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redraider
10-12-2009, 09:44 AM
Turbine this blows. I love my toons that have reached 20. On the other hand, I have 5+ toons around lvl 17 that i would rather not grind to 20. Make True Rez available at 15 please! That means still alot of work to get there, but not the grind on all out previosuly capped toons to 20. Remember, we had over a year of no updates to grind everything to 16 (and one xp makes 17...).

Please, please make it 15 to true rez!

GeneralDiomedes
10-12-2009, 09:51 AM
There really is no limit to complaints is there?

redraider
10-12-2009, 09:59 AM
There really is no limit to complaints is there?

There is a limit to the desire to grind for grindings sake.

To take 3 or 4 lvl 17 toons to 20 just to start over? I'll pass thank you.

lanthan
10-12-2009, 10:35 AM
If they have a fair amount of raid loot I can't see why you would object to lvling up a bit to keep it when you reroll. If they don't have any worthwhile raid loot why do you need a true reincarnation.

Stamp3de
10-12-2009, 10:40 AM
Turbine this blows. I love my toons that have reached 20. On the other hand, I have 5+ toons around lvl 17 that i would rather not grind to 20. Make True Rez available at 15 please! That means still alot of work to get there, but not the grind on all out previosuly capped toons to 20. Remember, we had over a year of no updates to grind everything to 16 (and one xp makes 17...).

Please, please make it 15 to true rez!

I don't see wat True rez has to do with grinding...

Baahb3
10-12-2009, 10:42 AM
Not to sound too obtuse but, really you have 3 or 4 MORE characters that are in need of True Reincarnate?

I am sorry if you have that many characters that need that level of reincarnation.

GunboatDiplomat
10-12-2009, 10:54 AM
Not to sound too obtuse but, really you have 3 or 4 MORE characters that are in need of True Reincarnate?

I am sorry if you have that many characters that need that level of reincarnation.

He's not the only one :o

So,

/signed

Gol
10-12-2009, 10:57 AM
The inherent problem is that people wanted a Respec system, not another power grind. Turbine has changed the rules and features so many times that builds just get broken. Place the blame where you want, but people came up with builds for specific purposes and features that, now, either simply don't work or are significantly suboptimal. Turbine's answer is to start at level 1 and reroll (but keep gear)? So, basically, the only difference from before is that we get to keep gear? That's good, I suppose, for people that invest in grinding for gear, but many of us design builds that are good independent of gear, and True Reincarnation is not much consolation (over deleting/rerolling).

My basic problem is that I level slowly. I don't have time to relevel characters. I level fairly methodically and take my time to do the content. It takes me 6+ months to level a character to 16. Since DDO:EU came out, I have 2 guys to 18 and that's about it. Rerolling to fix 1 class level is unfathomable to me, even if I get to keep my gear. I have 1 exception to this, and that's a character that would benefit quite a bit from the +2 character points - I actually like his class breakdown as it is now.

Strakeln
10-12-2009, 10:57 AM
Not to sound too obtuse but, really you have 3 or 4 MORE characters that are in need of True Reincarnate?

I am sorry if you have that many characters that need that level of reincarnation.
You've been around for three years and don't? Sounds like you've already rerolled most of them.

Plain and simple, the vast majority of characters that have been around for 2 or more years are far from optimal at this point. You may be okay with this for your characters, but don't expect others to feel the same.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-12-2009, 11:01 AM
The inherent problem is that people wanted a Respec system, not another power grind. Turbine has changed the rules and features so many times that builds just get broken. Place the blame where you want, but people came up with builds for specific purposes and features that, now, either simply don't work or are significantly suboptimal. Turbine's answer is to start at level 1 and reroll (but keep gear)? So, basically, the only difference from before is that we get to keep gear? That's good, I suppose, for people that invest in grinding for gear, but many of us design builds that are good independent of gear, and True Reincarnation is not much consolation (over deleting/rerolling).

My basic problem is that I level slowly. I don't have time to relevel characters. I level fairly methodically and take my time to do the content. It takes me 6+ months to level a character to 16. Since DDO:EU came out, I have 2 guys to 18 and that's about it. Rerolling to fix 1 class level is unfathomable to me, even if I get to keep my gear. I have 1 exception to this, and that's a character that would benefit quite a bit from the +2 character points - I actually like his class breakdown as it is now.

exactly...please consider adding your voice here
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206572

GoldyGopher
10-12-2009, 11:13 AM
Turbine this blows. I love my toons that have reached 20. On the other hand, I have 5+ toons around lvl 17 that i would rather not grind to 20. Make True Rez available at 15 please! That means still alot of work to get there, but not the grind on all out previosuly capped toons to 20. Remember, we had over a year of no updates to grind everything to 16 (and one xp makes 17...).

Please, please make it 15 to true rez!

I am going to strongly disagree here.

1) Not to be nit picky, but it is True Reincarnation.

2) Turbine is also offering both Lesser and Greater Reincarnations available at any level.
I have two Level 17 Characters who thanks to the changes in the Meta Game over the past couple of years were made obsolete, both were in line to be rerolled or replaced. However with access to Lesseer Reincarnations that one point that I should have put into Stat X instead of Stat Y, I can now correct without rerolling.

3) To the corect build True Reincarnation can be extremely powerful.
4) True Reincanation isn't as powerful and as great as many people make it out to be.
Yes 3 and 4 go together. For the casual player True Reincarnation isn't anywhere near as powerful as it is for the hard core gamer. Simply TR a Fighter to a Fighter isn't going to make a Fighter who can do more DPS (at least not more than can be done with Lesser Reincarnation). The reason is +2 (or +4) points in the build process is not going to increase your PRIMARY STAT or STATS. You need 6 points. What it is going to increase is your fourth or fifth stat, that means Multi-Class or a couple of specific single class builds.

5) I hate to tell you this but it isn't difficult to level from 15 to 20. Until Turbine lowers the XP in exisiting quests (pre-EU) there is a metric donkey dung ton of XP available out there. My solo play character is 30K from level 20 without running a single EU quest. Heck I play her a lot less than my main three characters and she has kept up with my characters running the new quests.

My General advice to players so far is that a Lesser Reincarnation (or Greater for 28 point builds) is probably the most bang for you buck and time so to speak.
Now I still understand that a couple of things I would like to see addressed, Alignement and Dropping a level of something to redo it. All those characters with three four levels of a multi-class that because of new PrE would be better with two levels Max.

Baahb3
10-12-2009, 11:44 AM
You've been around for three years and don't? Sounds like you've already rerolled most of them.

Plain and simple, the vast majority of characters that have been around for 2 or more years are far from optimal at this point. You may be okay with this for your characters, but don't expect others to feel the same.

To be honest, no I don't. I have one 28 pointer left over that will be going through the True Reincarnate process and that is it.

While my characters may not be 'optimal' they are all useful, efficiant and playable at end game, but then again I never designed and leveled a flavor of the month build or one around the newest enhancments/gear/feats that came out.

Are there some things that I would change with some of them, sure, but not to the point where 2 build points and being able to choose different classes would warrent a True Reincarnate.

And yes I do have a cleric with one level of sorc and a ranged ranger with 2 levels of fighter, neither are so unplayable at endgame that I would reincarnate them.

Build solid all around characters and any percieved 'mistakes' will not make you gimped in the least.

redraider
10-12-2009, 11:55 AM
I have 2 28 point builds I would love to reincarnate. They have my original two names which I am still known by and have a ton of raid loot and each a Tier 3 shroud item. They are worth reincarnating, but not if I have to spend a month bringing them up so I can tear them down.

I want to reincarnate a 17 clr as an exploiter and a 17 Barb as a pali/monk splash. It IS a lot of grinding to go from 17 to 20 on a toon that is just going to start all over.

Turbine, give your longtime players with lots of toons a break. Make the Ture Rez for toons over lvl 15, not 20!

You'll make a lot more money on the True Rez DDO store item with a 15 or 17 lvl range than with 20!

Emili
10-12-2009, 11:59 AM
I am confused? Level 17 to 20 is but a small amount of experience grind... most of which would be made up in raiding and flagging for the new raid. Top that off with the fact you keep raid loot and really only throw away tomes? To me it seems like little grind... and an opportunity to pop and store tomes and raid loot for the future of the True Reincarnated toon...

ie.) level 17 run tower - rewarded a +4 tome, bank it, rewarded ring, bank it, rewarded trophies bank them, running shroud, more ingredients, .... then at level 20 with everything tossed in the bank... True Reincarnate, and you already know what you have in merit of tomes - such a character be better off then a level 20 who True Reincarnated giving up +3 +4 tomes already eaten... such a character may need less grinding later...

Instead the time grinding from 17-20 pre true res helped the plan of where to go after true res Whereas a level 20 may have by taking True Reincarnate on release date of the new mod may actually be behind some.

Personally, my plan... I wish to True Res my Emili (a level 20 Kensai), Three +3 tomes exist and three +2 tomes on her... I have a +2 pre-mod 9 int tome (no min lvl) in bank with her name on it for the very last True res I would plan... Meantime, I would not True Res her off start... I would farm for a few +3 to +4 tomes prior and bank them. Then and only then shall I be inclined to toss all that favor (grrrr, she just shy of cap again) and True Reincarnate. The logic here? Well the grind from 1-12 is more xp in time then from 13-20... and less retainable end loot then that which drops for 13-20.

