nope
Will it change debuffs? nope
Buffs? nope
Instead of having 3 spells that do element x will you have 12? yep
Capstone 10% more dps going to change the fact they need about 500% more to DPS well on epic? Nope

So maybe the wiz pres will help...But the sorc ones won't solve anything.

If we assume that they wont let you change into an air ele, we assume that the pre is not going to be implemented exactly as per PnP.

What if they allow you to bestow elemntal immunity for short periods?
What if they allow you to bestow elemntal voulnarability for short periods?
What if they allow to just straight up do 200% more damage with your chosen element?

We don't know, that's why i'm still hopefull.

Borror0
10-13-2009, 03:32 AM
What you guys are forgetting is that caster pres are not out yet.
While true, the gap is too huge that fixing those simply with PrEs would be problematic (as that would mean that level 6, 12 and 18 represent huge power jumps).

FluffyCalico
10-13-2009, 03:35 AM
What if they allow you to bestow elemntal immunity for short periods?
What if they allow you to bestow elemntal voulnarability for short periods?
What if they allow to just straight up do 200% more damage with your chosen element?

.

1) Not helpful for killing. Good for ToD part 2 and Enter the kobald lol
2) if its like 4x the damage maybe
3) 200% is not enough

Melee are supposed to be limited by hp, because heal scrolls are sold and SP pots estored they do not run out of HP like they should. This is where the imbalance comes from. They have been balancing around heal scrolls forever. They broke casters the day those went to the regular stores. Only way to really even it out would be to put SP pots in the regular vendor and make them the same price as HP pots. But that's not going to happen.

BurningDownTheHouse
10-13-2009, 03:44 AM
While true, the gap is too huge that fixing those simply with PrEs would be problematic (as that would mean that level 6, 12 and 18 represent huge power jumps).

This game is all about power jumps as it is, one more instance wont change anything major.
I don't think it's even possible anymore to balance this game for all calsses through all levels.

BurningDownTheHouse
10-13-2009, 03:49 AM
1) Not helpful for killing. Good for ToD part 2 and Enter the kobald lol
2) if its like 4x the damage maybe
3) 200% is not enough


Those are just thoughts, numbers can be changed.



Melee are supposed to be limited by hp, because heal scrolls are sold and SP pots estored they do not run out of HP like they should. This is where the imbalance comes from. They have been balancing around heal scrolls forever. They broke casters the day those went to the regular stores. Only way to really even it out would be to put SP pots in the regular vendor and make them the same price as HP pots. But that's not going to happen.

A caster that nukes alot will need healing just as much (if not more than) a melee does (Unless The nuking is enough to inta-kill, at which point melees will start crying that casters are overpowered. Rince and repeat :)).

Angelus_dead
10-13-2009, 04:02 AM
Epic should be harder. ToD is way way too easy.
If TOD is too easy, and I don't disagree, then TOD should be made harder.

The lacking difficulty of the recent Shavarath releases is actually a separate question from whether or not epic desert quests should involve stupidly-high moster stats.

Xalted_Vol
10-13-2009, 04:05 AM
We will be Epic when we are Demi Gods :)

FluffyCalico
10-13-2009, 04:14 AM
The lacking difficulty of the recent Shavarath releases is actually a separate question from whether or not epic desert quests should involve stupidly-high moster stats.

I said should be hard, I never said should be hard in a stupid way. I agree that Epic seems to be hard in the wrong way. But I don't want it easier, I want it hard in a more corect way.

Also why do no quests have like 500 little bastards with almost no hp that hit like trains that all bum rush you at the same time? This would give both casters and ranged a use.

GunboatDiplomat
10-13-2009, 04:48 AM
I'm sure we've all met the 'serial-killer DM' in pnp who delights in pitching players against impossible odds and revels in party wipes. They tend to have rather short lived gaming groups.

It sticks in my craw when I see 'epic hyenas' who are tougher than a whole group of adventurers. Its a frigging hyena, why does it have similar hit points to a raid boss like the Hound? Loads of games do this, 'elite wolves' in LOTRO or AoC that are impossible to beat unless you have a whole party beating on them at once. Its a cheap and easy way to make things more diffcult. Only it doesn't make it more difficult, it makes it more boring. The only thing it makes difficult is the suspension of disbelief

And its totally against the spirit of d&d and ddo - that theres a basic equivalence between you and a monster of a similar level. That you can take down all but the most dangerous of individual monsters by yourself.

Its easy to make an adventure far too difficult. Then hardly anyone wants to play it. As it stands I've no desire to even try the epic content. If I want to stand around all day holding down the mouse button slowly killing trash mobs dressed in rags who are immune to nearly everything and have more hit points than God, I'll go back to playing AoC. At least its got better graphics.

