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TheJusticar
10-12-2009, 02:23 PM
Devs,

My gripe: Really. Not an elitist statement. No bad blood intended. Most new players who aren't familiar with D&D and don't take the time to learn perhaps aren't aware that multiclassing will probably ruin their toon -- at least until they re-roll/reincarnate. Many other MMOs there's no multiclassing as it is in DDO and since there's no concept of stats (in the D&D sense) if you choose two professions/classes there's no risk whatsoever of gimping your toon -- in fact, some MMOs will let you switch secondary classes at will. I'm a fairly inclusive person and have met really promising new players; however, the sheer quantity of gimped builds around is really disheartening. Again, not critiquing their builds from a min-max perspective but that 2wiz/2sorc/2clr has really no chance of being good at any. The 4wiz/4pal elf (60HPs, 20 AC) is not a very viable toon. An no these aren't so-called "experimental" builds built on purpose by teh ewbers, these are people who have no clue how to play the game and don't really understand the mechanics of the game.

My suggestion: please check if a player has at least one toon lvl 16+ on any server. If not, make them choose a pre-built path and do not allow them to multiclass (or give them a very harsh warning "IF YOU DO THIS YOU WILL DAMAGE YOUR CHARACTER PERMANENTLY").

Though this is no guarantee that they will suck at playing that character it at least assures that that build will at least fulfill the expected role and thus making life slightly less frustrating to those of us who like to run pugs.

Godspeed.

Therigar
10-12-2009, 02:33 PM
Poorly thought out idea that is entirely without justification.

New players are likely to make all sorts of mistakes -- as is equally true of experienced players. Often the best way to learn is to make mistakes.

Mercules
10-12-2009, 02:36 PM
Then next we can have a check and unless you have a level 16+ Cleric you are not allowed to create a Barbarian. :)

Let them make awful characters. Eventually they will realize what they are doing to themselves and try again. We had to advise our friend to take Rogue as his first class instead of 3 levels in when he had issues disabling traps. We as a community can maybe advise them to look for synergy between classes or check the forums for builds.

They should be allowed to multi-class but even larger warning messages on the leveling up could be added. Then again I do tech support for a living. Do you know how many people just click "Yes" to a warning that states, "Removal of this program will delete all of your data." then call asking what happened to their data? :)

TheJusticar
10-12-2009, 02:37 PM
Poorly thought out idea that is entirely without justification.

New players are likely to make all sorts of mistakes -- as is equally true of experienced players. Often the best way to learn is to make mistakes.

Not a valid argument in a group-based, role-based game. If this was a solo game, you'd be right, but it's not. Quite the opposite.

Oreg
10-12-2009, 02:38 PM
Disagreed. It's all part of the fun.....

Otherwise it would be work.

Thrudh
10-12-2009, 02:44 PM
It's just a game dude...

We all made mistakes... I rerolled several times, and shelved several gimp characters to mule status.

It's part of the learning process...

Just relax... Don't do quests over your head in PUGs, and you'll be fine. I saw you moaning about a bad WW on elite with a bunch of level 4 noobs. Don't do WW on elite with a bunch of level 4 PUGs. Problem solved.

TheJusticar
10-12-2009, 02:44 PM
Disagreed. It's all part of the fun.....

Otherwise it would be work.

Fun for who?

Minor_Threat
10-12-2009, 02:48 PM
dumbest suggestion EVAR.

yes, disable one of the most interesting parts of DDO for new players because they might make a mistake.

boldarblood
10-12-2009, 02:50 PM
Horrible idea. Not signed. Deal with it.

TheJusticar
10-12-2009, 02:51 PM
It's just a game dude...

We all made mistakes... I rerolled several times, and shelved several gimp characters to mule status.

It's part of the learning process...

Just relax... Don't do quests over your head in PUGs, and you'll be fine. I saw you moaning about a bad WW on elite with a bunch of level 4 noobs. Don't do WW on elite with a bunch of level 4 PUGs. Problem solved.

I think a lot of people are missing the point that this is first and foremost a GROUP-BASED game. It's not about a person having fun with builds, it's about fulfilling a role in a group. Your decisions as a player do affect the group (i.e. other people). I'm glad that you're having fun with a gimped build from the get-go, just be aware of it and be aware that you'll be helping your group exactly zero.

Godspeed.

Inspire
10-12-2009, 02:52 PM
I probably wouldnt be the player I am today if I didnt learn from my early mistakes.

Inspire
10-12-2009, 02:53 PM
It's not about a person having fun with builds, it's about fulfilling a role in a group.

I simply agree to disagree.

Oreg
10-12-2009, 02:54 PM
Fun for who?

The new people playing. I have no doubt that it is frustrating for you as you race to cap yet another character but for the new people it is all part of what makes DDO good.

BTW, your sig says July 2009. Is this when you first started playing? I am curious.

Impaqt
10-12-2009, 03:00 PM
There is no better way to learn than to makea mistake or 2.



/VERY Not Signed.

oberon131313
10-12-2009, 03:02 PM
I think the fact that you havn't had a single agreement should tell you just how bad this idea is.

Mercules
10-12-2009, 03:02 PM
This post has prompted my new SIG. Word.

Cedwin
10-12-2009, 03:06 PM
I think a lot of people are missing the point that this is first and foremost a GROUP-BASED game. It's not about a person having fun with builds, it's about fulfilling a role in a group.

I think a lot of people are missing the point that this is first and foremost a group-based GAME. It's not about merely fulfilling a role, it's about having fun in a game.

Most players will laugh off a party wipe, except for the players racing to end game who cry about the smallest bit of XP lost. It all comes down to different playstyles and what a person considers fun. Those who have fun racing to the end, those who have fun enjoying the social aspect, those who love end game raiding, those who just want to hang out in the PvP pits and own noobs, or those who love rolling new builds over and over. The beauty of this game is it lets you do any of these things, you just need to find like minded players to run with.

KoboldKiller
10-12-2009, 03:09 PM
I agree with the opposition here. I get your point but you can't learn if you don't try.

Besides I love it when the 2barb/2 sorc/1 rogue joins the party.

Largo_Kyber
10-12-2009, 03:09 PM
Definitely /not signed

You want to place a control over how others build their toons?!?

This is DDO! Land of the Froobs, Home of the F2Pers. I personally find the 32 hitpoint, raging, greatsword wielding, 2wiz/2 sorc/2 cleric who zergs forth to instant death- one of the funniest things in this game. Enough deaths and soon they will tire of living their DDO life as a ghost waiting for a rez and will rebuild and reasearch good builds.

If not- then they wont make it to 20 and we shouldn't worry about them anyway.

Let people make gimped builds all day long- it only adds to the humor and makes YOU that much more UBER!

Long live Batman!

Drimsdale
10-12-2009, 03:13 PM
It's possible for a player to be new to DDO but not D&D, and your "Lock multiclassing away without a L16+" plan doesn't account for that at all.

Grimgore
10-12-2009, 03:20 PM
I see where you are going, but like the others, I have to disagree. Like every flavor of the month build (the "Batman" was awesome, just never needed FP) it comes with experience and player desire. For every bardbarian warchanter (:D), there will be 500 failed builds that people will try.

It's their two slots man, let them make the mistakes so they can learn.

Rabbi_Hordo
10-12-2009, 03:24 PM
I think a lot of people are missing the point that this is first and foremost a GROUP-BASED game. It's not about a person having fun with builds, it's about fulfilling a role in a group. Your decisions as a player do affect the group (i.e. other people). I'm glad that you're having fun with a gimped build from the get-go, just be aware of it and be aware that you'll be helping your group exactly zero.

Godspeed.

I understand and appreciate your point...but I must agree that it should not be BANNED.
Perhaps a more explanatory message upon level-up, sure, but not banned.

Personally, I enjoy the completely insane ideas the new folks are coming up with. I reminds me of some of the old PnP tournaments we would go to in the '80s where you could play using characters generated for the adventure by the writers of the adventure and were randomly and blindly given to the players. Often the parties that were ridiculous in terms of what we would consider "properly organized" and many of the characters had bizarre multi-classing that would make one think it had to be a joke. A party of 2 wizards, a ranger, a thief and a cleric/thief (***?) and we need to take out a dragon...just pour on the sauce and watch me barbecue. But we got through it and had fun.

I understand that you may not be having fun having these builds disrupting your playtime, so don't accept them into the parties you create. I love the wierd and unusual and frequently raid with the first 12 that come my way and usually complete. Shroud with no clerics but 2 bards and 4 rangers? No problem with me! Away we go! Or my favorite Shroud of all time had nobody over 250 HPs...all casters and bards and one rogue decided to come at the last minute...loved it.

I fully get the concept of helping the party out, but sometimes it can be a real hoot to let the player figure out how to succeed with such a "gimped" character or party. I have yet to find any quest in the game that requires super-perfect-toons and parties crafted par excellence to be completed on Normal or Hard...Elite, well, that can be difficult but it can be done.

Adamidozz
10-12-2009, 03:25 PM
How about "allow new players play pre-bulit supa-easy fighter only"?

Seems about right.

Thrudh
10-12-2009, 03:31 PM
I think a lot of people are missing the point that this is first and foremost a GROUP-BASED game. It's not about a person having fun with builds, it's about fulfilling a role in a group. Your decisions as a player do affect the group (i.e. other people). I'm glad that you're having fun with a gimped build from the get-go, just be aware of it and be aware that you'll be helping your group exactly zero.

Godspeed.

I'm saying that probably EVERY ONE of us made bad builds in the past... Contributed the best we could, and after dying 7 times in multiple quests like your example player, we rerolled to be better...

They will learn too... just like we did...