It is possible to run a lvl 1-20 xp binge within 72 hours - of course burnout and insanity may occur - the difference between a 17-20 in loot yields much the same and the time for the xp very small... my main was capped within 4-5 days and I was not even trying, if anything I was holding back and playing many lowbies. Consider level 17-20 an opportunity to plan and prepare for the True Reincarnate.

redraider
10-12-2009, 12:00 PM
I don't see wat True rez has to do with grinding...

To take a toon from Lvl 17 to Lvl 20 knowing you will go right back to lvl 1 = grind. I don't mind the starting at Lvl 1 again. I do mind the wasted grind to take the toon from 17 to 20!

maddmatt70
10-12-2009, 12:00 PM
/signed. Even if true reincarnation was level 17 it would be an improvement. This is all about rewarding veteran players who have stuck through everything. I would even settle for a 1 week period where turbine lowered this feature to 17 so the veteran players could true reincarnate characters and then raise this feature back to level 20. Forcing veteran players to grind to level 20 in order to rectify a character made obsolete by decisions Turbine made is undue punishment in my opinion.

The_Ick
10-12-2009, 12:01 PM
I am going to strongly disagree here.

1) Not to be nit picky, but it is True Reincarnation.

2) Turbine is also offering both Lesser and Greater Reincarnations available at any level.
I have two Level 17 Characters who thanks to the changes in the Meta Game over the past couple of years were made obsolete, both were in line to be rerolled or replaced. However with access to Lesseer Reincarnations that one point that I should have put into Stat X instead of Stat Y, I can now correct without rerolling.

3) To the corect build True Reincarnation can be extremely powerful.
4) True Reincanation isn't as powerful and as great as many people make it out to be.
Yes 3 and 4 go together. For the casual player True Reincarnation isn't anywhere near as powerful as it is for the hard core gamer. Simply TR a Fighter to a Fighter isn't going to make a Fighter who can do more DPS (at least not more than can be done with Lesser Reincarnation). The reason is +2 (or +4) points in the build process is not going to increase your PRIMARY STAT or STATS. You need 6 points. What it is going to increase is your fourth or fifth stat, that means Multi-Class or a couple of specific single class builds.

5) I hate to tell you this but it isn't difficult to level from 15 to 20. Until Turbine lowers the XP in exisiting quests (pre-EU) there is a metric donkey dung ton of XP available out there. My solo play character is 30K from level 20 without running a single EU quest. Heck I play her a lot less than my main three characters and she has kept up with my characters running the new quests.

My General advice to players so far is that a Lesser Reincarnation (or Greater for 28 point builds) is probably the most bang for you buck and time so to speak.
Now I still understand that a couple of things I would like to see addressed, Alignement and Dropping a level of something to redo it. All those characters with three four levels of a multi-class that because of new PrE would be better with two levels Max.

Whether you think TR should be changed to be more favorable or GR should be increased to allow you to swap out levels, it is really the same thing. I think the OPs point is that he can't reasonable fix his toons with the 3 options that Turbine presented.

I am in the same boat. 2 of my main toons are screwed without an actual respec.

maddmatt70
10-12-2009, 12:01 PM
I am confused? Level 17 to 20 is but a small amount of experience grind... most of which would be made up in raiding and flagging for the new raid. Top that off with the fact you keep raid loot and really only throw away tomes? To me it seems like little grind... and an opportunity to pop and store tomes and raid loot for the future of the true res toon... ie.) level 17 run tower - rewarded a +4 tome, bank it, rewarded ring, bank it, rewarded trophies bank them, running shroud, more ingredients, .... then at level 20 with everything tossed in the bank... True Res, and you already know what you have in merit of tomes - such a character be better off then a level 20 who True Res'd giving up +3 +4 tomes already eaten... such a character may need less grinding later... instead the time grinding from 17-20 pre true res helped the plan of where to go after true res.



In the current game its a hideous grind Emili. I have levelled 4 characters to 20 and it sucks..

The_Ick
10-12-2009, 12:02 PM
/signed. Even if true reincarnation was level 17 it would be an improvement. This is all about rewarding veteran players who have stuck through everything. I would even settle for a 1 week period where turbine lowered this feature to 17 so the veteran players could true reincarnate characters and then raise this feature back to level 20. Forcing veteran players to grind to level 20 in order to rectify a character made obsolete by decisions Turbine made is undue punishment in my opinion.

This is 100% correct. Vets got shafted. I don't think it is to much to ask for to get a little leway from the devs.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-12-2009, 12:02 PM
I would even settle for a 1 week period where turbine lowered this feature to 17 so the veteran players could true reincarnate characters and then raise this feature back to level 20. Forcing veteran players to grind to level 20 in order to rectify a character made obsolete by decisions Turbine made is undue punishment in my opinion.

That's not a bad compromise.

GoldyGopher
10-12-2009, 12:17 PM
Whether you think TR should be changed to be more favorable or GR should be increased to allow you to swap out levels, it is really the same thing. I think the OPs point is that he can't reasonable fix his toons with the 3 options that Turbine presented.

I am in the same boat. 2 of my main toons are screwed without an actual respec.

I don't think they are the same thing.

Now I understand the issue of have to replace a level of class X with a level of class y, which is not currently covered with either lesser or greater. So let us assume that is your problem.

You are at level 17 to get to level 20 you need to earn less than 600K XP, even with the **** XP in the new quests that is 40 to 60 quests, minus whatever you earn as "bonus" xp in the adventure areas. (Which is a lot by the way). A hard core player should easily earn that in about 15 to 20 hours of play time and even a casual player should earn that in under 25 hours. Too me it is still easier to go from 17 to 20 than 11 to 14.

Plus you get to keep the gear you earn. Go run your 20/40/60 shroud with the toon and you know what, if you get that +3 tome you have always wanted go put it into the bank. That way when your TR toon is level 11 you got the tome you have planed on taking without having to run another 20 shrouds.

Just my thoughts anyways.

maddmatt70
10-12-2009, 12:27 PM
You are at level 17 to get to level 20 you need to earn less than 600K XP, even with the **** XP in the new quests that is 40 to 60 quests, minus whatever you earn as "bonus" xp in the adventure areas. (Which is a lot by the way). A hard core player should easily earn that in about 15 to 20 hours of play time and even a casual player should earn that in under 25 hours. Too me it is still easier to go from 17 to 20 than 11 to 14.



I am going to dispute what you posted here. First, if you are a veteran player with a character that has been around you do not get first time bonus for normal, hard, elite difficulties on alot of quests because the character in question is old and has run those previously. For a newer character it is far easier to get from level 17-20. Second, level 11-14 is still fairly easy to get through. The gianthold quests were nerfed so there is not the farm the crucible and madstone to level 14 anymore, but there are some great xp quests out there and in fact some quest's xp was improved. Your estimates for getting from 11-14 is way off. This can be done in 6-8 hours of actual gametime despite the gianthold nerfs. I currently have a character in that level range so I know firsthand.

krud
10-12-2009, 12:29 PM
Think of it in the same light as the 32pt favor grind. Both are essentially a grind toward a reroll.

However, i think the minimum could be lowered to 17. It coincides with highest level range for the flawless dragonshard respec.

Strakeln
10-12-2009, 12:46 PM
To be honest, no I don't. I have one 28 pointer left over that will be going through the True Reincarnate process and that is it.

While my characters may not be 'optimal' they are all useful, efficiant and playable at end game, but then again I never designed and leveled a flavor of the month build or one around the newest enhancments/gear/feats that came out.

Are there some things that I would change with some of them, sure, but not to the point where 2 build points and being able to choose different classes would warrent a True Reincarnate.

And yes I do have a cleric with one level of sorc and a ranged ranger with 2 levels of fighter, neither are so unplayable at endgame that I would reincarnate them.

Build solid all around characters and any percieved 'mistakes' will not make you gimped in the least.
As I stated:

You may be okay with this for your characters, but don't expect others to feel the same.

You may be okay with a cleric with one level of sorc, don't expect others to feel the same.

Strakeln
10-12-2009, 12:47 PM
/signed. Even if true reincarnation was level 17 it would be an improvement. This is all about rewarding veteran players who have stuck through everything. I would even settle for a 1 week period where turbine lowered this feature to 17 so the veteran players could true reincarnate characters and then raise this feature back to level 20. Forcing veteran players to grind to level 20 in order to rectify a character made obsolete by decisions Turbine made is undue punishment in my opinion.

Not a bad compromise.

(edit: posted before I saw Lorien's post)

Thriand
10-12-2009, 12:55 PM
I'm fine with your first reincarnation being allowed at level 15, so long as the second requires that you go all the way to level 20.

I don't want characters encouraged to reroll level to 15 and reroll immediately again.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-12-2009, 12:59 PM
I'm fine with your first reincarnation being allowed at level 15, so long as the second requires that you go all the way to level 20.

I don't want characters encouraged to reroll level to 15 and reroll immediately again.

