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PestWulf
10-12-2009, 11:18 AM
Reposting this in a reply, I hit return before finished *blush*

PestWulf
10-12-2009, 11:30 AM
Hey there,

I'm trying to plan some fun builds, but I'm getting confused on the numbers as i'm trying to optimize a little. This thread may help others as well, so it's not all selfish (though I'd post if it only helped me as well :)


First off, I've noticed that viewing your bonus to hit in the inventory control panel on weapons seems to be broken. During a fight I've seen this number go from a +4 to hit all the way to a +17 and this is NOT because of various abilities, we are talking about a level 2 character in the Korthos Wilderness. So i'm having to discard all that potential data.

My real confusion is coming in the area of Criticals and how they are computed. Things I know:

1. Weapons have a Critical threat range. -- This range determines what roll on a d20 qualifies as a Critical chance.

2. There is a Critical Confirm stage. -- I do not know what the threshhold values are, but after a die roll has entered the Critical Threat range of a weapon, a seperate roll is conducted in which the critical is confirmed or denied.

3. A weapon carries a damage value and a Critical multiplier value. -- I know on a critical hit, it rolls the damage normally and then multiplies it with the critical multiplier value.

4. Weapon damage can be modified by stats, weapon effects, feats, enhancements, equipment and spells. -- When the damage is effected on a weapon, this is reflected in the inventory screen and appears accurate and unaffected by whatever bug is causing the "to hit" values to fluctuate.
QUESTION:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Q.4: What weapon damage is actually being multiplied? I know that Sneak attack values are outside of the critical multiplication process, but what about damage that is added via stats like Strength, or Feats like Weapon Specialization or Enhancements like Kensai weapon bonuses and racial +damage ones? Do these factor in pre-critical calculation or post-calculation?

5. Weapons can have modifiers. -- The maiming attribute on a weapon adds additional dice damage when a crit is confirmed. The number of dice added is determined by the critical multiplier listed on the weapon.
QUESTION:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Q.5: There are abilities that modify both the critical threat range and the critical multiplier. How do these interact with weapon modifiers like Maiming? If my weapon is a x2 crit multiplier and I have a feat or enhancement that increases the crit multiplier of my weapon, how does this effect attributes like Maiming? Will it use the adjusted value or go solely by the original base value of the weapon?

6. Weapons can have multiple modifiers. -- It looks as though weapons can have at least one prefix and postfix modifier as a minimum.
QUESTION:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Q.6: Is there a list somewhere of what all these values are and are there any rules to their potential combination? For example Maiming and Thundering both are modifiers that work of a critical hit, can they appear in the same weapon? Seeker and Maiming can appear and both work off of criticals though in a slightly different way, but I've never encountered other combinations and I wonder what is randomly allowed?


Thanks for reading! :)

Pwesiela
10-12-2009, 12:22 PM
Hey there,

I'm trying to plan some fun builds, but I'm getting confused on the numbers as i'm trying to optimize a little. This thread may help others as well, so it's not all selfish (though I'd post if it only helped me as well :)


First off, I've noticed that viewing your bonus to hit in the inventory control panel on weapons seems to be broken. During a fight I've seen this number go from a +4 to hit all the way to a +17 and this is NOT because of various abilities, we are talking about a level 2 character in the Korthos Wilderness. So i'm having to discard all that potential data.


Fights are real time and are effected by things you don't see while standing still looking at the inv panel. (movement, inherent attack chain bonuses, etc.)

My real confusion is coming in the area of Criticals and how they are computed. Things I know:

1. Weapons have a Critical threat range. -- This range determines what roll on a d20 qualifies as a Critical chance.

Correct. As long as that roll also manages to hit the mob. A 19 in the critical range with a +1 to hit against a mob with 40 AC ain't gonna get you a possible crit.

2. There is a Critical Confirm stage. -- I do not know what the threshhold values are, but after a die roll has entered the Critical Threat range of a weapon, a seperate roll is conducted in which the critical is confirmed or denied.

Threshold to confirm a critical hit is just to hit the mob again. It doesn't have to be within the crit range. I.e. You roll a 20 and you get in the crit range. You then roll a 4 with a +10 to hit a mob with an AC of 12. This confirming roll hits the mob and confirms the crit.