NinetyNineTails
10-12-2009, 03:51 PM
I think the underlying issue here is that DDO is somewhat unusual in how easy it is to gimp your character, and how early in the process this can be accomplished, and how irreversible it can be, and how non-transparent all of this can be to new players.

It's not an EVE-level learning curve, but it's pretty unfriendly. Any game that wants to grow and succeed needs to be able to have new players come in and have fun. Gimped DDO characters are so gimped and it's so easy to do, I don't like to think about how many new players who might have become solid players contributing to the game just left because they don't want to fight the game.

I don't think the OP's suggestion is the right way to address this issue. In many ways, the flexibility and wide-open option space of DDO's character building system is one of the game's strengths. But it would be good to have some way for new players to approach that system more gradually.

One of the problems is that the character path system is supposed to be that tool for new players to use to avoid having to deal with many of the system's subtleties right off the bat. But all we vets know that the paths are, by and large, horrifically gimped themselves. Offering new players something that promises to let them play without having to understand the character system up front is good, but then offering them Deepwood Sniper is fail.

My suggestion would be to revise the offered paths into good, solid starting builds, a la that 'starting builds' post that newbies rightly get directed to. Then newbies can be pointed at the paths as 'if you don't want the half hour Char Builds 101 lecture, pick one of those. They don't suck'.

klobbermeister
10-12-2009, 03:53 PM
It's possible for a player to be new to DDO but not D&D, and your "Lock multiclassing away without a L16+" plan doesn't account for that at all.

QFMFT! Seriously, this idea is replete with LOSE...

Minor_Threat
10-12-2009, 03:59 PM
...

While I don't think this is necessary, I do think it would help many players and lead to them being long time players which is good for DDO.

The starter builds need explained better, built better, and there needs to be more of them. I think there should be links in character creation to the compendium for each class so that more in depth info is available.

TheJusticar
10-12-2009, 04:01 PM
I think the underlying issue here is that DDO is somewhat unusual in how easy it is to gimp your character, and how early in the process this can be accomplished, and how irreversible it can be, and how non-transparent all of this can be to new players.

It's not an EVE-level learning curve, but it's pretty unfriendly. Any game that wants to grow and succeed needs to be able to have new players come in and have fun. Gimped DDO characters are so gimped and it's so easy to do, I don't like to think about how many new players who might have become solid players contributing to the game just left because they don't want to fight the game.

I don't think the OP's suggestion is the right way to address this issue. In many ways, the flexibility and wide-open option space of DDO's character building system is one of the game's strengths. But it would be good to have some way for new players to approach that system more gradually.

One of the problems is that the character path system is supposed to be that tool for new players to use to avoid having to deal with many of the system's subtleties right off the bat. But all we vets know that the paths are, by and large, horrifically gimped themselves. Offering new players something that promises to let them play without having to understand the character system up front is good, but then offering them Deepwood Sniper is fail.

My suggestion would be to revise the offered paths into good, solid starting builds, a la that 'starting builds' post that newbies rightly get directed to. Then newbies can be pointed at the paths as 'if you don't want the half hour Char Builds 101 lecture, pick one of those. They don't suck'.

Of all the replies against my suggestion yours is the ONLY ONE who offers a cogent and rational counter argument and counter-suggestion. I wish more people would do that instead of shooting bs like "dumb idea" without offering any insight or clear thoughts.

BTW, I would agree with your suggestion.

Other than "worst suggestion ever" the implicit answer is to run solo and guild-only -- which is completely short-sighted because it addresses the symptoms and not the underlying problem.

Godspeed.

TheJusticar
10-12-2009, 04:03 PM
While I don't think this is necessary, I do think it would help many players and lead to them being long time players which is good for DDO.

The starter builds need explained better, built better, and there needs to be more of them. I think there should be links in character creation to the compendium for each class so that more in depth info is available.

Yup. Anything to help out is certainly welcome.

TheJusticar
10-12-2009, 04:05 PM
I really hope you are joking, because that is probably the most selfish thing I have ever read on these forums.

Can you not read? How can you say that any pro-group measure is selfish? Do you know what selfish means?

Graypaws
10-12-2009, 04:07 PM
Nothing is idiot proof, the world is always imrpoving the idiot model. Disallowing multi classing would work to slow down gimping, but then you would have to force skill sets, disallow certain classes at the start (who hasnt run into the cleric that only heals themselves or mage that wants to melee), and probably even force certain feat choices. Not a direction the game should be heading. All it takes to stop a bad build choice is a bit of research, not a whole lot, just a bit. I just came back after having left 2 months after the game went live. I decided I didnt want to play my 10th lvl paladin again, so I came here and looked at my rogue choices. Found a tempest build that I liked the look of and went with it.

I dont have a 16th lvl character yet and if I had not been allowed to multi class, I would probably have quit already as the build I found (which I freaking love now) demanded 6 lvls of ranger and 1 of monk. So...

/not signed

ddoer
10-12-2009, 04:09 PM
Then next we can have a check and unless you have a level 16+ Cleric you are not allowed to create a Barbarian. :)


if so, Lv 20 cleric is required for WF Barbarian. :)

This topic does get my attention. I think, a better way is, give more warning on multi-classing and suggest them to stay pure unless they know what they are doing.

if you do lfm yourself, it's not hard recognize abnormal multi-class build and ignore them.

TheJusticar
10-12-2009, 04:12 PM
Nothing is idiot proof, the world is always imrpoving the idiot model. Disallowing multi classing would work to slow down gimping, but then you would have to force skill sets, disallow certain classes at the start (who hasnt run into the cleric that only heals themselves or mage that wants to melee), and probably even force certain feat choices. Not a direction the game should be heading. All it takes to stop a bad build choice is a bit of research, not a whole lot, just a bit. I just came back after having left 2 months after the game went live. I decided I didnt want to play my 10th lvl paladin again, so I came here and looked at my rogue choices. Found a tempest build that I liked the look of and went with it.

I dont have a 16th lvl character yet and if I had not been allowed to multi class, I would probably have quit already as the build I found (which I freaking love now) demanded 6 lvls of ranger and 1 of monk. So...

/not signed

Thus why is only a suggestion. Not a mandate. :) The restriction could come in other forms that are friendly to everyone, yet restrictive enough to avoid blatant pitfalls.

As for doing research ... this world we live would be so much better if people would RTFM ... but most don't. Thus, why _some_ handholding is sometimes necessary.

Godspeed.

Hokiewa
10-12-2009, 04:13 PM
I think a lot of people are missing the point that this is first and foremost a GROUP-BASED game. It's not about a person having fun with builds, it's about fulfilling a role in a group. Your decisions as a player do affect the group (i.e. other people). I'm glad that you're having fun with a gimped build from the get-go, just be aware of it and be aware that you'll be helping your group exactly zero.

Godspeed.

Wrong. Your definition of fun might suit YOU, but don't pigeonhole the entire playing community into that same exact reason. People have fun for many reasons in this game, fulfilling a role is just one of them. That's the point you are missing.

kingfisher
10-12-2009, 04:15 PM
/not signed

sorrybut if this werea rule then how would would said 2/2/2 provide us with so much mirth when he explains over voice chat the reason why he died, and then promptly dies again with a different explaination, then again, and again, until finally all you hear over voice are a long patch of silence **crickets** followed by a very hushed "well ****"?

but seriously, come on dude how you gonna take away multiclassing?? noobs could just as easily screw up a pure build anyway. like the lvl 14 sorc that finally realized he had put all his build points into intelligence 'cause i am an arcane!' or the rogue who started with an 8 con cause 'they wont ever see me to hit me, i can hide sooooooooooo good', or any of a million other borked builds that have nothing to do with multicalssing.

TheJusticar
10-12-2009, 04:20 PM
The new people playing. I have no doubt that it is frustrating for you as you race to cap yet another character but for the new people it is all part of what makes DDO good.

BTW, your sig says July 2009. Is this when you first started playing? I am curious.

Oreg,

If I was an ewber, hard-core addict with 10+ hours play/day, I'd give a rat's behind about gimped toons. I don't. In fact I only have 2-3hours/night if that much. In average, I can only run 1-2 lowbie quests + 1-2 raids per session. Thus why this is such an important issue to me. I honestly don't have the time to spend 1.5 hours in Gwyland's on hard 'cause I _assumed_ that an 8 rogue could easily find and disarm the traps or that people would stick together or they would read party chat or that the 4wiz/4pally wouldn't tank. This assumptions held true, for the most part, up until the onslaught of new players arrived with Mod9.

Also, just to reiterate, I'm suggesting this because I'm not an elitist, exclusive kind of person. I don't like putting "VIP only" or "No F2P, sorry" in the parties I lead. But it seems, judging from the opinion here, that people actually suggest that kind of behavior.

Godspeed.

Graypaws
10-12-2009, 04:25 PM
Oreg,

If I was an ewber, hard-core addict with 10+ hours play/day, I'd give a rat's behind about gimped toons. I don't. In fact I only have 2-3hours/night if that much. In average, I can only run 1-2 lowbie quests + 1-2 raids per session. Thus why this is such an important issue to me. I honestly don't have the time to spend 1.5 hours in Gwyland's on hard 'cause I _assumed_ that an 8 rogue could easily find and disarm the traps or that people would stick together or they would read party chat or that the 4wiz/4pally wouldn't tank. This assumptions held true, for the most part, up until the onslaught of new players arrived with Mod9.

Also, just to reiterate, I'm suggesting this because I'm not an elitist, exclusive kind of person. I don't like putting "VIP only" or "No F2P, sorry" in the parties I lead. But it seems, judging from the opinion here, that people actually suggest that kind of behavior.

Godspeed.