Also not a bad idea.

GoldyGopher
10-12-2009, 01:00 PM
I am going to dispute what you posted here. First, if you are a veteran player with a character that has been around you do not get first time bonus for normal, hard, elite difficulties on alot of quests because the character in question is old and has run those previously. For a newer character it is far easier to get from level 17-20. Second, level 11-14 is still fairly easy to get through. The gianthold quests were nerfed so there is not the farm the crucible and madstone to level 14 anymore, but there are some great xp quests out there and in fact some quest's xp was improved. Your estimates for getting from 11-14 is way off. This can be done in 6-8 hours of actual gametime despite the gianthold nerfs. I currently have a character in that level range so I know firsthand.

It's not the primary quests you should be running but the secondary quests, the one that you have run once on elite for favor. I call it hidden XP and there is really really a lot of it out there to be had.

You have run every adventure in the Gianthold on Normal, Hard and Elite?
You have run out all the XP out of the Gianthold, Orchard and Vale.

My primary character went from 17 to 18 just running the side quests (excluding TBF) in the Gianthold on Hard and or a couple on elite. Not PoP, Madstone, or Crucible, but the side quests like Cry for Help, Foundation of Dicord, Feast or Famine, a Cabal for one. Than I realized I hadn't run the side quests in the Sands on Hard and Elite and with just few runs out there I was dang near 19. Not a single new quest, not any of the quests I had run to death. Heck it was almost like new content. The reason I could do all this solo (except Maze of Madness) is Dungeon Scaling. It was easy.

Haven't cleaned out all the XP in the Gianthold, Orchard, or Vale yet? If not let me tell you about my runs out there with my primary character, in excess of 75K. Yeah it took me about six hours but it still was better XP than most of the new quests. And I still have tens of thousands of more XP to earn but it will take a little while since I now need to kill about 750 mobs in each catagory (at about 200 an hour) to get the next level point. Two characters in the vale could get that done in about 2 to 2 1/2 hours for 35K xp (assuming you had 750 killed in each catagory).

krud
10-12-2009, 01:09 PM
I am going to dispute what you posted here. First, if you are a veteran player with a character that has been around you do not get first time bonus for normal, hard, elite difficulties on alot of quests because the character in question is old and has run those previously.
If a character is so old that they have done all those quests on N/H/E then how come they are only at level 15? Seems like there should be plenty of XP left for an old character who has been parked at 15.

Emili
10-12-2009, 01:09 PM
In the current game its a hideous grind Emili. I have levelled 4 characters to 20 and it sucks..

Really? Is the grind that bad now? I know for last cap all eleven of mine sat for so long as I could not reroll so often for fear of losing a slot...

I only have two capped at the moment and a third just shy, eight others am only playing as service to guild, etc... But I have not focus'd at all to cap as I once did.

All eleven girls went from level 14 to 16 within the work-week the vale mod appeared... this was typical of me in the past on every cap increase, to go, go and go reguardless of what others - guildies included - had asked of me... my regret was the 14-16 push was one of the catalyst in which Jhaxcynn left the Heroes. I killed off 4 slots and managed back 2 then Kynah and Myara capped withing two-three weeks after the monk was released...

To me the largest grind in the game of course yeilds the least of gain - favor. Which is the biggest deterent for me to take near favor capped toons and regrind that. Regain of favor be the slowest of things as people just do not care to run quests with no real end game loot yeilds... they point direction towards the large xp chains and quests to surge upward in level and revisit that for favor well after being no longer level appropriate. Most time taken standing around with an lfm persay to do lvl 4 necro on eilite while at level is better served xp-wise elsewhere.

I do take your advice and trust your opinion Norg, that should this be in best interest, I concur.

bobbryan2
10-12-2009, 01:09 PM
You should be able to true rencarnate whenever you want to.

But if you true reincarnate before 20, you don't get stat points, bigger stature, nor past-life feats.

maddmatt70
10-12-2009, 01:12 PM
It's not the primary quests you should be running but the secondary quests, the one that you have run once on elite for favor. I call it hidden XP and there is really really a lot of it out there to be had.

You have run every adventure in the Gianthold on Normal, Hard and Elite?
You have run out all the XP out of the Gianthold, Orchard and Vale.

My primary character went from 17 to 18 just running the side quests (excluding TBF) in the Gianthold on Hard and or a couple on elite. Not PoP, Madstone, or Crucible, but the side quests like Cry for Help, Foundation of Dicord, Feast or Famine, a Cabal for one. Than I realized I hadn't run the side quests in the Sands on Hard and Elite and with just few runs out there I was dang near 19. Not a single new quest, not any of the quests I had run to death. Heck it was almost like new content. The reason I could do all this solo (except Maze of Madness) is Dungeon Scaling. It was easy.

Haven't cleaned out all the XP in the Gianthold, Orchard, or Vale yet? If not let me tell you about my runs out there with my primary character, in excess of 75K. Yeah it took me about six hours but it still was better XP than most of the new quests. And I still have tens of thousands of more XP to earn but it will take a little while since I now need to kill about 750 mobs in each catagory (at about 200 an hour) to get the next level point. Two characters in the vale could get that done in about 2 to 2 1/2 hours for 35K xp (assuming you had 750 killed in each catagory).

My advice to you sir for the level 11-14 range is to explore the quests out there because you are obviously clueless on the quests that give xp. For the lvl 17-20 range I know what the best quests are as well and again it is a hideous grind for an older character. It is far easier to get a newer character in there especially if they need to get raid flagged or are looking for specific loot. I have capped 4 level 20 so I know what works and does not so do not insult my intelligence.

Belwaar
10-12-2009, 01:18 PM
This is me thinking out loud, but if you True Reincarnate at level 17, you shouldn't get the extra 2 pts and feat...

IMO, I think you should only get the benefits of stuff like that if you do at lvl 20...

Emili
10-12-2009, 01:24 PM
This is me thinking out loud, but if you True Reincarnate at level 17, you shouldn't get the extra 2 pts and feat...

IMO, I think you should only get the benefits of stuff like that if you do at lvl 20...
Obviously this turns into nothing but a reroll - and keep your bound loot. Persay hardly worth the effort involved to partake in. One would sooner at greater reincarnate unless they wished to spec out a level or two... again that becomes a possibility of looking at re-roll, depending on how much raid loot is involved.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-12-2009, 01:28 PM
This is me thinking out loud, but if you True Reincarnate at level 17, you shouldn't get the extra 2 pts and feat...

IMO, I think you should only get the benefits of stuff like that if you do at lvl 20...

Another reasonable approach. If you took this approach there would be no reason to to a level limit on it at all for reincarnations below L20.

Belwaar
10-12-2009, 01:31 PM
Another reasonable approach. If you took this approach there would be no reason to to a level limit on it at all for reincarnations below L20.

I think this is how they should implement Greater...

Lesser let's you fix skill points, etc.
Greater let's you fix levels, skill points, convert your 28 pt builds, etc.
True let's you become something "more" ;)

Emili
10-12-2009, 01:57 PM
I think this is how they should implement Greater...

Lesser let's you fix skill points, etc.
Greater let's you fix levels, skill points, convert your 28 pt builds, etc.
True let's you become something "more" ;)

I totally agree... level fixes, alignment fixes, build point vamp should be something greater does.

As it stands currently think of this... we respec enhancements, we respec feats and spontaneous casters respec spells. Here we have something really not much different in request of skills, alignment or build point. Both lesser and greater really fall akin to the current respc systems in many ways when you think about it. It is unfudging something about the character you do not like.

True reincarnation - adds more... additional points, options for past life feats, etc...

Thrudh
10-12-2009, 01:57 PM
IYou are at level 17 to get to level 20 you need to earn less than 600K XP, even with the **** XP in the new quests that is 40 to 60 quests, minus whatever you earn as "bonus" xp in the adventure areas. (Which is a lot by the way). A hard core player should easily earn that in about 15 to 20 hours of play time and even a casual player should earn that in under 25 hours.

First off, it's more than 40-60 quests... You're saying quests average 10k to 15k exp each? Plus a casual player isn't going to run 60 quests in under 25 hours... You really think they can run 2 end-game quests every hour? I'm somewhere between casual and powergamer and it takes a lot longer than that... Getting a group together takes time... quests take longer in PUGs...

The powergamers in elite guilds have ZERO idea of how long it takes to do anything for the casual or even moderate powergamers...

Very very few people go from 1-20 in 2 weeks or even a month... Yet you guys come out here and like it's no big deal... Someone was posting how it's possible to go 1-20 in 72 hours... Sure it may be possible, but no game decisions should be based on outlier data like that.

GoldyGopher
10-12-2009, 02:00 PM
My advice to you sir for the level 11-14 range is to explore the quests out there because you are obviously clueless on the quests that give xp. For the lvl 17-20 range I know what the best quests are as well and again it is a hideous grind for an older character. It is far easier to get a newer character in there especially if they need to get raid flagged or are looking for specific loot. I have capped 4 level 20 so I know what works and does not so do not insult my intelligence.

I think we are talking about two sepearte issues on the matter.