FluffyCalico
10-13-2009, 04:52 AM
Its easy to make an adventure far too difficult. Then hardly anyone wants to play it. As it stands I've no desire to even try the epic content. If I want to stand around all day holding down the mouse button slowly killing trash mobs dressed in rags who are immune to nearly everything and have more hit points than God, I'll go back to playing AoC. At least its got better graphics.

Epic most likely wasn't aimed at you. There are lots of people who have been wanting something to challenge a group. Soloing stuff on elite just doesn't do it for many people in a group game. They want to be challenged as a group. If epic is not for you, np there is lots of other easy stuff for you, and some more quests comming high level in the same mod. But don't whine because there going to be 5 whole quests in the game where people who want something real hard can go play in. While this might be hard in a boring way and need adjusting, hard it should stay. Just in a fun but very hard way instead.

zealous
10-13-2009, 05:15 AM
They finally add something that you can't pug on elite the first week it's out, and you want it to be made easier?

I know that it might be different for casuals like you, but powergamers don't really have any challenge in DDO atm.
I really hope the devs won't give in to the cries of the newbies and casuals on this one.
Dude, what you need to think about is the relations between:
A. Making content accessible for the majority of the population
B. The content being challenging
and
C. Having a large disparity between "haves" and "have-nots"

A. not applying does not imply B. applying ;)


Nope.
I ran it with my shuriken speced monk though, and man it was hard, I could barely contribute anything, nerf it!!! (No, I don't have a shuriken speced monk, I hope you get my point)
The amusing thing is that I don't think you get the point you eloquently demonstrate with this post. You can get a challenge in regular content, if you purposefully gimp yourself.


Epic most likely wasn't aimed at you. There are lots of people who have been wanting something to challenge a group. Soloing stuff on elite just doesn't do it for many people in a group game. They want to be challenged as a group. If epic is not for you, np there is lots of other easy stuff for you, and some more quests comming high level in the same mod. But don't whine because there going to be 5 whole quests in the game where people who want something real hard can go play in. While this might be hard in a boring way and need adjusting, hard it should stay. Just in a fun but very hard way instead.
It will be harder in that it requires more resources and better twink. It will be less challenging because its more or less just about the melee standing in place and swinging while the healer spams the heal button.

Angelus_dead
10-13-2009, 05:28 AM
If epic is not for you, np
No, if "epic" is well beyond the difficulty of level 19 quests set to Elite, then that is a problem. It indicates a serious misjudgement of who the content is aimed at (and is in direct conflict with how the epic mode was advertised when announced)

FluffyCalico
10-13-2009, 05:30 AM
No, if "epic" is well beyond the difficulty of level 19 quests set to Elite, then that is a problem. It indicates a serious misjudgement of who the content is aimed at (and is in direct conflict with how the epic mode was advertised when announced)

It shows how sad the level 19 quests on elite, the only problem is they have been nerfing stuff to hell for about 2 years and that quests really need to be harder accross the board. It is exactly why there are so many crys for a higher setting. And no its not a conflict on how epic mode was advertised. Epic mode was requested by many many as very hard, it was said to be hard and require well geared 20s and thats what it is. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't make it not what was asked for and advertised.

The problem is elite mode is way to easy and normal is a joke. I mean they took away over your level quest xp bounus because people were doing quests 6-7 levels higher than them. So by adding epic they can make those who want something hard happy and still leave normal sadly easy for those who don't

Borror0
10-13-2009, 05:34 AM
And no its not a conflict on how epic mode was advertised.
Wrong. (What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.)

FluffyCalico
10-13-2009, 05:35 AM
Wrong. (What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.)

Ok wrong
next

Oh and by the way from Ts post "have it be challenging" "All members of the party must be 20th level to enter on Epic difficulty"...
there is the evidence

Sorry if you don't like the truth.

Borror0
10-13-2009, 05:48 AM
Ok wrong
next
By this I assume you suggest that there has been no evidence provided to sustain our position? Well, that is demonstrably false (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2480711&postcount=16).

Oh and by the way from Ts post "have it be challenging" there is the evidence
Considering that she addressed to the playerbase at large, "challenging" can be interpreted in many ways and does not entail that it will be challenging to the hardcore players. Rather, in the context, it suggests that it will be "more challenging than a level 12 quest" which is quite a different statement.

Auran82
10-13-2009, 05:50 AM
unearth a flaw of DDO's combat (the combats get dull if they last too long because melee characters just stand there and press right mouse button).

Thats an easy fix, take away the ability to hold down the right mouse button and autoattack.

Instant involvement in combat again :D

(and some very happy mouse manufacturers)

FluffyCalico
10-13-2009, 05:53 AM
Considering that she addressed to the playerbase at large, "challenging" can be interpreted in many ways and does not entail that it will be challenging to the hardcore players. Rather, in the context, it suggests that it will be "more challenging than a level 12 quest" which is quite a different statement.