3. A weapon carries a damage value and a Critical multiplier value. -- I know on a critical hit, it rolls the damage normally and then multiplies it with the critical multiplier value.

Correct. It also adds in any additional damage that can be generated by enhancements such as "Seeker" "Bloodstone" (which is a seeker bonus) or "Kensai"

4. Weapon damage can be modified by stats, weapon effects, feats, enhancements, equipment and spells. -- When the damage is effected on a weapon, this is reflected in the inventory screen and appears accurate and unaffected by whatever bug is causing the "to hit" values to fluctuate.
QUESTION:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Q.4: What weapon damage is actually being multiplied? I know that Sneak attack values are outside of the critical multiplication process, but what about damage that is added via stats like Strength, or Feats like Weapon Specialization or Enhancements like Kensai weapon bonuses and racial +damage ones? Do these factor in pre-critical calculation or post-calculation?

Any damage bonuses that are applied before the critical multiplier are added. SA is not part of the actual critical hit, it's additional damage like holy or pure good. Strength bonuses, feats, enhancements, smites, bard songs, items, are all pre-critical multiplication bonuses.

5. Weapons can have modifiers. -- The maiming attribute on a weapon adds additional dice damage when a crit is confirmed. The number of dice added is determined by the critical multiplier listed on the weapon.
QUESTION:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Q.5: There are abilities that modify both the critical threat range and the critical multiplier. How do these interact with weapon modifiers like Maiming? If my weapon is a x2 crit multiplier and I have a feat or enhancement that increases the crit multiplier of my weapon, how does this effect attributes like Maiming? Will it use the adjusted value or go solely by the original base value of the weapon?

Maiming remains based on the weapons crit multiplier. It does not increase if you have an enhancement that adds a +1 to the critical multiplier. Same thing applies to holy burst, etc.

6. Weapons can have multiple modifiers. -- It looks as though weapons can have at least one prefix and postfix modifier as a minimum.
QUESTION:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Q.6: Is there a list somewhere of what all these values are and are there any rules to their potential combination? For example Maiming and Thundering both are modifiers that work of a critical hit, can they appear in the same weapon? Seeker and Maiming can appear and both work off of criticals though in a slightly different way, but I've never encountered other combinations and I wonder what is randomly allowed?

I don't know where a complete list can be found, but here's a partial one:

Prefix: Thundering, holy (burst), axiomatic (burst), anarchic (burst), true law, true chaos, seeker, elemental burst, vicious

Suffix: Maiming, pure good, good blast, elemental blast


Thanks for reading! :)

Hope it helps

zed1
10-12-2009, 12:59 PM
There are no enhancements or feats to increase a weapon's critical multiplier, but there may be some named weapons that have a different critical multiplier than the standard type.

Check this page for more information on weapon prefixes and suffixes:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Weapon_enhancement_summary

I'm not sure about the rules for combining prefixes and suffixes, but what you say sounds right. I can't think of a time that I have come across a weapon that did multiple types of damage on a critical hit. They could just be out of my price range on the AH.

Pwesiela
10-12-2009, 01:00 PM
There are no enhancements or feats to increase a weapon's critical multiplier, but there may be some named weapons that have a different critical multiplier than the standard type.

Kensai anyone?

Check this page for more information on weapon prefixes and suffixes:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Weapon_enhancement_summary

I'm not sure about the rules for combining prefixes and suffixes, but what you say sounds right. I can't think of a time that I have come across a weapon that did multiple types of damage on a critical hit. They could just be out of my price range on the AH.

Red.

zed1
10-12-2009, 01:11 PM
I understood the Kensai bonus to mean an increase in critical range not an increase in the critical multiplier.

Pwesiela
10-12-2009, 01:18 PM
I understood the Kensai bonus to mean an increase in critical range not an increase in the critical multiplier.

Whoops! Correct on Kensai. I was actually thinking Barbarian Frenzied Berzerker III, which does grant +1 to critical multipliers. Also can consider the grandfathered critical rage lines from pre-DDO:EU times.

Bronko
10-12-2009, 05:10 PM
There are no enhancements or feats to increase a weapon's critical multiplier, but there may be some named weapons that have a different critical multiplier than the standard type.