First there is a ton of XP out there for characters in the 17 to 20 level range that virtually everyone has the ability to get in relatively short order. Saying "you should lower the level on TR because I don't want to level to 20 on a "bad" or "outdated" toon" just doesn't fly with me. You dropped 60 to 100 plus hours into the character to get them to 17 telling me that 10 15 20 more hours is too much; please.

Second there is the issue of people who did things that no longer make sense, and I am talking about alignment and those weird class levels. I don't think solving those belong in any of the exisiting catagories, Lesser, Greater or True reincarnations. Rather I think something along the lines of a Superior Reincarnation that allows a player to correct "one" thing such as "Alignment" or "Class Level" would be a better solution. You don't want to make it so easy that anyone can rebuild characters 4 times over in a month but you want to be able to fix those "why the hell did I make hime Lawful Neutral?" issues.

Minor_Threat
10-12-2009, 02:17 PM
These kinds of complaints are ridiculous.

If they lower the level to 15 (Which is random BTW, why not a previous cap level? Or is it just because it fits the whims of the OP?)

A week after the change to 15, someone would say "HEY, I think it should be 12, because blah blah blah"

Suck it up and get to 20, it's hardly a grind, plus anything you pick up along the way that is bound is like an investment in your currently gimp toon. People always suggest changes that would benefit them the most, it's disgusting.

Just my 2 cents.

Belwaar
10-12-2009, 02:22 PM
These kinds of complaints are ridiculous.

If they lower the level to 15 (Which is random BTW, why not a previous cap level? Or is it just because it fits the whims of the OP?)

A week after the change to 15, someone would say "HEY, I think it should be 12, because blah blah blah"

Suck it up and get to 20, it's hardly a grind, plus anything you pick up along the way that is bound is like an investment in your currently gimp toon. People always suggest changes that would benefit them the most, it's disgusting.

Just my 2 cents.

I'd have to agree with you.

maddmatt70
10-12-2009, 02:30 PM
These kinds of complaints are ridiculous.

If they lower the level to 15 (Which is random BTW, why not a previous cap level? Or is it just because it fits the whims of the OP?)

A week after the change to 15, someone would say "HEY, I think it should be 12, because blah blah blah"

Suck it up and get to 20, it's hardly a grind, plus anything you pick up along the way that is bound is like an investment in your currently gimp toon. People always suggest changes that would benefit them the most, it's disgusting.

Just my 2 cents.

The point is in order to reincarnate an existing obsolete character a player has to run 20+ quests to get from level 17-20 on a character that they just want to reroll now and that journey to 20 is not a fun one. When I level up a lowbie it is fun because I am exploring that character, what they can do, etc. The current xp grind is magnified for old characters because they do not need loot or raid flagging and the old quests give out less xp so old characters have to run more quests invariably. I play DDO to have fun. Shouldn't it be the goal of developers to make our experience playing DDO a fun one?

Minor_Threat
10-12-2009, 02:37 PM
The point is in order to reincarnate an existing obsolete character a player has to run 20+ quests to get from level 17-20 on a character that they just want to reroll now and that journey to 20 is not a fun one. When I level up a lowbie it is fun because I am exploring that character, what they can do, etc. The current xp grind is magnified for old characters because they do not need loot or raid flagging and the old quests give out less xp so old characters have to run more quests invariably. I play DDO to have fun. Shouldn't it be the goal of developers to make our experience playing DDO a fun one?

If your one and only goal is to have fun, why do you need reincarnate at all?

There are very few builds that are unplayable, though playability has a lot to do with the player.

People play games to have fun but if the challenge is taken away, the rewards are meaningless and the fun goes out the window.

Again, just my 2 cents.

Heh, someone neg repped me for this post, thanks! <3 keep em coming.

Strakeln
10-12-2009, 02:39 PM
Really? Is the grind that bad now? I know for last cap all eleven of mine sat for so long as I could not reroll so often for fear of losing a slot...
I think it's a grind because of what we have to do the leveling with, Em.

You can either grind the stuff we've been running for the past year and a half, or you can grind the 6 new quests and 1 raid... which may seem un-grindy, until you realize that running all 6 quest and the raid will get you 3/4 of a llevel or so. So that becomes 7 quests x 5 (3/4 level per pass, 4 levels, rounded) x <your char count here>. In my case, that would be 7x5x8 = 280 runs through every quest in Shavarath to cap my characters (give or take).

If that ain't a grind then I don't know what is.

Obviously, no one really wants to do that, so we opt to use some of the quests that existed before DDO:EU. Which we've already run a ton.

It was a poor decision to release 4 levels with so little new content... a poor decision that was repeatedly brought up by the players.

Belwaar
10-12-2009, 02:41 PM
Personally the only reason I plan on True Reincarnating a toon or two, is because they're fun to play and I like playing them and getting the XP that comes from running with them.

Other than that, I see no point in it. I don't multiclass (well...I have a Ranger w/ 2 Fighter lvls) for the most part, so I really don't see any big reason to do it other than to continue to adventure with that toon and get XP for it.

Dexxaan
10-12-2009, 02:48 PM
Why Level 15?

I mean by your "reasoning" you can do it at level 2!

Level 2 makes for a 36Pt Monster build a lot quicker and we all need a little Easy Button Love right? :rolleyes:

(Just in case :rolleyes: = Much needed Sarcasm)


.

Riggs
10-12-2009, 02:48 PM
The game has changed significantly over the years.

I also have a number of builds that were good at level 14, but level 16 changed things, and level 16s that I really dont want to play in the new power levels of the new content - because once again ac and damage of monsters has gone way up - far more than 4 levels worth of what players get.

Characters that are 16, have been 16 for a year or more, have raid gear, bound items etc - that just deleting after all the grinding is too painful to think about.

But with reincarnation, they can be made differently and still keep 6 months of raid gear say.

But as said - grinding from level 17.1 to level 20 is a LOT of work. The new quests have pathetic xp for the time and difficulty, and most people are running old content and slayers for a week solid to get someone leveled up say. The 540,000 xp from 16 to 20 is a LONG run if you have more than a couple characters. Doing that for a couple characters, that you PLAN to reroll, and do it all over again - is really, really sad and depressing.

One argument is that people shouldnt just be given the easy True res....but here is the thing.

The people with lots of 16s, and say 2 accounts - have sunk a LOT of time, and effort, and love/hate into this game. It is these players that have been paying Turbine all this time to play, and while in some cases Turbine has done a good job of rewarding long time players - in many cases they have not.

Every 2-3 mods the game has changed enough that a build that was very effective at level 10 cap, or 12, or 14/16, is no longer effective. Changing the game so that you HAVE to reroll, or be a gimp forever is cruel.

People have been begging for respecs, full character respecs - for years for that reason. Now we are getting it. Except you have to now grind any old builds through 540,000 xp each just to get the reward of starting over from 1, WITH a xp penalty to make it harder to level up again.

What would make Turbine look great, and make tons of people happy (and make lots of forum trolls mad as always), is to allow any players that have been paying for..say the last year? or so - to be able to get a true res token, maybe ....2-3 per account? or maybe even for every level 16 they had already capped out when Mod 9 dropped.

That would be cool, and nice, and a reward and "Hey thanks for playing all these years, sorry for all the changes that gimped your old human bard, but here is a true res token to make up for it now".

Keeping in mind anyone taking it STILL has to start over at level 1 and go all the way up again, so its not like its just *ding* restart at level 17 go nuts - it is still going to mean a lot of grinding anyway.

So yeah, True res at 16 for long standing players would be a really nice thing.

ROVER
10-12-2009, 02:56 PM
No

Minor_Threat
10-12-2009, 03:00 PM
The game has changed significantly over the years.

I also have a number of builds that were good at level 14, but level 16 changed things, and level 16s that I really dont want to play in the new power levels of the new content - because once again ac and damage of monsters has gone way up - far more than 4 levels worth of what players get.

Characters that are 16, have been 16 for a year or more, have raid gear, bound items etc - that just deleting after all the grinding is too painful to think about.

But with reincarnation, they can be made differently and still keep 6 months of raid gear say.

But as said - grinding from level 17.1 to level 20 is a LOT of work. The new quests have pathetic xp for the time and difficulty, and most people are running old content and slayers for a week solid to get someone leveled up say. The 540,000 xp from 16 to 20 is a LONG run if you have more than a couple characters. Doing that for a couple characters, that you PLAN to reroll, and do it all over again - is really, really sad and depressing.

One argument is that people shouldnt just be given the easy True res....but here is the thing.

The people with lots of 16s, and say 2 accounts - have sunk a LOT of time, and effort, and love/hate into this game. It is these players that have been paying Turbine all this time to play, and while in some cases Turbine has done a good job of rewarding long time players - in many cases they have not.

Every 2-3 mods the game has changed enough that a build that was very effective at level 10 cap, or 12, or 14/16, is no longer effective. Changing the game so that you HAVE to reroll, or be a gimp forever is cruel.

People have been begging for respecs, full character respecs - for years for that reason. Now we are getting it. Except you have to now grind any old builds through 540,000 xp each just to get the reward of starting over from 1, WITH a xp penalty to make it harder to level up again.