Not true she said it would provide a challenge to the level 20s as noone else can enter. She could not have been talking about level 15s as they can't even get in the door. And currently nothing in the game is a challange to a full party of level 20s. At least not ones that know what they are doing. She has to be talking to the level 20s as they are the only ones allowed in. The audience of who would be challenged is limited to those who can actually enter.

BurningDownTheHouse
10-13-2009, 06:08 AM
Not true she said it would provide a challenge to the level 20s as noone else can enter. She could not have been talking about level 15s as they can't even get in the door. And currently nothing in the game is a challange to a full party of level 20s. At least not ones that know what they are doing. She has to be talking to the level 20s as they are the only ones allowed in. The audience of who would be challenged is limited to those who can actually enter.

Getting to level 20 for a completly new player, that plays a lot will take around a month.
In that time, it is highly unlikely that said player will get the gear to be even marginally useful in those quests.
He can enter, and leave in total frustration.

zealous
10-13-2009, 06:09 AM
The problem is elite mode is way to easy and normal is a joke. I mean they took away over your level quest xp bounus because people were doing quests 6-7 levels higher than them. So by adding epic they can make those who want something hard happy and still leave normal sadly easy for those who don't
Yes, but you need to ask yourself why.

Is it because the quest is too easy or because your build+twink+companions are realtively powerful.

Then ask yourself why it's more important that it's accessible to a new player than for it to be challenging to you.

Can it be both accessible to a group full of untwinked newbies and challenging to a group of twinked to the teeth vets?

Looking at it objectively, is it really worth it if it's not accessible to large parts of the population?


Not true she said it would provide a challenge to the level 20s as noone else can enter. She could not have been talking about level 15s as they can't even get in the door. And currently nothing in the game is a challange to a full party of level 20s. At least not ones that know what they are doing. She has to be talking to the level 20s as they are the only ones allowed in. The audience of who would be challenged is limited to those who can actually enter.
I think someone needs to PUG more, esp low level pugging with new players. They might not be 20 yet but hopefully many will in aforseeable future.

I don't see how inflating stats will make things more challenging, it'll only put a higher threshold for viable AC/DC amount of healing...and time. Increasing thresholds generally leads to easier play.

GunboatDiplomat
10-13-2009, 06:11 AM
Epic most likely wasn't aimed at you. There are lots of people who have been wanting something to challenge a group. Soloing stuff on elite just doesn't do it for many people in a group game. They want to be challenged as a group. If epic is not for you, np there is lots of other easy stuff for you, and some more quests comming high level in the same mod. But don't whine because there going to be 5 whole quests in the game where people who want something real hard can go play in. While this might be hard in a boring way and need adjusting, hard it should stay. Just in a fun but very hard way instead.

I'm not sure why you think I like to solo things and thus epic is not for me, but I'd love to go back and experience the Desert quests again with a group, readjusted as a challenge to level 20 toons outfitted with green steel and raid loot. Theres many quests in the game that would be a lot of fun to experience in that way.

What they seem to have done though is produce a grind thats far too difficult in the wrong way, removed 90% of tactical options and make combat similar to how you fight 'epic' or 'elite' mobs in other mmo's. Pull one everyone beat on it for 5 minutes. Pull another. Ad nauseum. Oops we pulled three - party wipe. Ok thats an exaggeration as the quest geography and structure are still far better than any other mmo. A 20th level arcane caster should not find it so difficult to kill a frigging hyena though, Raiyum I can understand but a hyena?

Whats next, demigod rats?

Mjesko
10-13-2009, 06:12 AM
So I wanted to say very good job on trying to put epic level encounters into the game turbine, but you are forgetting a very large piece of the equasion. you are not putting in the epic spells. Without these you are basicaly making divine and arcane casters completely useless in these quest and this is being very unfair to them. You should not give the monsters such power without giving the chance to the PC casters as well because without the epic spells they are not even going to stand a chance without many death recalls and reruns. How about putting some of these spells in for the casters.

I think epic spells are currently not needed in DDO, because many of the basic D&D spells are still missing and these spells would improve the power of casters much more than the epic spells.