I do fully understand your frustration. Ive played many different online games and seen a variety of different bad/good players. All I can suggest is start adding to your friends list people you run with that are good players or join a guild (I would suggest running with some of the guild members first, just to be safe). I like the idea that when multi classing some sorta warning pops up, but really, it wont help much.

Minor_Threat
10-12-2009, 04:34 PM
Yup. Anything to help out is certainly welcome.
This wasn't directed at the OP, but at NinetyNineTails as I quoted.

I don't agree in anyway with the OP.

ddoer
10-12-2009, 04:35 PM
/not signed
but seriously, come on dude how you gonna take away multiclassing?? noobs could just as easily screw up a pure build anyway. like the lvl 14 sorc that finally realized he had put all his build points into intelligence 'cause i am an arcane!' or the rogue who started with an 8 con cause 'they wont ever see me to hit me, i can hide sooooooooooo good', or any of a million other borked builds that have nothing to do with multicalssing.

this is a good point. and it's more common to see rog who can't search or disable traps.

let the new players do multi-class so we could recognize gimp build easier.

Inspire
10-12-2009, 04:36 PM
Can you not read? How can you say that any pro-group measure is selfish? Do you know what selfish means?

See post 12.

DSC
10-12-2009, 04:52 PM
It is far too easy to permanently gimp a toon in DDO - but I'd suggest the solution to that is to make it easier to "ungimp" your toon, rather than eliminating character choices. In other words, easier and more extensive respec options are the best solution...

eonfreon
10-12-2009, 04:54 PM
Oreg,

If I was an ewber, hard-core addict with 10+ hours play/day, I'd give a rat's behind about gimped toons. I don't. In fact I only have 2-3hours/night if that much. In average, I can only run 1-2 lowbie quests + 1-2 raids per session. Thus why this is such an important issue to me. I honestly don't have the time to spend 1.5 hours in Gwyland's on hard 'cause I _assumed_ that an 8 rogue could easily find and disarm the traps or that people would stick together or they would read party chat or that the 4wiz/4pally wouldn't tank. This assumptions held true, for the most part, up until the onslaught of new players arrived with Mod9.

Also, just to reiterate, I'm suggesting this because I'm not an elitist, exclusive kind of person. I don't like putting "VIP only" or "No F2P, sorry" in the parties I lead. But it seems, judging from the opinion here, that people actually suggest that kind of behavior.

Godspeed.

Okay, you must really be super annoyed with the Players you've gotten stuck with, because you're really not thinking it through. I understand you must be frustrated because you've always sounded pretty reasonable to me.
No one's really suggesting you adopt an "elitist" attitude, not really. For one thing putting those LFM tags like "VIP only" or "no f2p" won't even accomplish what you want, because VIP and f2p are simply tags, they don't describe the players behind the tags, just a paying model for Turbine to keep track of.

The VIP could be the nightmare group mate and the f2p could be the model teammate or vice versa. I'm afraid the only real vetting process is the one we've always had; playing with people. A "no multiclassing" rule would not have helped that pure 8th level Rogue do Gwylan's traps you described.

Better documentation in-game would help, certainly, but restrictions on Multi-classing won't solve your difficulties with certain players. The Players who care enough to learn; will. Those who don't; won't.

Unfortunately, other then running with a tight-knit group of friends, you never know who you're going to get. Turbine could certainly make things clearer to people but no multi-classing rule wouldn't accomplish what you want. It would just confuse people wondering why they can't make the builds they see others have. And then they would be told they had to earn the right to multiclass and... well you remember the whole "Earn 32 Point" debate right?

Anyway, sorry to hear about your experiences and I hope that this venting released some of that pressure ;). I know that's you just needed to vent, we all do sometimes.

Khafar
10-12-2009, 05:12 PM
I think a lot of people are missing the point that this is first and foremost a GROUP-BASED game.Not for me it isn't. I've grouped a grand total of 4 times in a month (2-3 hours total), which is pretty much typical for my playing schedule in MMOs. My playtimes are too unpredictable, short, and interrupted to group often - usually just once a week or so.

My multi-classed Cleric (Cleric 8 / Fighter 1) is soloing 95% of the time just fine thanks, and I have no need of such "protection". Not when I can read the forums, ask advice in game, and put a few brain cells together to figure things out on my own. The vastly improved support for soloability is why I'm here, and why I've now spent $100 (including the 5000 point package on sale over the weekend). For that, I expect I'll be playing for a good while, although I'll be taking a multi-month break when LOTRO's Seige of Mirkwood expansion arrives. My Turbine Points will still be here when I'm ready to come back and play some more DDO.

I would find this sort of restriction to be extremely irritating. Let me make my mistakes, and learn from them. If you don't want to group with me because I'm running a suboptimal build, that's fine. But don't try to restrict how I can play.

Khafar

Autolycus
10-12-2009, 05:40 PM
Absolutely NOT signed!

Different people have fun in different ways. You can offer advice and suggestions, but in no way does anyone have the right to force or limit someone else's play style/choices. If you don't like their choice, no one is forcing you to play with them. That's your choice.

bobbryan2
10-12-2009, 05:42 PM
This wouldn't be an issue if DDO had better ways to fix characters. I'm betting the cost of the lesser reincarnation will be prohibitively expensive for newer players though, and it won't even fix the multi-class woes.

Ah well...

Tyrande
10-12-2009, 05:47 PM
Usually free players have lots of time or think they have lots of time to grind. They have to make mistakes to learn. It is also fun to see their multi-class part time rogues blow up the trap. :D

Arronaz
10-12-2009, 07:05 PM
This wouldn't be an issue if DDO had better ways to fix characters. I'm betting the cost of the lesser reincarnation will be prohibitively expensive for newer players though, and it won't even fix the multi-class woes.

Ah well...

They should add a proper respec system, for class levels, skills.. really I think everything should be respec'able. How would a full respec system undermine the game in anyway? I never understood why they didn't implement such a feature from start, specially when you consider DDO complexity when compared to other MMOs (and how the game mechanics change abruptely from one mod to the next).

Now for the OP problem, just add a intelligent "path" sytem, fix the paths they gave us, and make them optimal builds. Sometimes I wonder if the devs do actually play the game.

Gawna
10-12-2009, 07:17 PM
100% not signed. How many now-veterans who maybe weren't familiar with D&D made crazy builds that were a total mess, but they learned from them? Why wouldn't you let others have the same opportunity? I have grouped with quite a few people who are new to DDO, but not to D&D, and have a wonderful grasp of the game and have made very functional and efficient multi-classed toons. This game is about FUN, not fulfilling someone elses idea of what playing your character should be. I also don't understand why having a 16th level character should be a pre-requisite for multi-classing - you're wrong if you think someone can't make a messed up build after leveling a 16th level barbarian.

Uska
10-12-2009, 07:53 PM
Sorry disagree I think it would drive people away.

TheJusticar
10-12-2009, 08:03 PM
They should add a proper respec system, for class levels, skills.. really I think everything should be respec'able. How would a full respec system undermine the game in anyway? I never understood why they didn't implement such a feature from start, specially when you consider DDO complexity when compared to other MMOs (and how the game mechanics change abruptely from one mod to the next).

Now for the OP problem, just add a intelligent "path" sytem, fix the paths they gave us, and make them optimal builds. Sometimes I wonder if the devs do actually play the game.

I'm the OP and I approve of this message.

As for learning the hard way argument ... in DDO today there's NO hard way to learn. Death is meaningless and reversible in every possible way. When I came to this game, trust me, I learned very fast how gimped my first three toons were. Due to the death penalty if I died more than once or twice in a dungeon I'd lose my a$$ on XP. If it happen too frequently it FORCED ME to learn the ropes. It forced me to learn about the nuance and detail of building a proper toon. There's no death penalty anymore so people will NOT learn or at least feel they have a gimped toon. For instance, take that 4Wiz/4Pal who died 7 times before half the mission was over. In the days of yore in DDO that person would be so drown into XP debt that he or she would have to consider re-rolling. today I'm very sure that the person has dies hundrerds of times and yet she might be a 5Wiz/5Pal today for all I know. This is why the learn-the-hard way in this game doesn't work and thus why myself and other folks in this thread are suggesting possible solutions to the problem.

Godspeed.

Xithos
10-12-2009, 08:12 PM
There is a horde of pure-class gimps running around as well; doing this won't fix the issue you are looking to resolve. Limiting new people in this way would also be construed by them as an obstacle to having fun and possibly keep them from spending any money in the store on the game.

Pirate-Jake
10-13-2009, 02:33 AM
dumbest suggestion EVAR.

yes, disable one of the most interesting parts of DDO for new players because they might make a mistake.


Agreed. 100%.

My highest level character is Rogue5/Monk2. and its awesome. Not just in PVE, but in PVP as well. I do not regret building it.

FluffyCalico
10-13-2009, 02:42 AM
Devs,



My suggestion: please check if a player has at least one toon lvl 16+ on any server. If not, make them choose a pre-built path

So instead of letting them risk they might gimp their toon, you instead want to guarentee they gimp it? All the prebuilt paths suck.

winsom
10-13-2009, 04:38 AM
I think there could be better In-Game Warnings of potentials disasters when multi-classing.

i.e. If a sorceror tries to take a cleric level he should be warned that the benefits of taking both of these classes at once is very frequently not worth the price of:
getting your new spell levels for the rest of your career at a later level than normal, penalizing your caster level, and delaying or removing the aquisition of high level abilities to include 20th level abilities.

Ideally there should be notes that pop-up with hyper-links to suggestions in the Compendium that Forum Users have voted-on to be includes as advice to new players. There could be a pro's vs. cons section for many of these suggestions so the player can read them and decide before going ahead with the multi-class.