What would make Turbine look great, and make tons of people happy (and make lots of forum trolls mad as always), is to allow any players that have been paying for..say the last year? or so - to be able to get a true res token, maybe ....2-3 per account? or maybe even for every level 16 they had already capped out when Mod 9 dropped.

That would be cool, and nice, and a reward and "Hey thanks for playing all these years, sorry for all the changes that gimped your old human bard, but here is a true res token to make up for it now".

Keeping in mind anyone taking it STILL has to start over at level 1 and go all the way up again, so its not like its just *ding* restart at level 17 go nuts - it is still going to mean a lot of grinding anyway.

So yeah, True res at 16 for long standing players would be a really nice thing.

Every MMO changes and has balance issues, plus if you've sunk that much time into the game, the remaining time to cap to 20 is inconsequential.

I love this new DDO mentality, "Add more content so I can complain about how it inconveniences me"

krud
10-12-2009, 03:07 PM
I think it's a grind because of what we have to do the leveling with, Em.

You can either grind the stuff we've been running for the past year and a half, or you can grind the 6 new quests and 1 raid... which may seem un-grindy, until you realize that running all 6 quest and the raid will get you 3/4 of a llevel or so. So that becomes 7 quests x 5 (3/4 level per pass, 4 levels, rounded) x <your char count here>. In my case, that would be 7x5x8 = 280 runs through every quest in Shavarath to cap my characters (give or take).

If that ain't a grind then I don't know what is.

Obviously, no one really wants to do that, so we opt to use some of the quests that existed before DDO:EU. Which we've already run a ton.

It was a poor decision to release 4 levels with so little new content... a poor decision that was repeatedly brought up by the players.
Are they adding no new high level content next mod (when TR is implemented)?

Minor_Threat
10-12-2009, 03:40 PM
Are they adding no new high level content next mod (when TR is implemented)?

Yes, if they had read the notes they'd know that.

But inevitably they will complain that these quests are too hard and a grindfest and that Turbine owes them something. What they really want is one quest, the quest to end all quests.
-----------------------
-=I WANNA BE UBER!=-
-----------------------
A solo only quest that will advance you to level 20 immediately after completion.
Min. Level (1)
Quest Length (Short)
Exp. (Unlimited)

The quest will consist of a pong table, at one end a Devil Warlord, the other end, reserved for you.
http://www.cohesivegraphics.com/images/pong.jpg

It will have lots of menacing voice overs and explosions, a commercial for BRAWNDO THE THIRST MUTILATOR.

If you are able to defeat the devil's pong skills, you will be crowned king of DDO, and will now have the ability to edit your own character however you please, stats and levels and you will not be limited to classes, you will simply type in a class name and you now have access to all feats and the ability to add your own. You will also receive raid loot, the "Staff of Win", a 2 handed staff that has a 99/day clickie of "Complete Dungeon", which will be later updated because of player complaints about it being 2-handed and bound, it will be changed to a 1handed weapon that is bound to account.

Ingame players will now use Chuck Norris jokes to describe you.

Thrudh
10-12-2009, 03:44 PM
The game has changed significantly over the years.

I also have a number of builds that were good at level 14, but level 16 changed things, and level 16s that I really dont want to play in the new power levels of the new content - because once again ac and damage of monsters has gone way up - far more than 4 levels worth of what players get.

Characters that are 16, have been 16 for a year or more, have raid gear, bound items etc - that just deleting after all the grinding is too painful to think about.

But with reincarnation, they can be made differently and still keep 6 months of raid gear say.

But as said - grinding from level 17.1 to level 20 is a LOT of work. The new quests have pathetic xp for the time and difficulty, and most people are running old content and slayers for a week solid to get someone leveled up say. The 540,000 xp from 16 to 20 is a LONG run if you have more than a couple characters. Doing that for a couple characters, that you PLAN to reroll, and do it all over again - is really, really sad and depressing.

One argument is that people shouldnt just be given the easy True res....but here is the thing.

The people with lots of 16s, and say 2 accounts - have sunk a LOT of time, and effort, and love/hate into this game. It is these players that have been paying Turbine all this time to play, and while in some cases Turbine has done a good job of rewarding long time players - in many cases they have not.

Every 2-3 mods the game has changed enough that a build that was very effective at level 10 cap, or 12, or 14/16, is no longer effective. Changing the game so that you HAVE to reroll, or be a gimp forever is cruel.

People have been begging for respecs, full character respecs - for years for that reason. Now we are getting it. Except you have to now grind any old builds through 540,000 xp each just to get the reward of starting over from 1, WITH a xp penalty to make it harder to level up again.

What would make Turbine look great, and make tons of people happy (and make lots of forum trolls mad as always), is to allow any players that have been paying for..say the last year? or so - to be able to get a true res token, maybe ....2-3 per account? or maybe even for every level 16 they had already capped out when Mod 9 dropped.

That would be cool, and nice, and a reward and "Hey thanks for playing all these years, sorry for all the changes that gimped your old human bard, but here is a true res token to make up for it now".

Keeping in mind anyone taking it STILL has to start over at level 1 and go all the way up again, so its not like its just *ding* restart at level 17 go nuts - it is still going to mean a lot of grinding anyway.

So yeah, True res at 16 for long standing players would be a really nice thing.

Agreed... as a one time thing...

Strakeln
10-12-2009, 04:30 PM
Are they adding no new high level content next mod (when TR is implemented)?
Sure they are. Are you trying to make the point that another small handful of quests will fix the problem I detailed? Because it won't.... think about it. Add another 7 quests, and the repeat count I showed you (280) becomes half that... (140). Does 140 runs through both Shavarath and the newest area sound non-grindy to you?

Sure doesn't to me.

Strakeln
10-12-2009, 04:33 PM
Yes, if they had read the notes they'd know that.
I read the notes. It appears that you had problems with division. Too difficult for you to divide by two, eh?

I guess that really is asking too much of you.

Belwaar
10-12-2009, 04:34 PM
Sure they are. Are you trying to make the point that another small handful of quests will fix the problem I detailed? Because it won't.... think about it. Add another 7 quests, and the repeat count I showed you (280) becomes half that... (140). Does 140 runs through both Shavarath and the newest area sound non-grindy to you?

Sure doesn't to me.

Surely you didn't burn out all the Vale Quests, & Reaver's Refuge already...did you? I'm still getting great XP from both sets of quests...but, I did boycott RR once they came out b/c I didn't want to have the problem that some seem to have.

TFPAQ
10-12-2009, 04:38 PM
Bring back the Birthday Cake Djinn and make respecc'n an option for each char. Simple.

I don't care what level you are, etc ... One time deal (or at least for the year).

If you need a complete respec more than once per year, then either you or Turbine has messed up pretty badly... and you should be ready to reincarnate by then.

Minor_Threat
10-12-2009, 04:39 PM
I read the notes. It appears that you had problems with division. Too difficult for you to divide by two, eh?

I guess that really is asking too much of you.

wow.

just wow.

you fail to mention the new quests but it's my fault because i can't divide.

you sir, have PWN'd me online.

Hokonoso
10-12-2009, 05:32 PM
i agree, i have toons that are dead and have been for 5+ mods because of poor choices, however they have also been doing quests (especially shroud) a billion times for the sake of making money and are lvl 17 because of this. i will never lvl these to 20 no matter what, yet they are completely gimp so unless true rez lowers it lvl range, it just simply wont happen for all my gimp toons which are too useful in shroud to delete and too gimp to gain those last 3 levels.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-12-2009, 06:05 PM
First there is a ton of XP out there for characters in the 17 to 20 level range that virtually everyone has the ability to get in relatively short order. Saying "you should lower the level on TR because I don't want to level to 20 on a "bad" or "outdated" toon" just doesn't fly with me. You dropped 60 to 100 plus hours into the character to get them to 17 telling me that 10 15 20 more hours is too much; please.

those hours were put in when the char was fun to play. If it is no longer fun, the reason to want to reincarnate, then the 3 additional levels, the longest levels of the game, will be work, not fun. A game is supposed to be fun, and while a challenge, not work.

bobbryan2
10-12-2009, 06:07 PM
Every MMO changes and has balance issues, plus if you've sunk that much time into the game, the remaining time to cap to 20 is inconsequential.

I love this new DDO mentality, "Add more content so I can complain about how it inconveniences me"

Never heard those points before. Thanks for rehashing them again...

krud
10-12-2009, 06:32 PM
Sure they are. Are you trying to make the point that another small handful of quests will fix the problem I detailed? Because it won't.... think about it. Add another 7 quests, and the repeat count I showed you (280) becomes half that... (140). Does 140 runs through both Shavarath and the newest area sound non-grindy to you?

Sure doesn't to me.
Getting anything for 8 characters is going to be a grind. How many shroud runs is that to get them all just one tier 3 item? non-grindy?

Also, I think your numbers are off. Your old characters are parked at level 16, are they not? One xp and they are already level 17. They only need to play thru level 17, 18 and 19. Once they hit 20 you can stop, so no need to count the xp from there to cap. It's only 3 levels + 2xp that you must play thru. Now how does that work out? Let's get some xp numbers from the actual quests next time to really see how much is required (also consider the new explorer areas).