For example:

Evards Black Tentacles (Wizard 4 / Powerful version of web)
Orb of (Element) (Wizard 4 / Castel level x 1d6 (max 15d6) against a single target without a saving throw)
Assay Resistance (Wizard 4 / Caster level + 10 for the next spell to penetrate the SR)
Dimensional Anchor (Wizard 4 / Prevents teleportation of a single target)
Reciprocal Gyre (Wizard 5 / Target takes 1d6 damage per level of spells affecting it)
Fire Shield, Mass (Wizard 5 / As Fire Shield but affects multiple targets)
Acid Storm (Wizard 6 / Caster level x 1d6 (max 15d6) acid damage with the same radius as a fireball)
Stone Body (Wizard 6 / Powerful version of Stoneskin, but can only affects the caster)
Forcecage (Wizard 7 / Target can not attack but can not be attacked, too)
Bestow Curse, Greater (Wizard 8 / Powerful version of Bestow Curse)
Prismatic Wall (Wizard 8 / As Wall of Fire but with prismatic effects)
Iron Body (Wizard 8 / Powerful version of Stone Body, but can only affect the caster)
Maze (Wizard 8 / Target can not attack but can not be attacked, too)
Protection from Spells (Wizard 8 / + 8 resitance bonus to saves)
Time Stop (Wizard 9 / Powerful version of Haste, but can only affect the caster)

zealous
10-13-2009, 06:20 AM
Slightly related...

What is preferable?
A. Giving mobs blanket immunities to instant death effects
B. Increasing the cooldown of instant death spells to 30s(nerf!!!)

Now under A I never get to use FoD, under B I get to use it some of the time and additionally chosing when to use it is challenging.

A is not a nerf but is more detrimental than B.


What is preferable?
A. Giving mobs blanket immunities to instant death effects
B. Giving mobs a x% save against vorpal specifically, based on HP. Balanced in such a way that y high tier DPS characters will kill the mob z% faster than y characters swinging vorpals.

A makes vorpal useless, B makes vorpal situationally useful as it provides a minimum amount of time to kill.

FluffyCalico
10-13-2009, 06:21 AM
What they seem to have done though is produce a grind thats far too difficult in the wrong way, removed 90% of tactical options and make combat similar to how you fight 'epic' or 'elite' mobs in other mmo's. Pull one everyone beat on it for 5 minutes. Pull another. Ad nauseum. Oops we pulled three - party wipe. Ok thats an exaggeration as the quest geography and structure are still far better than any other mmo. A 20th level arcane caster should not find it so difficult to kill a frigging hyena though, Raiyum I can understand but a hyena?

Whats next, demigod rats?

I see how you are using other MMOs as a bad thing. And I agree the "boring" part of epic needs to go away and find a challanging way that is not boring. However, look at the successful MMOs, as you pointed out they all have this, as you must give your very motivated players something to do or you will loose them. But yes I would prefer that something not be quite so grindish. But then if it weren't those who play 10000 hrs a week would be done in no time and then have nothing to do again. What I don't understand is this game has no pvp to speak of so whats the big deal if some of us who are willing to grind it go and get some special gear? And don't say because they will destroy non-epic content as anyone who can grind that stuff already does.

And for the person who said I need to pug more, I pug probably 90% of the things I do including most raids. I usually find 1 guildie or friend and just invite 4 others who click on the lfm. err lets not get into a defination of a pug war. Its mostly a pug 4/5ths pug.

Borror0
10-13-2009, 06:38 AM
Thats an easy fix, take away the ability to hold down the right mouse button and autoattack.

Instant involvement in combat again :D
I believe this was said as a tongue-in-cheek comment but I'll address it anyhow, just in case. A common theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Theory_of_Fun_for_Game_Design) is that "fun is what happens when a player encounters a game system, is challenged by it, learns it, masters it, and then takes it to the next level." However, there is nothing to overcome in continually clicking while standing still. The brain activity is, in fact, very low and all you have to do is press the button at a pace everyone is capable of keeping up.

Rather than being fun, it is rather redundant and borderline annoying.

She could not have been talking about level 15s as they can't even get in the door.
I'm not sure why you think that has anything to do with the post you are replying to...

GunboatDiplomat
10-13-2009, 06:38 AM
I see how you are using other MMOs as a bad thing. And I agree the "boring" part of epic needs to go away and find a challanging way that is not boring. However, look at the successful MMOs, as you pointed out they all have this, as you must give your very motivated players something to do or you will loose them. But yes I would prefer that something not be quite so grindish. But then if it weren't those who play 10000 hrs a week would be done in no time and then have nothing to do again. What I don't understand is this game has no pvp to speak of so whats the big deal if some of us who are willing to grind it go and get some special gear? And don't say because they will destroy non-epic content as anyone who can grind that stuff already does.

Because they will destroy non-epic content. Nah I'm just kidding.

Its because if they keep epic similar to how they have it now it means I'm never going to be able to enjoy running the desert quests on my level 20 toons. And neither are most of the players. I've no problem if you and a small number of other people enjoy it. I don't even care if you get the best loot. But I do care if I'm not able to enjoy the new epic quests because the devs got the balance waaay off and made it no fun at all for the rest of us.

Maybe 'nightmare' difficulty for you guys and a rebalanced 'epic' for the rest of us?