I think people should be able to re-build thier alignment and character class selections without needing to start over with a True Reincarnation. This upcoming "re-spec" system carries too steep of a price, especially for a player that has gotten to 16th+ level on his first character and is starting to realize his low level choices are starting to really hurt his character's potential. Many flaws with multi-classing do not show up for many levels which for some players will equate to many weeks of play if they wish to re-start a character.

Falchion123
10-13-2009, 05:17 AM
New player are just that - new, they are no more or less intelligent than us. We've learned and they will learn too, some might even come out with some super uber multi-class build we have not thought of yet.

So it's all good, and...../not signed.

Stealthdog
10-13-2009, 05:18 AM
What is next? Forcing people to play their characters based on certain perceptions of how classes should be played? If you are a cleric, change the code so you can't swing a weapon but can only sit there and spam heals.

Sorry, but this is perhaps the worst idea I have seen on these boards in years. One of the biggest enjoyments I have had over the years is building a strange toon and running him through levels 1-6 to see how it works out. And, the best part of this game is the unlimited options in characters.

If you are concerned about joining a group because a newb might be in it, then don't join. Add players you have grouped with to your friends list and run quests with them. Just because you had a few bad experiences joining a group blindly doesn't mean the whole dynamics of the game needs to be changed.

I personally find a 4 wizard/4 paladin dual wielding and charging into everything humorous. If you are cautious about a group because of odd multi-levels, then don't join the group. But....geesh....preventing anyone who hasn't reached level 16 on a toon from multiclassing a character is....well.....

I do agree that the prebuilt ones are terrible and better information about building characters would be helpful.

testing1234
10-13-2009, 05:52 AM
from what i heard the pregenerated paths were hopelessly gimped-suboptimal in mod8, i have not heard if they were changed with addition of "mod1" i assume they now go all the way to 20.
but from what i saw of first set of pregernated paths i am going to assume (without uptodate proof) that they are once again suboptimal to gimp builds. i have no info at all about the FvS class builds.

do we have anyone in the thread that tried one of the paths in "mod1"/unlimited not sure what to call it, the last modul?

Wildseed
10-13-2009, 06:50 AM
Not that good either, starting stats on the "two weapon fighting" Divine avenger: 14/16/10/8/12/14

(sounds gimped to me, not something I'd build) sad thing is at some point they probably put a lvl up into dex too. To be able to grab improved twf.

Beacon of hope: 8/8/14/8/14/18
Angel of Vengeance:8/8/14/8/18

Um, I wouldn't want to play any of these "pre-built" paths and for my 2 coppers about the original post. Thumbs down. Not a good idea to put that much control into the hands of the game. Game builds gimps too. If you research (which some do and you can't make all the people do ANYTHING please remember that) They do have a little dialog that says are you sure you want to multi classs I must admit I've only read the first piece of that particular dialog before I hurried and clicked okay. After all this is the 'computer' world pretty much as long as it doesn't say "give her soul to the devil" or something of that nature I'm gonna click okay as quickly as I can move my mouse. Doesn't matter what it says about possibly gimping your character.

SquelchHU
10-13-2009, 07:33 AM
It's possible for a player to be new to DDO but not D&D, and your "Lock multiclassing away without a L16+" plan doesn't account for that at all.

Signed. Especially since most of the prebuilt builds are gimps anyways. Not as bad as random disjointed multiclassing but still not very good. I see a lot of Con 10s in there. The custom route does warn that it's for people that know what they're doing, if you don't that's on you. It also warns you when you go to multiclass that you should know what you're doing and that if you're on a path you'll leave it.

The new players that know what they're doing will make multiclassing work for them. The ones that don't and ignore the warnings were asking for it.

darkbardraven
10-13-2009, 07:53 AM
Honestly I have been playing pen and paper D&D Since version one yes I'm middle aged and honestly even some of the knoledgable players make gimped toons I have about four toons on each server although I do have my main server and my main toon that I don't experiment on I do have many I am trying out just to see how they play out some work rather well some.....well lets just say they make good storage of gear I want to keep for later use. The think is alot of people that make gimped toons are looking for something that fits them so why take that away just don't play with em if you don't like there style, its like saying " They should get rid of cowboy hats just cause you don't like cowboy's"

Daedalis
10-13-2009, 07:59 AM
I think a better warning system would help. For example:

Stats: Str: 18 Dex 8 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 6
the first 2 levels was Fighter, but now a player wants to cast spells and decides they want to multiclass Wizard. A pop up warning should come up and show something like:

A wizards primary Stat is Intelligence. Your Intelligence is only 10. Spells that can be cast with 10 Int are 0. The level of spells and amount of spell points are all dependent on Intelligence. And then maybe a link to the wiki showing the information for a wizard including the chart for Spells per intell range. And of course asking if they really wish to train as a wizzy.

This could be done for all classes. Rogue checks Int, Dex, and wis for primary stats. Pally would be Str, Con, Cha, Wis.....but i'm sure the coding for this might take a lot of work to do. But it would be good to know...if your multiclassing and your primary stat(s) for that class are not up to par you get a message.

Or maybe a training ground (much bigger than what use to be the beginning area for toons) to practice what your going to do. An area where a caster can go into a fight situation and practice casting spells, or just to test different spells. Get an idea on how far away you can cast spells, what kind of damage they do, etc. Or a specialized trap area that allows a rogue to practice opening locks, disarming traps, spotting and finding doors. And maybe have the traps go up in DC based on the toons current level. Not a quest, does nothing for favor, but allows a toon to test their skills at whatever level they are at. A barbarian/fighter(melee character) could have a group that they have to kill and could have a counter to see how quickly they can dispatch the mobs...you could do all kinds of fun stuff with something like this. Maybe even keep top 5 accomplishments....x # of mobs in x secs by character. Or Highest trap DC for level 1 set by character....and don't make things so that only a rogue can go into the rogue area. Someone might have Evasion on a toon and wants to see if they can run the traps without getting hit....or a ranger who wants to test their healing abilities....you never know :).

Just throwing out some ideas.....probably way too much to try to impliment :)

TheJusticar
10-13-2009, 10:40 AM
My fault for thinking that "suggestions" meant "absolute p!ss!ng contest" for some of you. Save for the several people who posed and framed a counter argument and possible alternatives to my gripes (I suggest you read the whole thread see how many people do share the same concern even though they might disagree with my posed solution).

Again, "/signed" or "/not signed" add exactly ZERO to the discussion. Dismissing someone's suggestion without providing one of your own or at the very least a cogent, coherent reason why or why not it a bad idea is rather weak.

Perhaps argument, point-counter-point and rhetoric has gotten lost in this new age of public education. sigh.

Godspeed.

Bekki
10-13-2009, 11:17 AM
The great thing about this game is that you CAN have a bad character
and still be viable. Bekki is living proof.
I made mistakes with him but he still holds his own.
You can multiclass if you do it carefully and fully weigh the pros and cons.

Now, I like the idea of a training area.
some where you can go to try out new builds with no repercussions and maybe
get feedback on what works and what doesn't...

A Warrior "testing ground" so to speak...Where you enter the
"Testing ground" and you can run a build from 0-20 and see exactly
what will happen as you progress up the ranks.

And Maybe include some testing Quests to be able combat test it with.

Say... one of 5 types of Missions, with the capability to set the level from 01 to 20.


And that would allow you to "Acid test " your build.
But anything done in the "Training Ground" stays... in the training ground.
But I would like the ability to either E-mail or print your build so you can keep it.

And if they want to Add some fun...

Throw in a "Gauntlet Quest."
And you can have a Leaderboard. for "Bragging rights"

With High scores for each class.

Longest Survival, Highest kill count,
Least amount of Damage taken with comlpetion... Etc.


But I imagine that would take alot of coding so I don't know if that would be a viable
option. We used to have Risia, and alot of players wuld test builds on there but
without Acess to a place like that you are seeing alot more test builds on the live server.



Now, it used to be when you multiclassed and went to the trainer they would Ask

"Are you sure you WANT to Multi-class as "X" ?"

I kinda miss that.

But I don't think it is fair to say to new players "you cannot multiclass"

Since that is one of the biggest Draws of the game...
and making mistakes is how you learn, its how you did it, its how
I did it , heck it's how we all did it, and it is how the new players
will do it no matter what we do.

We all had to learn the hard way because we all thought we knew what we were doing...
till we figured out ... "Well... maybe this wasn't such a great idea..."

We all needed to learn and we all had to learn the hard way.

And they will have to learn the hard way too.

That is just the way it is...

But we can't hold their feet to the fire to be as experienced
as we are till they actually are as experienced as we are.

All we can do is have a little (and sometimes alot :p ) of patience
and try our best to give them the benefit of our impartial hard won experience.

Hope for the best...

Players are gonna do, what they are gonna do.
No matter how much we try to warn them otherwise.

Just my two Cp's....

Khafar
10-13-2009, 11:30 AM
I suggest you read the whole thread see how many people do share the same concern even though they might disagree with my posed solution.There were a few.

My problem with this whole train of thought is that it assumes I'm just a "resource" for groups, so I should build optimal characters that will maximize group contribution... and it's "selfish" if I do otherwise. In fact, this is so important that I should be forbidden from making sub-optimal builds until I've learned better. That's just an obnoxious point of view, IMO, one virtually guaranteed to chase new players away.

I'm here to share in the fun and to find my own fun, not to be an "optimal resource". And if the game above level 10 is really built so close to the edge that only groups of close-to-optimal builds stand much chance of succeeding at a lot of content... Turbine screwed up (and they know better, so I'm surprised). Is that really the case, or are you just complaining that sub-optimal builds increase the challenge level for groups?