Strakeln
10-12-2009, 06:45 PM
Surely you didn't burn out all the Vale Quests, & Reaver's Refuge already...did you? I'm still getting great XP from both sets of quests...but, I did boycott RR once they came out b/c I didn't want to have the problem that some seem to have.

See previous post(s)


You can either grind the stuff we've been running for the past year and a half, or you can grind the 6 new quests and 1 raid...

Strakeln
10-12-2009, 06:46 PM
wow.

just wow.

you fail to mention the new quests but it's my fault because i can't divide.

you sir, have PWN'd me online.

See original context of that discussion.

I cannot pwn those who pwn themselves.

Sambvca
10-12-2009, 07:01 PM
All this grinding will stop when Turbine adds +1 Level Tomes to the store.
Ok, it might be potions of 2,000,000 xp.

Strakeln
10-12-2009, 07:06 PM
Getting anything for 8 characters is going to be a grind. How many shroud runs is that to get them all just one tier 3 item? non-grindy?

Can you see the difference between the two grind types? One (the Shroud) is optional, it's something you choose to do. The other (a need to respec outdated characters) has been forced into the position of choosing one of the three:

1) Keep the character that has been outdated/gimped/whatever (in the eyes of the beholder)

2) Delete the character and lose all progress/items/etc

3) Grind the outdated/gimped/whatever (iteotb) to 20th to respec and salvage progress/items/etc

They (generally referring to veterans) weren't put into this position by choice, the rules and tools changed underneath their feet. Many have felt for a long time now that they are due a free full respec due to the massive changes that have occurred over the past three years.

Personally, I think that characters that existed prior to DDO:EU should have a free full respec (true reincarnation), regardless of what level they are, with XP, favor, and tome retention.

Some jaws may drop at my last statement, but it's not so absurd. In fact, mark my words: Turbine will do similar things in the future when the nerf stick comes out to play big.

krud
10-12-2009, 07:12 PM
Can you see the difference between the two grind types? One (the Shroud) is optional, it's something you choose to do. The other (a need to respec outdated characters) has been forced into the position of choosing one of the three:

1) Keep the character that has been outdated/gimped/whatever (in the eyes of the beholder)

2) Delete the character and lose all progress/items/etc

3) Grind the outdated/gimped/whatever (iteotb) to 20th to respec and salvage progress/items/etc

They (generally referring to veterans) weren't put into this position by choice, the rules and tools changed underneath their feet. Many have felt for a long time now that they are due a free full respec due to the massive changes that have occurred over the past three years.

Personally, I think that characters that existed prior to DDO:EU should have a free full respec (true reincarnation), regardless of what level they are, with XP, favor, and tome retention.

Some jaws may drop at my last statement, but it's not so absurd. In fact, mark my words: Turbine will do similar things in the future when the nerf stick comes out to play big.
If you didn't do the shroud grind on them, or any other optional grind for that matter, then why not just reroll? If you haven't done the loot grind, then there should still be plenty of xp outside shavarath still available for them. There is really very little must have grindable gear below the shroud (a few titan pieces perhaps). If they actually do have plenty of salvageable bound loot, then you must have done plenty of grinding with them already. What's a little more?

btw - i strongly disagree that any of the changes in the game were so massive as to make any character unplayable, or unfun even. This gives you the option to return the fun, and forego one of the two major grinds in the game (the loot grind).

redraider
10-12-2009, 08:47 PM
Wow. A simple request (ok, maybe I was pleading too) to the Devs to let us respec (a process being tested and the devs are soliciting comments) our toons at 15 or 17 instead of 20 gets all these people saying quit whining? It wasn't a whine. It was a plead!

Dev's. Let those of us who want to do the True Rez respec on out lvl 17 toons please do so initially. I liked the "buy a True Rez thing from the store, do it in week one, lvl 15 Minimum" idea. It doesn't hurt everyone else's toons and I already have two at 20 and 2 more at 18 that I DON'T want to True Rez.

I shouldn't have to grind to 20 to get my others a quick True Rez when the mod comes out.

redraider
10-12-2009, 08:49 PM
If you didn't do the shroud grind on them, or any other optional grind for that matter, then why not just reroll? If you haven't done the loot grind, then there should still be plenty of xp outside shavarath still available for them. There is really very little must have grindable gear below the shroud (a few titan pieces perhaps). If they actually do have plenty of salvageable bound loot, then you must have done plenty of grinding with them already. What's a little more?

btw - i strongly disagree that any of the changes in the game were so massive as to make any character unplayable, or unfun even. This gives you the option to return the fun, and forego one of the two major grinds in the game (the loot grind).

Krud and Minor Threat - Why do you care if I True Rez a few toons that are currently 17 when the mod comes out? What the heck does it matter to you? It's my money, my time, and you're not entitled to either. Turbine and my wife get it all...


All this grinding will stop when Turbine adds +1 Level Tomes to the store.
Ok, it might be potions of 2,000,000 xp.

Now let hope that never happens...

Oreg
10-12-2009, 09:00 PM
I have 2 characters sitting at 16 that I have no desire to level to 20. I would happily pay to get a True Res on both and would even run to an explorer point to level them to 17 if that was the minimum. So....

/signed at allowing a True Res at level 17.

krud
10-12-2009, 09:05 PM
Krud and Minor Threat - Why do you care if I True Rez a few toons that are currently 17 when the mod comes out? What the heck does it matter to you? It's my money, my time, and you're not entitled to either. Turbine and my wife get it all...



Now let hope that never happens...
The lame catch all phrase used to justify everything and anything in the game. :rolleyes:

bobbryan2
10-12-2009, 09:16 PM
I have 2 characters sitting at 16 that I have no desire to level to 20. I would happily pay to get a True Res on both and would even run to an explorer point to level them to 17 if that was the minimum. So....

/signed at allowing a True Res at level 17.

Not saying it's perfect... but you could lesser reincarnate and then level up the rest of the way to true reincarnate.

It's a little silly to reincarnate just to reincarnate again, but it's something you could conceivably do. Wouldn't fix level distribution, but it would fix stat point problems.

redraider
10-12-2009, 09:29 PM
The lame catch all phrase used to justify everything and anything in the game. :rolleyes:

Troll elsewhere Krud. Your bad attitude will not bring me down. If your gaming time is not too valuabel to waste lvling to 20 a toon you will just then True Rez, I feel sorry for you.

Dev's, please take care of all of us who value our time together ;)

krud
10-12-2009, 11:38 PM
Troll elsewhere Krud. Your bad attitude will not bring me down. If your gaming time is not too valuabel to waste lvling to 20 a toon you will just then True Rez, I feel sorry for you.

Dev's, please take care of all of us who value our time together ;)
Why is it a waste if he's gonna be true reincarnated? You just saved the time it would take to grind out much of his bound loot (vs rerolling), plus you can save a bunch of tomes he'll most likely get along the way.

Minor_Threat
10-13-2009, 12:20 AM
See original context of that discussion.

I cannot pwn those who pwn themselves.

You're so clever, your wit astounds me. I don't even understand what you're saying to me so I will post something ridiculous.
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/funny-pictures-pirate-cat.jpg

Now watch as I respond to 2 separate posts in...get this...1 post. it's magic.


Krud and Minor Threat - Why do you care if I True Rez a few toons that are currently 17 when the mod comes out? What the heck does it matter to you? It's my money, my time, and you're not entitled to either. Turbine and my wife get it all...


Now let hope that never happens...
In the scheme of things I don't really care, it's just that this is a dumb request to benefit you. First, the fact that you picked 15, a completely random level in the scheme of things, it really might as well be level 1, and you picked it because it would benefit you directly.

Strakeln
10-13-2009, 12:40 AM
If you didn't do the shroud grind on them, or any other optional grind for that matter, then why not just reroll? If you haven't done the loot grind, then there should still be plenty of xp outside shavarath still available for them. There is really very little must have grindable gear below the shroud (a few titan pieces perhaps). If they actually do have plenty of salvageable bound loot, then you must have done plenty of grinding with them already. What's a little more?
You seem to be of the opinion that grind is good. Not all share that opinion. In fact, many came to this game specifically because it advertised a lack of a grind. What's a little more? Obviously, it depends on the individual's perception.


btw - i strongly disagree that any of the changes in the game were so massive as to make any character unplayable, or unfun even. This gives you the option to return the fun, and forego one of the two major grinds in the game (the loot grind).
That is your opinion, and I'm glad you feel that way. Surely by now you must understand that not everyone will share the same feelings. Changes you may feel are just fine will make someone else recoil in horror.

As I understand it, it is common practice in other MMOs to provide free/low-entry-cost respecs to affected characters when they make major changes. I'm not sure why you find this to be such a foreign idea... it's nothing new, in fact, it's arguably "how it's done".

FluffyCalico
10-13-2009, 12:45 AM
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/funny-pictures-pirate-cat.jpg

.

I don't like the idea of having to level up as something else invalidating half your raid gear and loosing all your tomes. Just not worth it.

Strakeln
10-13-2009, 12:45 AM
I don't even understand what you're saying to me
Yes, I know. That has been the problem all along.