FluffyCalico
10-13-2009, 06:44 AM
Maybe 'nightmare' difficulty for you guys and a rebalanced 'epic' for the rest of us?

I would support a level 20 elite box for choice #4 if they leave epic as #5

Would this put us in agreement and make you happy? Trying to find some middle ground as the more people we have happy the better the game will be.

zealous
10-13-2009, 06:53 AM
And for the person who said I need to pug more, I pug probably 90% of the things I do including most raids. I usually find 1 guildie or friend and just invite 4 others who click on the lfm. err lets not get into a defination of a pug war. Its mostly a pug 4/5ths pug.
That's what I used to do on my old acc too, get a solid core and then fill up with randoms. Thing is though, for many quests 1 competently played, well built and twinked character is enough to carry a random group, moreso if you have at least 1 more group member that's reliable.

One other thing I would do is to keep my eye open for groups that seemed "gimped". I would also leave the holy greater banes on the shelf, adjust my twink to the level of the group and play take a more passive role than usually. Way more challenging and exciting than regular grouping imo.

Probelm with the "second way" was that even in the selected pugs most people were vets and had at least some twink so It wasn't as challenging as joining a random lowbie pug of "froobs" fresh of the boat is.


Point being that content is and should be geared for new players, vets can still get a challenge by purposefully gimping themselves. It's the same ol story as "create a PD server". ;)

That said, I understand and to some extent share your point of view. It is kinda frustrating when you can't play to the best of your abilities and still have a challenge.

Still, there are better ways than inflating stats. Super nerfing pretty much everything would be better imo, that will probably not happen due to the outrage it would cause though. =P

GunboatDiplomat
10-13-2009, 06:56 AM
I would support a level 20 elite box for choice #4 if they leave epic as #5

Would this put us in agreement and make you happy? Trying to find some middle ground as the more people we have happy the better the game will be.

I'd have no problem with that.

sirgog
10-13-2009, 07:31 AM
Just because some developer decided to do something does not mean it "should" be that way. Developers can make mistakes, and epic mode is one. It is a mistake for them to target the epic mode of midlevel quests as more than slightly above that of naturally level 19-20 quests


You personally don't like the idea of making Epic mode Epic, and would prefer that Epic mode be replaced by more standard very high level (18-20) content, we get that.

However, DDO needs a true endgame so that level 20s have meaningful challenges. And it makes a lot of sense in Turbine's business model to have significant parts of endgame take place in adventure packs that Premium account holders with level 20s may well not otherwise purchase.

Every player with a level 17+ character probably owns Amrath and the Vale of Twilight - many have likely bypassed Menechtarun. This provides Turbine an opportunity to sell the Mod 3 content, which would be less likely to happen if these quests were not critical to endgame.



Wrong, as already covered in the other thread. Shroud elite was NEVER a progression step. Nothing dropped from Shroud elite that you couldn't have gotten elsewhere. The only theoretical benefit to Shroud elite was a higher chance of random junk with high min level, which is not at all what the loot motivation for Shroud was.

Compared to Shroud normal, Shroud elite actually gave less greensteel ingredients per minute. But in this new system, "epic" Menechetarun will be the ONLY way to get this new tier of loot.

In Mod 6, items *did* drop in Shroud Elite that dropped almost nowhere else (except for the +1 loot chest in Let Sleeping Dust Lie Elite and as Shroud end rewards). +5 Vorpals (RR), +5 WoPs (RR), and a few niche items that were of less use but were still unique (+5 Deathblock Mithril Fullplate, RR).

These would start dropping in larger numbers in Mod 7 and 8 as we got more level 17+ quests.

People that wanted to farm for those items as much as possible would tend to run Sleeping Dust to ransack once a week (10 lvl19 chests), Shroud Elite 1-3 6 or 7 times a week (48 or 56 level 19 chests) and Shroud Elite completions 2.5 times a week (30 chests plus about 20 end reward choices, all from level 19 loot tables).

In short, the vast majority of their chances at these items came from running Shroud Elite.

In addition, it's not like the epic loot spoiled so far is superior to Greensteel overall.

sirgog
10-13-2009, 07:54 AM
I said should be hard, I never said should be hard in a stupid way. I agree that Epic seems to be hard in the wrong way. But I don't want it easier, I want it hard in a more corect way.

Also why do no quests have like 500 little bastards with almost no hp that hit like trains that all bum rush you at the same time? This would give both casters and ranged a use.


Finally, someone I agree with 100%.

Where are the 400hp enemy archers, firing triple-negative Greensteel bows at us, from platforms that melees cannot reach for an extended period of time?

Where are the melee brutes that hit as hard as Sanyanassi (name probably wrong; he's the boss of Monastery) with a Will save in the vicinity of 10, that we can tell to 'sit'?