Khafar

Hokiewa
10-13-2009, 11:49 AM
My fault for thinking that "suggestions" meant "absolute p!ss!ng contest" for some of you. Save for the several people who posed and framed a counter argument and possible alternatives to my gripes (I suggest you read the whole thread see how many people do share the same concern even though they might disagree with my posed solution).

Again, "/signed" or "/not signed" add exactly ZERO to the discussion. Dismissing someone's suggestion without providing one of your own or at the very least a cogent, coherent reason why or why not it a bad idea is rather weak.

Perhaps argument, point-counter-point and rhetoric has gotten lost in this new age of public education. sigh.

Godspeed.

Posting a suggestion based upon a few bad run adds exactly ZERO to the suggestion forum. You've posted this experiance in multiple threads, and this experiance is exactly why your proposing this. Don't deny it. There are many alternatives to your gripe; the main being GET over it; Bad runs are inevitable, but it is a game after all. Some of my funniest moments are in a quest with newbs and struggling to get by. People learn that way.

People don't learn by denying them the same opportunity you had when creating a toon. This game has a learning curve unlike most other MMOs. That's good frankly, and the players you generally meet end game are proof that they learned from their mistakes. While your time is YOUR time, this game isn't yours to dictate how new players are "allowed" to play. Many posters have offered alternatives for you, for a suggestion that frankly didn't really deserve the attention it did. You, by your own admission, "expect" characters to fill a role. That's not fun to at lot of people that have been here since the beginning. What role do you fill?

Group with guildies, solo, stop pugging are all valid solutions to YOUR problem. Remember, as others have said it, your definition of FUN applies to you and you only.

eonfreon
10-13-2009, 11:51 AM
There were a few.

My problem with this whole train of thought is that it assumes I'm just a "resource" for groups, so I should build optimal characters that will maximize group contribution... and it's "selfish" if I do otherwise. In fact, this is so important that I should be forbidden from making sub-optimal builds until I've learned better. That's just an obnoxious point of view, IMO, one virutally guaranteed to chase new players away.

I'm here to share in the fun and to find my own fun, not to be an "optimal resource". And if the game above level 10 is really built so close to the edge that only groups of close-to-optimal builds stand much chance of succeeding at a lot of content... Turbine screwed up (and they know better, so I'm surprised). Is that really the case, or are you just complaining that sub-optimal builds increase the challenge level for groups?

Khafar

"Sub-optimal" builds are fine through to endgame (might use more resources especially in Hard or Elite mode, but what are "resources" for other then to be "used" anyway).

What TheJusticar is really dealing with is "subpar" players. He's obviously just venting his frustrations with some PUGS.

Because anyone who thinks about it for a few minutes wouldn't think the described scenario of a 4 wiz/ 4 pally that wouldn't listen or couldn't play well, would likely not be remedied by forcing said player to go either 8 Wiz or 8 Pally. Yes, either 8 Pally or 8 Wiz would be "easier" to play for a new player, but it doesn't really sound like that player really cared, I have a feeling TheJusticar would've had the same problems with that particular player, no matter what the other player played ;).


My fault for thinking that "suggestions" meant "absolute p!ss!ng contest" for some of you. Save for the several people who posed and framed a counter argument and possible alternatives to my gripes (I suggest you read the whole thread see how many people do share the same concern even though they might disagree with my posed solution).

Again, "/signed" or "/not signed" add exactly ZERO to the discussion. Dismissing someone's suggestion without providing one of your own or at the very least a cogent, coherent reason why or why not it a bad idea is rather weak.

Perhaps argument, point-counter-point and rhetoric has gotten lost in this new age of public education. sigh.

Godspeed.

TheJusticar I would love to have some suggestions, but what you need is some way to filter through competent or incompetent players (or just jerks wasting people's time). I don't think there is any way to ever create such a filter. Better in-game documentation perhaps could at least help those who "genuinely" care to learn the game better.

TheJusticar you're just over-reacting. That's why no one can take your suggestion seriously. For instance, how would disallowing multiclassing have any effect on the pure 8th level Rogue who couldn't do traps?

And in a suggestion no one is required to do point counter-point arguments. This isn't debate class. No one needs to justify why they think one way or another. /Signed or /Not Signed is just basically a "vote' a way for someone to feel they at least stated their opinion, even if they don't bother to give the reasons behind their opinions.

I understand you don't want to "exclude" people and be "elitist" by making LFM "tags" that say "No f2p" or "VIP only". So instead you want Turbine to do it for you. Understandable, I suppose.

But as my favorite characters were multiclassed and the fact was that I started experimenting with builds after only a few weeks into the game, I have to disagree with any idea to "disallow" new players from trying to multiclass.

And I can't give any other options, because there is no way to know how good an unknown player is until you play with him. I can't really imagine what the game could possibly do to insure that new players are "competent", other then outright creating the character for them and telling them exactly how to play it. And I can't see how that could work or that anyone would think that would be fun.

People complained before that they didn't want to play because of the restrictions on how to get 32 pointers. Imagine telling them they have to "earn" the "right" to multiclass.

Khafar
10-13-2009, 12:11 PM
what you need is some way to filter through competent or incompetent players. I don't think there is any way to ever create such a filter.Ultimately, experience is the only way to provide this, one of the reasons why guilds are so useful: you get to know people by playing with them, you have an incentive to help everyone within the guild improve their level of play, and if someone is just a jerk (or a leech)... you can evict them from the guild.

In my experiences with other games, PUGs usually suck. We're often complete strangers, we don't have any practice working together, our in-game experiences vary quite a bit, our skill levels and knowledge of the game often vary widely, and many players don't seem to have sufficient incentive to "play nice" if they know they may never interact with you again anyway. People bicker over what the goals are, how they'll be accomplished, how loot is distributed, who to blame if/when things fall apart, etc.

Maybe DDO has been some sort of anomaly in this regard due to the smaller server populations and its dependence on grouping: while I don't like forced grouping games much, one clear benefit to them is that reputations really matter. Not to be a bummer, but I suspect that the PUG experience is going to become more typical with all the turnover common in F2P business models and with a good deal more support for solo gameplay...

Khafar

eonfreon
10-13-2009, 12:23 PM
Ultimately, experience is the only way to provide this, one of the reasons why guilds are so useful: you get to know people by playing with them, you have an incentive to help everyone within the guild improve their level of play, and if someone is just a jerk (or a leech)... you can evict them from the guild.

In my experiences with other games, PUGs usually suck. We're often complete strangers, we don't have any practice working together, our in-game experiences vary quite a bit, our skill levels and knowledge of the game often vary widely, and many players don't seem to have sufficient incentive to "play nice" if they know they may never interact with you again anyway. People bicker over what the goals are, how they'll be accomplished, how loot is distributed, who to blame if/when things fall apart, etc.

Maybe DDO has been some sort of anomaly in this regard due to the smaller server populations and its dependence on grouping: while I don't like forced grouping games much, one clear benefit to them is that reputations really matter. Not to be a bummer, but I suspect that the PUG experience is going to become more typical with all the turnover common in F2P business models and with a good deal more support for solo gameplay...

Khafar

Very true. When I read the OP I wanted to tell him basically, "Join a Guild" or "Play with people you know" but the OP stated he liked to PUG.

I like to Pug too. My thinking on PUGS is that we're just basically a bunch of mercenaries brought together by greed (loot) or a sense of adventure (xp).

When I do PUG I do it knowing that I never know who I'll play with and I built my characters with that in mind; they are "overpowered" to make up for others who may be "underpowered". I can be pretty snarky to people that are a pain in my butt as well. I remember a Gwylans myself where the Barbarian was a major pain. I just kept making fun of him and his mistakes and constant death until he muttered something about "just having fun and being a bit drunk" and then logging out.

We were much better off without him and everyone thought so in the group.

But yeah, when I PUG I have low expectations. Fortunately, most of the time I'm quite pleasantly surprised by how many good groups I find of total strangers.

TheJusticar
10-13-2009, 12:26 PM
"Sub-optimal" builds are fine through to endgame (might use more resources especially in Hard or Elite mode, but what are "resources" for other then to be "used" anyway).

What TheJusticar is really dealing with is "subpar" players. He's obviously just venting his frustrations with some PUGS.

Because anyone who thinks about it for a few minutes wouldn't think the described scenario of a 4 wiz/ 4 pally that wouldn't listen or couldn't play well, would likely not be remedied by forcing said player to go either 8 Wiz or 8 Pally. Yes, either 8 Pally or 8 Wiz would be "easier" to play for a new player, but it doesn't really sound like that player really cared, I have a feeling TheJusticar would've had the same problems with that particular player, no matter what the other player played ;).



TheJusticar I would love to have some suggestions, but what you need is some way to filter through competent or incompetent players (or just jerks wasting people's time). I don't think there is any way to ever create such a filter. Better in-game documentation perhaps could at least help those who "genuinely" care to learn the game better.


People complained before that they didn't want to play because of the restrictions on how to get 32 pointers. Imagine telling them they have to "earn" the "right" to multiclass.

eonfreon,

You know I respect your opinion (in fact, so much so that I took your suggestion to splash 2rog on my capped pally and it made my toon so much better, so for that I'm very thankful -- what good are saves in the 30s without evasion, right?).

A lot of people got hung on the fact that I said, "lvl16." And perhaps, in retrospect, that did disservice to my argument. But other people in this very thread have suggested very good alternate ideas to address the problem at hand. And actually that is the kind of discussion I was seeking. A dialog. Not a darn p!ss!ng contest and indirect ad-hominems.