It's okay, I understand. Reading is hard.

Minor_Threat
10-13-2009, 01:23 AM
Yes, I know. That has been the problem all along.

It's okay, I understand. Reading is hard.
:rolleyes:
Yes, the problem.

krud
10-13-2009, 07:22 AM
You seem to be of the opinion that grind is good. Not all share that opinion. In fact, many came to this game specifically because it advertised a lack of a grind. What's a little more? Obviously, it depends on the individual's perception.

I can't stand grinding, especially loot grinding. I just don't understand how someone who runs the same few quests over and over and over again to acquire enough bound raid loot to be worth saving would then turn around and complain that they need to do the same in a few other quests in order to TR. Doesn't matter if it's "optional" or not. You are still doing the same damn thing over and over again. I guess I see TR cup as half full already. You are saving that character way more time by doing the XP grind, instead of the loot grind, if no TR option were available, and you were forced to reroll.

Strakeln
10-13-2009, 08:10 AM
I just don't understand how someone who runs the same few quests over and over and over again to acquire enough bound raid loot to be worth saving would then turn around and complain that they need to do the same in a few other quests in order to TR.
Like many things in this world, you don't have to understand it. What is important is that you recognize - and respect - that it doesn't affect your gaming experience.

Why would you be against an option to improve someone's gaming experience in their eyes, if it won't affect you? An example from another thread:

I hate running around places to get to somewhere - Meridia, being situated in the Vale, is a good example. But some people really get their jollies from wide open spaces and running 25 minutes to get somewhere. So long as a teleport option is provided for me, then I really don't care how long it takes to get to Meridia.

Strakeln
10-13-2009, 08:10 AM
:rolleyes:
Yes, the problem.
See, we can agree on something!

redraider
10-13-2009, 08:11 AM
I can't stand grinding, especially loot grinding. I just don't understand how someone who runs the same few quests over and over and over again to acquire enough bound raid loot to be worth saving would then turn around and complain that they need to do the same in a few other quests in order to TR. Doesn't matter if it's "optional" or not. You are still doing the same damn thing over and over again. I guess I see TR cup as half full already. You are saving that character way more time by doing the XP grind, instead of the loot grind, if no TR option were available, and you were forced to reroll.

I guess my question is: Why can't we, the long time DDO gaming community have a great feature like True Rez without having to grind our 17's to 20? Just that simple. I picked 15 because it would eliminate the peeps who would True Rez, get to lvl 2, True rez again, etc. Level 15 was not an artibritrary number. I picked 15 because the last two caps were 14 and 16 and many of us have toon either still capped at 14 (never played once the Vale and Monk were added) or at 16/17. 15 seemed the most fair and 15 would accomplish what the Dev's want (make you have to REALLY WANT IT to use the True rez feature and you can't just back to back it easily) while still allowing the long time DDO VIP's to avoid the grind to 20. I have no intention of double True Rezing for a few stat points. I want to True rez to save my two Min2 daxes and Tier 3 air guard Gogs while saving my characters name and personality. I don't enjoy most grinding. At least the shroud was, and still is, a really fun quest that can be done in an hour.

Does this benefit me? Hell yes! Does it benefit a lot more of the DDO community than me? Based on the posts here, sounds like it does.

There is simply no reason not to allow this that I can think of.

BlackSteel
10-13-2009, 10:04 AM
how long does it take to get 17-20?

ransack monastery/litany/rainbow then once on H/E and you're practically done

all the normal runs can be soloed by quite a few builds, and those that cant shouldnt have a hard time getting a pick up for any of those 3.

getting from 17-20 is alot easier than some of the mid level hurdles. frankly I'm fine with it being left at 20; a few days more of a grind is not going to make or break the feature.

Strakeln
10-13-2009, 10:28 AM
getting from 17-20 is alot easier than some of the mid level hurdles. frankly I'm fine with it being left at 20; a few days more of a grind is not going to make or break the feature.
Would enabling TR at <pick a level besides 20> make or break this feature for you?

Of course not.

Then why oppose it?

Belwaar
10-13-2009, 11:04 AM
It's sad that some of you claim to love playing this game, but call getting from level 1 to 20 a grind. I've never seen it that way and although I haven't gotten a single character to 20 yet (I would have, had we completed ToD last night :( ), I still haven't played every quest in the game.

The only "grinds" I see in the game, is Vale Quests/Shroud, to get the ingredients for GS weapons/items and the Amrath, to get the new sets and ingredients for the boots.

If you really feel this game is a grind, why are you playing? :rolleyes:

Getting back to the topic...I hope they keep it at level 20, because I see True Reincarnation (why are we calling it True Rez?) as a way to further increase the "uber-ness" of a particular character slot.

You get to keep all your gear (sweet!), but you lose your tomes (not that big of a deal, seeing that most of us have plenty of them in the bank...or so some brag). For all the VIPs, you're given Turbine Points (let's not get into whether or not you've got them all or not...I'm getting mine), so go buy some tomes if you don't feel like getting anymore. Well, some may argue that you don't have the TP or you don't want to spend real money to get some, so then why not go buy from the Auction House? Apparently everyone has millions of plat saved up, so use that. What are you saving it for? I don't think I have one character with over 150k plat, because I'm constantly buying pots, scolls, twink weapons for lowbies, etc.

You guys are getting really fired up about something that isn't exactly as you want it. News flash, things are NEVER exactly what you want them to be. It's a game! Calm down, and just enjoy it. If you're really stressing out because you're losing a tome or two, maybe you should take a step back and calm down a sec.

The_Phenx
10-13-2009, 11:36 AM
They just need to add level re-spec to greater...so its a re-roll without the grind.

Let true res do all the other fun stuff for power gamers.

krud
10-13-2009, 11:40 AM
Like many things in this world, you don't have to understand it. What is important is that you recognize - and respect - that it doesn't affect your gaming experience.

Why would you be against an option to improve someone's gaming experience in their eyes, if it won't affect you? An example from another thread:

I hate running around places to get to somewhere - Meridia, being situated in the Vale, is a good example. But some people really get their jollies from wide open spaces and running 25 minutes to get somewhere. So long as a teleport option is provided for me, then I really don't care how long it takes to get to Meridia.
As long as I get an equally easy way to acquire bound raid loot that I so despise grinding for. ;) The XP grind is nothing compared to that.

Belwaar
10-13-2009, 11:54 AM
They just need to add level re-spec to greater...so its a re-roll without the grind.

Let true res do all the other fun stuff for power gamers.

I agree with this 100%, and hopefully they'll implement it. I think you'll see a lot LESS *****in'!

Strakeln
10-13-2009, 11:54 AM
They just need to add level re-spec to greater...so its a re-roll without the grind.

Let true res do all the other fun stuff for power gamers.
You're probably onto something here. The only valid reason to oppose TR prior to level 20 is due to the whole "adding two build points" shtick.

Add a level between Greater and True that allows for full respec without the additional benefits (2 build points, past life feats). Seems like a fair way to address the concerns brought up here.

Belwaar
10-13-2009, 12:01 PM
My suggestion:

Lesser: reconfigure skill points, enhancements, etc.
Greater: convert from 28 to 32 (if applicable), reconfigure alignment, levels, skills, enhancements, etc.
True: Keep as is.

krud
10-13-2009, 12:11 PM
My suggestion:

Lesser: reconfigure skill points, enhancements, etc.
Greater: convert from 28 to 32 (if applicable), reconfigure alignment, levels, skills, enhancements, etc.
True: Keep as is.
Makes TR kinda lame in comparison, especially since you lose tomes, and have to relevel.

BlackSteel
10-13-2009, 12:59 PM
You're probably onto something here. The only valid reason to oppose TR prior to level 20 is due to the whole "adding two build points" shtick.

Add a level between Greater and True that allows for full respec without the additional benefits (2 build points, past life feats). Seems like a fair way to address the concerns brought up here.

agreed, I just feel that for anyone wanting the 36pters, that they SHOULD have to hit cap to enable it.

having to hit 20 to fix a mistake on the other hand is pretty lame.

redraider
10-13-2009, 01:16 PM
It's sad that some of you claim to love playing this game, but call getting from level 1 to 20 a grind. I've never seen it that way and although I haven't gotten a single character to 20 yet (I would have, had we completed ToD last night :( ), I still haven't played every quest in the game.

The only "grinds" I see in the game, is Vale Quests/Shroud, to get the ingredients for GS weapons/items and the Amrath, to get the new sets and ingredients for the boots.

If you really feel this game is a grind, why are you playing? :rolleyes:

Getting back to the topic...I hope they keep it at level 20, because I see True Reincarnation (why are we calling it True Rez?) as a way to further increase the "uber-ness" of a particular character slot.

You get to keep all your gear (sweet!), but you lose your tomes (not that big of a deal, seeing that most of us have plenty of them in the bank...or so some brag). For all the VIPs, you're given Turbine Points (let's not get into whether or not you've got them all or not...I'm getting mine), so go buy some tomes if you don't feel like getting anymore. Well, some may argue that you don't have the TP or you don't want to spend real money to get some, so then why not go buy from the Auction House? Apparently everyone has millions of plat saved up, so use that. What are you saving it for? I don't think I have one character with over 150k plat, because I'm constantly buying pots, scolls, twink weapons for lowbies, etc.