Here's a poorly designed 'epic' encounter:

4 Gnoll Melees, 10000hp each, attacks at +66 for ~70 damage, DR 15/-, Resist All 200, Epic Ward.


Here's a better designed one:

1 Gnoll Gladiator, 8000hp, attacks at +66 for ~70 damage, DR 15/-, uses Trip and Sunder every cooldown, Resist All (Dispellable) 200, Lesser Epic Ward (as rednamed immunities but can be dispelled), has Greater Heroism and Freedom of Movement precast on him, all buffs at caster level 24.
6 Gnoll Rabble, 450hp (each), attacks at +55 for ~40 damage, uses Sprint Boost - 50% on every cooldown, Evasion, Sneak Attack 13d6, Resist All 50 (dispellable). Special Attack: Once per 10 seconds, can make a melee attack (standard swing time), +75 for ~40 damage. (Gnoll is activating a True Strike clicky). This is used after any attack that is a glancing blow.
1 Gnoll Master Summoner, 4500hp, casts Summon Monster 9 on aggro (three Hezrous, no better than our ones), same buffs as Gladiator plus Fire Shield Cold (retributive damage 10d10, can be dispelled). Casts Oitluke's Freezing Sphere, Horrid Wilting, Disintegrate, Chain Lightning, Acid Fog, Greater Dispelling, Symbol: Stunning and Power Word: Blind; caster level 24, Empower Spell only metamagic active.
2 Gnoll Snipers, 630hp (each), attacks from range where possible (Archer AI), attacks at +43 for ~40 damage, once per ten seconds fires an arrow imbued with a Delayed Blast Fireball (~275 damage, low Reflex save DC), can cast Invisibility (self only) at will.

Yargore
10-13-2009, 10:02 AM
Looking at it objectively, is it really worth it if it's not accessible to large parts of the population?

It is accessible to everyone. Yea sure, some casuals that wanna do it might have a hard time because they have **** builds and **** gear, but that makes perfect sense if you ask me.
Giving people a goal that is hard to reach motivates them to become better.

Having a good toon with good gear and playing with good people should not only be rewarded with faster completion times.

I can't believe I have to write this on an american forum!

Dretharis
10-13-2009, 12:44 PM
It is accessible to everyone. Yea sure, some casuals that wanna do it might have a hard time because they have **** builds and **** gear, but that makes perfect sense if you ask me.
Giving people a goal that is hard to reach motivates them to become better.

Having a good toon with good gear and playing with good people should not only be rewarded with faster completion times.

I can't believe I have to write this on an american forum!

The problem isn't necessarily the accessibility of the epic difficulty on a resource/commitment level, but the design of the mobs themselves.

Ask yourself - does the stupidly inflated HP of mobs make them more difficult, or more tedious? Sure, maybe they serve to drain resources, but there's no meaningful limit to the amount of resources you can bring into the quest. Increasing their HP and adding blanket immunities doesn't increase the difficulty - it just makes the dungeon take longer, and restricts the variety of useful characters.

Sure, it also prevents some players with severely limited resource and gear access from completing the quest. However, wouldn't those same players find the quests impossible if the difficulty of trash mobs was increased as well? If anything, suggestions of increasing mob DPS and varying mob tactics while decreasing HP will make it more difficult for players without end-game gear; if they're not built well and don't have items to mitigate damage such as firestorm greaves, they'll have a tough time facing the above suggestions unless they're able to utilize excellent planning and tactics.

By removing blanket immunities from most mobs we'd refer to as trash, increasing the variety abilities they utilize, decreasing their HP, and increasing overall DPS, we'd have a much more well-rounded endgame, and it'd likely be much more interesting/exciting. Further risk is added, discouraging sloppy play, but the decreased HP allows you to mow through them much more quickly.

While I'd consider it somewhat of a negligible point, it also seems to be much closer to the actual feel of PnP - the current trend of "inflate HP, give it blanket immunities and SR, but pass out crazy gear to balance it out" seems more like a mimic of mainstream MMO's than anything.

Jonny_D
10-13-2009, 12:54 PM
We have yet to see what a skilled group of people who play together alot (not necessarily guildies) with all of their sweet gear from grinding shroud/refuge sub-t with all +3 tomes and ToD blinged can do in epic. I for 1 dont want see any "sorc solo'd epic dq" threads for a long time. Casters light it up in regular quests, raids not so much, the opposite is true of melee. I think the "wizard" conserve mana tactics work better in epic even when practiced by sorcs. And now sorc is not necessarily the default caster in a group. I still hear in ToD, we cant take just 1 wizard, b/c they will run out of mana. Now spell selection will matter more since both types of arcanes will be recalling to refuel.

All that being said, the system in place is not ideal for nuker casters, or melee alike. I dont really want to recall 10 times to repair weapons on my melee, or get sp on my caster. maybe shrines should reset every 15/20/30/30min... mins after use and on epic repair weapons/gear a little say 20%, higher if you have a good repair skill or item damage enhancement.