Also lost in the thread is the fact that people keeps saying "learning the hard way." But there is no such a thing anymore. As I explained in a previous post in this thread, there's no "hard way" in DDO. XP death penalty was the best litmus test whether a toon was viable -- at least that was the way I was sure reminded the gimpness/viability of my toons. They took that away. The dumbed it down. So now we are only left with a few options: 1) be a complete jacka$$ and kick people out of groups. 2)tell people to /reroll. 3) pigeonhole ALL newbs (few of which are quite good) and don't allow them in your group.

If you ask me that will only create a more hostile environment for both new players and veterans alike. Forget about my anti-MC suggestion for a minute. How can Turbine make sure to **minimize** (because this will never cover 100% of the population) that this doesn't happen?

Godspeed.

Twerpp
10-13-2009, 12:35 PM
Dumb idea.

Smart multiclassing can give a 28 point noob the advantages a 32 point pure class player with access to tons of gear would have, at the cost of 1-2 levels.

TheJusticar
10-13-2009, 01:03 PM
Dumb idea.

Smart multiclassing

Yes, 4Pal/4Wiz and 2sorc/2wiz/2cleric are very good examples of smart MCing. Did you not read this is targeted towards brand NEW players? Not for people who have already built and leveled many toons or for people who have not the least idea about D&D/DDO.

Godspeed.

Twerpp
10-13-2009, 01:13 PM
Yes, 4Pal/4Wiz and 2sorc/2wiz/2cleric are very good examples of smart MCing. Did you not read this is targeted towards brand NEW players? Not for people who have already built and leveled many toons or for people who have not the least idea about D&D/DDO.

Godspeed.


My very first toon was a smart multiclass I dont know why you think new players are incapable of doing it.

eonfreon
10-13-2009, 01:16 PM
eonfreon,

You know I respect your opinion (in fact, so much so that I took your suggestion to splash 2rog on my capped pally and it made my toon so much better, so for that I'm very thankful -- what good are saves in the 30s without evasion, right?).

A lot of people got hung on the fact that I said, "lvl16." And perhaps, in retrospect, that did disservice to my argument. But other people in this very thread have suggested very good alternate ideas to address the problem at hand. And actually that is the kind of discussion I was seeking. A dialog. Not a darn p!ss!ng contest and indirect ad-hominems.

Also lost in the thread is the fact that people keeps saying "learning the hard way." But there is no such a thing anymore. As I explained in a previous post in this thread, there's no "hard way" in DDO. XP death penalty was the best litmus test whether a toon was viable -- at least that was the way I was sure reminded the gimpness/viability of my toons. They took that away. The dumbed it down. So now we are only left with a few options: 1) be a complete jacka$$ and kick people out of groups. 2)tell people to /reroll. 3) pigeonhole ALL newbs (few of which are quite good) and don't allow them in your group.

If you ask me that will only create a more hostile environment for both new players and veterans alike. Forget about my anti-MC suggestion for a minute. How can Turbine make sure to **minimize** (because this will never cover 100% of the population) that this doesn't happen?

Godspeed.

I understand, I wish folks wouldn't just say "dumb idea" or such. However, it is to be expected. I'd say ignore them, but I'm quite guilty of getting my feathers ruffled when people are rude to me as well, so I'm not one to talk. Halfway through responding to some snarky comment I always realize I'm letting someone get a rise out of me and falling into the "trap" of wasting my time talking to them, and I still hit "enter" and post it. LOL.

Anyway, ignoring any disallowing MC discussion, I did see one good suggestion:
Better Training by Turbine.

Perhaps a Training Area could be reinstated. With different difficulties so that a new Rogue can try his trap skills against appropriate DCs with what he might expect, for instance.
A safeground basically, where a Wizard can try his Hold Spell on various monsters even.

That's really the best I can think of. A Testing grounds for different scenarios. Just a bunch of generic traps that a Rogue can set the DCs per level and quest difficulty. A "bogus" bunch of monsters that can't kill Players or Damage equipment but that HPs can be raised to challenge melee characters dps and Caster CC and Insta-kill spells. Let players set up SR and DR on mobs to see if they can effect them.

Things like that could be do-able and help Train new people. I don't know if making it mandatory though might anger people.

Shaamis
10-13-2009, 01:53 PM
I think a lot of people are missing the point that this is first and foremost a GROUP-BASED game. It's not about a person having fun with builds, it's about fulfilling a role in a group. Your decisions as a player do affect the group (i.e. other people). I'm glad that you're having fun with a gimped build from the get-go, just be aware of it and be aware that you'll be helping your group exactly zero.

Godspeed.

I have re-rolled a LOT of characters because stat points werent right, skill points werent right, and (before feats were able to be re-specced) feats weren't right.

For someone who enjoys the system, and the rewards of a good build, this isnt a problem.

For someone who is all about time=xp, of course this is unacceptable.

We all play for different reasons.

Oh, and the player behind the keyboard is more important than the character. Once the player is educated on what gets him forward in DDO, his characters will follow.

<GULP>

Don't forget to drink one for Shaamis!

Talon_Moonshadow
10-13-2009, 02:41 PM
I understand where this idea comes from.

Look at all the posts from new players about build ideas.
Look at the general chat.
The Advice chat.

People do not know what they are doing in D&D when it comes to multi-classing.

And DDO makes it worse.

Who wants to feel they nmade a mistake in their char?
No one.

Who wants to reroll?

Not many.

We dedicate months and years to our chars.

Someday the unknowledgable will make a mistake. Get frustrated.
Blame Turbine and quit.

Then their is all the free advice from veterans that will tell everyone that if they have any build other than a Con based Exploiter that they are gimped and should reroll.

Anyway,
Personally I think we need a respect option that does not make you wait till 20. And lets people like the High Str Wiz/Sor builds actually fix their char.

We also need release more warning signs and releae forms.

"Are you sure you want to multi class?"

"Your char will be gimped, are you still sure?"

"Are you absolutely really, really sure?"

"By clicking yes, you agree that the Turbine staff is not responsible for you multi-classing mistake, and you are admitting that you are just a dumb noob, that should not be allowed to reproduce, or ever post a build idea on the forums."

KoboldKiller
10-13-2009, 02:44 PM
It already warns you if you try to multi-class.

There are numerous builds on the Forums as well as in game advice.

If people choose to ignore these 2 sources that's their problem but to tell them they can't do it at all is wrong.

Mercules
10-13-2009, 02:47 PM
We also need release more warning signs and releae forms.

"Are you sure you want to multi class?"

"Your char will be gimped, are you still sure?"

"Are you absolutely really, really sure?"

"By clicking yes, you agree that the Turbine staff is not responsible for you multi-classing mistake, and you are admitting that you are just a dumb noob, that should not be allowed to reproduce, or ever post a build idea on the forums."

At which point the player will log onto the forums and write a scathing post about how stupid Turbine is and how they need to let you know taking a level of Wizard on your Sorcerer for the Free Metamagic feat will hurt your character in the long run.

When it is pointed out that there were multiply screens verifying and informing them it might be a bad idea they will simply state, "I didn't anything like that." or possibly, "I didn't think that meant me."

10+ years of Tech Support gives me all the evidence I need to support this belief. ;)

Visty
10-13-2009, 03:04 PM
At which point the player will log onto the forums and write a scathing post about how stupid Turbine is and how they need to let you know taking a level of Wizard on your Sorcerer for the Free Metamagic feat will hurt your character in the long run.

When it is pointed out that there were multiply screens verifying and informing them it might be a bad idea they will simply state, "I didn't anything like that." or possibly, "I didn't think that meant me."

10+ years of Tech Support gives me all the evidence I need to support this belief. ;)

well, tolero (i think it was him) confirmed that ppl deleted chars by accident...so everything can and will happen out there

(yes, you have to type your chars name to delete it)

TheJusticar
10-13-2009, 03:29 PM
Anyway, ignoring any disallowing MC discussion, I did see one good suggestion:
Better Training by Turbine.

Perhaps a Training Area could be reinstated. With different difficulties so that a new Rogue can try his trap skills against appropriate DCs with what he might expect, for instance.
A safeground basically, where a Wizard can try his Hold Spell on various monsters even.

That's really the best I can think of. A Testing grounds for different scenarios. Just a bunch of generic traps that a Rogue can set the DCs per level and quest difficulty. A "bogus" bunch of monsters that can't kill Players or Damage equipment but that HPs can be raised to challenge melee characters dps and Caster CC and Insta-kill spells. Let players set up SR and DR on mobs to see if they can effect them.

Things like that could be do-able and help Train new people. I don't know if making it mandatory though might anger people.


This is certainly a possibility. Take, for instance, Guild Wars. Starting with their Factions campaign, they added a true and proper tutorial zone where you even risk dying. The objectives are clearly defined. The warn you of named mobs as soon as you target them. They put your characters in a somewhat realistic scenario -- more so than the tutorial in Korthos. Then there's a tutorial to learn how to use henchmen and heroes (the equivalent but competent hirelings) and that worked out very good for me when I tried that game a while ago.

Another idea I could see is apply PnP rules for MCing. IIRC, MCing (or even splashing) in PnP was a very tough decision. Most DMs would only allow you MC at certain levels and only a number of levels. There were fairly steep penalties for doing so (XP penalties, perhaps lose feats/abilities, non-stacking BaB, etc.). In fact, in the much-hated 4e you are not allowed to splash 'till lvl11. Then again, I'm sure people would say is a "dumb idea" to implement the rules this game is entirely based on.

Godspeed.

Inspire
10-13-2009, 04:18 PM
Yes, 4Pal/4Wiz and 2sorc/2wiz/2cleric are very good examples of smart MCing. Did you not read this is targeted towards brand NEW players? Not for people who have already built and leveled many toons or for people who have not the least idea about D&D/DDO.