Check this page for more information on weapon prefixes and suffixes:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Weapon_enhancement_summary

I'm not sure about the rules for combining prefixes and suffixes, but what you say sounds right. I can't think of a time that I have come across a weapon that did multiple types of damage on a critical hit. They could just be out of my price range on the AH.

Not to nitpick but the Divine Sacrifice (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhancement:Paladin_Divine_Sacrifice_III) and Exalted Smite (http://ddowiki.com/page/Paladin_enhancements) enhancements for Paladins both increase the critical damage multiplier.

Pwesiela
10-12-2009, 05:39 PM
Not to nitpick but the Divine Sacrifice (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhancement:Paladin_Divine_Sacrifice_III) and Exalted Smite (http://ddowiki.com/page/Paladin_enhancements) enhancements for Paladins both increase the critical damage multiplier.

Those'll do it too.

Bronko
10-13-2009, 12:21 AM
Those'll do it too.

Thanks Pwesiela. I wasn't going to bother posting a reply since the first few did a perfectly fine job of answering the OPs question. And like I said in premise to my reply: "not to nitpick but..."

It's just that I like to see as much accuracy and clarity as I can in the New Player forums. I myself read some erroneous replies after my first couple of months of playing which lead to a really gimpy cleric running around the server for a while. A long while actually since it took me almost 8 months to be accidentally corrected through gameplay by another player. :o

I guess the biggest hesitation I had about posting a reply was in an effort to not contradict your sig. :D

Pwesiela
10-13-2009, 12:54 AM
It's just that I like to see as much accuracy and clarity as I can in the New Player forums. I myself read some erroneous replies after my first couple of months of playing which lead to a really gimpy cleric running around the server for a while. A long while actually since it took me almost 8 months to be accidentally corrected through gameplay by another player. :o

So YOU were that cleric....

I jest, I jest. i don't even play on your server. :p


I guess the biggest hesitation I had about posting a reply was in an effort to not contradict your sig. :D

Never contradict a dev :D

Quikster
10-13-2009, 01:41 AM
Hey there,

I'm trying to plan some fun builds, but I'm getting confused on the numbers as i'm trying to optimize a little. This thread may help others as well, so it's not all selfish (though I'd post if it only helped me as well :)


First off, I've noticed that viewing your bonus to hit in the inventory control panel on weapons seems to be broken. During a fight I've seen this number go from a +4 to hit all the way to a +17 and this is NOT because of various abilities, we are talking about a level 2 character in the Korthos Wilderness. So i'm having to discard all that potential data.

Your attack bonus goes up as you progress through your attack chain. So it is likely that you are seeing accuraty, or nearly accurate data. I say nearly because when the devs started tweaking attack speed, animations, and attack progression bonuses there was a visual bug that would leave your inv panel showing what your next attack bonus would be from your last attack sequence. I am not sure if this has been fixed. Watch your die roll or combat log for specific attacks. But in short, yes, your + to attack will change (increase) as you progress through your attack chain.

My real confusion is coming in the area of Criticals and how they are computed. Things I know:

1. Weapons have a Critical threat range. -- This range determines what roll on a d20 qualifies as a Critical chance.

2. There is a Critical Confirm stage. -- I do not know what the threshhold values are, but after a die roll has entered the Critical Threat range of a weapon, a seperate roll is conducted in which the critical is confirmed or denied.

This threshold is the same as a normal hit. So you need 2 die rolls to crit. The first which is your normal attack, and needs to fall within the critical range. The second needs to simply hit the mob. So say you are facing a mob with a 20 ac. Your first roll is a 19. Critical hit. The next roll is to confirm the critical hit. You need to roll a hit (whatever your +to attack added to your die roll) to confirm the critical.


3. A weapon carries a damage value and a Critical multiplier value. -- I know on a critical hit, it rolls the damage normally and then multiplies it with the critical multiplier value.

4. Weapon damage can be modified by stats, weapon effects, feats, enhancements, equipment and spells. -- When the damage is effected on a weapon, this is reflected in the inventory screen and appears accurate and unaffected by whatever bug is causing the "to hit" values to fluctuate.
QUESTION:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Q.4: What weapon damage is actually being multiplied? I know that Sneak attack values are outside of the critical multiplication process, but what about damage that is added via stats like Strength, or Feats like Weapon Specialization or Enhancements like Kensai weapon bonuses and racial +damage ones? Do these factor in pre-critical calculation or post-calculation?