Jonny_D
10-13-2009, 12:57 PM
One other point about recalling out on epic... atleast if its longer than every 5 min you can do a bloodstone run ;)

Zenako
10-13-2009, 01:36 PM
One other point about recalling out on epic... atleast if its longer than every 5 min you can do a bloodstone run ;)

Lol Ransack Bloodstone chests WHILE doing EPIC Wiz King...:D

zealous
10-14-2009, 04:07 AM
It is accessible to everyone. Yea sure, some casuals that wanna do it might have a hard time because they have **** builds and **** gear, but that makes perfect sense if you ask me.
Giving people a goal that is hard to reach motivates them to become better.

Having a good toon with good gear and playing with good people should not only be rewarded with faster completion times.

I can't believe I have to write this on an american forum!
Some people might prefer having fun and smelling the roses rather than (5:40) being frustrated that they get no hard to reach goal, yah? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koQFJ_YqvsA)
;)

FluffyCalico
10-14-2009, 04:12 AM
Some people might prefer having fun and smelling the roses rather than (5:40) being frustrated that they get no hard to reach goal, yah? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koQFJ_YqvsA)
;)

And those people are not the target audience of epic. There are other things being worked on for them.

zealous
10-14-2009, 05:05 AM
And those people are not the target audience of epic. There are other things being worked on for them.
If by "those people" you mean the people getting frustrated at things being to easy, and by "other things" mean other MMOs I would agree with you.

In DDO you can already get content that's both hard tedious and challenging. You can even skip the hard and tedious and only keep the challenge, just don't use twink and limited resources, mkay. ;) (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=186945)

FluffyCalico
10-14-2009, 05:10 AM
In DDO you can already get content that's both hard tedious and challenging. You can even skip the hard and tedious and only keep the challenge, just don't use twink and limited resources, mkay. ;) (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=186945)

Intentionally making yourself suck does not make the game hard or challenging. It makes you suck. They are not the same thing. Intentionally making yourself suck because the game is NOT capable of providing a challenge, unless you do, is not fun.

Many want the game to challenge them to be the best they can be. Not bore them into sucking on purpose for some excightment.

Dretharis
10-14-2009, 05:29 AM
Many want the game to challenge them to be the best they can be. Not bore them into sucking on purpose for some excightment.

Then the content should be challenging, not tedious.

FluffyCalico
10-14-2009, 05:34 AM
Then the content should be challenging, not tedious.

I would vote for that.

Shade
10-14-2009, 06:36 AM
I think people are thinking epic PnP and getting the wrong idea.

Epic is just the name of the new difficulty setting beyond elite.

It's meant to be much more difficult then elite. Not the same as normal, but post level20 like your thinking. Thats not here yet, and not coming for a long time. Once it is here, it should be as you expect... New levels, spells, new monsters, new challenges,
but nothing crazy.. But at the same time, we should have the option to run epic level quests, 21+, on epic mode.

Enemies in the epic mode quests do not cast epic spells. So Turbine isn't forgetting to add them for us, neither side is getting them. Infact enemy arcane casters continue to cast at a level weaker then a lvl20 player sorcerer. Tho divine type casters seem to have the interesting ability to always generate critical hits from cometfalls and blade barriers which players lack heh.

The immunities do limit casters.. But they make sense, the monsters got smarter.. As smart as players are, and put on some immunity gear. I mean they don't really have any immunities players cannot get, not nearly.
Basicly there as any player wearing 2 items:
Kundarak Boots (tho actually they only gain a portion of what the boots provide)
Silver Flame Talisman, (tho with unlimited charges, a WF type player generally enjoys near unlimited charges anyways)

FluffyCalico
10-14-2009, 06:44 AM
I think people are thinking epic PnP and getting the wrong idea.

Epic is just the name of the new difficulty setting beyond elite.

It's meant to be much more difficult then elite. Not the same as normal, but post level20 like your thinking. Thats not here yet, and not coming for a long time. Once it is here, it should be as you expect... New levels, spells, new monsters, new challenges,
but nothing crazy.. But at the same time, we should have the option to run epic level quests, 21+, on epic mode.

Enemies in the epic mode quests do not cast epic spells. So Turbine isn't forgetting to add them for us, neither side is getting them. Infact enemy arcane casters continue to cast at a level weaker then a lvl20 player sorcerer. Tho divine type casters seem to have the interesting ability to always generate critical hits from cometfalls and blade barriers which players lack heh.