So when exactly would you allow 'NEW' players to start multiclassing?

Khafar
10-13-2009, 04:20 PM
How can Turbine make sure to **minimize** (because this will never cover 100% of the population) that this doesn't happen?Suggestions:


Better information (although I'm skeptical just how many people would take the time to learn it even if it were more accessible).
Full respec allowed for one character within your first 3 months of starting a Premium or VIP account.
Partial respec (maybe a 3 level "redo advancement" option) allowed once, for a fairly hefty price. Premium accounts get this once per server, and VIPs get it once per character.
Let people learn and have some limited ways to fix what they view as "mistakes". However, I'm also fine with just leaving it as it is. When I played AC, I made what min/maxers would view as "mistakes" with my first character (because I didn't know any better). However, I loved that character more than any of my "uber" ones... the latter were often abandoned within a few months, but I played my more "gimpy" characters for years. They were more unique, more challenging, and ultimately... more fun. At least for me.

Khafar

assamite
10-13-2009, 04:51 PM
DUDE!!! My human 6barbarian 8wizy 6bard IS JUST FINE LEAVE ME ALONE!!!
8 str
9 dex
9 con
9 int
19 wis
17 chr
I CAN SOLO WW ELITE!!! :P I SOLOED TR THE OTHER DAY!!! AND IT ONLY TOOK ME 6 HOURS AND 1 HEAL WAND FROM THE DDO STORE :PPPP

Hokiewa
10-13-2009, 05:00 PM
Then again, I'm sure people would say is a "dumb idea" to implement the rules this game is entirely based on.

Godspeed.

No, a dumb idea is changing the entire game based upon one person's definition of "fun". Let's not side track your original issue. You expect people to fill "roles" in your party. Your words, not mine.

Salsa
10-13-2009, 06:14 PM
Wow, my first post, I hate posting but this thread just made me wince.

Where to start.

1) The assumption that new players = ignorant of how to multiclass is flawed. I have played D&D for 21+ years. It may not be exactly the same on DDO but I haven't had problems yet. Between PnP and other D&D games a new player can know how to multiclass.

2) A player needs level 16. Congrats, you have just taken out a fun direction for those in #1 and F2P players. F2P will take a long time to level to level 16 as they have reduced quest options. Limiting options reduces fun. The current limitations allow enough fun not to get frustrated and quit.

3) Leveling to level 16 in no way makes you an expert in multiclassing anyways. This is also a flawed argument.

4) Not all of us want to level to level 16, we like playing around with different builds and see how things work (heck bards and burning hands got laughed at in PnP but I find both quite useful now). By requiring such a a level just discourages those of us who really don't have the time or care to level up that high

5) Multiclassing gives options, options encourage people to play more and hopefully buy things with cash to improve their experience. Players spending cash is the business model of this game. If you further reduce the fun, they make less money. Right now, they have it balanced well between giving options but having more carrots out of reach to encourage buying.

6) Multiclassing experts are often, frankly, wrong. Not wrong that their builds aren't 'correct', but ME's often worry about optimal builds, DPS etc over fun. I am a player, I want to have fun, true, I don't want to be a drag on the party either. But, if my character takes two extra rounds to slay 'X' but can do so and survive but has some fun trick I like. Kudos to me. I don't consider him gimped. Frankly, having cookie cutter characters is somewhat counter productive to the concept and feel of D&D.


In summary, whereas I respect your opinion, I find the basis of your arguments flawed and infact feel implementation of it would cause economic hardship for the company.

TheJusticar
10-13-2009, 08:09 PM
1) The assumption that new players = ignorant of how to multiclass is flawed. I have played D&D for 21+ years. It may not be exactly the same on DDO but I haven't had problems yet. Between PnP and other D&D games a new player can know how to multiclass.


You, my good sir are in the minority. Having created two lowbies to help out folks in Korthos when Mod9 hit, I can tell you of about maybe 100 people I've ran with only 2 had previous D&D experience and both of them came from the version of D&D that the lower your armor class, the better. I admit this is anecdotal in nature but such lopsided (98-2 or so) is almost self evident that most folks have no D&D background.



2) A player needs level 16. Congrats, you have just taken out a fun direction for those in #1 and F2P players. F2P will take a long time to level to level 16 as they have reduced quest options. Limiting options reduces fun. The current limitations allow enough fun not to get frustrated and quit.


I think I've said this about 5-6 times already in this very thread. Don't get hung on the level. It was a suggestion, not an absolute. Read the whole thread next time.



3) Leveling to level 16 in no way makes you an expert in multiclassing anyways. This is also a flawed argument.


read above.



4) Not all of us want to level to level 16 ...


Read above.



5) Multiclassing gives options, options encourage people to play more and hopefully buy things with cash to improve their experience. Players spending cash is the business model of this game. If you further reduce the fun, they make less money. Right now, they have it balanced well between giving options but having more carrots out of reach to encourage buying.


Of all your rebuttal this is the only one that makes sense. It's true that having people experiment with absurd builds will keep them around longer and more likely to spend $$$ on the store. So I have no argument here.




6) Multiclassing experts are often, frankly, wrong. Not wrong that their builds aren't 'correct', but ME's often worry about optimal builds, DPS etc over fun. I am a player, I want to have fun, true, I don't want to be a drag on the party either. But, if my character takes two extra rounds to slay 'X' but can do so and survive but has some fun trick I like. Kudos to me. I don't consider him gimped. Frankly, having cookie cutter characters is somewhat counter productive to the concept and feel of D&D.


I'm not by any stretch of the imagination a ME nor am I claiming to be one. In fact, my days of PnP have made me very reluctant to MC in this game. After I got my feet wet (about 1 year after I started playing DDO) and experimented with battle bards for a while only my 3 casters are pure blooded all the rest have splashes.



In summary, whereas I respect your opinion, I find the basis of your arguments flawed and infact feel implementation of it would cause economic hardship for the company.

In summary, you just as most people in this thread completely misread it and took this suggestion way to personal and prima facia. It was an idea, a concept. It could be modified, molded and malleable. It's not a freaking dogmatic treatise, it's a darn suggestion.

Godspeed.

TheJusticar
10-13-2009, 08:29 PM
You expect people to fill "roles" in your party. Your words, not mine.

Not, it's not my defintion at all. That IS what D&D is all about: a Role-Playing Game. You play a role. You are the cleric, you heal, turn undead maybe a little melee. You're the warrior you melee, you are the rogue, you disable traps, backstab. You're the bard and ... well bards get no respect in PnP :D (jack of all trades, master of none). The point is, depending what your primary class is, you are expected to fulfill a role. If you don't agree with that concept, you then have to talk to WotC and tell them that D&D shouldn't be an RPG.

Godspeed.

Bunker
10-13-2009, 08:41 PM
Nope No Never

Freeman
10-13-2009, 08:42 PM
Not, it's not my defintion at all. That IS what D&D is all about: a Role-Playing Game. You play a role. You are the cleric, you heal, turn undead maybe a little melee. You're the warrior you melee, you are the rogue, you disable traps, backstab. You're the bard and ... well bards get no respect in PnP :D (jack of all trades, master of none). The point is, depending what your primary class is, you are expected to fulfill a role. If you don't agree with that concept, you then have to talk to WotC and tell them that D&D shouldn't be an RPG.

*facepalm* I'm at a loss for words. You know the word "role" has multiple definitions, right? You picked the wrong one in this context.

TheJusticar
10-13-2009, 08:48 PM
You picked the wrong one in this context.

Please, let me know what role means in this instance. thx.

TheJusticar
10-13-2009, 08:49 PM
DUDE!!! My human 6barbarian 8wizy 6bard IS JUST FINE LEAVE ME ALONE!!!
8 str
9 dex
9 con
9 int
19 wis
17 chr
I CAN SOLO WW ELITE!!! :P I SOLOED TR THE OTHER DAY!!! AND IT ONLY TOOK ME 6 HOURS AND 1 HEAL WAND FROM THE DDO STORE :PPPP

I laughed so hard the wife came over computer room asking if I was chocking. :D

Jendrak
10-13-2009, 08:52 PM
Devs,

My gripe: Really. Not an elitist statement. No bad blood intended. Most new players who aren't familiar with D&D and don't take the time to learn perhaps aren't aware that multiclassing will probably ruin their toon -- at least until they re-roll/reincarnate. Many other MMOs there's no multiclassing as it is in DDO and since there's no concept of stats (in the D&D sense) if you choose two professions/classes there's no risk whatsoever of gimping your toon -- in fact, some MMOs will let you switch secondary classes at will. I'm a fairly inclusive person and have met really promising new players; however, the sheer quantity of gimped builds around is really disheartening. Again, not critiquing their builds from a min-max perspective but that 2wiz/2sorc/2clr has really no chance of being good at any. The 4wiz/4pal elf (60HPs, 20 AC) is not a very viable toon. An no these aren't so-called "experimental" builds built on purpose by teh ewbers, these are people who have no clue how to play the game and don't really understand the mechanics of the game.

My suggestion: please check if a player has at least one toon lvl 16+ on any server. If not, make them choose a pre-built path and do not allow them to multiclass (or give them a very harsh warning "IF YOU DO THIS YOU WILL DAMAGE YOUR CHARACTER PERMANENTLY").

Though this is no guarantee that they will suck at playing that character it at least assures that that build will at least fulfill the expected role and thus making life slightly less frustrating to those of us who like to run pugs.

Godspeed.

Worst idea ever.

Were you born good at DnD? Did you know exactly how to do everything on the first try?

Of course not, you learned throught trial and error. By makeing mistakes and screwing stuff up badly you learned what works and what doesn't just like the rest of us.