You guys are getting really fired up about something that isn't exactly as you want it. News flash, things are NEVER exactly what you want them to be. It's a game! Calm down, and just enjoy it. If you're really stressing out because you're losing a tome or two, maybe you should take a step back and calm down a sec.

We do get it. We do love this game. We don't like to grind for no reason. Leveling from 17 to 20 on a toon that will then reincarnate is definately a grind. Full stop.

Why is it an issue to allow it? Because you like to debate? Give it a rest. It's a game. We are providing feedback to the devs as requested.

bobbryan2
10-13-2009, 01:19 PM
Makes TR kinda lame in comparison, especially since you lose tomes, and have to relevel.

No it doesn't.

Strakeln
10-13-2009, 01:31 PM
agreed, I just feel that for anyone wanting the 36pters, that they SHOULD have to hit cap to enable it.Yeah! That's like my shroud example... it's an optional grind to make your character more powerful, as opposed to...


having to hit 20 to fix a mistake on the other hand is pretty lame.
...fixing a mistake/adapting to a change.

I hope Turbine is listening.

krud
10-13-2009, 02:04 PM
No it doesn't.
what do you get from a TR that you wouldn't get from the proposed GR?

TR
+ 2 build points (or +4)
+ a so-so past life feat
- need to level to 20 (twice)
- loss of xp and favor
- loss of tomes

GR
+ can do at any level
+ no loss of xp or favor
+ no loss of tomes
- ???

Two build points (or 4) that can't be used to get any stat past maximum anyway. You have to reaquire your +3 and above tomes. You have to start over with the xp grind (which seems to be the major stumbling block for everyone else in this thread). In comparison, TR does look pretty lame after all that. Oh, I forgot the e-pen size enlargement :rolleyes:.

Strakeln
10-13-2009, 02:12 PM
My suggestion:

Lesser: reconfigure skill points, enhancements, etc.
Greater: convert from 28 to 32 (if applicable), reconfigure alignment, levels, skills, enhancements, etc.
True: Keep as is.


Makes TR kinda lame in comparison, especially since you lose tomes, and have to relevel.
I wouldn't consider it "kinda lame". It's a way to get two extra build points and open up the whole past life thing.

Seriously, the way it is now is just another example of why dealing with Turbine is like dealing with the devil. My classic example: you ask the devil to make it so the most beautiful woman in the world loves you unconditionally, and *poof* your mom just got incredibly hot.

We ask for a way to address the way changes to the game has affected existing characters. But we forgot to specify that that was all we were looking for, so Turbine added the build points and associated "go all the way through the game 3x" grind.

But it's not too late! They can still have the best of both worlds... either upgrade Greater Reincarnation, or add a tier between greater and true!

Belwaar
10-13-2009, 02:20 PM
Haha Strake, you had me LOLing on that. :p

Totally agree with you. I'm indifferent to it all, but think that we all have come to some sort of agreement on what we'd like to be implemented.

krud
10-13-2009, 02:28 PM
But it's not too late! They can still have the best of both worlds... either upgrade Greater Reincarnation, or add a tier between greater and true!
I would make the new tier just like TR except with no lvl20 req, and no bonus points or past life feats. Oh, and can't forget about the e-pen size enlargement. That would not happen either.

Belwaar
10-13-2009, 02:37 PM
I would make the new tier just like TR except with no lvl20 req, and no bonus points or past life feats. Oh, and can't forget about the e-pen size enlargement. That would not happen either.

That's what we've pretty much said. TR gives the additional stuff, where as GR is an "oops, i f'd up here".

krud
10-13-2009, 02:41 PM
That's what we've pretty much said. TR gives the additional stuff, where as GR is an "oops, i f'd up here".
not as you laid it out. Your gr would have returned you at your former level, with all gear, favor and tomes. That's a big difference over a TR minus the bonuses.

Belwaar
10-13-2009, 02:49 PM
not as you laid it out. Your gr would have returned you at your former level, with all gear, favor and tomes. That's a big difference over a TR minus the bonuses.

Huh? I'm going to tell myself you didn't read what I posted earlier...:confused:

That's what GR is supposed to do..

Currently it converts your 28pt to a 32 pt and you have to level in the same way you did, but you keep tomes, favor, xp, etc.

I proposed keeping it the way it was, but give you the option of changing levels how you see fit and changing alignment. Basically fixing any "mistakes" you might have made during the building process...

Strakeln
10-13-2009, 03:03 PM
<snip> but think that we all have come to some sort of agreement on what we'd like to be implemented.
Yeah, I think that is a pretty good compromise. I don't know who to credit, as I've seen it suggested all over the place by many people, so whoever wants the credit can take it, I guess.

krud
10-13-2009, 03:05 PM
Huh? I'm going to tell myself you didn't read what I posted earlier...:confused:

That's what GR is supposed to do..

Currently it converts your 28pt to a 32 pt and you have to level in the same way you did, but you keep tomes, favor, xp, etc.

I proposed keeping it the way it was, but give you the option of changing levels how you see fit and changing alignment. Basically fixing any "mistakes" you might have made during the building process...
since you didn't mention the releveling change to GR in your post, I assumed you just wanted to add the ability to change levels to the existing GR, which is as follows:
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2469084&postcount=1

When you greater reincarnate, your character will be placed on an airship to Stormreach at level 1 with no equipment. Speak with the NPC on the boat, who will take you through the remainder of your reincarnation process granting you the XP and reassigning your skills/feats/etc until you've reached the level you were before you greater reincarnated.

A TR makes you start at level 1 and relevel all over again, without tomes, xp or favor. If the intermediate TR were like that, minus the lvl20 req, and bonuses, it would be a big difference over what you proposed. What you created would essentially give someone the ability to continually respec to cap, with absolutely no downside.

krud
10-13-2009, 03:25 PM
To clear up confusion here is what i proposed (actually someone else already mentioned this before)
lesser R - as is
Greater R - as is
new R - as TR minus lvl20 req, no bonus pt or feats
True R - as is

redraider
10-13-2009, 04:12 PM
i Would Make The New Tier Just Like Tr Except With No Lvl20 Req, And No Bonus Points Or Past Life Feats. Oh, And Can't Forget About The E-pen Size Enlargement. That Would Not Happen Either.


Yes!!!!!!!!!!!

I could care less about the 2 points. I am interested in the Past Life just cause it's kinda cool, but give me the ability to start over right from where I'm at (lvl 17) and keep all my gear? That's a win!

So we are all agreed?

And for the record Strakeln, the most beautiful women in the world thing just cracked me up! +1 rep for a guy who has way too much already.

Belwaar
10-13-2009, 04:18 PM
To clear up confusion here is what i proposed (actually someone else already mentioned this before)
lesser R - as is
Greater R - as is
new R - as TR minus lvl20 req, no bonus pt or feats
True R - as is

I was merely combining GR and the "new" R. The only difference between LR and GR is the conversion of 28 to 32 pts.

Why not have GF be TR minus the pts/feats/etc like you're saying (like I said as well) and keep it simple with 3 options. If you make things overly complicated someone will mess up and then complain about it.

Right now, you can't change lvls on GR, and with what I'm saying, you can, you just don't get the benefit of an extra feat and 2 pts.

Anyways, this horse has been beat to death...more than 1000000 times, so I'm jumpin off this topic.

Strakeln
10-13-2009, 04:30 PM
To clear up confusion here is what i proposed (actually someone else already mentioned this before)
lesser R - as is
Greater R - as is
new R - as TR minus lvl20 req, no bonus pt or feats
True R - as is
I'm down with this. Someone call up J.C. (Jim Crowley, not Jesus!) and make it happen.


I could care less about the 2 points. I am interested in the Past Life just cause it's kinda cool, but give me the ability to start over right from where I'm at (lvl 17) and keep all my gear? That's a win!A win for sure!


And for the record Strakeln, the most beautiful women in the world thing just cracked me up! +1 rep for a guy who has way too much already./snicker

Turbine neg-repped me on a deleted thread for over 100 today, so thanks for helping me fight the man! :D


I was merely combining GR and the "new" R. The only difference between LR and GR is the conversion of 28 to 32 pts.

Why not have GF be TR minus the pts/feats/etc like you're saying (like I said as well) and keep it simple with 3 options. If you make things overly complicated someone will mess up and then complain about it.
I'm okay with this option too. I just want the ability to fix broken characters, without 20+ levels of grinding to do so.

krud
10-13-2009, 04:47 PM
Right now, you can't change lvls on GR, and with what I'm saying, you can, you just don't get the benefit of an extra feat and 2 pts.


Well, it was you, in fact, that came up with the idea, lol. (doh! for me)
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2479600&postcount=33

you were trying to combine it with GR, while I was trying to make it an offshoot of TR.

Belwaar
10-14-2009, 10:04 AM
well, It Was You, In Fact, That Came Up With The Idea, Lol. (doh! For Me)
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2479600&postcount=33

You Were Trying To Combine It With Gr, While I Was Trying To Make It An Offshoot Of Tr.

:d