The immunities do limit casters.. But they make sense, the monsters got smarter.. As smart as players are, and put on some immunity gear. I mean they don't really have any immunities players cannot get, not nearly.
Basicly there as any player wearing 2 items:
Kundarak Boots (tho actually they only gain a portion of what the boots provide)
Silver Flame Talisman, (tho with unlimited charges, a WF type player generally enjoys near unlimited charges anyways)

Sadly Mad already posted they are nerfing epic mode. I expect the challenge is going to be gone. I hope it will still be hard just more fun... but I am expecting a huge hit from the nerf bat.

Tyrande
10-14-2009, 09:52 AM
Uh, okay, step back and look at what you're asking:
"Hey, you devs made this content too hard, so you need to make my character more damaging so I can handle it"

That's rather perverse reasoning, as it is attempting to bandaid a mistake they should simply avoid committing, by not making the content so hard in the first place.

Well then, the monsters should not have crazy HPs and crazy immunities then, and take out the +6 or +7 weapons as they are post level 20 epic weapons by definition.

Like some people say on this thread, make the monsters smarter (shooting from a ledge inaccessible by melees) and more varieties instead of just the same old monsters but with crazy stats. May be detonation bats from "Vision of Destruction" but make them tomb bats instead. Instead of making them with crazy stats, how about making them level 20 monsters but equipped with Shroud weapons and Reaver's Refuge armor, and casters/shamans with higher level spells that casters in our range do cast?

Perhaps, make some of them use the fighter feat, improved disarm, which puts the weapon back into the inventory somewhere. Full inventory causes the item to go into the overflow bin. Once M. Disjunction is fixed, have the casters in there casts that first before they fight any melee players. Have them cast Otto's Irresistible Dance and then Energy Drain/Enervation if not warforged, and casts heightened Mind Fog + heightened touch of idiocy/feeblemind if warforged to disable and then some high powered damage spells like max + emp polar ray and then Power Word: Stun, Power Word: Kill if the melee players HP reached below 300HP.

FluffyCalico
10-14-2009, 10:01 AM
Well then, the monsters should not have crazy HPs and crazy immunities then, and take out the +6 or +7 weapons as they are post level 20 epic weapons by definition.

.

Again you are getting stuck on PnP definations. They have already said that +6 and +7 weapons from these quests will NOT break epic DR. Meaning they are not epic level weapons. Just regular ones with a bigger + in front.

Tyrande
10-14-2009, 10:08 AM
Again you are getting stuck on PnP definations. They have already said that +6 and +7 weapons from these quests will NOT break epic DR. Meaning they are not epic level weapons. Just regular ones with a bigger + in front.

Well, then, we need spells with bigger + and damage up front or we need persistent damage spells that can be recast that doesn't drain SP, or perhaps only drain it once per rest.

Why are these +6 or +7 weapons not perverse according to your definition?

zealous
10-14-2009, 10:25 AM
Why are these +6 or +7 weapons not perverse according to your definition?
Maybe because we already effectively have +9 weapons in game?

Vendra
10-14-2009, 02:47 PM
Also why do no quests have like 500 little bastards with almost no hp that hit like trains that all bum rush you at the same time? This would give both casters and ranged a use.

Because the lag monster would come out and eat the whole server should they try something like that. A dev tried to do something like that at the last beta server shut down party where they spawned as many kobolds as he could in the gianthold. Man was it fun but I could actually feel the servers pain.

Vendra
10-14-2009, 03:54 PM
I have seen many good thoughts in this thread but it seems to have devolved into a hardcore vs casual discussion and this was not my intent. My original intent was to point out the large discrepancy that the current epic has when you compare a caster to a melee. Right now it seems a melee has a far greater advantage than a caster in the new epic mode because of the way epic is implemented. My suggestion was to add the epic spells to help out the casters but I do realize that might be a little over the top. I do like the suggestion someone added about many of the other spells that could be added which are not epic but would help, I would certainly love to see more spells made available. But I was not meaning for this to be a hardcore vs casual discussion.

I consider myself a casual player and one thing that I love about DDO is that I can be a casual player and still get amazing loot. I can actually play a couple of hours a day and get really good loot that honestly puts me on par with most hardcore players. Sure I only have one greensteel on my cleric but I actually like playing the healer role so its really all I need and I am happy with it. Thats one of the things I so love about DDO is that its not like other MMO's out there where I have to play 8 hours in a raid to have like a 5% chance of getting uber loot. DDO's version of hardcore will never be what many of us have been used to in the past, and you know what it never should be. DDO is good because its different (and because its D&D which I love).

That being said I agree with the one main point that epic should be something that capped toons can do for that extra challenge, and it should be a good challenge. Just over inflating HP and adding immunity to almost every kind of magic is really the wrong answer because it really does hinder the magic users more. You could have a hardcore magic user with awsome loot and they would still find the epic mode to be a far greater hinderence than a melee would. A balance just has to be found, that's all.

PS. If you liked my thread, I would love some + rep :)