To take this away from begining players is practically begging of a whole generation of crappy players. Not because they are trying to be but because ideas like this would take away their chance to learn how to do it right.

Freeman
10-13-2009, 08:53 PM
Please, let me know what role means in this instance. thx.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_games

This should get you started, at least. Let me know if you need anything clarified.

TheJusticar
10-13-2009, 09:11 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_games

This should get you started, at least. Let me know if you need anything clarified.

From the article:

The players then create characters whose roles they will play in the game. As well as fleshing out the character's fictional background, they assign numerical statistics to the character; these will be used later to determine the outcome of events in the game. Together, these notes tell the player about their character and his or her place in the game world

Thanks for making my point.

UltraMonk2
10-13-2009, 09:42 PM
From what I have seen one of those reasons why a respec option is wanted by players is so that they can better handle new content that comes out, so if a respec option was available, then Turbine would need to create tougher content to satisfy the respeccers because the previous content is now so easy since they respecced (or built a new toon from scratch).

We already have reasonable respec options, you can reset your enhancements, swap feats out with Fred, and swap spells for those that need too. And now with the upcoming Reincarnation for those players that choose to do so they can rebuild their characters from scratch.

So what if you output 5% less DPS than the toon standing next to you, so what if you are a 4th Paladin that suddenly found another career path as a Wizard.

The main problem to me isn't the building of a toon, the main problem is people not being able to work together properly with what is in the group.

z0mbyjr
10-13-2009, 11:10 PM
I'm a new player... and I'm offended... jk.
I'm a PnP player, so I know enough about multi-classing...

Yes, a Wiz2/Clr2/Sor2 is complete garbage.
However, some new players like PnP'ers can do it right...
I think that there should be suggestions and reasons in-game why to multi-class, and which classes to multi as...

But something like an FvS18/Clr2 is a waste... a player'd miss out on the FvS Capstone, which is really good.

NameisToad
10-14-2009, 12:26 AM
I understand where you're coming from, op. I grouped tonight with a person playing a 6/2 Cleric/Paladin with 8 wisdom. He had 6 levels of cleric, but only 8 wisdom. Was wearing a +4 wisdom item and had the Cleric wisdom enhancements so he could cast some spells. I spent most of the night treating him like a paladin, since that's the role he filled in the group.

That said, I still don't think you should take away the ability to multiclass from anyone. One of the biggest things that sets this game apart from others is the nearly infinite character customization. It'd be nice if characters looked as unique as their stats ended up, but for now I'll take what we've got. Even when I keep coming across clerics with 8 wisdom. :) (This is the third one since September 1 :( )

NameisToad
10-14-2009, 12:32 AM
The players then create characters whose roles they will play in the game.

I always thought the 'role' in Role-Playing Game actually referred to taking on the identity and outlook of another person. Kind of like a method actor getting into a part, you take on another role. The sentence quoted from the article fits both readings/definitions.

Unfortunately, while pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons is definitely a Role-Playing Game, I think DDO is more of a First-Person Shooter, and team-based FPS games are all about people fulfilling their job descriptions, rather than people pretending to be someone else for a while.

Unsolicited $0.02...

Danandez
10-14-2009, 02:52 AM
Sorry to break this to you but...

1. People play games to entertain themselves, not to entertain you.

2. Besides your taking away from the replay value of this game if you would do such a thing.

3. Not to mention you could have the ultimate schematic laid out for character progression and still be a horrible player, trust me i've seen it first hand.

Mjoll
10-14-2009, 04:23 AM
Hello, is this the "1984, where Big Brother knows what's best for you" thread?... My initial reaction after reading the OP:


http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/7606/oven.jpg
Someone has a match?

Why not "It's better that 1000 guilty men go free than one innocent man be imprisoned" instead of "Kill them all, God will know his own"?

Bad experiences? I've had a few (bad new players, bad 2 year vet players or embarrassing mistakes I made), I'm guaranteed to have plenty more and to give a few to other players :) Btw how about bad players using pure class builds? Any suggestion to fix this? Like disallowing pure class builds until you hit level 16?

Freeman
10-14-2009, 05:09 AM
From the article:

The players then create characters whose roles they will play in the game. As well as fleshing out the character's fictional background, they assign numerical statistics to the character; these will be used later to determine the outcome of events in the game. Together, these notes tell the player about their character and his or her place in the game world

Thanks for making my point.

Again, you completely missed the point. Have you ever actually played PnP? Would you name your characters in those games Tank, Healer, Rogue, Mage, etc? When an actor plays a role in a film, are they playing the part of a healer or tank? No, they are playing the role of Iorden, last surviving member of his tribe after it was wiped out by the brutal orc invasion 20 years ago. You assume the role of a character, not the job of a character, in an epic story that you can participate actively in. After it is done, a player can tell the tale of how they saved the world from being enslaved by defeating the dragon lich after many trials. You are confusing video game RPGs, where your statements have some validity, with D&D, which is a different genre. If you modified your post to refer to DDO instead of D&D, it would be more viable.

Still, this is a discussion of D&D, not DDO, so I won't continue to derail your thread with a tangent. Besides, I have to go to work, where I don't have any forum access :(

vainangel
10-14-2009, 05:19 AM
My first character had 10 Con....
Silly me thought I could hide and evade things like in PnP...

I had to learn to make a good build. Took notes form builds around here as to what was proven to work and what was just gimptastic min-max... new players need to learn these things as well.

SquelchHU
10-14-2009, 07:15 AM
*snipped for brevity*

Hah. +1 rep. But 'Con based Exploiter'? The build only starts with 14 and has no base stat over 15. Yes obviously they end up much higher with items and level ups and so forth but how is that a Con based build.

Edit:


Another idea I could see is apply PnP rules for MCing. IIRC, MCing (or even splashing) in PnP was a very tough decision. Most DMs would only allow you MC at certain levels and only a number of levels. There were fairly steep penalties for doing so (XP penalties, perhaps lose feats/abilities, non-stacking BaB, etc.). In fact, in the much-hated 4e you are not allowed to splash 'till lvl11. Then again, I'm sure people would say is a "dumb idea" to implement the rules this game is entirely based on.

Godspeed.

Um, no it wasn't. The rules only interfered with unintelligent multiclassing. The smart kind where you're an x 1/y 19 or x 1/y 1/z 18 or dipped a bunch of classes for 1 or 2 levels because they have no worthwhile features beyond that is completely unhindered because the xp penalty rule only applies when class levels between classes are at least 2 apart.

Saying the DM can mess with it is an invalid argument because the DM can mess with anything, but it does not mean (s)he should. And in any case the only ones that bothered were the ones that needed the help so much that they would become complete non contributors if they didn't so if their efforts to be meaningful participants in the game were thwarted they'd just go play another game.

Salsa
10-14-2009, 08:02 AM
You, my good sir are in the minority. Having created two lowbies to help out folks in Korthos when Mod9 hit, I can tell you of about maybe 100 people I've ran with only 2 had previous D&D experience and both of them came from the version of D&D that the lower your armor class, the better. I admit this is anecdotal in nature but such lopsided (98-2 or so) is almost self evident that most folks have no D&D background.


>>Quite possible, I have no way of knowing. Also consider, those people that have played D&D(recent versions) before likely didn't need help. I never did. However, it would be fair to assume that at least 50% of players (an assumption based on the fact that a large number of players in Online games at some point grew up with WoW or such) have not played D&D or any version thereof (though Bladur's Gate etc was quite popular). Point being is thus, likely the people you run into are the people that need help because, well they are looking for it. It is akin to be a Computer Support and stating all your users are idiots given all the calls you get. Of course, those that reboot or fix it themselves aren't calling.

I frequently haunt the advice chats on all the servers giving advice and whatnot so I am quite aware of a some of the more common problems (they really need a guide for Korthos, people ask the same questions every ten minutes)



I think I've said this about 5-6 times already in this very thread. Don't get hung on the level. It was a suggestion, not an absolute. Read the whole thread next time.


>>I did read the whole thread actually. I just figured if you did not have the time to update the original suggestion, I wasn't going to take the time to parse every nuance that has occurred since the beginning. Fair yes? Regardless, a specific level is somewhat irrelevant. Any level past 6th is harder for F2P then a paid account. Players that already know how to multiclass would be punished. You are still reducing fun. Stop worrying about specifics and hear what people are trying to convey to you.



read above.

>>Read above. Ignore the 16 and try it again.





Read above.

>>Read above. Ignore the 16 and try again.



Of all your rebuttal this is the only one that makes sense. It's true that having people experiment with absurd builds will keep them around longer and more likely to spend $$$ on the store. So I have no argument here.

>>I am sorry that this is the only thing that made sense. I gave reasoning for each point.




I'm not by any stretch of the imagination a ME nor am I claiming to be one. In fact, my days of PnP have made me very reluctant to MC in this game. After I got my feet wet (about 1 year after I started playing DDO) and experimented with battle bards for a while only my 3 casters are pure blooded all the rest have splashes.

>>Never claimed you were a ME. You suggested that players at a certain level (since you don't seem to like level 16 being quoted) were better suited to multiclassing then people that have not achieved the level. That is a false assumption.



In summary, you just as most people in this thread completely misread it and took this suggestion way to personal and prima facia. It was an idea, a concept. It could be modified, molded and malleable. It's not a freaking dogmatic treatise, it's a darn suggestion.


>>Never took anything personal. But I do have one thought for you. When a majority of the people 'misread' what you wrote, you might want to consider, is the majority wrong or are you? True, there have been historical instances where the majority have been wrong, but throughout history the number of times the minority has been right over the majority isn't that common. Not that I am claiming to know every argument ever made.

Tolero
10-14-2009, 10:06 AM
Looks like we all agree to disagree.