This is where it starts to get confusing. Basically the rule of thumb is base damage is multiplied, plus any seeker damage. So str, weapon, buffs, feats and enhancement that boost base damage, racial bonuses, etc all multiply. Elemental damage, alignment damage etc dont* multiply.

*There is an effect called "burst" that adds damage to your criticals, but it is a set amount of damage based upon the weapon multiplier, it is not added to your base damage.



5. Weapons can have modifiers. -- The maiming attribute on a weapon adds additional dice damage when a crit is confirmed. The number of dice added is determined by the critical multiplier listed on the weapon.
QUESTION:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Q.5: There are abilities that modify both the critical threat range and the critical multiplier. How do these interact with weapon modifiers like Maiming? If my weapon is a x2 crit multiplier and I have a feat or enhancement that increases the crit multiplier of my weapon, how does this effect attributes like Maiming? Will it use the adjusted value or go solely by the original base value of the weapon?


Untyped damage (maiming, vicsious, etc) are not added to your base damage, hence they are not "multiplied" by your critical. Basically if it says it does 2d6 on a x2 critical weapon, thats all it does. However, you also asked about modification to threat range. A crit is a crit is a crit. So "maiming" or "burst" damage will go off on a crit, even if you crit on a 13. The point is you must crit. So this type of damage is typically better with a higher threat crit range, but usually the lower the threat, the higher number d6 you get on the effect. IE: 2d6 on a x2 weapon, 3d6 on a x3 weapon.


6. Weapons can have multiple modifiers. -- It looks as though weapons can have at least one prefix and postfix modifier as a minimum.
QUESTION:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Q.6: Is there a list somewhere of what all these values are and are there any rules to their potential combination? For example Maiming and Thundering both are modifiers that work of a critical hit, can they appear in the same weapon? Seeker and Maiming can appear and both work off of criticals though in a slightly different way, but I've never encountered other combinations and I wonder what is randomly allowed?

I didnt check the link from another poster, but its prolly a good place to start :eek:
Thanks for reading! :)

In happy lime instead of evil red :D
One other thing to note here, as you progress in the game you encounter Mobs with varying degrees of fortification. The fort works for them, just like us. So if a mob had 50% fort and you roll and confirm a crit, there is a chance the critical hit will be resisted. This however only applies to the base damage multiplier. If you have an alignment burst weapon that procs on criticals, the Mob will still take the alignment damage (provided they are vulnerable to that particular alignment damage). The same thing goes for untyped damage.

Hope some of this helped

mediocresurgeon
10-13-2009, 01:48 AM
3. A weapon carries a damage value and a Critical multiplier value. -- I know on a critical hit, it rolls the damage normally and then multiplies it with the critical multiplier value.

Just a minor correction here: Strictly speaking, the damage is not multiplied. It is just rolled several times.

Example:
~x3 crit multiplier on a d6 weapon under your rules would grant a 1-in-6 chance (roll a d6 one time, multiply result by 3 )of doing 18 damage.
~Under actual rules, there is only a 1-in-216 (roll 3d6, add them together) chance of doing 18 damage.

Of course, this works both ways--instead of a 1-in-6 chance of doing only 3 damage, there is actually only a 1-in-216 chance to do minumum damage. The average critical hit damage is unaltered between these two systems, but is less likely to do a really terrible/really awesome critical.

Vanda
10-13-2009, 01:54 AM
Not to nitpick but the Divine Sacrifice (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhancement:Paladin_Divine_Sacrifice_III) and Exalted Smite (http://ddowiki.com/page/Paladin_enhancements) enhancements for Paladins both increase the critical damage multiplier.


As does the Frenzied Berzerker PRC, more than once even depending on how many levels of it you take.

While raging, the critical multiplier of all weapons you use is increased by an additional 1

mediocresurgeon
10-13-2009, 02:37 AM
As does the Frenzied Berzerker PRC

The FB only increases your critical multiplier on roles of 19-20, so be warned!